What does it mean to "worship the beast"?

Bible2+ said:

The 666 in Revelation 13:17c-18 refers to the number six hundred and sixty-six, the "number of the name" of the individual man who is the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"). The number of a name (Revelation 13:17c-18, Revelation 15:2) is determined by employing the ancient method of gematria, by which numerical values are assigned to the letters of any alphabet as follows: The first nine letters are 1 through 9, the next nine letters are 10 through 90 (counting by tens), and the rest of the letters are 100, 200, 300, etc., to the end of the alphabet. In Revelation 13:18, the "counting", the adding up, of the gematrial number of the Antichrist's name should be done in the same way that the gematrial numerical values of the three Greek letters (Chi, Xi, and Stigma) at the end of Revelation 13:18 (in the original Greek Textus Receptus) are added up to arrive at the number six hundred and sixty-six.

The numerical values of the letters of the ancient Greek alphabet (including the three obsolete letters of Stigma, Qoppa, and Sampi) were as follows: Alpha = 1, Beta = 2, Gamma = 3, Delta = 4, Epsilon = 5, Stigma = 6, Zeta = 7, Eta = 8, Theta = 9, Iota = 10, Kappa = 20, Lambda = 30, Mu = 40, Nu = 50, Xi = 60, Omikron = 70, Pi = 80, Qoppa = 90, Rho = 100, Sigma = 200, Tau = 300, Upsilon = 400, Phi = 500, Chi = 600, Psi = 700, Omega = 800, Sampi = 900.

Just as the numerical values of Chi, Xi, and Stigma at the end of Revelation 13:18 (in the Textus Receptus) add up to 666, so the numerical values of the letters in the Antichrist's name will add up to 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18). John used the Greek alphabet because it was the most common one used by Christians when the book of Revelation was written. Today, the English alphabet is the most common one used by Christians, insofar as English is the current lingua franca of the world. So the Antichrist's name will most likely add up to 666 in the English alphabet. The purpose of Revelation 13:17c-18 is to facilitate for Christians, not to make difficult for them, the identification of a certain man as possibly being the Antichrist. If the letters in his name had to be transliterated into the Greek alphabet, this would vitiate this purpose, for almost all Christians today would not know how to properly perform this transliteration, and so different Christians would come up with different transliterations, and so would come up with different gematrial numbers for the name of the man in question.

If Christians think that someone is the Antichrist, they need to check and make sure that his name adds up to 666 in gematria (Revelation 13:17c-18). If it does not, then he is not the Antichrist. If it does, then he could be, and they need to be especially wary of him and not be taken in by any deceptive charisma, intelligence, or amazing deeds which he might display. But even if someone's name does add up to 666, this does not mean that he is definitely the Antichrist. For just by chance there could be more than one person in the world whose name adds up to 666. The Antichrist also has to come from a country the territory of which used to be part of one of the four Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). These kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4), and have a name like (for example) "Nabil Abdullah Falakal al-Hakim", which adds up to 666.

But if a man from the Middle East has a name which adds up to 666, even this does not assure that he is the Antichrist. For he also has to sit (at least one time) in a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). Once he does that, there will not be any more room for doubt over whether or not he is the Antichrist. His identity will have been definitely revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:3b-4).

The gematrial numerical values of the letters of the English alphabet are: A=1, B=2, C=3, D=4, E=5, F=6, G=7, H=8, I=9, J=10, K=20, L=30, M=40, N=50, O=60, P=70, Q=80, R=90, S=100, T=200, U=300, V=400, W=500, X=600, Y=700, Z=800. The way that the gematrial number of a name is "counted" (Revelation 13:17c-18), is added up, is simply by adding up the gematrial numerical values of all the letters in that name. So, for example, the number of the name "John Mark Smith" is 636, because: J=10, O=60, H=8, N=50, M=40, A=1, R=90, K=20, S=100, M=40, I=9, T=200, H=8. Total = 636. The Antichrist's name will add up to 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18).

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In the past, I've already stated the futility of "gematria". It is silly to use it for the purpose of identifying the antichrist, and the absurdity becomes evident when you consider the fact that very many names add up to 666 using this system.

Waterwerx said:

In the past, I've already stated the futility of "gematria". It is silly to use it for the purpose of identifying the antichrist, and the absurdity becomes evident when you consider the fact that very many names add up to 666 using this system.

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And also, when the phrase "here is wisdom" or "let the reader understand" or similar phrase is used, it alludes to something spiritual.

CuriousWes said:

Of the "unholy trinity" mentioned in Revelation (the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet) only the false prophet is a human. I say that because the beast comes up out of the abyss. The abyss is only ever used in the context of evil spirit beings, never humans. And of course Satan (the dragon) is an evil angel.

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Revelation 20:10 proves the Beast is a man. The Beast that comes up out of the bottomless pit is the Demonic principality that is over THE SEVEN !! He is not a Beast Head, there are/will be only Seven Beast Heads, not eight. They are Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome and the Anti-Christ/10 Kings. The problem is you think he's a human/national Beast, that's just not the case, he is the LORD/KING over this order to Destroy/wipe out Israel, just like Jesus is our Lord/King. Jesus is with every body of Christ where two or more are gathered in his name. He is omnipotent, this Demonic being has a Specific job, to destroy Israel, and Apollyon means Destroyer. He is not one of the SEVEN HEADS, the Last BEAST is a MAN !!

The Dragon is Satan, he is of course Lord of all the Demons, even over Apollyon.

CuriousWes said:

As I see it, Satan gives his power, throne, and great authority to another evil angel, the beast, and then enters the false prophet who incidentally speaks like a dragon. The beast is the one providing the supernatural fireworks through the Satan possesses channel called the false prophet.

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The False Prophet is a Rabbi Jewish leader imho. He has some sort of Demonic power, that's for sure.

CuriousWes said:

How does the beast with 10 horns in Daniel 7 become the beast in Revelation with 10 horns and 7 heads? Where did the seven heads come from? My thoughts . . . the 7 heads are Satan's and they represent the transfer of Satan's power, throne and great authority to the beast. Notice where the crowns are on the dragon verses the beast.

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If you will notice there are actually 11 Horns in Daniel 7, in Rev. 13 and 17 ONE HORN is missing !! But its NOT.....

In Daniel 7 we see the Beasts are the Lion (Babylon) Bear (Persia) Leopard (Greece) and Fourth Beast/ Fierce (Rome) and at the END TIMES a Little Horn arises out of the Fourth Beasts Head along with 10 Horns. In Rev. 13 we see the Lion, Bear and Leopard so we understand this Seven Headed Beast incorporates the Beasts of Daniel into it. They are a part of it. BUT there is only 10 Horns..........Seven Heads and 10 Horns !! Where is the LITTLE HORN? He's missing !! Not Really. We need to find the Seven Heads so lets do this !!

We have Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome. Then we have the Little Horn who becomes the SEVENTH HEAD !! That's why there is not 11 Horns, but only 10 in Rev. 13 and 17, The Little Horn is one of the Seven Beasts of History. Who are the other two Beasts ? Well Daniel pretty much shows that a BEAST is a Nation that Conquers, Enslaves or Rules Israel, so lets look through history to find the other two. Hmmmmm, that would be Egypt and Assyria of course.

So the Seven Headed Beast is a composite of all the BEASTS, Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome and the Anti-Christ and his 10 Kings. Thus we get a BEAST with Seven Heads and 10 Horns !! Viola.

The Last HEAD is the Anti-Christ, a mere man. The 10 Kings give him their POWER.

Waterwerx said:

Revelation 17 is referring to a united religious system that is situated on 7 mountains(meaning it is global in scope) which gets destroyed approximately mid-way through the tribulation period and replaced with the worship of the antichrist. It is destroyed by the 10 kings.

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There is no Seven Mountains, its rather obvious if you look at it, the very next verse says they are also SEVEN KINGS. The Seven Heads (which the Woman Rides/SEVEN KINGDOMS) are also Seven Mountains (Greek word ORO, one who Arises ABOVE THE PLAIN.....Ruler) and they are ALSO SEVEN KINGS !! The Angel is reducing the KINGDOMS into KINGS so we will understand this Last Head of the Seven Headed Beast or the LAST BEAST is not a Kingdom per se, but a MERE MAN/Dictator. That is why he is called the Man of Sin/Man of Lawlessness/Assyrian. Why it says in Rev. 13, that 666 is the Number of a Man. Then right after the Reducing/Transfer we are told FIVE have Fallen (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, and Greece) ONE IS (Rome) and one is NOT YET COME (Anti-Christ and 10 Kings).

Revelation 17 JUDGES the Harlot, she only RIDES the Beast she is not the Beast. False Religion has been a part of all Six of the Fallen Beast Kingdoms, she is CO-MINGLED with them. But in Revelation 17:16 the Kings in League with the Beast/Anti-Christ kill off the Harlot, she is JUDGED !! She is NO MORE !! Because of course the Anti-Christ demands to be worshiped as the ONLY GOD !! That happens in Rev. chapter 6, Revelation 17 is not a real time event. FACTS. In Revelation 18, when Babylon is Destroyed, the Kings Cry and Lament her demise, but they HATE THE Harlot. So the Harlot and Babylon are two different entities.

Waterwerx said:

Revelation 18 (after these things, meaning AFTER the events of Revelation 17) is referring to a commercial system headquartered in a city that is destroyed by judgments from God, and it's destruction is mourned by the kings of the earth.

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There is also no Revelation chapter 18, at least in REAL TIME....Remember in Revelation chapter 16 the Angel says, IT IS DONE !! Babylon is wiped out in Revelation 16:19.

Revelation 18 is Babylon getting destroyed by the Seals/Trumpets/Vials, which end in Chapter 16. Rev. 17 and 18 is only ENHANCED VERSIONS of things that have already passed.

Revealing Times said:

Revelation 20:10 prove the Beast is a man.

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Just how exactly?

CuriousWes said:

Just how exactly?

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Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Remember, this happens 1000 years later, the devil was locked into the bottomless pit for 1000 years, but this MAN or Anti-Christ was cast STRAIGHT INTO HELL, just like Daniel chapter 7 said would happen, as was the False Prophet.

Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. (Anti-Christ = a Man) 9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit (JESUS CHRIST), whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. 12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

So the Little Horn is a MAN, and in the END TIMES Jesus Christ comes forth and Destroys this Anti-Christ, LAST BEAST or Little Horn and casts him STRAIGHT in to the Burning Flame (Hell). But the REST OF THE BEASTS had their dominion taken away, but will live on a season....What does that mean ? It means that Little Horn is END TIMES he will be Destroyed, this is why he rules only a SHORT TIME, but the Rest of the BEASTS (Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome) when they lost their Dominion, they yet lived, that is because the END TIME was not yet come. Babylon was the place Alexander the Great lived when he died. Persia is IRAN Today and Greece and Rome are still around, even though they have long since lost their great powers.

Does Revelation chapter 19 Agree ? Lets see:

Rev. 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone

IT ALL MATCHES BROTHER..............Amen.

Revealing Times said:

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Remember, this happens 1000 years later, the devil was locked into the bottomless pit for 1000 years, but this MAN or Anti-Christ was cast STRAIGHT INTO HELL, just like Daniel chapter 7 said would happen, as was the False Prophet.

Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. (Anti-Christ = a Man) 9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit (JESUS CHRIST), whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. 12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

So the Little Horn is a MAN, and in the END TIMES Jesus Christ comes forth and Destroys this Anti-Christ, LAST BEAST or Little Horn and casts him STRAIGHT in to the Burning Flame (Hell). But the REST OF THE BEASTS had their dominion taken away, but will live on a season....What does that mean ? It means that Little Horn is END TIMES he will be Destroyed, this is why he rules only a SHORT TIME, but the Rest of the BEASTS (Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome) when they lost their Dominion, they let lived, that is because the END TIME was not yet come. Babylon was the place Alexander the Great lived when he died. Persia is IRAN Today and Greece and Rome are still around, even though they have long since lost their great powers.

Does Revelation chapter 19 Agree ? Lets see:

Rev. 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone

IT ALL MATCHES BROTHER..............Amen.

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I guess that makes sense to you but I don't see it proving that the beast is a man.

Wasn't the lake of fire created for Satan and his angels? What is a man doing in there before the day the ungodly are judged?

Who do you see as being the seed of Satan? Genesis 3:15

CuriousWes said:

I guess that makes sense to you but I don't see it proving that the beast is a man.

Wasn't the lake of fire created for Satan and his angels? What is a man doing in there before the day the ungodly are judged?

Who do you see as being the seed of Satan? Genesis 3:15

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Notice in Daniel 7 it says the thrones were cast down and (Jesus) the Ancient one did sit. These are Judgment thrones. Just like in Rev. 20.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Good question, all of the others were judged a 1000 years later after the Church that was Raptured and those Beheaded during the Tribulation, except the Anti-Christ and False Prophet, as Daniel prophesied, they were cast straight into hell, thus they were judged at the same time as the Beheaded.

The Bible says over and over that this BEAST is a Man. That is why they keep saying he has EYES like a MAN and SPEAKS like a MAN !!

Revealing Times said:

The Bible says over and over that this BEAST is a Man. That is why they keep saying he has EYES like a MAN and SPEAKS like a MAN !!

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I'm not inclined to accept assertions as fact, regardless as to how often or how emphatically they are made. Nowhere does the Bible say that the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns is a man.

Revelation 13:5 states that the beast was given a mouth speaking blasphemies. If he is a man, why is he given a mouth? Wouldn't he already have one. The false prophet is the "mouth" that the beast was given. The beast needed a mouthpiece because he is an evil angel.

Daniel 7:8 states that the little horn possessed eyes and a mouth, not the beast. Big difference.

There is only one human, the false prophet. Call him the Antichrist, or the man of sin, or the son of perdition, it doesn't matter. They all refer to the same person, the little horn of Daniel 7:8, and the mouthpiece of Revelation 13:5, the false prophet.

CuriousWes said:

I guess that makes sense to you but I don't see it proving that the beast is a man.

Wasn't the lake of fire created for Satan and his angels? What is a man doing in there before the day the ungodly are judged?

Who do you see as being the seed of Satan? Genesis 3:15

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Because why would the false prophet and beast have any part in the 1000 year reign?

They certainly won't be reigning and they certainly won't be subjects

Remember the rest of the dead do not rise until after satan is once again let loose to deceive

CuriousWes said:

I guess that makes sense to you but I don't see it proving that the beast is a man.

Wasn't the lake of fire created for Satan and his angels? What is a man doing in there before the day the ungodly are judged?

Who do you see as being the seed of Satan? Genesis 3:15

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Revelation 19
17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

The remnant mentioned in revelation 29 are the rest of the dead who, because of the symbolic birds eating their flesh, will stand in the judgement on the last day but will not have salvation

These will, at the end of all things, be cast into the LoF. They won't be coming to the wedding feast of the LAMB

Notice the bolded pronouns in revelation 19: "he"...."his" referring to the beast

It's a man

CuriousWes said:

I'm not inclined to accept assertions as fact, regardless as to how often or how emphatically they are made. Nowhere does the Bible say that the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns is a man.

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That is because you don't understand the Seven Headed Beast is all Seven Empires that conquered Israel at some point in time, hence the Lion, Leopard and Bear are shown in Rev. 13. The MAN OF SIN is only one of the Heads of the Seven Headed Beast. That is not going to change.

CuriousWes said:

Revelation 13:5 states that the beast was given a mouth speaking blasphemies. If he is a man, why is he given a mouth? Wouldn't he already have one. The false prophet is the "mouth" that the beast was given. The beast needed a mouthpiece because he is an evil angel.

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Because all men are given mouths !! You see how we over-complicate things? Jesus wants us to know its a man. Also the Seven Headed Beast had SIX KINGDOMS, now it has a MAN with a MOUTH as one of the Heads.

CuriousWes said:

Daniel 7:8 states that the little horn possessed eyes and a mouth, not the beast. Big difference.

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The Little Horn is the Beast. Read Daniel 7 & 8, the Little Horn is END TIMES because he is cast straight into hell. Now watch this, lets compare the Beast of Revelation 13 with Daniels Little Horn of 7 & 8 to see if they are the same person.

Daniel 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The Seven Headed Beast had only Six Heads until the Anti-Christ comes to power in the END TIMES, thee Six were KINGDOMS (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome) the last Beast is DIFFERENT, it is a MAN, not a Kingdom, they the Seven Headed Beast now has a MOUTH, before it was just Six Kingdoms. In other words the Last Head of this Seven Headed Beast is a MAN that Speaks blasphemies against God and he Makes War with the Saints, just like the Little Horn of Daniel chapter 7.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. (42 Months).

CuriousWes said:

There is only one human, the false prophet. Call him the Antichrist, or the man of sin, or the son of perdition, it doesn't matter. They all refer to the same person, the little horn of Daniel 7:8, and the mouthpiece of Revelation 13:5, the false prophet.

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The False Prophet will be the side kick of the Anti-Christ. The Beast is a MAN.

Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Revealing Times said in post #58:

He then says Babylon will be rebuilt, when the bible clearly states Babylon will never be inhabited again . . .

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Are you thinking of Isaiah 13:19-22?

If so, note that the city of Babylon referred to in Isaiah 13 (verses 1,19) isn't the ancient city of Babylon, just as it isn't the symbolic (and worldwide) "Babylon" of Revelation. Instead, it is only the present-day, literal city of Babylon (in Iraq), which the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will transform into his world capital during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

For in Isaiah 13:3, the "sanctified ones" who "rejoice in [YHWH's] highness" are the obedient people in the church in Revelation 19:7-8, after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be, in Isaiah 13:4-5, the "host of the battle" from "heaven", when they physically descend from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus as he wages war against the world's armies at his second coming (Revelation 19:14-21). So in Isaiah 13:6,9, the "day of the Lord" is the same as the future, second-coming day of the Lord (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

Isaiah 13:10,13 refers to the same, future, second-coming time as Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19:15.

Isaiah 13:11 refers to Jesus' defeat of the world's armies at his second coming (Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Isaiah 13:16 refers not to what Jesus or the church will do, but to what some unsaved "Medes" (Isaiah 13:17-18) will do to the inhabitants of the city of Babylon at the time of Jesus' second coming. By "Medes" is meant the native inhabitants of that part of the Middle East which in ancient times was called "Media" and is now in northwestern Iran. (The Kurds who now live there, and in surrounding areas, even claim to be the descendants of the ancient Medes.)

In Isaiah 13:17, the "Medes" aren't the ancient Medes who conquered the ancient city of Babylon (Daniel 5:28,31). For the ancient Medes didn't make the ancient city of Babylon uninhabited (Isaiah 13:19-22) when they defeated it, but instead kept it as a thriving city which continued on for centuries.

In Isaiah 13:19-22, the total and eternal destruction of the city of Babylon has never been fulfilled. For Saddam Hussein rebuilt the city of Babylon (using bricks he inscribed with "built by Saddam Hussein, son of Nebuchadnezzar"). And after his defeat, U.S. forces built a military base in Babylon. And in the future, the Antichrist will transform the city of Babylon into his world capital. Isaiah 13:19-22 won't be fulfilled until this city is destroyed at Jesus Christ's second coming.

Revealing Times said in post #58:

He does not claim to be Israel's Messiah . . .

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That's right.

For "anti"-Christ can simply refer to anyone who is "against" the true Christ, as in any "opponent of the Messiah" (Strong's Greek Dictionary, Word #500: antichristos), as in anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), or denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b), or denies that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The spirit of antichrist (1 John 4:3) has been working since the first century AD (2 Thessalonians 2:7), animating many antichrists since that time (1 John 2:18; 2 John 1:7).

Also, nothing requires that the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will ever claim to be the Messiah/Christ. For his antichrist denial that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3) will disqualify him as a mortal-flesh human (under his mistaken Gnostic doctrine) from being Christ. Instead, the non-mortal-flesh Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) could be the false Christ (that is, the "Lucifer" Christ, and not the "Jesus" Christ: 1 John 2:22) during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

But none of this means that there won't also be multiple, human false Christs who will arise during the tribulation (Matthew 24:24), including one who will be an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Christ/Messiah. For shortly after the start of the tribulation, the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:22-23a) in Israel, promising this false Messiah and his ultra-Orthodox Jewish followers that they can keep for at least seven years (Daniel 9:27a) a third Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1) which they will have built on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

CuriousWes said in post #59:

How does the beast with 10 horns in Daniel 7 become the beast in Revelation with 10 horns and 7 heads?

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Regarding Daniel 7, there the first three beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), and Greece (leopard). The fourth beast, or fourth "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman empire. And the ten horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent ten major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa. These ten nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria. The ten part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the ten horns of Daniel 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron, and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43, the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany, but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Arab Algerians living in France, but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.

But despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one federation. For Daniel 2:42 refers to the ten as a singular "kingdom". The person who will bring this about could be the Antichrist.

The arising of the "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9), which is "diverse" from the ten major nations (Daniel 7:24), could mean that the Antichrist will arise from a little country. And the little horn arising from "among" the ten major nations (Daniel 7:8) could mean that the Antichrist's country's territory used to be part of the Roman empire. And before that, it was part of one of the four Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these four kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist federation of three of the ten major nations (Daniel 7:24): Egypt, "toward the south" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9), and Iraq and Syria, "toward the east" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9). This federation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine, that is, a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land" (Daniel 8:9).

This Baathist federation could be put together in the future by an Iraqi Baathist General who could completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who could then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45). Years later, when the Antichrist gains control of all ten of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will defer to him (Revelation 17:13), like how when Napoleon gained control of different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.

CuriousWes said in post #59:

Where did the seven heads come from? My thoughts . . . the 7 heads are Satan's and they represent the transfer of Satan's power, throne and great authority to the beast.

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That's right.

The beast in its empire aspect (Revelation 13:1-2, Revelation 17:3) is a different entity than Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:3,9). For the beast and the dragon are shown to be separate in Revelation 13:2,4, Revelation 16:13, and Revelation 19:20 to 20:3. Also, as you pointed out, Satan has his crowns on his seven heads (Revelation 12:3,9), while the beast has its crowns on its ten horns (Revelation 13:1).

In Revelation 12:3, the seven heads are Satan's literal heads in his true, serpentine-dragon form (Revelation 12:9), while the seven heads of the symbolic leopard-like beast in Revelation 13:1-2 and Revelation 17:3 are the symbolic heads of the kingdom of Satan as he has made it in his seven-headed image down through the ages, during seven consecutive empires (Revelation 17:9-10).

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CuriousWes said in post #62:

And also, when the phrase "here is wisdom" or "let the reader understand" or similar phrase is used, it alludes to something spiritual.

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The "wisdom" given in Revelation 13:18 is that six hundred and sixty-six is the number of the Antichrist's name (Revelation 13:17c-18). And the "understanding" in Revelation 13:18 which is required to properly "count", to add up, the number of his name, is having an understanding of gematria, which scripture itself employs with the three Greek letters at the end of Revelation 13:18 (in the original Greek Textus Receptus), and which scriptural gematria, sadly, many Christians today are either unaware of, or, even if they know about it, they refuse to employ it, mistakenly thinking that it is some sort of occult numerology/divination.

Waterwerx said in post #60:

Revelation 17 is referring to a united religious system . . .

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Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents all of fallen mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). The ten kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the nations (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number 6 in English gematria), at the time of the seventh vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Near the very end of the future tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his ten kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break all our chains of attachment to this vile, physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [cf. Isaiah 14:13-14]".

Of course this will be a lie. For at his second coming, Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat the world's armies, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit during the subsequent thousand years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15). And Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the thousand years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a new heaven (a new first heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will descend from the third heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with saved humanity on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-4).

Revealing Times said:

That is because you don't understand the Seven Headed Beast is all Seven Empires that conquered Israel at some point in time, hence the Lion, Leopard and Bear are shown in Rev. 13. The MAN OF SIN is only one of the Heads of the Seven Headed Beast. That is not going to change.



Because all men are give mouths !! You see how we over-complicate things ? Jesus wants us to know its a man.



The Little Horn is the Beast. Read Daniel 7 & 8, the Little Horn is END TIMES because he is cast straight into hell. Now watch this, lets compare the Beast of Revelation 13 with Daniels Little Horn of 7 & 8 to see if they are the same person.

Daniel 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The Seven Headed Beast had only Six Heads until the Anti-Christ comes to power in the END TIMES, thee Six were KINGDOMS (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome) the last Beast is DIFFERENT, it is a MAN, not a Kingdom, they the Seven Headed Beast now has a MOUTH, before it was just Six Kingdoms. In other words the Last Head of this Seven Headed Beast is a MAN that Speaks blasphemies against God and he Makes War with the Saints, just like the Little Horn of Daniel chapter 7.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. (42 Months).



The False Prophet will be the side kick of the Anti-Christ. The Beast is a MAN.

Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

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I guess we'll just wait and see. I don't suspect we have too much longer.

CuriousWes said:

I guess we'll just wait and see. I don't suspect we have too much longer.

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I will not be here either way. Raptured or passed on. But I already know, the Holy Spirit doesn't mislead us.

Revealing Times said:

I will not be here either way. Raptured or passed on. But I already know, the Holy Spirit doesn't mislead us.

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Of course.

Bible2+ said:

The ten kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the nations (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number 6 in English gematria),

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Any credibility you had regarding systematic Theology went completely out the window at this point. Obviously your approach to "all" of the Scriptures revolves around gematria, which is as bad and misleading as the so-called Bible Code. There really isn't a place for that kind of stuff here in my opinion.

Revealing Times said:

There is also no Revelation chapter 18, at least in REAL TIME....Remember in Revelation chapter 16 the Angel says, IT IS DONE !! Babylon is wiped out in Revelation 16:19.

Revelation 18 is Babylon getting destroyed by the Seals/Trumpets/Vials, which end in Chapter 16. Rev. 17 and 18 is only ENHANCED VERSIONS of things that have already passed.

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What are you going on about here? Did you read a single thing I wrote in my post or are you blindly responding? Nowhere did I mention or say anything about when commercial Babylon falls during the tribulation. My point is that Revelation 17 and 18 are two separate events, and I'm fully aware of the repetition in the book of Revelation.

Waterwerx said:

Any credibility you had regarding systematic Theology went completely out the window at this point. Obviously your approach to "all" of the Scriptures revolves around gematria, which is as bad and misleading as the so-called Bible Code. There really isn't a place for that kind of stuff here in my opinion.



What are you going on about here? Did you read a single thing I wrote in my post or are you blindly responding? Nowhere did I mention or say anything about when commercial Babylon falls during the tribulation. My point is that Revelation 17 and 18 are two separate events, and I'm fully aware of the repetition in the book of Revelation.

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Yes. they are two separate events because the Harlot and Babylon are two different entities. I pointed out that Revelation chapter 17 and chapter 18 are Visions about things that have happened by the end of Revelation chapter 16.

Revelation 17 happens during Revelation chapter 6.

Revelation 18 happens during the Seals, Trumpet and Vial Plagues. Revelation 16 ends with the Battle of Armageddon. or Seventh Vial. IT IS DONE...................Just pointing out the obvious.