Total Depravity: some destined for Hell?

Ezra · Mar 10, 2003

TOTAL DEPRAVITY: ARE SOME DESTINED FOR HELL?
Calvinism, or more precisely Five-Point Calvinism, includes Total Depravity as one of its key teachings. If this teaching is found false on the basis of Scripture, then it must be called False Teaching. If it is found true, we should all believe it on the basis of Scripture. One Calvinist puts it this way: We insist, on the basis of the Scriptural passages quoted earlier, that man is by nature completely dead in sin. Apart from Christ man can do no good whatsoever before God. Man can not do any "natural" or "civil" good on this earth. Nor can any man exercise his will to "accept" Christ -- for also his will is bound by sin and death. (Rev Gise J. Van Baren).

There is no denying that There is none righteous, no, not one (Rom. 3:10). But is it really true that man cannot even exercise his will to accept Christ because his will is bound? Therefore only those who are elect get saved, and all others are ****** because even if they wanted to, they could not choose Christ?

CAIN AND ABEL
Lets start with Cain and Abel. Was Cains will BOUND so that he could not choose to offer the acceptable offerings to God? What did the LORD say to Cain after rejecting his offering: If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door (Gen. 4:7). Did God not say in effect: IF YOU CHOOSE TO DO WELL [the right thing] WILL YOU NOT BE ACCEPTED? AND IF YOU CHOOSE NOT TO DO WELL, will you not sin? Right here, right after the fall of Adam and Eve, we see that fallen mankind in the form of the first two human young men, retained the God-given ability to choose good over evil, just as Adam and Eve had the same ability. We can call this free will or we can say man is a free moral agent. The fact is, that because man was created in the image of God, he was given a will, just as God has a will. Gods will is always righteousness. But mans will is usually unrighteousness.

NOAH AND HIS DEPRAVED WORLD
Then we come to the time of Noah. And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually (Gen.6:5). In the midst of this total depravity, we read: But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD (Gen.6:8). Why did Noah find grace in the eyes of the Lord? Was he one of the elect or was he perfect? The Bible says neither of these. What the Bible really says (Heb. 11:7) is: "BY FAITH [not by election] NOAH, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear [reverence and godly fear], prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, AND BECAME HEIR OF THE RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH IS BY FAITH. Noah made a choice, which it would be reasonable to assume, was available to all. Listen to God or ignore God. God even allowed 120 years of grace. Noah chose the first option.

ABRAHAM AND HIS IDOLATROUS WORLD
BY FAITH [not by election] Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, OBEYED; and he went out, not knowing whither he went (Heb.11:8). Could Abraham have chosen to disobey? Absolutely. Unfallen Adam had a perfect environment but chose to disobey. Abraham had an idolatrous environment and chose to obey. Did God compel him to obey? Is anyone today compelled to obey the Gospel? The world is commanded to obey the Gospel, but never compelled.

PHAROAH AND MOSES
Some people use Pharoah as an example of Divine election to damnation (Rom. 9:18). Is that really so? God knew that Pharoah would resist, and resist, and resist, so eventually God would harden Pharoahs heart unto damnation. And that is true even today. Anyone can resist the Holy Spirit repeatedly until they cannot get saved, because there is a limit to Gods pleadings with man: My Spirit shall not always strive with man (Gen.6:3). So it was that in His Divine foreknowledge, God knew of Pharoahs intransigence already, even before Moses went to plead with him: But Pharoah shall not hearken unto you (Exod. 7:4).

JOSHUA AND ISRAEL
Here we have the clearest example that all people are free moral agents, even the chosen people of Israel: And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY WHOM YE WILL SERVE But as for me and my house, WE WILL SERVE THE LORD. (Josh. 24:15). This choice would be meaningless unless they were really free to choose. The Law was given to be chosen freely, yet Israel generally disobeyed, even though they were "the elect, the chosen, the peculiar people" (Deut.14:2).

THE VERY RICH RULER AND CHRIST
And a certain ruler asked Him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life (Matt. 19:16-24; Luke 18:18-25). This ruler was given a choice -- love God or love your wealth. And when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions (Matt.19:22). He made the wrong choice even when the Divine Master gave Him the right choice. Was he elected to damnation?

CONCLUSION
And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. AND WHOSOEVER WILL, LET HIM TAKE OF THE WATER OF LIFE FREELY (Rev.22:17).

settergren · Mar 11, 2003

Are there people in hell right now? Are there people on this earth who will end up in hell? If so, ss God aware of this? Does God know who these people are? Was God aware of those who have already gone to hell? If so, then did those people who ended up in hell, or those who will end up in hell, really have a choice in the matter? If God knew they were going to hell before they were even born (or anyone was born for that matter) then there was NO POSSIBLE WAY that they could have done something to get to heaven becuase we allready know they are going to hell.

If a certain indiviual ends up in hell after they die, and God knew about this full well before he even founded the earth, then how is it possible to say that that individual wasn't predestined there?

Reformationist · Mar 11, 2003

Nicely said settergren.

God bless

Ezra · Mar 12, 2003

Today at 03:12 AM settergren said this in Post #2 
If God knew they were going to hell before they were even born (or anyone was born for that matter) then there was NO POSSIBLE WAY that they could have done something to get to heaven becuase we allready know they are going to hell.
If a certain indiviual ends up in hell after they die, and God knew about this full well before he even founded the earth, then how is it possible to say that that individual wasn't predestined there?

Settergren: Did you notice that you said "we already know"?  You probably meant "God already knows".  Anyway, to focus on the real issue which is: SINCE GOD ALREADY KNOWS EVERYTHING, AND THAT KNOWLEDGE INCLUDES THE INDIVIDUALS WHO WILL BE IN THE LAKE OF FIRE, IT FOLLOWS THAT HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR PLIGHT. True or False?

To properly answer this, we should first look at Adam and Eve. Did God already know that they would "transgress" His commandment? Yes [He knows absolutely everything that has ever been or will ever be.  Amazing. Awesome.  But true!]  Did He go ahead and still create them? Yes.  Did He purpose that they disobey Him?  God forbid! Did they have a "will" to freely choose to love God above themselves? Yes.  Did they choose to disobey knowing the penalty in advance? Yes.  So now do you hold God responsible for their choice? And if they chose freely, did not Cain and Abel also choose freely, but in opposite directions? Did not God specifically say to Cain, you could even now [after bringing the wrong offering] choose to do right and it will be accepted? (Gen.4:6-7).  Even after this gracious invitation, Cain rebelled and instead chose to hate his brother for choosing the right thing, and finally murdered him. Now is this not true for all mankind? We all say "Decisions, decisions, decisions" because every day we must make choices. That is the beauty of God's special creations -- mankind and angels.  We can choose to love God or choose to love ourselves, pagan idols, or money [all of which constitutes idolatry].  Does God compel us to make wrong choices? God forbid!

Now when we come to the offer of salvation -- the free gift of eternal life, how does God invite? "THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM" (Jn. 3:16)..."WHOSOEVER WILL LET HIM TAKE OF THE WATER OF LIFE FREELY" (Rev.22:17). "HO EVERY ONE THAT THIRSTETH, COME YE TO THE WATERS, AND HE THAT HATH NO MONEY; COME YE, BUY, AND EAT; YEA, COME, BUY WINE AND MILK WITHOUT MONEY AND WITHOUT PRICE" (Isa.55:1).Is this not a universal invitation to ALL who are thirsty? And is there not a choice involved?  And if all are freely invited to this feast, then does it not stand to reason that all may choose to come, IF THEY SO WISH? Do you remember the parable of the invitation given out by the "certain man" [the King] to those who should come to His feast?  They actually refused and MADE EXCUSES (Luke 14:16-24).  Do you hold the King responsible for their foolishness? Similarly none in hell can say that I am here because God chose to put me here. They simply rejected the offer of eternal life by their own choosing.

Reformationist · Mar 12, 2003

Today at 12:29 PM Ezra said this in Post #4

To properly answer this, we should first look at Adam and Eve. Did God already know that they would "transgress" His commandment? Yes [He knows absolutely everything that has ever been or will ever be.  Amazing. Awesome.  But true!]

I agree.

Did He go ahead and still create them? Yes.

Obviously, I agree.

Did He purpose that they disobey Him?  God forbid!

I don't know what you mean by "did He purpose" but I will say that it was most definitely part of His Plan.

Did they have a "will" to freely choose to love God above themselves? Yes.

Yes, I agree.  They were "free," at least moreso than even regenerate man.

Did they choose to disobey knowing the penalty in advance? Yes.

I agree.

So now do you hold God responsible for their choice?

I don't nor do I think that is what settergren said.  He said that the course of events, including the Fall, followed a predestined path.  He did not say God tempted them to sin, nor did he say that God forced them to sin.  They freely chose to sin because they placed themselves as judges over God's relevatory promise of the penalty for transgression.

And if they chose freely, did not Cain and Abel also choose freely, but in opposite directions?

For probably the trillionth time on this MB let me reiterate that it is impossible, illogical, and ill founded to compare the nature and relationship to God of pre-Fall man to that of post-Fall man.  This is a strawman because the basic premise of this question assumes that Cain and Abel were of the same nature as Adam and Eve prior to the Fall, i.e., not fallen, and that their relationship with God was perfect as was Adam and Eve's prior to the Fall.

Did not God specifically say to Cain, you could even now [after bringing the wrong offering] choose to do right and it will be accepted? (Gen.4:6-7).

No.  That's not what that verse says at all, nor is that the implication that is being made.  What the verse says is, "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door."  There is no "you could even now choose to do right and it will be accepted."  The reason Cain didn't "choose the right thing to do" wasn't because he chose to sin.  The reason he sinned is because he was a sinner.  We're not sinners because we sin.  We sin because we're sinners.  Cain just chose according to his fallen nature, therefore it was a sinful choice.  "A fallen nature" is all Cain had.  He would not have chosen in a righteous manner because he was unrighteous.

Now is this not true for all mankind?

What are you asking?  Are you asking if all mankind is inherently good and able to choose righteously?  If so, I'd say absolutely, unequivocably NO.

We all say "Decisions, decisions, decisions" because every day we must make choices. That is the beauty of God's special creations -- mankind and angels.

Yes, we all choose to make decisions.  That does not mean that we can make any decision.  It just so happens that "loving God" or "choosing to be saved" is not a decision that an unregenerate creature will ever make.

We can choose to love God or choose to love ourselves, pagan idols, or money [all of which constitutes idolatry].

Fallen creations only choose unrighteously:

Romans 8:7,8
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.  So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

The "carnal" mind is the mind of a fallen person.  The mind of a fallen person considers God, and His Law, the enemy.  The fallen, carnal mind does not look at the law as the Truth (it is not subject to the Law), nor can it (nor indeed can be).  Those who are fallen (those who are in the flesh) cannot please God.  The fallen mind can, and will, only choose unrighteously.  We must be reborn (saved) before we can see (choose) the Kingdom of God.  You didn't have a say so in your first birth yet you contend that you had a say so in your second one.

Does God compel us to make wrong choices? God forbid!

Absolutely not.  Fallen man freely chooses unrighteously.  It is their greatest desire to please the flesh so that is what they freely do.  FYI, by "freely" I mean "uncoerced by God."  "Freely" does not mean "free from outside influence." 

Now when we come to the offer of salvation

Where?  Where is there ever an "offer of salvation?"  Salvation is something done to a spiritually dead, unrighteous creation.  What choice do you think an unregenerate person would make?  They would always choose unrighteously.  Always.

Ezra, the reformed view does not ever "blame" God for the sinful choices of man.  The difference is we don't credit man with making the decision to serve and worship God while they are fallen.  A fallen creature considers God an enemy, not Lord.  We must be born again to see the Kingdom of God.  Being "born again" is something done to us, from above.  Were you saved because you asked to be?  Were you given eternal life because you asked for it?  If you believe the answer is "yes" then understand that that would make you God's counselor, and my friend, no one is God's counselor:

Romans 11:34
"For who has known the mind of the LORD?
        Or who has become His counselor?"

God bless

settergren · Mar 12, 2003

Ezra,

You asked if some people are predestined to hell. Here is my second response that is presented in a logical format.

1) Are their people in hell right now? Yes, or course.

2) Rom. 8:30 "Those whom He FOREKNEW he PREDESTINED, those whom he PREDESTINED He CALLED, those whom He CALLED he JUSTIFIED, those whom He JUSTIFIED He also GLORIFIED!"

Would you agree that the people spoken about in this passage are either in heaven right now or are going to be in heaven? Of course, if you're justified and glorified how can you go anywhere else but heaven. However, This does not include every human being, otherwise no one is in hell and this would violate statement number 1. Thus, not everyone is predestined to heaven.

3) Those who don't go to heaven go to hell. There is no middle ground, as nice as that would be for some people.

4) Those who weren't predestined to heaven are either in hell or are going to be in hell. This should be easily derived from the previous points.

5) Alright then, at this point we can say that those whom God did NOT know foreknow, he did NOT predestine, he did NOT call, he did NOT justify and he also did NOT glorify.

It is obvious that these people were destined for hell since they weren't destined for heaven and there is no other place to go.

Meaning, there are people on this planet that will not be saved and end up in hell no matter how much preaching they hear, despite how good they are, and no matter how much you pray for them. I don't see how this can be refuted.

endure · Mar 12, 2003

your questions have easy answers, but here is simple proof that it can never be that God wills any man to be in hell, and there is no man whom cannot be saved.

1 timothy 4.10

"..God, who is the saviour of all men, specailly those that believe."

God is the saviour of all men, whether they believe and are saved or not, there is no man who does not have salvation stored up for him in Christ if he will take it. hes the saviour of all men.

1 timothy 2.4
who will have ALL men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Gods will is for all men to be saved
oh and in the greek, that word ALL means.....ALL.

1 timothy 2.6
who gave himself a ransom for ALL...

Jesus Christ died as the ransom for ALL peoples everywhere.
In Christs death is the fullness of redemption that is extended to EVERYMAN that lives.
Jesus died for everyman.
so you cannot say that there are any people who God doesnt save, or who are predestined to go to hell.

whatever questions you have or confusion you find, it doesnt change what the scripture says about this, God wants EVERY MAN in heavon.

I dont care about esau or pharaoh, none of that matters or really applies, God wants every man to be saved.

Reformationist · Mar 12, 2003

Today at 07:11 PM endure said this in Post #7 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=709540#post709540)

your questions have easy answers, but here is simple proof that it can never be that God wills any man to be in hell, and there is no man whom cannot be saved.

This isn't a question of whether God "can" save someone, just whether He will, and if He will not, why not. You say it's because they choose not to "believe." The reformed position is that God decided in eternity who would be saved and who would not and He did not base it on their works, like "believing." Additionally, someone whom God does not sovereignly rebirth will not ever "believe." "Believing" is a result of being born again, not a means to be born again.

1 timothy 4.10

"..God, who is the saviour of all men, specailly those that believe."

God is the saviour of all men, whether they believe and are saved or not, there is no man who does not have salvation stored up for him in Christ if he will take it. hes the saviour of all men.

Two things. First, the word "pas" used here for "all" does not always mean "all people" so we must determine the correct meaning from the context. FYI, "pas" can also mean "believers only." So, what does the rest of the text imply. You understand this to mean God is the Savior of all men even if they aren't saved. All I can say to that is, "Huh?" How can God be the Savior of someone who is not saved? That makes absolutely no sense. The way you're interpreting the text it seems as if you are saying God is the potential Savior of all men, but the actual Savior of all who believe. If that be the case I have to refer you back to the verse which says, "God, who is the Savior of all men." It doesn't say "God, who can be the Savior of all men." It says He "is." So, if God "is" the Savior of all men, then "all" cannot be referring to those that are not saved or else God could not be their Savior.

1 timothy 2.4
who will have ALL men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Gods will is for all men to be saved
oh and in the greek, that word ALL means.....ALL.

The word is "pas" and does not always mean all. Also, I'd like to ask, if you think it was God's Will, His sovereign desire, that every single person be saved and, in fact, that is the very purpose for which He sent His Son, then you are saying that God failed, unless, of course, you believe that our specific salvation was not God's intended purpose in sending His Son but rather just to give us the opportunity to be saved. In which case that would mean that God "saved" no one. He just offered salvation.

1 timothy 2.6
who gave himself a ransom for ALL...

Jesus Christ died as the ransom for ALL peoples everywhere.

If their eternal salvation was not what was purchased by His "ransom" then what was?

In Christs death is the fullness of redemption that is extended to EVERYMAN that lives.

Goodness man...

Every man that lives lives BECAUSE of redemption. We don't get redemption because we live. You've got it backwards.

so you cannot say that there are any people who God doesnt save, or who are predestined to go to hell.

Why not? It's the Truth of the Gospel and it is even explicitly said in Scripture:

Romans 9:21-23
Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTION, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had PREPARED BEFOREHAND FOR GLORY

Whatever questions you have or confusion you find, it doesnt change what the scripture says about this, God wants EVERY MAN in heavon.

And what? He either can't make that happen or He chooses not to make it happen? Gee, that sounds like love.

I dont care about esau or pharaoh, none of that matters or really applies, God wants every man to be saved.

Of course you don't care about it because it goes against what you're saying so let's just disregard it.

Ezra · Mar 12, 2003

For probably the trillionth time on this MB let me reiterate that it is impossible, illogical, and ill founded to compare the nature and relationship to God of pre-Fall man to that of post-Fall man. This is a strawman because the basic premise of this question assumes that Cain and Abel were of the same nature as Adam and Eve prior to the Fall, i.e., not fallen, and that their relationship with God was perfect as was Adam and Eve's prior to the Fall. -- Reformationist

No one has ever made this ridiculous assumption at any time when questioning this false doctrine. After the Fall Adam and Eve had two sons with fallen natures BUT THE ABILITY TO MAKE CHOICES FREELY. And that is the crux of the matter. Calvinists deny this ability while the Bible teaches it from Genesis to Revelation. If it were not true that fallen sinful human beings could still freely choose the gift of eternal life, then God the Holy Spirit would not say: "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come (Isa.55:1). And WHOSOEVER WILL [absolutely anyone who wants to and "wills" to, regardless of any and all considerations] , let him take of the water of life FREELY." (Rev.22:17). This is the Word of God. I trust none of us would dare say that God is mocking those destined for eternal hell in this verse.

Reformationist · Mar 13, 2003

Today at 09:49 PM Ezra said this in Post #9 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=709835#post709835)

No one has ever made this ridiculous assumption at any time when questioning this false doctrine.

Which "false doctrine" are you referring to?

After the Fall Adam and Eve had two sons with fallen natures BUT THE ABILITY TO MAKE CHOICES FREELY.

Were they not in bondage to their sin, as the Word says? Is it your contention that fallen man can make righteous decisions?

And that is the crux of the matter. Calvinists deny this ability while the Bible teaches it from Genesis to Revelation. If it were not true that fallen sinful human beings could still freely choose the gift of eternal life, then God the Holy Spirit would not say: "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come (Isa.55:1). And WHOSOEVER WILL [absolutely anyone who wants to and "wills" to, regardless of any and all considerations] , let him take of the water of life FREELY." (Rev.22:17).

So man fell from grace (Gen 3), inherited a fallen, depraved, unrighteous nature that does not seek God, does not understand the Truth, does not fear God, does no good, (Rom 3:10-18) that is in bondage to it sinfulness (Rom 8:21; Gal 4:3; Heb 2:15; 2 Peter 2:19), does not subject itself to the Law of God, nor does it desire to be subject to God, views God as an enemy, and can do NOTHING to please God and you say that someone who fits this description looks at the truth presented in Creation or the Bible and says, "You know, I think maybe that's the truth?"

This is the Word of God. I trust none of us would dare say that God is mocking those destined for eternal hell in this verse.

Of course He's not "mocking" them. But you make many assumptions. The verses say, "Whosoever will..." It doesn't say "everyone can..." You assume that because God demands fealty from all that He gives all the neccessary and sufficient grace to do so. God is Just. He is not obligated to give you the grace to overcome your natural desire to rebel. If He does so it's His mercy. You just assume that God owes His mercy to all men. The truth is that the only reason any of us "choose" to live according to the Gospel is because of the efficacious grace of God. His Word does not return to Him without accomplishing exactly what He purposed it for. You do not, nor does anyone else, "choose God" apart from God. Were He to not give you the grace to do so, you wouldn't.

God bless

Received · Mar 13, 2003

Are there people in hell right now? Are there people on this earth who will end up in hell? If so, ss God aware of this? Does God know who these people are? Was God aware of those who have already gone to hell? If so, then did those people who ended up in hell, or those who will end up in hell, really have a choice in the matter? If God knew they were going to hell before they were even born (or anyone was born for that matter) then there was NO POSSIBLE WAY that they could have done something to get to heaven becuase we allready know they are going to hell.

If a certain indiviual ends up in hell after they die, and God knew about this full well before he even founded the earth, then how is it possible to say that that individual wasn't predestined there?

This, of course, all goes back to the classic Lockean debate over God's foreknowledge and the supposed 'power to do otherwise'.

If God foreknew, for complexity's sake, from eternity past that Jones would mow the lawn on Saturday, Jones can refrain from mowing the lawn ONLY if one of these alternatives is true:

1) Jones has the power to make God's belief false;
2) Jones has the power to erase God's past belief; or
3) Jones has the power to eerase God's past existence.

Clearly, from scripture, common sense, and idealism, we know that any of these choices are absolutely ridiculous. Martin Luther would rightly claim that 'the power to do otherwise' is merely a myth, as what God has foreknown will indeed happen regardless. His view was a form of theological fatalism. But it is very easy to see how this form of fatalism can be turned into freedom. Consider this addition to the alternatives above:

4) Jones has the power to act in a different way, and if he were to act in that way, God would have believed differently.

In this case, 'the power to do otherwise' is just that: a myth. For that which Jones would have done would have been foreknown. This does not mean that God is determined by man's choices; that He is the great "I Can Be", as Norman Geisler once said.  The first cause, or first mover, must be the necessary cause, or else He will be in debt to something higher than He for His creation.

William Lane Craig sweeps up the sop:

"Jones does not mow the lawn because God foreknows; God foreknows because Jones will mow the lawn. Now this does not mean Jones' action causes God's foreknowledge. The word because here indicates a logical, not a causal, relation, one similar to that expressed in the sentence 'four is an even number because it is divisible by two.'"

I once read on this board one who stated, with striking firmness in his words, that people should get over their doubts and accept the fact that divine foreknowledge and human freedom are not compatible. I beg to differ. Divine foreknowledge does not, in any way, nullify the freedom of man, in any instances. As philosopher Louis Pojman once strikingly stated, concerning this debate, the field of the epistemological does not affect that of the ontological. God's foreknowledge is essential to His sovereignty, and, quite frankly, He would not be able to predestine unless He had a glimpse of the people He would ordain to salvation.  How He predestines is something we are unable to grasp.

Adam and Eve fell from grace by their own efforts; God foreknew their free choices.  To claim that foreknowledge robs a being of freedom is to say that God makes people sin; that He institutes all the major terrorist and tyranic figures - the Hitlers and the Stalins; that He is basically too self-centered and, if you will, 'bored' to allow people to do so themselves, and there are even great philosophic minds that are throwing away God's ability to foreknow to simply let this fact stand no more. 

So why did God create the world as He did, given that many will be condemned, and much evil is present?  The answer very well may be that this is the only actual world that could have fit the bill, so to say.  Let us keep in mind that God is not an egotist, and that the creation of this world, foreknown by Him from eternity past, would cost Him the greatest sacrifice in all His being: His sovereignty through the incarnation.  As Spurgeon interestingly remarked, "for God to become and man and live among men meant more humiliation than for an angel to have become a worm."  Those who are condemned in this life are so because they willfully chose to 'supress the truth in unrighteousness' (Romans 1:18), and have rejected the call of God, 'who desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth' (1 Timothy 2:4). 

endure · Mar 13, 2003

reformationist
"Believing" is a result of being born again, not a means to be born again.

everyman, saved or unsaved has a measure of faith.

we do not get saved, and then believe. we believe and get saved.
mark 16.16
he that believeth..SHALL be saved...
he that believeth not SHALL be ******.

here we have the disciples confronting people, and the thing that determined their salvation or destruction, was them believing.
if unbelief damns, and it does, and if you cant believe untill after you are saved, then no man can be saved, because you cant get saved unless you believe.

there is no salvation for the unbelieving man that creates belief, becuase a lack of unbelief keeps him from getting saved.

you say that "all" could not refer to all people saved or unsaved, becuase he wouldnt be their saviour, i disagree.
whether they are saved or not, their salvation is in him, and he did come to save them. just becuase they do not take it, does not mean it is not present. he is their saver, whether they are saved or not. he came and offered them salvation, he was their salvation, not touching their states of being, but touching who HE was, and he was the provision for their salvation. he was their salvation. its like money, it is ours, whether we cash in the bill and receive its reward or not.

pas"
i disagree with your statement about the meaning.
ALL is PAS
it is a primary word for ALL, ANY, EVERY, THE WHOLE, ALWAYS, ANYONE, EVERYONE, EVERYWAY, WHATSOEVER, WHOEVER, WHOLE
(strongs concordance)

ok, you asked me a question,
dont do that. look at what the scripture says, i hate it when people get off on these little back trails and sideline issues about what they think it would mean if it was true, and it cant be true because it would something else. most of the time those questions have easy answers, but they are beside the point, it clearly says HE WILLS FOR ALL PEOPLE TO BE SAVED.

what i am saying, is Gods will is for all people to be saved, but for his will to be accomplished, we have to do our part, becuase part of his will is for us to do our part. yes i do think the will of God can go undone, when it comes his will for a diffrent person to do a certain thing that is not under his control. it doesnt touch the power of God, but this is a pointless matter anyway. there is no other way to interpret that scripture.

you asked
"if there eternal salvation was not what was purchased...then what was?"

i concluded that their salvation was what was purchased, nothing else.
you simply earlier asked a question and tried to conclude that my theory would prove the inferiority of God. but whatever it means, i go with the scripture and let that place God wherever it does, he died for a ransom for all, no matter what it means when some dont get saved. there are plenty of other reasons why it wasnt effectual people besides God being inferior.
and if God did die for all people everywhere to be saved, then you are not correct, becuase it proves that there is no man whom God doesnt will to be saved. whether they are or not isnt the point, the point of the matter is that NO God doesnt predetermine any man to go to hell. or else it cant be said that he died for their salvation.

you say
"Goodness man...

Every man that lives lives BECAUSE of redemption. We don't get redemption because we live. You've got it backwards."

why are you intent on getting off on a sideline issue that doesnt refer to the context of this debate? please, im not here to learn from you, and you shouldnt be here to show people what you know, please keep the conversation on topic.

you said
that your view was clearly said in scripture, i disagree, ive read what people say means that and it can be taken that way, but i find the scriptures that sound like hes saying he wants all people saved are much more common and much easier to be used in debate. that is something in itself.

you quoted romans 9.21-23
all that is saying is that he has the power to do as he wills with his people, he can send some to destruction if he wills and decides to.

it simply does not even begin to say that there are any men whom God simply does not want to be saved, or that he predetermines some to go to hell oblivious of the persons ways.
no where in that scripture is that said.

but elsewhere in scripture, we find it very clearly saying what he actually wills. and that is that NONE perish.
2 peter 3.9
...not willing that ANY should perish, and that ALL should come to repentance.

yes maybe he does choose that some to go to hell.
but with the facts we learn elsewhere about his will and desire, we know that this was not his will for their lives, as it is never his will for any mans life.

i am very content in saying he cannot make it happen, not when it rests on someone elses descision.

hehe, you would say that.
but no, thats not why i dont care.

Reformationist · Mar 13, 2003

Today at 01:14 PM endure said this in Post #12

please, im not here to learn from you, and you shouldnt be here to show people what you know, please keep the conversation on topic.

LOL!  What a waste of my time.

Ezra · Mar 13, 2003

We don't need theological "jargon" to understand God's grace. That simple and profound Scripture from John 3:16 covers all the objections of Calvinists to God's INFINITE GRACE extended TO ALL MANKIND through the perfect FINISHED WORK OF REDEMPTION ON THE CROSS by the Lord Jesus Christ. "ALL MEN" -- all mankind are invited to the Gospel Feast, therefore ALL ARE EXPECTED TO COME, AND ALL WILL BE WELCOMED WITH OPEN ARMS. Anything less than that is a travesty of the Gospel, and no amount of theological manipulation, and rationalistic attempts to understand Almighty God will avail. The real problem with Calvinisim is that a redeemed mortal sinner (Calvin or any of his followers) saved by the grace of God then attempts to limit God by teaching LIMITED ATONEMENT. The very fact that a limited mortal man tries to limit the infinite Godhead should cause people to stop and take heed. This is the "false doctrine" - Five-Point Calvinism -- as opposed to "THE GRACE OF GOD WHICH BRINGETH SALVATION... TO ALL MEN" (Titus 2:11).

Ezra · Mar 13, 2003

Divine foreknowledge does not, in any way, nullify the freedom of man, in any instances... C.S. Lewisist

Absolutely and Amen! This is so simple, and yet learned men stumble over it and then pervert Scripture to fit their lack of understanding. Divine foreknowledge already took into account everything, yet gave mankind and angels the freedom to choose. That freedom was not taken away even though all men became sinners through Adam. "There is none, righteous, no not one" (Rom.3:10) but that does not mean choosing God is impossible, or that only certain "elect" can do the choosing. Israel was "elect and chosen of God" [and generally disobedient], yet Joshua could say under God's direction: "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY WHOM YE WILL SERVE.." (Josh. 24:15). According to the notion of "Irresistable Grace" "elect" Israel did not need any such command. They were elect and they should have automatically chosen to serve God. But the history of Israel from the Judges to Christ is that the "elect" chose idolatry over the true living Elohim. Strange election, until we realize that the freedom to choose was never nullified in fallen mankind.

endure · Mar 14, 2003

reformationist,

i did not mean that to be offensive. and i did not mean that i dont need to learn any more.

all i was meaning is that i did not come here becuase i wanted you to teach me. and that you shouldnt be here with the attitude that you have the full truth and that you are Gods teacher, you shouldnt come here looking for a stage or for pupils.

it is fine that you teach, i have no problem with that.
but when you cant stay on topic, and you even make sarcastic remarks about something i believe that doesnt refer to the topic, it really looks like your just here to show people how much you know.

settergren · Mar 14, 2003

Today at 12:26 PM endure said this in Post #16

reformationist,

all i was meaning is that i did not come here becuase i wanted you to teach me. and that you shouldnt be here with the attitude that you have the full truth and that you are Gods teacher, you shouldnt come here looking for a stage or for pupils.

Gee, you don't come to this website to learn, yet you come here with the attitude that you don't have the full truth? If one doesn't have the full truth, which no one does, then shouldn't they want to learn? How can someone say they don't want to learn something while at the same time saying that they shouldn't want to teach. What then is the point of this website if you shouldn't learn or teach???

endure · Mar 15, 2003

i come here for fellowship and enjoyment.
i do not come here with the soul intention of teaching people.
and i do not come here with soul intention of being taught either.

i have other places in which i go to be taught, places which i trust the full truth to come from.

if i am taught something here then thats fine, and if i can teach someone then thats fine too.
but neither are my motive for coming here.

i do want to learn, but it isnt my motive for being here, and people here shouldnt see me as a potential pupil. as i dont see anyone here as a pupil of my own.
though if i am taught something then thats fine, as i have been before.

the only thing i was saying is that i did not come here seeking a teacher, and people shouldnt try to become one for me.
i dont mind discussing things, but stay on topic, dont go off into these other areas just becuase you think you need to teach me something. not just becuase i cant stand people thinking i need to learn from them, (though that does get on my nerves sometimes) but it really isnt easy to debate around that.

maybe im overeacting, sorry if i am.

SoccerAaron · Apr 10, 2003

11th March 2003 at 05:02 AM Ezra said this in Post #1

TOTAL DEPRAVITY: ARE SOME DESTINED FOR HELL?
Calvinism, or more precisely Five-Point Calvinism, includes Total Depravity as one of its key teachings. If this teaching is found false on the basis of Scripture, then it must be called False Teaching. If it is found true, we should all believe it on the basis of Scripture. One Calvinist puts it this way: We insist, on the basis of the Scriptural passages quoted earlier, that man is by nature completely dead in sin. Apart from Christ man can do no good whatsoever before God. Man can not do any "natural" or "civil" good on this earth. Nor can any man exercise his will to "accept" Christ -- for also his will is bound by sin and death. (Rev Gise J. Van Baren).

Scripture cleary supports Total Depravity.

Total Depravity

Jeremiah 13:23
23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

Job 14:4
4 Who can make the clean out of the unclean? No one!

Job 15:14-16
14 "What is man, that he should be pure, or he who is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?
15 "Behold, He puts no trust in His holy ones, and the heavens are not pure in His sight;
16 How much less one who is detestable and corrupt, Man, who drinks iniquity like water!

Ecclesiastes 9:3
3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for all men. Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead.

Psalms 51:5
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.

Isaiah 64:6
6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; and all of us wither like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Matthew 12:33
33 Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit.

John 3:19-21
19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.

John 6:44
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:53
53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

John 6:65
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

John 8:47
47 "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."

John 10:26
26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

Acts 13:41
41 Behold, you scoffers, and marvel, and perish; for I am accomplishing a work in your days, a work which you will never believe, though someone should describe it to you.

Acts 28:27
27 For the heart of this people has become dull, and with their ears they scarcely hear, and they have closed their eyes; otherwise they might see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understanding with their heart and return, and I would heal them.'

Romans 3:10-12
10 as it is written, "There is none righteous, not even one;
11 there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God;
12 all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one.

Romans 5:12
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

Romans 8:7-9
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

1 Corinthians 2:14
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

2 Corinthians 4:4
4 In whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Ephesians 2:1-5
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

Ephesians 2:12
12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Colossians 2:13
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

Titus 1:15
15 To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.

Titus 3:3
3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.

There is no denying that There is none righteous, no, not one (Rom. 3:10). But is it really true that man cannot even exercise his will to accept Christ because his will is bound? Therefore only those who are elect get saved, and all others are ****** because even if they wanted to, they could not choose Christ?

Click to expand...

If he did he wouldn't choose God.

Romans 3
10as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
11no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."

We should be thankful that he doesn't leave it up to us.

But mans will is usually unrighteousness.

Click to expand...

The ungenerate man's will is always unrighteous.

NOAH AND HIS DEPRAVED WORLD
Then we come to the time of Noah. And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually (Gen.6:5). In the midst of this total depravity, we read: But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD (Gen.6:8). Why did Noah find grace in the eyes of the Lord? Was he one of the elect or was he perfect? The Bible says neither of these. What the Bible really says (Heb. 11:7) is: "BY FAITH [not by election] NOAH, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear [reverence and godly fear], prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, AND BECAME HEIR OF THE RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH IS BY FAITH. Noah made a choice, which it would be reasonable to assume, was available to all. Listen to God or ignore God. God even allowed 120 years of grace. Noah chose the first option.

Click to expand...

Do you believe God gives faith or we create it for ourselves?

ABRAHAM AND HIS IDOLATROUS WORLD
BY FAITH [not by election] Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, OBEYED; and he went out, not knowing whither he went (Heb.11:8). Could Abraham have chosen to disobey? Absolutely.

Click to expand...

He could have. But wouldn't because God didn't have that planned.

PHAROAH AND MOSES
Some people use Pharoah as an example of Divine election to damnation (Rom. 9:18). Is that really so? God knew that Pharoah would resist, and resist, and resist, so eventually God would harden Pharoahs heart unto damnation. And that is true even today. Anyone can resist the Holy Spirit repeatedly until they cannot get saved, because there is a limit to Gods pleadings with man: My Spirit shall not always strive with man (Gen.6:3). So it was that in His Divine foreknowledge, God knew of Pharoahs intransigence already, even before Moses went to plead with him: But Pharoah shall not hearken unto you (Exod. 7:4).

Click to expand...

That can't be the case. Pharoah was going to let them go.(forget the reference) But God hardend his heart so he wouldn't.

Was he elected to damnation?

Click to expand...

Yes.

endure · Apr 14, 2003

you say some people are chosen by God to go to hell.
and that nothing they can say or do can change that.

i will never agree becuase of a few fundamental scriptures.

1 tim 2.4
who will have all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth.
(Gods will is that everyman or woman on this earth be saved)

1 tim 2.6
who gave himself a ransom for all,...
(everyman or woman on this earth was on that cross with him when he died, his death was the ransom for all living people, not only a certain number of them that he chose)

1 pet 3.9
the lord is...not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
(there is no man whom God doesnt will to be saved, you cant say that anyone is elected to be in hell)

the simple truth is this.
everyone is predestined to be saved.
but the predestination of God is simply Gods plan and will, it isnt some great force that man is subject to that he can never disobey. Gods will is that no man perish, yet people are in hell right now. those people were predestined to be saved too, or scripture isnt true. but it wasnt Gods will or plan that they be there.

the predestination or ELECTION of God is not something that determines a mans fate, oblivious of his actions or will.

2 pet 1.10
wherefore the rather brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for IF YOU DO THESE THINGS you shall never fall.

we who are the elect(all people are), still have to work to make our election sure, and its possible that even us who are the elect that God predetermined to be saved, might end up in hell, becuase we have to work diligently to make our election sure.

peter clearly proclaims that God does not determine your fate, that your diligence and your DOING THESE THINGS determines your fate. and this was said of "the elect".
just becuase your of the elect and God predetermined you to be saved, doesnt mean you will be saved. and just becuase some people dont get saved, doesnt mean there werent of the elect or predestined to be saved.
its not possible that anyone was elected to go to hell if God wills that no man be there, and he died as a ransom for ALL.

1 john 2.2
and he is the propritiation for our sins: AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY, but also for the sins of the whole world.

those that are saved are not the only people whom he died for, and they arent the only ones chosen to be saved. the rest of humanity has been elected to be saved also. but not all are.

many are called, and few are chosen.
just becuase not everyone comes to the lord and gets saved, doesnt mean they werent called or predestined to get saved.

man in his earthly filthy state cannot please God or be righteous, but he is able to hearken unto the grace and voice of the lord, and that is all it takes.

Total Depravity: some destined for Hell?

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