Should Genesis be taken literally?

KWCrazy

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It would be nice if this naked assertion had an actual argument to support it. Please explain to us precisely why we cannot read the creation account as inspired myth?
Please explain to me why I cannot use your post to say that there are steel winged butterflies flying around the moon right now eating all the moon mites that are trying to get to earth.
Same answer.
Because that's not what it says.
 
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KWCrazy

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... the Genesis account was never intended as any kind of scientific treatment.
The could well be the only thing we agree on.
The creation of the earth did not conform to any natural laws.
God could reverse the direction of the earth's rotation tomorrow without consequence because He is the Lord of the universe; the king of kings.
 
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expos4ever

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It doesn't matter if he believes or not. What is significant is that an authority on Hebrew confirms that the intent of the author of Genesis intended it to mean exactly what it says; a six day creation.

OK, so we have one person, claimed to be an authority (and he may well be) who affirms a literal reading. I don't believe anyone ever denied that some scholars will take creation account literally.


He's only quoted to refute the claims of others that the majority of Hebrew scholars find the creation account a metaphor for evolution.
Who made such a claim? Certainly not moi.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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Yes, I can know. The Bible is 100% accurate. Anything contradicting it is wrong. I do not need proof.

Here's an interesting quote from Stuart Chase.
“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.

In other words, you don't really know. You just take it on faith, without reasons for your faith.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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But if you don't need it, why bother keeping it?

If someone comes along to torture me and gives me the choice on what part of my body to cut off, I'll certainly offer the little toe as one of the first options. But keeping it is not a strain. I suppose its also handy for showing creationists that we have vestigial parts, so I'll keep it around for that purpose.
 
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expos4ever

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If you take Genesis exactly as it is, no interpretation is required.
I do not say that I am without fault, but at least I don't have to wheel and deal to make what I believe fit the Scriptures.
I am not sure how you do not understand that every human being who reads words off a page, as you do just like the rest of us, cannot avoid interpreting.

You interpret - this is absolutely the case and your repeated denials of an obvious fact are troubling.

You have been educated about what words means and how their arrangement in a sentence impart meaning. With such a complex, culturally-specific, medium as language, there are bound to be errors in transmitting the writer's intent to the reader.

No one can deny they interpret when they read the Bible - it is simply not avoidable.
 
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expos4ever

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Please explain to me why I cannot use your post to say that there are steel winged butterflies flying around the moon right now eating all the moon mites that are trying to get to earth.
Same answer.
Because that's not what it says.
I have no idea what you are talking about. My question was clear and simple: Please explain how you know that the writer of Genesis did not intend to present inspired myth.
 
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expos4ever

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In other words, you don't really know. You just take it on faith, without reasons for your faith.
There is an ominous cloud that hangs over this thread. The extremely narrow thinking that would place a very simple-minded view Biblical authority over the plain facts of life is exceedingly dangerous. It may not be particularly dangerous relative to the particular issue of creationism - no one is directly hurt by the fact that some people believe the earth is only a few thousand years old. But that same stilted, irrational thinking is brought to bear on other issues.

Like global-warming, arguably an existential threat to life on this planet.

And when fundamentalists scour their Bible, find one text that claims that as long as the earth lasts, there will be summer and winter (or something to that affect), and then insist that global warming is a myth, the consequences can be outright dangerous.

To wit: The election of Donald Trump as President and his current actions of dismantling the initiatives intended to stave off climate change.

Evangelicals apparently voted 80 % for the Tangerine Tornado. So there is something larger at stake here than hollering at each other over whether Adam had a pet dinosaur.
 
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Speedwell

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If you read my earlier post, you will notice that I actually said that he is of Jewish extract. As for being a theologian, going to seminary is not required. Anyone who studies God's Word is by definition a theologian.

But if you want to make statements about him being a con man, why don't you try reading his book Refuting Compromise, where he refutes those who try to reconcile evolution and the Bible - using Scripture and evidence.
Waste of time. I'm not trying to reconcile evolution and the Bible. I don't care if he refutes it.
 
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Speedwell

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It doesn't matter if he believes or not. What is significant is that an authority on Hebrew confirms that the intent of the author of Genesis intended it to mean exactly what it says; a six day creation. I don't care if he doesn't believe a word of it. He's only quoted to refute the claims of others that the majority of Hebrew scholars find the creation account a metaphor for evolution.
But here's the thing I don't understand: Barr asserted that the author(s) Of Gen 1 meant six literal days, but he was not a YEC and was an outspoken critic of the doctrine of literal inerrancy. On the other hand, many Christian denominations you despise because they reject the doctrine of literal inerrancy reject evolution as well. I think your plot line needs cleaning up.
 
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KWCrazy

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But here's the thing I don't understand: Barr asserted that the author(s) Of Gen 1 meant six literal days, but he was not a YEC and was an outspoken critic of the doctrine of literal inerrancy.
The fact is that he is an expert on the language and he affirms that it means what it says. Whether he believes it or rejects it is irrelevant. I don't look to him as a spiritual leader, only as someone who confirms the meaning of the text.
On the other hand, many Christian denominations you despise because they reject the doctrine of literal inerrancy reject evolution as well.
Not despise.
People have the right to be wrong.
However, I consider it a very evil thing when someone attempts to undermine the faith of others.
I consider it an evil thing to misrepresent the Scriptures and undermine foundational doctrine
I consider it an evil thing to tell people they were not created by God; that Adam and Eve never existed; that the garden of Eden is a lie; that the fall of man is a myth, and that at least a third of the Scriptures are false. This does not serve God. It serves Satan.
 
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KWCrazy

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But here's the thing I don't understand: Barr asserted that the author(s) Of Gen 1 meant six literal days, but he was not a YEC and was an outspoken critic of the doctrine of literal inerrancy.
The fact is that he is an expert on the language and he affirms that it means what it says. Whether he believes it or rejects it is irrelevant. I don't look to him as a spiritual leader, only as someone who confirms the meaning of the text.
On the other hand, many Christian denominations you despise because they reject the doctrine of literal inerrancy reject evolution as well.
Not despise.
People have the right to be wrong.
However, I consider it a very evil thing when someone attempts to undermine the faith of others.
I consider it an evil thing to misrepresent the Scriptures and undermine foundational doctrine
I consider it an evil thing to tell people they were not created by God; that Adam and Eve never existed; that the garden of Eden is a lie; that the fall of man is a myth, and that at least a third of the Scriptures are false. This does not serve God. It serves Satan.
 
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Speedwell

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The fact is that he is an expert on the language and he affirms that it means what it says. Whether he believes it or rejects it is irrelevant. I don't look to him as a spiritual leader, only as someone who confirms the meaning of the text.

Not despise.
People have the right to be wrong.
However, I consider it a very evil thing when someone attempts to undermine the faith of others.
I consider it an evil thing to misrepresent the Scriptures and undermine foundational doctrine
I consider it an evil thing to tell people they were not created by God; that Adam and Eve never existed; that the garden of Eden is a lie; that the fall of man is a myth, and that at least a third of the Scriptures are false. This does not serve God. It serves Satan.
So what is you have against churches which reject YEC literal inerrancy and also reject evolution? It doesn't matter to you if the Bible is the true and historical inspired word of God--that's not enough for you. It has to be the literal, inerrant, perspicuous and self-interpreting product of plenary verbal inspiration or it's trash. Why is that?
 
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AnnaliseH

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So what is you have against churches which reject YEC literal inerrancy and also reject evolution? It doesn't matter to you if the Bible is the true and historical inspired word of God--that's not enough for you. It has to be the literal, inerrant, perspicuous and self-interpreting product of plenary verbal inspiration or it's trash. Why is that?

Because to say that it is anything less calls God a liar.
 
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AnnaliseH

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Waste of time. I'm not trying to reconcile evolution and the Bible. I don't care if he refutes it

So why do you interpret Genesis as a myth, if not to make it fit with the lie of evolution that you have been brainwashed with?
You tell us that, by believing in a literal translation of Genesis, we are ignoring the evidence of scientists and scholars who believe otherwise. You tell us that we are wrong, without being able to prove from the Scriptures why. You claim that just about everyone believes what you believe, yet ignore us when we show you evidence to the contrary - when we show you quotes from Evolutionists themselves, admitting that their theories don't work and that they are clinging to their theories purely by faith.
You are the one who will not even accept the possibility that you might be wrong. So entrenched in your tradition that any attempt to reason is met with "you hate me". Forgetting that, while our words might be hard, they are meant in love, because we have a duty to point out the fact when we see someone in error.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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So why do you interpret Genesis as a myth, if not to make it fit with the lie of evolution that you have been brainwashed with?
You tell us that, by believing in a literal translation of Genesis, we are ignoring the evidence of scientists and scholars who believe otherwise. You tell us that we are wrong, without being able to prove from the Scriptures why.

Nobody claims evolution is proved from scripture. Evolution is proved from the physical evidence.

For example, every land vertebrate has a recurrent laryngeal nerve that goes from the brain down to the heart and then back up the larynx. It does this because way back in a fishy ancestor that pass around a heart vessel was sensible. But in us land animals, it is a detour, but it is stuck going around the aorta and so can't gradually move up past that. Which is fine for us normal size critters like you and me, but when you see that happening in the giraffe . . . all the way down that neck, down to the heart, back up the neck to the larynx . . . you realize evolution can explain this but intelligent design cannot.

You claim that just about everyone believes what you believe, yet ignore us when we show you evidence to the contrary - when we show you quotes from Evolutionists themselves, admitting that their theories don't work and that they are clinging to their theories purely by faith.

Your attempts to cast doubt on evolution by means of word games is not working.
 
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Speedwell

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So why do you interpret Genesis as a myth, if not to make it fit with the lie of evolution that you have been brainwashed with?
How many time in this thread am I going to have to deal with this? As I have repeatedly said, if the theory of evolution were to be overturned tomorrow, it would not change my view of Genesis. In fact, I have only expressed my views on the Garden story, not Genesis as a whole. I explained my view in detail and was met only with a snotty rejoinder--not questions, not discussion, just a snotty rejoinder. (post #550) In fact I have never claimed the Garden story is a "myth." It is my belief that it is an etiology and I have not in this thread attributed that belief to anyone else--though it is, in fact, not mine alone.
You tell us that, by believing in a literal translation of Genesis, we are ignoring the evidence of scientists and scholars who believe otherwise.
You have said as much yourself.
You claim that just about everyone believes what you believe...
That is plain false. I have repeatedly stated the opposite. I have pointed out numerous Christian denominations which reject evolution. What I have said is that many of these denominations also reject literal inerrancy.
...yet ignore us when we show you evidence to the contrary - when we show you quotes from Evolutionists themselves, admitting that their theories don't work and that they are clinging to their theories purely by faith.
I generally ignore creationist quote-mining.
You are the one who will not even accept the possibility that you might be wrong.
I am quite prepared to accept the possibility I might be wrong.
So entrenched in your tradition that any attempt to reason is met with "you hate me". Forgetting that, while our words might be hard, they are meant in love, because we have a duty to point out the fact when we see someone in error.
I've lived in the Bible Belt. I know what your "love" is like when you think you have the upper hand.
 
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HenryM

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This is for all who stand for God's word, to remember and rejoice. I came upon this excerpt when going about something else, and it fits perfectly for this thread (following emphasis mine):

Psalm 138:2 "I will worship toward Your holy temple, and praise Your name for Your loving kindness and Your truth, for You have magnified Your word above all Your name."

Why has God magnified His Word above all His Name? A name is only as good as the word of the person behind that name. A man's name is esteemed when his word is good. A man's name inherently communicates the integrity of that man. This is why Proverbs 22:1 declares, "A good name is to be chosen rather than great riches..." and Ecclesiastes 7:1 says, "A good name is better than precious ointment..." God's Name is magnified because He is faithful to keep His Word. The nature and character of God's Name is revealed through His Word. The Bible, the Word of God, reveals the God behind His Name.

What God sanctions with His Name will never be inconsistent or contradictory with what He has revealed about Himself in His Word. Because God's Name is holy, He has chosen to sanctify it by magnifying His Word above His Name.



Also, to add, remember that with word we are made to be. God values the word highly than we can ever imagine.

So, to conclude with my take, God could never leave a man, in this fickle world, with nothing less than perfect compass made of His completely true word. For God has magnified His word above all His name.
 
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Douvie

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Sure - give me another opportunity to prove that a quote is fake, or clearly not relevant.

Well, maybe the folllwing quote will help you:

I am convinced that the battle for humankind's future must be waged and won in the public school classroom by teachers who correctly perceive their role as the proselytizers of a new faith.

“Religious Humanism is not merely an armchair religion, but one that seeks to provide “proselytizers of a new faith” and to “utiliz[e] a classroom instead of a pulpit to convey humanist values in whatever subject they teach,” according to the humanist Dunphy in the periodical The Humanist:

“I am convinced that the battle for humankind’s future must be waged and won in thepublic school classroom by teachers who correctly perceive their role as the proselytizers of a new faith: a religion of humanity that recognizes and respects the spark of what theologians call divinity in every human being. These teachers must embody the same selfless dedication as the most rabid fundamentalist preachers, for they will be ministersof another sort, utilizing a classroom instead of a pulpit to convey humanist values inwhatever subject they teach, regardless of the educational level—preschool day care or large state university. The classroom must and will become an arena of conflict between the old and the new—the rotting corpse of Christianity, together with all its adjacent evils and misery, and the new faith of humanism …

‘… It will undoubtedly be a long, arduous, painful struggle replete with much sorrow and many tears, but humanism will emerge triumphant. It must if the family of humankind is to survive.’”

j. Dunphy, “A Religion for a New Age,” The Humanist, Jan.–Feb. 1983, at pp. 23, 26 (emphasis added); as cited by Wendell R. Bird, Origin of the Species—Revisited, Vol. II, p. 257.

The above quote charts it out nicely. One of the PILLARS that up holds Humanism is evolution...but go ahead and disagree.
 
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