Jehovah's Witnesses - Is anything wrong with it?

Jim Langston said:

You quoted someone, wasn't someone from the bible so I didn't bother to read it.

Show me some scripture, not commentary. I am tired of hearing what some other man said some time ago. I am not talking to that other man and I am talking of the bible, not religions take on it.

Edit: I am not saying I don't believe the bible teaches that Jesus is God, because I believe it does. I am saying if someone doesn't believe that Jesus is God, yet they follow his commandments, the bible doesn't, to me, teach that they are condemned.

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DeaconDean said:

You know what?

You are a funny man.

You said:

"You quoted someone, wasn't someone from the bible so I didn't bother to read it."

The Apostle Paul quoted from a source outside the scriptures.

Paul quoted Menander in the book of Acts, Menander in 1 Corinthians, and Epimenides in the book of Titus.

in Acts 17:28 Paul quotes the first part of verse 28 comes from Cretica by Epimenides, and the second part of the verse from Hymn to Zeus, written by the Cilician poet Aratus.

In 1 Cor. 15:33, "Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.' comes from a current saying, forming a verse in MENANDER, the comic poet, who probably took it from Euripides [SOCRATES, Ecclesiastical History, 3.16]."

In Titus 1:12 where Paul says One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons." Paul uses an outside source Epimenides, a native either of Phæstus or of Cnossus in Crete, the original author of this line, which is also quoted by Callimachus. Epimenides is here called a prophet, not simply as a poet, but from his peculiar character as priest, bard, and seer; called by Plato θεῖος ἀνήρ and coupled by Cicero with Bacis the Boeotian prophet, and the sibyl (Bishop Ellicott); described by other ancient writers as a prophet (Alford)."

How do you think we got our Bible as it is today? Did God speak English 5000 years ago to the Hebrews? Did Jesus speak English 2000 years ago to the Israelites?

The Greek language ceased to be a working language some 16-1700 years ago. Somebody had to learn it, and that/those somebodies had to turn to sources outside the scriptures.

Show me the word "trinity" in the scriptures. Yet you cannot call yourself a "Christian" and not believe in the "trinity". Its not in the scriptures.

Any preacher, any Pastor worth his salt, not only reads and studies the Bible, but they will also study, commentary, the original languages, etc.

So for you to say what you said...your a funny man.

God Bless

Till all are one.

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Jim Langston said:

Do you remember Paul saying there is one man who esteems one day over another, leave him alone? Heavily paraphrased, yes, but the sentinent is there.

If someone believes Jesus is not God, and it does not affect their salvation, are you following Paul's advice?

If some follows Jesus' core teachings, follow the commandments, your neighbor as themselves and accepts Jesus' sacrifice for their sins, that is what the bible teaches. The rest is arguing over words. A god, the god, no, a trilogy, that is God's realm, that whole thing of you can't comprehend God, so why are we arging that which God says is incomprehendable in the first place?

Teaching salvation by works, however, is against the core of Christianity. We do works because we are saved, not to be saved. We repent to be saved.

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Jim Langston said:

As long as you teach what Jesus actually teaches, follow the commandments and love your neighbor as yourself while accepting Jesus' sacrifice for our sins then I don't care what else you teach. If you wish to deny this core fundament of Christianity then I will have to see words from the bible, not men. I quote the bible, not anyone else.

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Jim Langston said:

Now, if you have a verse that denies this, then I am interested. I am not interested in the rules of men. I don't want to hear what Fred or Tom or whoever thinks, I want to know what the bible says. In vain do men worship God, instead worshipping the rules of men.

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DeaconDean said:

Are you under the law, or grace?

Do you believe Jesus fulfilled all the "Law"?

The Decalogue, the "10 Commandments" you seem to throw up all the time, in this one verse alone, places the Decalogue along with the covenant(s).

Jesus is my Surety. He fulfilled them in my place, because God knew I couldn't.

No, I do not teach people to ignore the Decalogue. But I do teach that serve now to point us to Christ, as Paul taught.

And after the point of salvation, they are no longer the standard.



Like I said, your a funny man that while scripture is the norm, you completely ignored the other questions.

Do you think God spoke to the Hebrews in English?

Did Jesus speak to the first century Jews in English?

How do you think we got our Bible today?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using/quoting outside sources.

You also strike me as the sort of person who would stand up in the middle of services and call the pastor out because he used a Greek word, and then cited the source he learned it from.

Like I said, your a funny man.

God Bless

Till all are one.

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DeaconDean said:

Are you under the law, or grace?

Do you believe Jesus fulfilled all the "Law"?

The Decalogue, the "10 Commandments" you seem to throw up all the time, in this one verse alone, places the Decalogue along with the covenant(s).

Jesus is my Surety. He fulfilled them in my place, because God knew I couldn't.

No, I do not teach people to ignore the Decalogue. But I do teach that serve now to point us to Christ, as Paul taught.

And after the point of salvation, they are no longer the standard.



Like I said, your a funny man that while scripture is the norm, you completely ignored the other questions.

Do you think God spoke to the Hebrews in English?

Did Jesus speak to the first century Jews in English?

How do you think we got our Bible today?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using/quoting outside sources.

You also strike me as the sort of person who would stand up in the middle of services and call the pastor out because he used a Greek word, and then cited the source he learned it from.

Like I said, your a funny man.

God Bless

Till all are one.

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Jim Langston said:

I don't care if you have every man on existance denying it, the word of God trumps all. This is what Jesus said:

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

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Jim Langston said:

This is where you are when you ignore the words of Jesus and use the rules of man:

Matthew 15:8 “ ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’ ”

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DeaconDean said:

Did He not say this before His crucifixion?

What did Paul say about the "Law"?

"But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." -Gal. 3:23-27 (KJV)

I'm in: "after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster".

Have you managed to keep even the Decalogue fully?

If not, then this is your fate:

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." -Jas. 2:10 (KJV)

Nuff said.



I'm going to ignore the insinuation here.

You want to use the scripture and nothing else, by all means be my guest.

I prefer to study. If that means using commentary, or preaching aids, or referring back to the Greek language, then I will.

Like I said, your a funny man.

And, I'm not gonna debate you anymore.

You just made my ignore list.

God Bless

Till all are one.

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DeaconDean said:

Folks, this thread has gotten side tracked.

There are individuals who believe that all you need is the scripture. There is nothing wrong with that, however, I do know that in certain instances, the scripture is like looking into a mountain stream.

On the surface, it looks shallow enough to stand in, but stepping in, you find out it is over your head.

Without looking outside the scriptures, one can easily misunderstand scriptures. i.e.: "My bone cleaveth to my skin and to my flesh, and I am escaped with the skin of my teeth." -Job 19:20 (KJV)

Unless you realize that this is an "analogy", one can very well take this verse to mean that teeth have skin.

One could also take Jesus' words: "and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Lk. 22:36 (KJV)

To mean that Christians should arm themselves, as it was understood in the first century. However, so many times is the scripture referred to as a "sword". So Jesus meant to arm ourselves with the tools for spiritual warfare.

Also, taken for as it says:

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." -1 Jn. 3:6-9 (KJV)

Without studying, one would conclude that anybody who sins, whether willingly or accidentally, cannot be saved. Yet it is recorded in scripture that after Pentecost both Peter and Paul sinned. WILLINGLY!

Yes, you must believe in Jesus to be saved. However, there is more to it than that. You must believe all that scripture says about Jesus. Who He was. What He was. What He did. Why He did it. etc.

Scripture tells us:

"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." -Jas. 2:19 (KJV)

So there is absolutely nothing wrong with reading the commentary of more learned men than ourselves, or looking at the Greek language to find the meaning behind the word, or the specific reason why a certain word is used.

And that is what I do.

Now, back to the topic at hand.

The New World Translation, their bible, the New Testament was translated from the work done by Wescott and Hort. (Source)

According to them, and their translation (NWT) it boils down to there are three (3) "gods". God the father, Jesus "a" god, and the Holy Spirit is merely "an impersonal force". ("Is the Holy Spirit a Person?" at www.watchtower.org/e/200607a/article_01.htm)

They deny Jesus being the God-man" because Jesus prays to His heavenly Father (God). So how can Jesus be God, let alone the 2nd person of the "trinity"?

That was the answer I got from a JW I worked with.

I asked one question of this person to which to this day some 4 years later, they have not gave me an answer. "If Jesus prays to His heavenly Father, scripture is wrong. God (Jehovah) cannot be His Father. According to scripture the Holy Spirit is!

"And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." -Lk. 1:35 (KJV)

The JW's seek to explain away what they cannot comprehend.

Secondly, the JW's also teach that only 144,000 will go to heaven to be with Jehovah. (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 166-167, 361; Let God be True, p. 121.)

Jesus was only a perfect man, not God in flesh, Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, p. 306.

They teach an old heresy "annihilationism". (The soul ceases to exist after death, Let God be True, pp. 59, 60, 67; There is no hell of fire where the wicked are punished, Let God be True, pp. 79, 80.)

And this, is only a portion of what they teach.

Do your homework.

God Bless

Till all are one.

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Daniel Marsh said:

Scripture warns us of "another Jesus" which is exactly what they have.

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1stcenturylady said:

This is where I have to disagree. I've heard pastors say that about both JW's and Mormons. I've got news for everybody. No one knows God fully, and Jesus is God. Yes, the Mormons have less ground to stand on, but when it comes to the Bible, they use the KJV and believe what it says about Jesus. The JW's believe Jesus is their Savior, and that He is the Son of God. There mirror may be a little more warped than ours, but we don't see God clearly either in our dark glass. None of us will until Jesus comes again. You'll probably be shocked to see some Mormons and JW's there and have some of your church brothers missing.

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1. There Is One God
2. This God is Known In The OT As Jehovah/Yahweh ("The Lord")
3. God Is A Unique, Incomprehensible Being
4. Is God One Person?
5. The Father Of Jesus Christ Is God
6. Jesus Christ Is God
7. The Holy Spirit Is God
8. The Father, Son, And Holy Spirit Are Distinct Persons
9. Conclusion
10. What Difference Does The Doctrine Of The Trinity Make?

1. There Is One God
   1. One God: Explicit Statements
      1. OT: Deut. 4:35; 4:39; 32:39; 2 Sam. 22:32; Isa. 37:20: 43:10; 44:6-8; 45:5; 45:14; 45:21-22; 46:9
      2. NT: John 5:44; Rom. 3:30; 16:27; 1 Cor. 8:4-6; Gal. 3:20; Eph. 4:6; 1 Tim. 1:17; 1 Tim. 2:5; James 2:19; Jude 25
   2. None like God (in his essence)
      1. Explicit statements: Ex. 8:10; 9:14; 15:11; 2 Sam. 7:22; 1 Kgs. 8:23; 1 Chr. 17:20; Psa. 86:8; Isa. 40:18, 40:25: 44:7; 46:5, 46:9; Jer. 10:6-7; Micah 7:18
      2. Being like God a Satanic lie: Gen. 3:5; Isa. 14:14; John 8:44
      3. Fallen man become "like God" only in that he took upon himself to know good and evil, not that he acquired godhood: Gen. 3:22
   3. Only one true God: 2 Chr. 15:3; Jer. 10:10; John 17:3; 1 Thess. 1:9; 1 John 5:20-21
   4. All other "gods" are therefore false gods (idols), not gods at all: Deut. 32:21; 1 Sam. 12:21; Psa. 96:5; Isa. 37:19; 41:23-24, 41:29; Jer. 2:11; 5:7; 16:20; 1 Cor. 8:4; 10:19-20
   5. Demons, not gods, are the power behind false worship: Deut. 32:17; Psa. 106:37; 1 Cor. 10:20; Gal. 4:8
   6. How human beings are meant to be "like God"
      1. The image of God indicates that man is to represent God and share his moral character, not that man can be metaphysically like God: Gen. 1:26-27; 5:1; 1 Cor. 11:7; Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10
      2. The goal of being like Christ has the following aspects only:
         1. Sharing His moral character: 1 John 3:2; Rom. 8:29
         2. Being raised with glorified, immortal bodies like His: Phil. 3:21; 1 Cor. 15:49
      3. Becoming partakers of the divine nature refers again to moral nature ("having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust"), not metaphysical nature: 2 Pet. 1:4; see also Heb. 12:10; on the meaning of "partakers," See 1 Cor. 10:18, 10:20; 2 Cor. 1:17; 1 Pet. 5:1
   7. Are mighty or exalted men gods?
      1. Scripture never says explicitly that men are gods
      2. Powerful, mighty men are explicitly said not to be gods: Ezek. 28:2, 28:9; Isa. 31:3; 2 Thess. 2:4
      3. Men and God are opposite, exclusive categories: Num. 23:19; Isa. 31:3; Ezek. 28:2; Hosea 11:9; Matt. 19:26; John 10:33; Acts 12:22; 1 Cor. 14:2
      4. Moses was "as God," not really a god: Ex. 4:16; 7:1
      5. Ezek. 32:21 speaks of warriors or soldiers as "mighty gods," but in context they are so regarded by their pagan nations, not by God or Israel; cf. Ezek. 28:2, 28:9
      6. The elohim before whom accused stood in Exodus was God Himself, not judges, as many translations incorrectly render: Ex. 22:8-9, 22:28; compare Deut. 19:17
      7. The use of elohim in Psalm 82:1, probably in reference to wicked judges, as cited by Jesus in John 10:34-36, does not mean that men really can be gods.
         1. It is Asaph, not the Lord, who calls the judges elohim in Psa. 82:1, 82:6. This is important, even though we agree that Psa. 82 is inspired.
         2. Asaph's meaning is not "Although you are gods, you will die like men," but rather "I called you gods, but in fact you will all die like the men that you really are"
         3. The Psalmist was no more saying that wicked judges were truly gods than he was saying that they were truly "sons of the Most High" (Psa 82:6 b)
         4. Thus, Psa. 82:1 calls the judges elohim in irony. They had quite likely taken their role in judgment (cf. point 5 above) to mean they were elohim, or gods, and Asaph's message is that these so-called gods were mere men who would die under the judgment of the true elohim (vss. Psa. 82:1-2, 82:7-8)
         5. Christ's use of this passage in John 10:34-36 does not negate the above interpretation of Psalm 82
         6. The words, "The Scripture cannot be broken," means "the Scripture cannot go without having some ultimate fulfillment" (cf. John 7:23; Matt. 5:17). Thus Jesus is saying that what the OT judges were called in irony, He is in reality; He does what they could not do, and is what they could never be (see the Adam-Christ contrasts in Rom. 5:12-21 and 1 Cor. 15:21-22, 15:45 for a similar use of OT Scripture)
         7. The clause, "those against whom the word of God came" (John 10:35) shows that this "word" was a word of judgment against the so-called gods; which shows that they were false gods, not really gods at all
         8. Finally, these wicked men were certainly not "godlike" or "divine" by nature, so that in any case the use of elohim to refer to them must be seen as figurative, not literal
      8. Even if men were gods (which they are not), this would be irrelevant to Jesus, since He was God as a preexistent spirit before creation: John 1:1
   8. Are angels gods?
      1. Scripture never explicitly states that angels are gods
      2. Demonic spirits are not gods, 1 Cor. 10:20; Gal. 4:8; thus, being "mighty spirits" does not make angels gods
      3. Satan is therefore also a false god: 2 Cor. 4:4
      4. Psalm 8:5 does not teach that angels are gods
         1. Psa. 8:5 is paraphrased in Heb. 2:7, not quoted literally (cf. Psa. 68:18 with Eph. 4:8). In Psa. 8:5, elohim certainly means God, not angels, since Psa. 8:3-8 parallels Gen. 1:1, 1:8, 1:16, 1:26-28. Note that the Psalmist is speaking of man's exalted place in creation, whereas Hebrews is speaking of the lower place taken by Christ in becoming a man. Thus, Heb. 2:7 may not mean to equate angels with gods at all.
         2. Even if Heb. 2:7 does imply that angels are "gods," in the context of Hebrews 1-2 these angels would be those falsely exalted above Christ: Note Heb. 1:6 (which quotes Psa. 97:7, which definitely speaks of "gods" in the sense of false gods); and cf. Col. 2:16 on the problem of the worship of angels.
      5. Elsewhere in the Psalms angels, if spoken of as gods (or as "sons of the gods"), are considered false gods: Psa. 29:1; 86:8-10; 89:6; 95:3; 96:4-5; 97:7-9 (note that these false gods are called "angels" in the Septuagint); Psa. 135:5; 136:2; 138:1; cf. Ex. 15:11; 18:11; Deut. 10:17; 1 Chr. 16:25; 2 Chr. 2:5.
      6. Even if the angels were gods (which the above shows they are not), that would be irrelevant to Jesus, since He is not an angelic being, but the Son who is worshiped by the angels as their Creator, Lord, and God: Heb. 1:1-13.
   9. Conclusion: If there is only one God, one true God, all other gods being false gods, neither men nor angels being gods, and none even like God by nature - all of which the Bible says repeatedly and explicitly - then we must conclude that there is indeed only one God.
2. This One God Is Known in the OT as "Jehovah/Yahweh" ("The Lord")
   1. Texts where Jehovah is said to be elohim or el: Deut. 4:35, 4:39; Psa. 100:3; etc.
   2. Texts where the compound name "Jehovah God" (Yahweh Elohim) is used: Gen. 2:3; 9:26; 24:3; Ex. 3:15-18; 4:4; 2 Sam. 7:22, 7:25; etc.
   3. Only one Yahweh/Jehovah: Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:29
   4. Conclusion: Jehovah is the only God, the only El or Elohim
3. God Is a Unique, Incomprehensible Being
   1. Only one God, thus unique: See I.A.
   2. None are even like God: See I.B.
   3. God cannot be fully comprehended: 1 Cor. 8:2-3
   4. God can only be known insofar as the Son reveals Him: Matt. 11:25-27; John 1:18
   5. Analogical language needed to describe God: Ezek. 1:26-28; Rev. 1:13-16
   6. God is transcendent, entirely distinct from and different than the universe, as the carpenter is distinct from the bench
      1. Separate from the world: Isa. 40:22; Acts 17:24
      2. Contrasted with the world: Psa. 102:25-27; 1 John 2:15-17
      3. Created the world: Gen. 1:1; Psa. 33:6; 102:25; Isa. 42:5; 44:24; John 1:3; Rom. 11:36; Heb. 1:2; 11:3
4. Is God One Person?
   1. God is one God (cf. I above), one Yahweh, one Lord (cf. II above), one Spirit(John 4:24)
   2. However, the Bible never says that God is "one person"
      1. Heb. 1:3 KJV speaks of God's "person," but the word used here, hupostasis, is translated "substance" in Heb. 11:1 KJV; also in Heb. 1:3 "God" refers specifically to the Father
      2. Gal. 3:20 speaks of God as one party in the covenant between God and man, not as one person
      3. Job 13:8 KJV speaks of God's "person," but ironically the Hebrew literally means "his faces"
   3. The use of singular and plural pronouns for God
      1. Over 7000 times God speaks or is spoken of with singular pronouns (I, He, etc.); but this is proper because God is a single individual being; thus these singular forms do not disprove that God exists as three "persons" as long as these persons are not separate beings
      2. At least three times God speaks of or to himself using plural pronouns (Gen. 1:26; 3:22; 11:7), and nontrinitarian interpretation cannot account for these occurrences.
         1. A plural reference to God and the angels is possible in Isa. 6:8, but not in the Genesis texts: in Gen 1:26 "our image" is explained in Gen 1:27, "in God's image"; in Gen 3:22 "like one of us" refers back to Gen 3:5, "like God."
         2. The "literary plural" (possibly, though never clearly, attested in Paul) is irrelevant to texts in which God is speaking, not writing.
         3. The "plural of deliberation" (as in "Let's see now…") is apparently unattested in biblical writings, and cannot explain Gen. 3:22 ("like one of us").
         4. The "plural of amplitude" or of "fullness" (which probably does explain the use of the plural form elohim in the singular sense of "God") is irrelevant to the use of plural pronouns, and again cannot explain Gen. 3:22.
         5. The "plural of majesty" is possibly attested in 1 Kgs. 12:9; 2 Chron. 10:9; more likely Ezra 4:18; but none of these are certain; and again, it cannot explain Gen. 3:22; also nothing in the context of the Genesis texts suggests that God is being presented particularly as King.
   4. The uniqueness of God (cf. III above) should prepare us for the possibility that the one divine Being exists uniquely as a plurality of persons
5. The Father of Jesus Christ Is God
   1. Explicit statements: John 17:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; etc.
   2. The expression, "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ": 2 Cor. 1:3; Eph. 1:3; 1 Pet. 1:3
6. Jesus Christ Is God
   1. Explicit statements
      1. Isa. 9:6; note Isa. 10:21. Translations which render "mighty hero," are inconsistent in their rendering of Isa. 10:21. Also note that Ezek. 32:21 is (a) not in the same context, as is Isa. 10:21, and (b) speaking of false gods, cf. I.G.5. above.
      2. John 1:1 Even if Jesus is here called "a god" (as some have argued), since there is only one God, Jesus is that God. However, the "a god" rendering is incorrect. Other passages using the Greek word for God (theos) in the same construction are always rendered "God": Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38; John 8:54; Phil 2:13; Heb. 11:16. Passages in which a shift occurs from ho theos ("the God") to theos("God") never imply a shift in meaning: Mark 12:27; Luke 20:37-38; John 3:2; 13:3; Rom. 1:21; 1 Thess. 1:9; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 4:10-11
      3. John 1:18. The best manuscripts have "the unique God" (monogenês, frequently rendered "only-begotten," actually means "one of a kind," "unique," though in the NT always in the context of a son or daughter). Even if one translates "only-begotten," the idea is not of a "begotten god" as opposed to an "unbegotten god."
      4. John 20:28. Compare Rev. 4:11, where the same construction is used in the plural ("our") instead of the singular ("my"). See also Psa. 35:23. Note that Christ's response indicates that Thomas' acclamation was not wrong. Also note that John 20:17 does show that the Father was Jesus' "God" (due to Jesus becoming a man), but the words "my God" as spoken by Thomas later in the same chapter must mean no less than in John 20:17. Thus, what the Father is to Jesus in His humanity, Jesus is to Thomas (and therefore to us as well).
      5. Acts 20:28: "the church of God which He purchased with His own blood." The variant readings (e.g. "the church of the Lord") show that the original was understood to mean "His own blood," not "the blood of His own [Son]" (since otherwise no one would have thought to change it). Thus all other renderings are attempts to evade the startling clarity and meaning of this passage.
      6. Rom. 9:5. While grammatically this is not the only possible interpretation, the consistent form of doxologies in Scripture, as well as the smoothest reading of the text, supports the identification of Christ as "God" in this verse.
      7. Titus 2:13. Grammatically and contextually, this is one of the strongest proof-texts for the deity of Christ. Sharp's first rule, properly understood, proves that the text should be translated "our great God and Savior" (cf. same construction in Luke 20:37; Rev. 1:6; and many other passages). Note also that Paul always uses the word "manifestation" ("appearing") of Christ: 2 Thess. 2:8; 1 Tim. 6:14; 2 Tim. 1:10; 4:1, 4:8.
      8. Heb. 1:8. The rendering, "God is your throne," is nonsense - God is not a throne, He is the one who sits on the throne! Also, "God is your throne," if taken to mean God is the source of one's rule, could be said about any angelic ruler - but Hebrews 1 is arguing that Jesus is superior to the angels.
      9. 2 Pet. 1:1. The same construction is used here as in Titus 2:13; see the parallel passages in 2 Pet. 1:11; 2:20; 3:2, 3:18.
      10. 1 John 5:20. Note that the most obvious antecedent for "this" is Jesus Christ. Also note that the "eternal life" is Christ, as can be seen from John 1:2.
   2. Jesus is Jehovah/Yahweh
      1. Rom. 10:9-13: Note the repeated "for," which links these verses closely together. The "Lord" of Rom. 10:13 must be the "Lord" of Rom. 10:9, 10:12.
      2. Phil. 2:9-11. In context, the "name that is above every name" is "Lord" (Phil. 2:11), i.e., Jehovah.
      3. Heb. 1:10: Here God the Father addresses the Son as "Lord," in a quotation from Psa. 102:25 (cf. Psa. 102:24, where the person addressed is called "God"). Since here the Father addresses the Son as "Lord," this cannot be explained away as a text in which a creature addresses Christ as God/Lord in a merely representational sense.
      4. 1 Pet. 2:3-4: This verse is nearly an exact quotation of Psa. 34:8 a, where "Lord" is Jehovah. From 1 Pet. 2:4-8 it is also clear that "the Lord" in 1 Pet. 2:3 is Jesus.
      5. 1 Pet. 3:14-15: these verses are a clear reference to Isa. 8:12-13, where the one who is to be regarded as holy is Jehovah.
      6. Texts where Jesus is spoken of as the "one Lord" (cf. Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:29): 1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 4:5; cf. Rom. 10:12; 1 Cor. 12:5.
   3. Jesus has the titles of God
      1. Titles belonging only to God
         1. The first and the last: Rev. 1:17; 22:13; cf. Isa. 44:6
         2. King of kings and Lord of lords: 1 Tim. 6:15; Rev. 17:14; 19:16
      2. Titles belonging in the ultimate sense only to God
         1. Savior: Luke 2:11; John 4:42; 1 John 4:14; Titus 2:13, cf. Titus 2:10; etc.; cf. Isa. 43:11; 45:21-22; 1 Tim. 4:10; on Jesus becoming the source of salvation; Heb. 5:9, cf. Ex. 15:2; Psa. 118:14, 118:21
         2. Shepherd: John 10:11; Heb. 13:20; cf. Psa. 23:1; Isa. 40:11
         3. Rock: 1 Cor. 10:4; cf. Isa. 44:8
   4. Jesus received the honors due to God alone
      1. Honor: John 5:23
      2. Love: Matt. 10:37
      3. Prayer: John 14:14 (text debated, but in any case it is Jesus who answers the prayer); Acts 1:24-25; 7:59-60 (cf. Luke 23:34, 23:46); Rom. 10:12-13; 1 Cor. 1:2; 2 Cor. 12:8-10 (where "the Lord" must be Jesus, cf. 2 Cor. 12:9); 2 Thess. 2:16-17; etc.
      4. Worship (proskuneô): Matt. 28:17; Heb. 1:6 (cf. Psa. 97:7); cf. Matt 4:10
      5. Religious or sacred service (latreuô): Rev. 22:13
      6. Doxological praise: 2 Tim. 4:18; 2 Pet. 3:18; Rev. 1:5-6; 5:13
      7. Faith: John 3:16; 14:1; etc.
   5. Jesus does the works of God
      1. Creation: John 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; Col. 1:16-17; Heb. 1:2; Rev. 3:14 (where archêprobably means ruler); on "through" and "in" cf. Rom. 11:36; Heb. 2:10; Acts 17:28; cf. also Isa. 44:24
      2. Sustains the universe: Col. 1:17; Heb. 1:3, 1:11-12
      3. Salvation:
         1. In General: See C.2.a. above
         2. Forgives sins: Matt. 9:1-8; Mark 2:1-12; Luke 5:17-26; note that Jesus forgives sins not committed against Him.
      4. All of them: John 5:17-29 (including judgment, cf. Matt. 25:31-46; 2 Cor. 5:10)
   6. Jesus has all the incommunicable attributes of God
      1. All of them: John 1:1; Phil. 2:6; Col. 1:15; 2:9; Heb. 1:3
      2. Self-existent: John 5:26
      3. Unchangeable: Heb. 1:10-12 (in the same sense as YHWH); Heb. 13:8
      4. Eternal: John 1:1; 8:58; 17:5; Col. 1:17; Heb. 1:2
      5. Omnipresent: Matt. 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13; Eph. 1:23; 4:10; Col. 3:11
      6. Omniscient: John 16:30; 21:17; cf. John 2:23-24
      7. Incomprehensible: Matt. 11:25-27
   7. Jesus is "equal with God"
      1. John 5:18: Although John is relating what the Jews understood Jesus to be claiming, the context shows they were basically right: In John 5:17 claimed to be exempt from the Sabbath along with His Father, and in John 5:19-29 Jesus claimed to do all of the world of the Father and to deserve the same honor as the Father
      2. Phil. 2:6: Jesus did not attempt to seize recognition by the world as being equal with God, but attained that recognition by humbling himself and being exalted by the Father (Phil. 2:7-11)
   8. Jesus is the Son of God
      1. "Son" in Scripture can mean simply one possessing the nature of something, whether literal or figurative (e.g. "Son of man," "sons of thunder," "sons of disobedience," cf. Mark 3:7; Eph. 2:1).
      2. Usually when "son of" is used in relation to a person (son of man, son of Abraham, son of David, etc.) the son possesses the nature of his father.
      3. Jesus is clearly not the literal Son of God, i.e., He was not physically procreated by God.
      4. On the other hand, Jesus is clearly the Son of God in a unique sense (cf. "only-begotten son," John 1:14; 3:16, 3:18; 1 John 4:9) and in a preeminent sense (i.e. the term is more fitting for Him than for anyone else).
      5. Scripture is explicit that the Son possesses God's essence or nature (cf. F. above).
      6. Jesus' repeated claim to be the Son of God was consistently understood by the Jewish leaders as a blasphemous claim to equality with God, an understanding Jesus never denied: John 5:17-23; 8:58-59; 10:30-39; 19:7; Matt. 26:63-65.
      7. Jesus is therefore by nature God's Son, not God's creation or God's servant; Jesus is God's Son who became a servant for our sake and for the Father's glory (John 13:13-15; 17:4; Phil. 2:6-11; Heb. 1:4-13; 3:1-6; 5:8; etc.).
   9. Objections
      1. Prov. 8:22: This text is not a literal description of Christ, but a poetic personification of wisdom (cf. all of Prov. 1-9, esp. Prov. 8:12-21; Prov. 9:1-6), poetically saying that God "got" His wisdom before He did anything - i.e., that God has always had wisdom.
      2. Col. 1:15: Does not mean that Christ is the first creature, since He is here presented as the Son and principal heir of the Father (cf. Col. 1:12); thus "firstborn" here means "heir" (cf. Gen. 43:33; 48;14-20; Ex. 4:22; 1 Chron. 5:1-3; Psa. 89:27; Jer. 31:9); note that Col. 1:16 speaks of the Son as the Creator, nor creature (cf. E.1. above).
      3. Rev. 3:14: "Beginning" (archê) in Rev. as a title means source or one who begins, i.e. Creator (cf. Rev. 1:8; 21:6; 22:13); elsewhere Christ is called the archê in the sense of "ruler," Col. 1:18, cf. plural archai, "rulers," in Col. 1:16; 2:10, 2:15, also Luke 12:11; Rom. 8:38; Eph. 3:10; 6:12; Tit. 3:1; cf. Luke 20:20; Jude 6; 1 Cor. 15:24; Eph. 1:21.
      4. 1 Cor. 11:3; 15:28: Jesus is still subordinate to God, but as the Son to the Father; i.e., they are equal in nature, but the Son is subordinate relationally to God.
      5. John 20:17; Rom. 15:6; 1 Cor. 15:24; 2 Cor. 1:3; Rev. 1:6; 3:12: Jesus calls the Father "My God" because He is still man as well as God; note the distinction between "My God" and "your God" in John 20:17 (i.e., Jesus never speaks of "our God" including Himself with the disciples).
      6. Mark 13:32: Jesus' statement that He did not know the time of His return is to be explained by His voluntary acceptance of the humble form and likeness of a man (Phil. 2:7); in fact Jesus, as God, did know all things (John 16:30), and after His resurrection He does not including Himself as not knowing (Acts 1:6-7).
      7. Mark 10:17-18: Jesus does not deny being God, but simply tells the man that he has no business calling anyone "good" in an unqualified sense except God.
      8. Heb. 5:14: Jesus was tempted, cf. James 1:13; but note that Jesus could not sin, John 5:19.
      9. John 1:18: No one has seen God, but men have seen Jesus, e.g. 1 John 1:1-2; but note that no man can see the glorified Jesus either, 1 Tim. 6:16, and to see Jesus is to see the Father, John 14:9.
      10. 1 Tim. 1:17: God cannot die, but Jesus did, e.g. Phil. 2:8; but note that no one could take Jesus' life from Him, He could not remain dead, and He raised Himself: John 10:18; Acts 2:24; John 2:19-22.
      11. 1 Cor. 8:6: Father called God, Jesus called Lord: but here "God" and "Lord" are synonymous (cf. 1 Cor. 8:5; cf. also Rom. 14:3-12 for a good example of "God" and "Lord" as interchangeable); moreover, this text no more denies that Jesus is God than it does that the Father is Lord (Matt. 11:25); cf. Jude 4, where Jesus is the only Lord.
      12. 1 Tim. 2:5: Jesus here supposedly distinct from God; but Jesus is also distinct from (fallen) men, yet is Himself a man; likewise Jesus is distinct from God (the Father), but is also God.
      13. Deut. 4:12, 4:15-25; God not appear in a human form to Israel, lest they fall into idolatry; but this does not rule out His appearing in human form later after they had learned to abhor idolatry.
      14. In many texts Jesus is distinguished from God: He is the Son of God, was sent by God, etc.; in all these texts "God" is used as a name for the person most commonly called God, i.e., the Father.
7. The Holy Spirit Is God
   1. Equated with God: Acts 5:3-4; 2 Cor. 3:17-18
   2. Has the incommunicable attributes of God
      1. Eternal: Heb. 9:14
      2. Omnipresent: Psa. 139:7
      3. Omniscient: 1 Cor. 2:10-11
   3. Involved in all the works of God
      1. Creation: Gen. 1:2; Psa. 104:30
      2. Incarnation: Matt. 1:18, 1:20; Luke 1:35
      3. Resurrection: Rom. 1:4; 8:11
      4. Salvation: Rom. 8:1-27
   4. Is a person
      1. Has a name: Matt. 28:19; note that even though "name" might be used of a nonperson, here, in conjunction with the Father and the Son, it must be used of a person
      2. Is the "Helper"
         1. Is another Helper: John 14:16, cf. 1 John 2:1; note also that "Helper" (paraklêtos) was used in Greek always or almost always of persons.
         2. Is sent in Jesus' name, to teach: John 14:26.
         3. Will arrive, and then bear witness: John 15:26-27.
         4. Is sent by Christ to convict of sin, will speak not on his own but on behalf of Christ, will glorify Christ, thus exhibiting humility: John 16:7-14.
      3. Is the Holy Spirit, in contrast to unholy spirits: Mark 3:22-30, cf. Matt. 12:32; 1 Tim. 4:1; 1 John 3:24-4:6.
      4. Speaks, is quoted as speaking: John 16:13; Acts 1:16; 8:29; 10:19; 11:12; 13:2; 16:6; 20:23; 21:11; 28:25-27; 1 Tim. 4:1; Heb. 3:7-11; 10:15-17; 1 Pet. 1:11; Rev. 2:7, 2:11, 2:17, 2:29; 3:6, 3:13, 3:22.
      5. Can be lied to: Acts 5:3
      6. Can make decisions, judgments: Acts 15:28
      7. Intercedes for Christians with the Father: Rom. 8:26
      8. "Impersonal" language used of the Spirit paralled by language used of other persons
         1. The Holy Spirit as fire: Matt. 3:11; Luke 3:16; cf. Ex. 3:2-4; Deut. 4:24; 9:3; Heb. 12:29
         2. The Holy Spirit poured out: Acts 2:17, 2:33; cf. Isa. 53:12; Phil. 2:17; 2 Tim. 4:6
         3. Being filled with the Holy Spirit: Eph. 5:18, etc.; cf. Eph. 3:17, 3:19; 4:10
8. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit Are Distinct Persons
   1. Matt. 28:19
      1. "the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit": use of definite article before each personal noun indicates distinct persons unless explicitly stated otherwise; compare Rev. 1:17; 2:8, 2:26
      2. The views that "Father" and "Son" are distinct persons but not the Holy Spirit, or that the Holy Spirit is not a person at all, or that all three are different offices or roles of one person, are impossible in view of the grammar (together with the fact that in Scripture a "spirit" is a person unless context shows otherwise).
      3. Does singular "name" prove that the three are one person? No; cf. Gen. 5:2; 11:14; 48:6; and esp. Gen. 48:16
      4. "Name" need not be personal name, may be title: Isa. 9:6; Matt. 1:23. If a single personal name is sought, the name shared by all three persons is "Yahweh" or "Jehovah."
   2. Acts 2:38 and Matt. 28:19
      1. Neither passage specifies that certain words are to be spoken during baptism; nor does the Bible ever record someone saying, "I baptize you in the name of…"
      2. Those said to be baptized in the name of Jesus (whether or not the formula "in the name of Jesus" was used) were people already familiar with the God of the OT:
         1. Jews: Acts 2:5, 2:38; 22:16
         2. Samaritans: Acts 8:5, 8:12, 8:16
         3. God-fearing Gentiles: Acts 10:1-2, 10:22, 10:48
         4. Disciples of John the Baptist: Acts 19:1-5
         5. The first Christians in Corinth were Jews and God-fearing Gentiles: Acts 18:1-8; 1 Cor. 1:13
      3. Trinitarian formula for baptism (if that is what Matt. 28:19 is) was given in context of commissioning apostles to take the gospel to "all the nations," including people who did not know of the biblical God
   3. God the Father and the Son Jesus Christ are two persons
      1. The salutations: Rom. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:3; 2 Cor. 1:2; Gal. 1:3; Eph. 1:2; 6:23; Phil. 1:2; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:1-2; 1 Tim. 1:1-2; 2 Tim. 1:2; Tit. 1:4; Phm. 3; James 1:1; 2 Pet. 1:2; 2 John 3
      2. Two witnesses: John 5:31-32; 8:16-18; cf. Num. 35:30; Deut. 17:6; 19:15
      3. The Father sent the Son: John 3:16-17; Gal. 4:4; 1 John 4:10; etc.; cf. John 1:6; 17:18; 20:21
      4. The Father and the Son love each other: John 3:35; 5:20; 14:31; 15:9; 17:23-26; cf. Matt. 3:17 par.; Matt. 17:5 par.; 2 Pet. 1:17
      5. The Father speaks to the Son, and the Son speaks to the Father: John 11:41-42; 12:28; 17:1-26; etc.
      6. The Father knows the Son, and the Son knows the Father: Matt. 11:27; Luke 10:22; John 7:29; 8:55; 10:15
      7. Jesus our Advocate with the Father: 1 John 2:1
   4. Jesus is not God the Father
      1. Isa. 9:6: "Father of eternity" means eternal; compare other names formed with word "father": Abialbon, "father of strength" = strong (2 Sam. 23:31); Abiasaph, "father of gathering" = gatherer (Ex. 6:24); Abigail, a woman's name(!), "father of exultation" = exulting (1 Chron. 2:16).
      2. John 10:30
         1. Jesus did not say, "I am the Father," nor did He say, "the Son and the Father are one person."
         2. The first person plural esmen ("we are") implies two persons.
         3. The neuter word for "one" (hen) is used, implying essential unity but not personal unity (compare John 17:21-23).
      3. John 5:43: Jesus' coming in His Father's name means not that He was the Father because He had the Father's name, but that, while others come in their own name (or their own authority), Jesus does not; He comes in His Father's name (on His Father's authority).
      4. John 8:19; 16:3: Ignorance of Jesus is indeed ignorance of the Father, but that does not prove that Jesus is the one He calls "My Father."
      5. John 14:6-11
         1. Jesus and the Father are one being, not one person.
         2. Jesus said, "I am in the Father," not "I am the Father."
         3. The statement, "the Father is in Me," does not mean Jesus is the Father; compare John 14:20; 17:21-23.
      6. John 14:18: An older adult brother can care for his younger siblings, thus preventing them from being "orphans," without being their father.
      7. Colossians 2:9: Does not mean that Jesus is the Father, or that Jesus is an incarnation of the Father; rather, since "Godhead" (theotês) means Deity, the state of being God, the nature of God, Jesus is fully God, but not the only person who is God. "The Godhead" here does not = the Father (note that Jesus is in the Father, John 10:38; 14:10, 14:11; 17:21), but the nature of the Father.
      8. The Father and the Son are both involved in various activities: raising Jesus (Gal. 1:1; John 2:19-22), raising the dead (John 5:21; 6:39-40, 6:44, 6:54, 1 Cor. 6:14), answering prayer (John 14:13-14; 15:16; 16:23), sending the Holy Spirit (John 14:16; 15:26; 16:7), drawing people to Jesus (John 6:44; 12:32), etc. These common works do prove that the two persons are both God, but not that Jesus is the Father
   5. The Son existed before his Incarnation, even before creation
      1. Prov. 30:4: This is not predictive prophecy; "prophecy" in Prov. 30:1 translates massa, which is rendered elsewhere as "burden."
      2. The Son created all things: See VI.E.1
      3. Jesus was "with" (pros or para) God the Father before creation: John 1:1; 17:5; pros in John 1:1 does not mean "pertaining to," although it does in Hebrews 2:17; 5:1 (which use pros with ta).
      4. Jesus, the Son of God, existed before John the Baptist (who was born before Jesus): John 1:15, cf. John 1:14-18, 1:29-34
      5. Jesus, the Son, came down from heaven, sent from the Father, and went back to heaven, back to the Father: John 3:13, 3:31; 6:33; 6:38, 6:41, 6:46, 6:51, 6:56-58, 6:62; 8:23, 8:42; 13:3; 16:27-28; cf. Acts 1:10-11; cf. the sending of the Holy Spirit, John 16:5-7; 1 Pet. 1:12
      6. Jesus, speaking as the Son (John 8:54-56), asserts His eternal preexistence before Abraham: John 8:58
      7. The Son explicitly said to exist "before all things": Col. 1:17, cf. Col. 1:12-20
      8. These statements cannot be dismissed as true only in God's foreknowledge
         1. We are all "in God's mind" before creation; yet such passages as John 1:1and John 17:5 clearly mean to say something unusual about Christ.
         2. To say that all things were created through Christ means that He must have existed at creation.
         3. No one else in Scripture is ever said to have been with God before creation.
      9. Texts which speak of the Son being begotten "today" do not mean He became the Son on a certain day, since they refer to His exaltation at the resurrection(Acts 13:33; Heb. 1:3-5; 5:5; cf. Psa. 2:7; cf. also Rom. 1:4).
   6. Jesus is not the Holy Spirit
      1. The Holy Spirit is "another Comforter": John 14:16; compare 1 John 2:1.
      2. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit: John 15:26; 16:7.
      3. The Holy Spirit exhibits humility in relation to, and seeks to glorify, Jesus (John 16:13-14).
      4. The Son and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons in Matt. 28:19.
      5. The Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus: Luke 3:22.
      6. Is Jesus the Holy Spirit?
         1. 2 Cor. 3:17: the Spirit is here called "Lord" in the sense of being Yahweh or God, not Jesus (cf. 2 Cor. 3:16, citing Ex. 34:34; cf. 2 Cor. 3:17 in the Revised English Bible); note Acts 28:25-27, cf. Isa. 6:8-10.
         2. 1 Cor. 15:45: Jesus is "a life-giving Spirit," not in the sense that He is the Holy Spirit whom He sent at Pentecost, but in the sense that He is the glorified God-man; and as God He is Spirit by nature. All three persons of the Trinity are Spirit, though there are not three divine Spirits; and only one person is designated "the Holy Spirit."
         3. Rom. 8:27, 8:34: the fact that two persons intercede for us is consistent with the fact that we have two Advocates (John 14:16; Rom. 8:26; 1 John 2:1).
         4. John 14:18: Jesus here refers to His appearances to the disciples after the resurrection (compare John 14:19), not to the coming of the Spirit.
         5. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both involved in various activities: raising Jesus (John 2:19-22; Rom. 8:9-11), raising the dead (John 5:21; 6:39-40, 6:44, 6:54, Rom. 8:9-11), dwelling in the believer (John 14:16; 2 Cor. 13:5; Col. 1:27), interceding for the believer (Rom. 8:26; Heb. 7:25), sanctifying believers (Eph. 5:26; 1 Pet. 1:2), etc. These works prove that the two persons are both God, but not that Jesus is the Holy Spirit.
   7. The Father is not the Holy Spirit
      1. The Father sent the Holy Spirit: John 14:15; 15:26.
      2. The Holy Spirit intercedes with the Father for us: Rom. 8:26-27.
      3. The Father and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons in Matt. 28:19.
      4. Is the Father the Holy Spirit?
         1. Matt. 1:18; Luke 1:35: It is argued that the Holy Spirit is the Father of the incarnate Son of God; this argument ignores the fact that the "conception" is not a product of physical union between a man and a woman!
         2. The Father and the Holy Spirit are both said to be active in various activities; the resurrection of Jesus (Gal. 1:1; Rom. 8:11), comforting Christians (2 Cor. 1:3-4; John 14:26), sanctifying Christians (Jude 1; 1 Pet. 1:2), etc. The most these facts prove is that the two work together; they do not prove the two are one person.
9. Conclusion: The Bible teaches the Trinity
   1. All the elements of the doctrine are taught in Scripture.
      1. One God
      2. The Father is God.
      3. The Son is God.
      4. The Holy Spirit is God.
      5. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three persons (i.e., they are not each other, nor are they impersonal; they relate to one another personally).
   2. The New Testament presents a consistent triad of Father, Son, Holy Spirit (God, Christ, Spirit): Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:3-4; also Luke 1:35; 3:21-22 par.; Luke 4:1-12; John 4:10-25; 7:37-39; 7:14-16; 20:21-22; Acts 1:4-8; 2:33, 38-39; 5:3-4, 5:9, 5:30-32; 7:55-56; 10:36-38, 10:44-48; 11:15-18; 15:8-11; 20:38; 28:25-31; Rom. 1:1-4; 5:5-10; 8:2-4, 8:9-11, 8:14-17; 1 Cor. 6:11; 12:4-6, 12:11-12, 12:18; 2 Cor. 1:19-22; 3:6-8, 3:14-18; Gal. 3:8-14; 4:4-7; Eph. 1:3-17; 2:18, 2:21-22; 3:14-19; 4:4-6, 4:29-32; 5:18-20; Phil. 3:3; 1 Thess. 1:3-6; 2 Thess. 2:13-14; Tit. 3:4-6; Heb. 2:3-4; 9:14; 10:28-31; 1 Pet. 1:2; 1 John 3:21-24; 4:13-14; Jude 20-21; Rev. 2:18, 2:27-29.
   3. Therefore, the Bible does teach the Trinity.
10. What Difference Does the Doctrine of the Trinity Make?
    1. Sovereignty: Because the three persons have each other, we can be assured that God created us only to share the love they have and not as a means to His own end: Acts 17:25; John 17:21-26.
    2. Mystery: The triune God is totally unlike anything in our world, and therefore greater than anything we can comprehend: Rom. 11:33-36; Isa. 40:18.
    3. Salvation: God alone planned our salvation, came to save us, and dwells in us to complete our salvation: 1 Pet. 1:2; Eph. 1:3-18; etc.
    4. Prayer: We pray to the Father through the Son, and also pray to the Son directly, in the Spirit: John 14:13-14; Eph. 2:18; etc.
    5. Worship: We worship Father and Son in the Spirit: John 4:23-24; Phil. 3:3; Heb. 1:8; etc.
    6. Love: The love among the three persons is the basis and model for our love for one another: John 17:26.
    7. Unity: The unity of the three persons is the basis and model for the unity of the church: John 17:21-23.
    8. Humility: As the persons of the Trinity seek the glory of each other, so we should seek the interests of others above our own: Phil. 2:5-11; John 16:13-14.
    9. Sonship: We are "sons of God" as we are united with the Son of God by the work of the Holy Spirit and the adoption of the Father: John 1:12-23; Rom. 8:14-17.
    10. Truth: All those who wish to worship and love God must seek to know Him as He is in truth, for God, as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is truth: John 4:24; 14:6, 14:17; 15:26; 16:13.

Daniel Marsh said:

2 Corinthians 11:4
For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.

jumping down the page,

13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.


Mark 13:22
for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

Galatians 2:4
But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage.

Galatians 1:6-9New American Standard Bible (NASB)


6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you [a]by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be [c]accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel [d]contrary to what you received, he is to be [e]accursed!

Acts 20

29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears.

In Short,
Historic Christians who where taught by the Apostles themselves believes that Jesus is God. I can give you many quotes from them.

Jehovah's Witnesses deny that Jesus is God.

LDS believes that they themselves are gods in embryo.

Either all three groups are wrong or the Historic Christians are right because they can be traced to the Apostles.

There is no Early Church Fathers who taught all the LDS, nor JW's teach. But, there are such that teaches that Jesus is God.

Click to expand...

Daniel Marsh said:

Rather, the early church believed that Jesus is God from the time of the apostles on.

(For each of these quotes, I have underlined key phrases for the sake of emphasis.)

1. Ignatius of Antioch (c. 50–117): For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God’s plan, both from the seed of David and of the Holy Spirit. (Ignatius, Letter to the Ephesians, 18.2. Translation from Michael Holmes, Apostolic Fathers, 197)

2. Ignatius (again): Consequently all magic and every kind of spell were dissolved, the ignorance so characteristic of wickedness vanished, and the ancient kingdom was abolished when God appeared in human form to bring the newness of eternal life. (Ibid., 19.3. Holmes, AF, 199)

3. Ignatius (again): For our God Jesus Christ is more visible now that he is in the Father. (Ignatius, Letter to the Romans, 3.3. Holmes, AF, 229)

4. Ignatius (again): I glorify Jesus Christ, the God who made you so wise, for I observed that you are established in an unshakable faith, having been nailed, as it were, to the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ. (Ignatius, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 1.1. Holmes, AF, 249.)

5. Ignatius (again): Wait expectantly for the one who is above time: the Eternal, the Invisible, who for our sake became visible; the Intangible, the Unsuffering, who for our sake suffered, who for our sake endured in every way. (Ignatius, Letter to Polycarp, 3.2. Holmes, AF, 265.)

6. Polycarp of Smyrna (69–155): Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth . . ., and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead. (Polycarp, Philippians, 12:2. Holmes, AF, 295)

7. Epistle of Barnabas (written c. 70–130): “If the Lord submitted to suffer for our souls, even though he is Lord of the whole world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, “Let us make humankind according to our image and likeness,” how is it, then, that he submitted to suffer at the hands of humans?” (Epistle of Barnabas, 5.5. Holmes, AF, 393)

8. Justin Martyr (100–165): And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, so also was manifested at the judgment executed on Sodom, has been demonstrated fully by what has been said. (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 128. Translation from Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, I:264)

9. Justin (again): “Permit me first to recount the prophecies, which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts.” (Ibid., 36. ANF, I:212.)

10. Justin (again): Therefore these words testify explicitly that He [Jesus] is witnessed to by Him [the Father] who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ. (Ibid., 63. ANF, I:229)

11. Justin (again): The Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign, having, as we before said, become Man by a virgin . . .” (Justin Martyr, First Apology, 63. ANF, I:184)

12. Justin (again): For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God. (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 126. ANF, I:263)

13. Tatian (110–172): We do not act as fools, O Greeks, nor utter idle tales when we announce that God was born in the form of man. (Tatian, Address to the Greeks, 21. ANF, II:74)

14. Melito of Sardis (d. c. 180): “He that hung up the earth in space was Himself hanged up; He that fixed the heavens was fixed with nails; He that bore up the earth was born up on a tree; the Lord of all was subjected to ignominy in a naked body – God put to death! . . . n order that He might not be seen, the luminaries turned away, and the day became darkened—because they slew God, who hung naked on the tree. . . . This is He who made the heaven and the earth, and in the beginning, together with the Father, fashioned man; who was announced by means of the law and the prophets; who put on a bodily form in the Virgin; who was hanged upon the tree; who was buried in the earth; who rose from the place of the dead, and ascended to the height of heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father.” (Melito, 5. ANF, VIII:757)

15. Irenaeus of Lyons (120–202): “For I have shown from the Scriptures, that no one of the sons of Adam is as to everything, and absolutely, called God, or named Lord. But that He is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth. Now, the Scriptures would not have testified these things of Him, if, like others, He had been a mere man. . . . He is the holy Lord, the Wonderful, the Counselor, the Beautiful in appearance, and the Mighty God, coming on the clouds as the Judge of all men; — all these things did the Scriptures prophesy of Him.” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3.19.2. ANF, I:449)

16. Irenaeus (again): “He received testimony from all that He was very man, and that He was very God, from the Father, from the Spirit, from angels, from the creation itself, from men, from apostate spirits and demons.” (Ibid., 4.6.7. ANF, I:469)

17. Irenaeus (again): “Christ Jesus [is] our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father.” (Ibid., 1.10.1. ANF, I:330)

18. Irenaeus (again): “Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father, is the God of the living, who spoke to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers.” (Ibid., 4.5.2. ANF, I:467)

19. Clement of Alexandria (c. 150–215): “This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) and of our well-being, this very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, both God and man—the Author of all blessings to us; by whom we, being taught to live well, are sent on our way to life eternal. . . . . . . The Word, who in the beginning bestowed on us life as Creator when He formed us, taught us to live well when He appeared as our Teacher; that as God He might afterwards conduct us to the life which never ends” (Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Heathen, 1. ANF, II:173)

20. Tertullian (c. 160–225): For God alone is without sin; and the only man without sin is Christ, since Christ is also God.” (Tertullian, Treatise on the Soul, 41. ANF, III:221)

21. Tertullian (again): “Thus Christ is Spirit of Spirit, and God of God, as light of light is kindled. . . . That which has come forth out of God is at once God and the Son of God, and the two are one. In this way also, as He is Spirit of Spirit and God of God, He is made a second in manner of existence—in position, not in nature; and He did not withdraw from the original source, but went forth. This ray of God, then, as it was always foretold in ancient times, descending into a certain virgin, and made flesh in her womb, is in His birth God and man united.” (Tertullian, Apology, 21. ANF, III:34–35)

22. Hippolytus (170–235): “The Logos alone of this God is from God himself; wherefore also the Logos is God, being the substance of God.” (Hippolytus, Refutation of All Heresies, 10.29. ANF, V:151)

23. Caius (180–217) [in response to those who would question the deity of Christ] “Perhaps what they allege might be credible, did not the Holy Scriptures, in the first place, contradict them. And then, besides, there are writings of certain brethren older than the times of Victor, which they wrote against the heathen in defense of the truth, and against the heresies of their time: I mean Justin and Miltiades, and Tatian and Clement, and many others, in all which divinity is ascribed to Christ. For who is ignorant of the books of Irenaeus and Melito, and the rest, which declare Christ to be God and man? All the psalms, too, and hymns of brethren, which have been written from the beginning by the faithful, celebrate Christ the Word of God, ascribing divinity to Him.” (Caius, Fragments, 2.1. ANF, V:601)

24. Origen (c. 185–254): “Jesus Christ . . . in the last times, divesting Himself (of His glory), became a man, and was incarnate although God, and while made a man remained the God which He was.” (Origen, De Principiis, Preface, 4. ANF, IV:240)

25. Novatian of Rome (210–280) “For Scripture as much announces Christ as also God, as it announces God Himself as man. It has as much described Jesus Christ to be man, as moreover it has also described Christ the Lord to be God. Because it does not set forth Him to be the Son of God only, but also the Son of man; nor does it only say, the Son of man, but it has also been accustomed to speak of Him as the Son of God. So that being of both, He is both, lest if He should be one only, He could not be the other. For as nature itself has prescribed that he must be believed to be a man who is of man, so the same nature prescribes also that He must be believed to be God who is of God. . . . Let them, therefore, who read that Jesus Christ the Son of man is man, read also that this same Jesus is called also God and the Son of God” (Novatian, On the Trinity, 11. ANF, V:620.)
Did the early church affirm Jesus’ deity?

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1stcenturylady said:

This is where I have to disagree. I've heard pastors say that about both JW's and Mormons. I've got news for everybody. No one knows God fully, and Jesus is God. Yes, the Mormons have less ground to stand on, but when it comes to the Bible, they use the KJV and believe what it says about Jesus. The JW's believe Jesus is their Savior, and that He is the Son of God. There mirror may be a little more warped than ours, but we don't see God clearly either in our dark glass. None of us will until Jesus comes again. You'll probably be shocked to see some Mormons and JW's there and have some of your church brothers missing.

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