Question about the Reformation

MarysSon said:

If you had read the posts - you would have seen where I talked about this historical implications of "Roman Catholic Church."
The name arose during Henry VIII's reign to differentiate the "Catholic" Church of England and the Catholic Church in Rome.
There are no "other" Catholic Churches - there is only ONE.

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Hello dogma, my old friend.

No

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they can't. You can give the dates and the names of the founder of each Protestant sect. The roots of YOUR sect only go back as far as Martin Luther - and even that is not "unbroken" . . .

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Well that's simply not true. The Lutheran churches can trace their history 500 years to the Reformation, then through the Medieval Catholic Church, then to the early Western Church, and so on through to the Apostles. And even though these churches are grouped together under the name of Lutheran, Martin Luther was by no means alone in beginning the Reformation or in codifying and clarifying the biblical doctrines contained in the Book of Concord. The name "Lutheran" was originally a derogatory term used by Roman Catholics, but over time it stuck. In continental Europe, these churches are known as Evangelical, in the original sense of the word.

If you believe that the Catholic Church did NOT start with Jesus - then give me the name of the man who DID start it and the year.

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The Roman Catholic Church is one branch of many descendants of the Western Church.

The Lutheran Church was around on the day of Pentecost??
Now THAT'S quite a claim. Care to trace the unbroken line of Apostolic succession??

Claiming something are proving it are two very different things . . .

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There are many churches in the world which purport to have maintained Apostolic Succession which also teach false doctrine, who allow scripturally unqualified ordinations and even allow ordination of those who deny key Christian doctrines, such as the virgin birth and the resurrection.

There are other churches which maintain Apostolic Succession not through human means but by teaching and confessing the same doctrines as did the Apostles.

Which of these groups is truly Apostolic?

True Apostolic Succession has always been about the Word of God rather than the hands of men. For Lutherans it's not about Apostolic Succession but whether or not the true Word is preached and the Sacraments properly administered. Even with that stipulation, we recognize that there are true Christians even in heterodox churches.

Then just give me a few of the "changes".
How about THREE?? Surely, you can name three . . .

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1) The doctrine of justification by faith alone, as taught in scripture, especially by St Paul, which had existed in the church since the earliest days, and which had formerly been tolerated in the Roman Church, was officially anathematized.

2) The canon of scripture was officially established, including the apocrypha, which had not been considered canonical prior to that point.

3) The Julian Calendar was rejected in favor of the Gregorian Calendar.

I await your inevitable refutations with bated breath.

Albion said:

It became common at about that time, but the name of the church even today, the legal name, includes "Roman," and it was common to refer to the Vatican's church as the "Church of Rome" even before Luther.

Because it refers to itself today as the "Roman Catholic Church," there would seem to be little reason for getting upset over anyone else using that term. But most of all, there has to be a way to distinguish the Roman Catholic Church from all the other Catholic churches without denigrating these by using a bunch of modifiers.

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I'm not upset - I'm just dealing with the facts.

The official title of the Church is NOT, "The Roman Catholic Church."
To insist that this is the name is based on ignorance of the fact that there are TWENTY Rites that make up the Church. The Latin or "Roman" Rite is only ONE of them. Some of the others that comprise the Catholic Church are the Melkite Rite, the Coptic Rite, the Ruthenian Rite, the Byzantine Rite, etc.

To insist that the Church is called "The Roman Catholic Church" is an ignorant statement.

Albion said:

Already named more than three.

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Can you point me to the post, then?
Just tell me where to find three doctrines you listed that the Catholic Church "changed" at the Council of Trent.

YOU said that the list of the changes at Trent was "too long" to post.
Just give me THREE of them.

It could be argued that the Holy Spirit was with one particular group in the reformation but not the reformation or Christendom as a whole. The Holy Spirit would then be guilty of tearing up Christ's Church and splitting it into competing denominations. The reformation as a whole, the disunity and lack of communion does not reflect what we see in the New Testament or early Church regarding the church. For the early Church there was a real emphasis on communion in that Churches recognised each other and affirmed each other's Orthodoxy. It was not, as the reformation came to represent, a fleeting association with Churches completely autonomous yet all being united in an invisible way on the basis of adherence to some small core principles (the so called invisible Church idea).

I believe the Holy Spirit remained with neither the Catholic nor Protestant Churches primarily but with the Orthodox in that despite all the problems the Orthodox faced they remained mostly united whereas the western Church fractured into disharmony. If the Holy Spirit were with any of the prominent reformers that would be a decisive blow to any Orthodox claims to be the true Church. I do think that God was part of the reformation in someway. We see how the Catholic Church reformed itself against the claims of Protestants which I think has ultimately helped the Roman Catholic Church as a whole.

MarysSon said:

The official title of the Church is NOT, "The Roman Catholic Church."
To insist that this is the name is based on ignorance of the fact that there are TWENTY Rites that make up the Church. .

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Oh no. That isn't what I was talking about.

and by the way, I addressed this matter of other Catholic churches earlier, so you might want to educate yourself by taking another look there.

As for the "already named more than three" post, I was saying that I already named more than three changes for you a few posts back, and none was about Trent. You meant to address your challenge to Tangible.

On the term Roman Catholic Church: There are a number of churches in communion with the Pope. The RCC is the biggest, but there are various Eastern churches as well. Catholic refers to all of them. RCC to the specific church.

The Presbyterian Church and several others have a formal agreement with the RCC on mutual recognition of baptism. On the signatures at the end, the Catholic partner identifies itself as the Roman Catholic Church. Presumably all the Catholic churches would recognize our baptism, but the formal agreement is between the Presbyterian Church USA and the council of bishops of the RCC in the US.

In many cases, of course the term Catholic is appropriate, e.g. in discussing the Catholic tradition or theology in general. But it was specifically the RCC that broke away from Luther.

On denying the presence of the Holy Spirit in churches or traditions with which you disagree, I suggest looking again at Mat 12:31. The sin against the Holy Spirit wasn't rejection of Jesus. 12:32 says that can be forgiven. It was refusing to recognize the Holy Spirit's activity where the Pharisees were convinced it couldn't be present.

I believe the Holy Spirit could indeed have intended a split, as remedial discipline for a church whose pride had turned it toxic for many of the people in its charge.

Tangible said:

3) The Julian Calendar was rejected in favor of the Gregorian Calendar.

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So you favour a calendar set by Pagans over one set by Christians?

Tangible said:

Common RCC mythology. The Roman Catholic Church is the descendant of several previous churches. There have been at least two defining moments indicating a major change in theology and confession.

One, and earliest, was the promulgation of papal supremacy. This contributed to the schism with the Eastern Church, and created much confusion and consternation in the West. Gradually, the formerly independent Western churches accepted the primacy of Rome and came under papal control.

Another was the Tridentine Council, which very narrowly limited and demanded conformity in a wide range of positions where formerly there had been tolerance and freedom of conscience.

These two events at least are sufficient to demonstrate that there have indeed been many changes over time which has resulted in the particular identity and confession of today's Roman Catholic Church.

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To a lesser extent I think the 1st Vatican Council could be added which asserted the dogma of papal infallibility which resulted in a schism, the Old Catholic/Ultrajectine Churches can be traced to this 19th century schism.

-CryptoLutheran

DrBubbaLove said:

Why does my definition matter?
The point was many Christians forget the origin of the word and the Church being "protested". Calling themselves generically "Christians" or "non-denominational" further obscures the origin of their beliefs - no matter how far removed/branched off from it they be.

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Some of us have only God and the Bible without external indoctrination; I was baptised as an infant in the Presbyterian church and went to Sunday School when I was 8, so I call myself protestant; I expect the Presbyterian church has changed and I wouldn't know it. I am surprised someone hasn't mentioned Revelation and the command to come out of her my people, in relation to the reformation, or the break away of the Orthodox churches.

Jesus has the best answer about the Reformation age. (1520 to 1750) in His letter to the Church of Sardis in Revelation 3.

“And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,

‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. 4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

6 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’

If you want to know what Jesus prophesied about the Catholic Church read Revelation 2 to the Church of Thyatira. And about the Protesants starting with John Wesley, for one, read His letter to the Church of Philadelphia, again in chapter 3.

The seven letters of Jesus to seven churches are His prophecies for the whole church, starting with Ephesus, the 1st century church, then Smyrna, the age of the martyrs which stopped at Constantine, who started the age of Pergamos which continued until the start of what is now the Roman Catholic Church, around 600 A.D. until the Reformation in 1520. Just before this age started the last of the true church leaders were killed, which James was one, a deposini. Only the ages of Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodecia continue simultaneously to the end; we still have all four of these last denominational types of His Church.

So Catholics can bad mouth the Reformation and Protesants, and the other way around, but we are all Christ's Church. And Catholics didn't start with Peter as they claim. In fact Peter wasn't the head of the Church, James was the first head of the Church because he was the brother of Jesus. So stop bickering because we need to abide by His warnings and overcome if we do not want to be present during the Great Tribulation. And if you hate your brother, you definitely will be.

JackRT said:

So you favour a calendar set by Pagans over one set by Christians?

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What's the difference between a duck?

Tangible said:

What's the difference between a duck?

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The simple answer is an orange because a vest has no sleeves.

hedrick said:

On the term Roman Catholic Church: There are a number of churches in communion with the Pope. The RCC is the biggest, but there are various Eastern churches as well. Catholic refers to all of them. RCC to the specific church.

The Presbyterian Church and several others have a formal agreement with the RCC on mutual recognition of baptism. On the signatures at the end, the Catholic partner identifies itself as the Roman Catholic Church. Presumably all the Catholic churches would recognize our baptism, but the formal agreement is between the Presbyterian Church USA and the council of bishops of the RCC in the US.

In many cases, of course the term Catholic is appropriate, e.g. in discussing the Catholic tradition or theology in general. But it was specifically the RCC that broke away from Luther.

On denying the presence of the Holy Spirit in churches or traditions with which you disagree, I suggest looking again at Mat 12:31. The sin against the Holy Spirit wasn't rejection of Jesus. 12:32 says that can be forgiven. It was refusing to recognize the Holy Spirit's activity where the Pharisees were convinced it couldn't be present.

I believe the Holy Spirit could indeed have intended a split, as remedial discipline for a church whose pride had turned it toxic for many of the people in its charge.

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Actually - is totally inaccurate.

There is only ONE Church - the Catholic Church, which is made up of about 20 RITES. All of these Rites are in communion with each other and with the Bishop of Rome - the Pope.

Rites are NOT churches.

MarysSon said:

There is only ONE Church - the Catholic Church, which is made up of about 20 RITES. All of these Rites are in communion with each other and with the Bishop of Rome - the Pope.

Rites are NOT churches.

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There are rites, but there are also other churches. The difference has confused a lot of threads here on CF as well as how the word Catholic can be used.

Albion said:

There are rites, but there are also other churches. The difference has confused a lot of threads here on CF as well as how the word Catholic can be used.

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WRONG.
The 20 or so Rites of the Catholic Church are in perfect communion with each other and the Pope. Any other entity is not.

There are almost 50,000 disjointed and perpetually-splintering sects - many of them claiming to be Catholic but are not.

There is only ONE Catholic Church - which many of you mistakenly refer to as the "RCC" or "Roman" Catholic Church. Roman or Latin is merely one of the RITES of the Church.

MarysSon said:

The 20 or so Rites of the Catholic Church are in perfect communion with each other and the Pope. Any other entity is not.

There are almost 50,000 disjointed and perpetually-splintering sects - many of them claiming to be Catholic but are not.

There is only ONE Catholic Church - which many of you mistakenly refer to as the "RCC" or "Roman" Catholic Church. Roman or Latin is merely one of the RITES of the Church.

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There are a lot of Catholic churches, like it or not. And one of them--yours--does have a number of different rites. That's the situation in a nutshell.

(I will congratulate you on the "50,000" Protestant churches claim, however. That's quite a number. Usually we hear 40,000, 33,000, 30,000, and not long ago it was 22,000. By the way, the study that came up with whichever one of those figures you want to use listed over 300 Roman Catholic Churches, not to mention other Catholic rites and churches.)

MarysSon said:

WRONG.
The 20 or so Rites of the Catholic Church are in perfect communion with each other and the Pope. Any other entity is not.

There are almost 50,000 disjointed and perpetually-splintering sects - many of them claiming to be Catholic but are not.

There is only ONE Catholic Church - which many of you mistakenly refer to as the "RCC" or "Roman" Catholic Church. Roman or Latin is merely one of the RITES of the Church.

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So which is the true Catholic Church? Don't they all follow Jesus?

Albion said:

There are a lot of Catholic churches, like it or not. And one of them--yours--does have a number of different rites. That's the situation in a nutshell.

(I will congratulate you on the "50,000" Protestant churches claim, however. That's quite a number. Usually we hear 40,000, 33,000, 30,000, and not long ago it was 22,000. By the way, the study that came up with whichever one of those figures you want to use listed over 300 Roman Catholic Churches, not to mention other Catholic rites and churches.)

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Once again - you fail to understand what the Church is.

"Roman" Catholic simply refers to the Rite, which is called "Roman" or "Latin". There is also the Melkite Rite, the Assyrian Rite, the Alexandrian Rite, the Coptic rite, the Ruthenian Rite and many others.

They are ALL in Communion with the Pope - but they are not "churches".
As for any other sect that calls itself the "Catholic" Church - they are schismatic dissent groups.

There is the "Old Catholic Church", the "Polish Catholic Church", the "Traditional Catholic Church". the "Irish Catholic Church", the "Independent Catholic Church", and MANY more. NONE of these is in communion with the Catholic Church.

I suggest you do some homework before responding because you are dead wrong here.

1stcenturylady said:

So which is the true Catholic Church? Don't they all follow Jesus?

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Not sure what to say here because I already answered this question.

I already explained that there is ONE Catholic Church made up of 20 RITES. that are all in full communion with the Pope. Any other entity that calls itself "Catholic" is NOT in communion with the Catholic Church.

As for who "follows" Jesus - that is a broad statement.
There are those who claim they follow Jesus - yet deny His deity.
There are others who deny the Trinity.

Outside the Catholic Church - I'm not really sure WHO follows Jesus.

MarysSon said:

Not sure what to say here because I already answered this question.

I already explained that there is ONE Catholic Church made up of 20 RITES. that are all in full communion with the Pope. Any other entity that calls itself "Catholic" is NOT in communion with the Catholic Church.

As for who "follows" Jesus - that is a broad statement.
There are those who claim they follow Jesus - yet deny His deity.
There are others who deny the Trinity.

Outside the Catholic Church - I'm not really sure WHO follows Jesus.

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Are they located in a certain area, like Rome?