Is there salvation in Mary?

mea kulpa

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We cannot discuss meaningfully if you do not address your first comment which I quoted for you. We are born from above...all human believers are born from above as was Mary.
Now I can address this post, but I don't truly know where you stand on the other yet. We are not over-shadowed by Mary...she has no such power. Over-shadowing was power of the Holy Spirit who gave birth to Jesus.
The Genesis 3:15 is speaking of the coming Christ, the enmity between Satan and man...He defeated Satan...this was spoken to Eve as you know...not Mary...and it applies to all mankind.


No no no.... we are not overshadowed by mary.

Normal birth takes place by a man lets just say "overshaddowing" a woman. The woman concieves the child passes through the felopian tubes and comes to rest in the womb then after growing and developing the child passes through the birth canal and is born

Christ too by the over shadowing of the spirit and not man

So when we are born of the spirit. The spirit overshadows our lady we pass through the felopian tube and into the womb here we meet the preborn lord and our faith is in its infancy as the child jesus grows and develops we grow and develop alongside him until we fully reborn into the kingdom of God

I am not saying our lady overshadows us... no its just beautiful imagery of being born of the spirit
 
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jerry kelso

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No no no.... we are not overshadowed by mary.

Normal birth takes place by a man lets just say "overshadowing" a woman. The woman concieves the child passes through the felopian tubes and comes to rest in the womb then after growing and developing the child passes through the birth canal and is born

Christ too by the over shadowing of the spirit and not man

So when we are born of the spirit. The spirit overshadows our lady we pass through the felopian tube and into the womb here we meet the preborn lord and our faith is in its infancy as the child jesus grows and develops we grow and develop alongside him until we fully reborn into the kingdom of God

I am not saying our lady overshadows us... no its just beautiful imagery of being born of the spirit

mea kulpa,

1. You are trying to compare the physical birth with the spiritual birth.
John 3:6; that which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit.

2. Born of water and Spirit to a Jew denoted the Red Sea deliverance which was a type of 1 Corinthians 10:1-4; baptized into the cloud and sea.
Baptized in the Spirit for a Jew was to be salvation through spiritual circumcision.

3. Faith is to be in Christ crucified and risen not the birth of the preborn Jesus. The Bible says we grow from grace to grace.

4. Fully being reborn into the KoG deals with salvation one is born into.
A Christian is only to be born once from as Paul said in Romans 6 to die once to sin as Christ died once.

5. Christ wasn't born of the Spirit for salvation.
We do grow from grace to grace through our trials and sufferings to learn obedience like Christ who was the God-man. Hebrews 5:8
Until we fully reborn into the KoG
concerning salvation sounds like the 6 or 7 steps to salvation.
There is only one step to salvation as far as being born again.
The phrase "born again" is not physically itself. It is for the fact that we are born with spirits that are dead.
Being born again spiritually is the spirit being made alive Romans 8:10-13. Jerry kelso
 
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mea kulpa

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mea kulpa,

1. Your wording is wrong. You are trying to compare the physical birth with the spiritual birth.
John 3:6; that which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit.

2. Born of water and Spirit to a Jew denoted the Red Sea deliverance which was a type of 1 Corinthians 10:1-4; baptized into the cloud and sea.
Baptized in the Spirit for a Jew was to be salvation through spiritual circumcision.

3. Faith is to be in Christ crucified and risen not the birth of the preborn Jesus. The Bible says we grow from grace to grace.

4. Fully being reborn into the KoG deals with salvation one is born into.
A Christian is only to be born once from as Paul said in Romans 6 to die once to sin as Christ died once.

5.


Yes i know all this and i see how what i am saying could appear that i am denying this but i am not... i am just reflecting on these things i mentioned i am not putting them out as some new doctrine. I agree there is some major leaps from one scripture to another and i still have not come to a comfortable definition of the reflection but i still think the imagery of it is still very beautiful and there still maybe things to be taken from that.
 
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mea kulpa

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It may not be a refined a reflection a bit lumpy and a bit bumpy i could not find the terms and the words to articulate it...to but it seems it was the holy spirit that promoted me when i was made aware of our lords words... unrefined maybe but it seems i was on the right track


I still think this homily could have been fleshed out some more especialy on the "my soul doth magnify the lord"

All praise and thanksgiving to you oh Lord God of Heaven and Earth for your divine inspiration given to your uneducated humbled and humiliated servent for your glorification and not my own for it is reward enough that you came to me in the prompting of the holy spirit and to be in your presence oh heavenly spouse in this world or the next is to be in paradise

Amen
 
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jerry kelso

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It may not be a refined a reflection a bit lumpy and a bit bumpy i could not find the terms and the words to articulate it...to but it seems it was the holy spirit that promoted me when i was made aware of our lords words... unrefined maybe but it seems i was on the right track


I still think this homily could have been fleshed out some more especialy on the "my soul doth magnify the lord"

All praise and thanksgiving to you oh Lord God of Heaven and Earth for your divine inspiration given to your uneducated humbled and humiliated servent for your glorification and not my own for it is reward enough that you came to me in the prompting of the holy spirit and to be in your presence oh heavenly spouse in this world or the next is to be in paradise

Amen

mea Julia,

1. We are called Abraham's children because of salvation of righteousness by faith.
2. His metaphor is a spiritual metaphor as Mary birthed Christ, the Spirit births children spirituality.
3. Going down through the falopian tube meeting the preborn Lord is not part of the gospel of the spiritual aspect of the KoG.
It is the death, burial, and reign Christ not his birth.
4. We are to have faith before being in the womb and grow from grace to grace after being out of the womb and we do grow like a child to an adult in conjunction with learning through our sufferings.
Until we are reborn fully into the KoG concerning salvation would be being birthed from a sinner of darkness to a child of light.
5. Is it Mary worship or Respect for Mary's position as being obedient as birthing the Messiah?
Both views have been doctrines of different popes.
6. His connection of baptism of immersion is a Catholic doctrine of
Baptismal Regeneration and membership into the Catholic Church who they believe as the only church and all others such as Protestants are her children because she is the mother church.
All of these are not scriptural at all.
Growing up in Catholic dogma is not always scriptural.
Catholic history shows plenty of good biblical doctrine and men's doctrines being mixed in just like the Jewish leaders in Jesus day Matthew 15:9.
7. The Marian society use the word for Mary as co-redemptrix in the context of human cooperation etc.
I understand the gist, but due to Marian history it lays suspect as going through the back door of teaching co-redemptrix which that within itself would mean part of redeeming people from sin despite their denial of this implication and accusation leveled at them.

8. It is also applied to as Eve is the mother of all living Mary is the mother church and is why they believe the connection of Mary and her children of the church are the sun-Clothed woman. This is unscriptural for the Sun-Clothed woman is Israel.
For the fact that the RCC believes they are the mother church of all churches and the rest of the church such as Protestants are her children.
The RCC believe that the pope is the vicar of the earth alone and this is why the RCC and the Eastern Orthodox Church split up in the first place.
Metaphors are used as examples and can be couched in a koshered way but motive can expose whether real truth or not is being dictated. Jerry kelso
 
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mea kulpa

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1. Yes
2. Yes
3. I was talking metaphorically. Going through the fellopian tube could be considered learning about christianity meeting the preborn child is our where we first accept christ into our hearts but are not members of the family of God through baptism. Entering into the womb where we are entombed (death to self) into the amnionic fluid of baptism from which we emerge from at birth into a new life with Christ but still in infancy in the faith we are then nourished by our spiritual mother the church and our lady who magnifies the lord growing in wisodm and knowledge until we enter into adulthood of the shared ministry of christ of bringing the good news to the poor and suffering our own persecutions for the name of christ.
4. See 3
5. It is respect and veneration through understanding of the role our heavenly mother in our redemption by her obedience and faithfulness to God
6. The Catholic Church established in Rome is the mother church of other Catholic churches established throughout the world. I.e the church in rome is the mother church of the catholic churches in the united states, mexico, canada, france, germany, england etc.. she is not the mother of heresy/harlots but truth. If protestant communites were daughter/sister churches they would not have left their mother but since they abandond mother church they testify they were never of from mother church.. she is the mother of all christians but not the mother of protestant churches/communities

Vatican: Protestants Not 'Sister Churches'

The catholic faith may not be enirely based on scripture alone but is NEVER in contradiction to scripture

7. Our Lady played a significant role in our redemption not by her own merits but by the merits of Christ through whom he was born.. without her "yes" the messiah could not of been born of the flesh.
8. Isreal is the nation of God a nation is not her land mass but her people and the people of God are called the people of God because of their faithfulness Catholics are the nation of God the new isreal and the church establishment is the new jerusalem. Christ is her head... he is the vine we are the branches.
The orthodox churches are still Catholic since they hold Catholic doctrine but are schismatic they hold the same view except say it is we who are schismatic. Protestantism on the other hand has abandond much Catholic doctrine and have taught many false doctrine or heresy/heresies....many Catholics aka christians have fallen away or been born into these errors but through their baptism are rightfully called christians even if they reject their mother both the church and Our Lady
 
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FireDragon76

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I'm generally wary of long list of unsourced quote mines on the internet. The quotes from Anselm, Bonaventure, and Cajetan all represent rather late medieval Marian devotion; I am more interested in the quote attributed to St. Germanus. Western, Roman, hyperdulia is a well noted phenomenon, one that has received plenty of criticism from both Protestant and Orthodox circles; which is why I am curious about the source for the Germanus quote. Chiefly because I suspect the Germanus quote might be in the context of Mary's role as Theotokos, I have noticed that Eastern devotion to the mother of God is usually Christocentric, which is what appropriate Marian reverence should be. Veneration for the Blessed Virgin and the rest of the saints must ultimately be rooted and based in the glory of Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

One thing about the Orthodox is that they engage in a kind of hyperbolic language in devotion that is quite foreign to western Christians.
 
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Tangible

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”There is no one, O Most Holy Mary, who can know God except through thee; no one who can be saved or redeemed but through thee, O Mother of God; no one who can be delivered from dangers but through thee, O Virgin Mother; no one who obtains mercy but through thee, O Filled-With-All-Grace!”
--Saint Germanus of Constantinople, Patriarch of Constantinople
I don't have any problem with this statement. It was through St Mary that Our Lord Jesus Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit and was born, completely God and completely man.

As stated in the Athanasian Creed ...

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.

He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time;
and he is human from the essence of his mother,
born in time;
completely God, completely human,
with a rational soul and human flesh;
equal to the Father as regards divinity,
less than the Father as regards humanity.

Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however,
not by his divinity being turned into flesh,
but by God's taking humanity to himself.
He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence,
but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh,
so too the one Christ is both God and human.

So if you believe that salvation is found in Christ alone, and Christ was born in the flesh through St Mary, then it is true that no one can be saved or redeemed but through St Mary. This is not because of any merit or worthiness in her part, but through the Son of God who was incarnated through her.
 
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bbbbbbb

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I don't have any problem with this statement. It was through St Mary that Our Lord Jesus Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit and was born, completely God and completely man.

As stated in the Athanasian Creed ...

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.

He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time;
and he is human from the essence of his mother,
born in time;
completely God, completely human,
with a rational soul and human flesh;
equal to the Father as regards divinity,
less than the Father as regards humanity.

Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however,
not by his divinity being turned into flesh,
but by God's taking humanity to himself.
He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence,
but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh,
so too the one Christ is both God and human.

So if you believe that salvation is found in Christ alone, and Christ was born in the flesh through St Mary, then it is true that no one can be saved or redeemed but through St Mary. This is not because of any merit or worthiness in her part, but through the Son of God who was incarnated through her.

Actually, the wording of the statement is inept, at best. There is a clear implication that one must go through Mary to get to Jesus, not merely that Mary's role was to be the mother of Jesus, after which her divine part in God's plan had come to an end. This inept wording is hardly unique. The translated title of Theotokos as Mother of God, as we all know, has engendered enormous amounts of misunderstanding.
 
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mea kulpa

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Actually, the wording of the statement is inept, at best. There is a clear implication that one must go through Mary to get to Jesus, not merely that Mary's role was to be the mother of Jesus, after which her divine part in God's plan had come to an end. This inept wording is hardly unique. The translated title of Theotokos as Mother of God, as we all know, has engendered enormous amounts of misunderstanding.


Misunderstanding on who's part?

 
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Tangible

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Misunderstanding on who's part?
On both the part of those who would assign some kind of active role for the BVM in the salvation of sinners, and also on the part of those who completely ignore the passive role she had in our salvation, who do not hold her in high regard and honor as she who is the most blessed among women should be.
 
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overcomer

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Salvation in Mary?

Then why did she call God her savior (Luke 1:47)?

She was blessed, but co-redemptrix? co-mediator? no.

None but Jesus!

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

1 John2
2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
3 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Roman 3
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

All have sinned, including Mary. That's why she needed a savior herself and salvation is only in Christ Jesus.
 
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gabbi0408

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”There is no one, O Most Holy Mary, who can know God except through thee; no one who can be saved or redeemed but through thee, O Mother of God; no one who can be delivered from dangers but through thee, O Virgin Mother; no one who obtains mercy but through thee, O Filled-With-All-Grace!”
--Saint Germanus of Constantinople, Patriarch of Constantinople

Saints quotes on the Blessed Virgin Mary


It is impossible to save one's soul without devotion to Mary and without her protection.”
--Saint Anselm, Archbishop and Doctor of the Church

”Not only do they offend thee, O Lady, who outrage thee, but thou art also offended by those who neglect to ask thy favors . . . He who neglects the service of the Blessed Virgin will die in his sins . . . He
who does not invoke thee, O Lady, will never get to Heaven
. . . Not only will those from whom Mary turns her countenance not be saved, but there will be no hope of their salvation . . . No one can be saved without the protection of Mary.
--Saint Bonaventure, Cardinal-Bishop and Doctor of the Church

”We may seek graces, but shall never find them without the intercession of Mary.”
--Saint Cajetan, Founder of the Theatines

There is some explanation that is required. First of all, these ancient quotes employ flowery language that taken today with our very literal approach, can seem wrong and even blasphemous. However, people of that time would have understood what is said differently.

Additionally, Mary's role in salvation should not be diminished. God could have chosen to save us in many different ways. However, he chose to use a human woman, and have the Son become incarnate. God chose to bring us Salvation through Mary. Jesus came into the world through her and therefore one could say that salvation (meaning Christ) is only through Mary in that particular sense. This wording doesn't mean that Mary is the way to salvation without Jesus, but that Jesus and Mary are united in the plan for salvation in a unique way.

God chose to redeem the world by the sacrifice of his Son, who was born of a woman. Her cooperation, her "yes" to God, was integral to the plan.
 
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Kiwi Christian

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”There is no one, O Most Holy Mary, who can know God except through thee; no one who can be saved or redeemed but through thee, O Mother of God; no one who can be delivered from dangers but through thee, O Virgin Mother; no one who obtains mercy but through thee, O Filled-With-All-Grace!”
--Saint Germanus of Constantinople, Patriarch of Constantinople

Saints quotes on the Blessed Virgin Mary


It is impossible to save one's soul without devotion to Mary and without her protection.”
--Saint Anselm, Archbishop and Doctor of the Church

”Not only do they offend thee, O Lady, who outrage thee, but thou art also offended by those who neglect to ask thy favors . . . He who neglects the service of the Blessed Virgin will die in his sins . . . He who does not invoke thee, O Lady, will never get to Heaven . . . Not only will those from whom Mary turns her countenance not be saved, but there will be no hope of their salvation . . . No one can be saved without the protection of Mary.
--Saint Bonaventure, Cardinal-Bishop and Doctor of the Church

”We may seek graces, but shall never find them without the intercession of Mary.”
--Saint Cajetan, Founder of the Theatines

Again, we see catholicism DENYING the Bible and Jesus.

"Sinners receive pardon by the intercession of Mary alone." St. John Chrysostom

"All those who seek Mary’s protection will be saved for all eternity." Pope Benedict XV

Pope Pius IX in 1854 “Let all the children of the Catholic Church ... Proceed to worship, invoke, and pray to the most blessed Virgin Mary, mother of God. ”
 
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gabbi0408

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Again, we see catholicism DENYING the Bible and Jesus.

"Sinners receive pardon by the intercession of Mary alone." St. John Chrysostom

"All those who seek Mary’s protection will be saved for all eternity." Pope Benedict XV

Pope Pius IX in 1854 “Let all the children of the Catholic Church ... Proceed to worship, invoke, and pray to the most blessed Virgin Mary, mother of God. ”

Here is the document by Pope Pius IX regarding the Immaculate Conception. CATHOLIC LIBRARY: Ineffabilis Deus (1854)

No where can I find the quote you posted and attributed to Pope Pius IX, here in this document.

I am also unable to find any credible reference for the quote you posted supposedly by Pope Benedict XVI. Only anti-Catholic sites, or "apparent" lay Catholic sites with no references. The same goes for the supposed quote by St. John Chrysostom.
 
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Constantine the Sinner

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Again, we see catholicism DENYING the Bible and Jesus.

"Sinners receive pardon by the intercession of Mary alone." St. John Chrysostom

"All those who seek Mary’s protection will be saved for all eternity." Pope Benedict XV

Pope Pius IX in 1854 “Let all the children of the Catholic Church ... Proceed to worship, invoke, and pray to the most blessed Virgin Mary, mother of God. ”
The quote attributed to Chrysostom is bogus. In fact, he specifically says we should not rely on the intercession of saints, because God is not obligated to listen to saintly intercession, and that we should look primary to contrition and obedience to God, with intercession as an important supplement.
 
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Major1

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Here is the document by Pope Pius IX regarding the Immaculate Conception. CATHOLIC LIBRARY: Ineffabilis Deus (1854)

No where can I find the quote you posted and attributed to Pope Pius IX, here in this document.

I am also unable to find any credible reference for the quote you posted supposedly by Pope Benedict XVI. Only anti-Catholic sites, or "apparent" lay Catholic sites with no references. The same goes for the supposed quote by St. John Chrysostom.

It is worth discussing that the Fathers of the Church saw Mary as Mediator of All Grace.

Cyril of Alexandria in the fourth century writes:Hail, Mary Mother of God, venerable treasure of the whole world . . . it is you through whom the Holy Trinity is glorified and adored . . . through whom the tempter, the devil is cast down from heaven, through whom the fallen creature is raised up to heaven, through whom all creation, once imprisoned by idolatry, has reached knowledge of the truth, through whom nations are brought to repentance. (qtd. in Luigi Gambero, Mary and the Fathers of the Church: The Blessed Virgin Mary in Patristic Thought)
 
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Major1

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The quote attributed to Chrysostom is bogus. In fact, he specifically says we should not rely on the intercession of saints, because God is not obligated to listen to saintly intercession, and that we should look primary to contrition and obedience to God, with intercession as an important supplement.

The fathers of the Second Vatican Council taught:...........

[The] motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, 62)
 
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