Prayers to Mary

abacabb3 said:

Would it be the same for Saint Joseph?

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St Joseph is not His father, although the Lord does honor him, just not as He does His actual Father

abacabb3 said:

Perhaps, though I think Matt and you and I would have issues with praying, "Matt, you are my only hope for salvation." For one, it would be untrue, we have other saints that pray for us too

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yeah, I would not be down with that.

abacabb3 said:

Do you never ask your friends and family for prayer? So, don't you pester the stable boy too?

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Just FYI, we Orthodox (and other Catholics I know) do ask eachother to pray for us, both sinners here on earth and the saints.

abacabb3 said:

Perhaps, though I think Matt and you and I would have issues with praying, "Matt, you are my only hope for salvation." For one, it would be untrue, we have other saints that pray for us too

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Well, taken at face value, yes, that's a serious problem.

With a very particular understanding of "only hope" especially, and probably "salvation" as well, it might be ... tolerable. But still not preferable.

And I should say, I'm stretching my point of view as wide as possible to say that much, AND I was also involved with evaluating dialogue at times, so my pov can be extremely wide.

Which I probably should have mentioned when I first commented that I could understand such speaking between persons. But my mind still clamps down on it in a religious context, which is where I am and so proper for me. I don't criticize others if they have a different or more expansive religious understanding that could still be accurate, but for me, it still sounds like asking Mary for things she cannot properly be asked, so like Wildlast and All4Christ, I don't pray them in that way, since my understanding of the words creates something wrong.

All4Christ said:

Just FYI, we Orthodox (and other Catholics I know) do ask eachother to pray for us, both sinners here on earth and the saints.

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Oh, absolutely.

I for one tend to most appreciate the prayers of those who are either ...

Particularly strong in prayer, or particularly righteous in their lives ...

Especially close to me, so that their prayers are likely to be heartfelt ...

or

In a particular position to pray for me, by means of responsibility, such as one's priest or spiritual father (bonus points because they can fit all three categories).

But I appreciate anyone's prayers, even strangers who I meet through various situations who then say they will pray for me. Sometimes even all the more, for some reason ...

Even though lately, I don't ask often, because I feel like I've asked a lot already.

~Anastasia~ said:

Oh, absolutely.

I for one tend to most appreciate the prayers of those who are either ...

Particularly strong in prayer, or particularly righteous in their lives ...

Especially close to me, so that their prayers are likely to be heartfelt ...

or

In a particular position to pray for me, by means of responsibility, such as one's priest or spiritual father (bonus points because they can fit all three categories).

But I appreciate anyone's prayers, even strangers who I meet through various situations who then say they will pray for me. Sometimes even all the more, for some reason ...

Even though lately, I don't ask often, because I feel like I've asked a lot already.

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You are in my prayers no matter what, whether you ask for them or not!

All4Christ said:

You are in my prayers no matter what, whether you ask for them or not!

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And you in mine, dear sister.

And yours I treasure - thank you!

~Anastasia~ said:

And you in mine, dear sister.

And yours I treasure - thank you!

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Thank you so much! I know many if not most of my days are carried through by the prayer service of others and God's help, rather than my own strength. That God for His love and comfort! Also, thank God for the prayers of all the saints, both the Church Triumphant and the Church Militant

All4Christ said:

Thank you so much! I know many if not most of my days are carried through by the prayer service of others and God's help, rather than my own strength. That God for His love and comfort! Also, thank God for the prayers of all the saints, both the Church Triumphant and the Church Militant

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Indeed. I know I have MUCH to be thankful for on that count.

Peter Moghila, although he took a stand against Rome, Kiev at the time was influenced by Rome. it is true that that the prayers and works of the living can affect those in torment, because God's mercy is unending. there are stories of saints and elders who prayed for those who died in rebellion, and they went from torment to paradise because of the work of the Church on their behalf (ie St Xenia of St Petersburg's husband, Elder Joseph the hesychast's aunt, etc). but this means that the person who died, had a heart that was for Him, and for whatever reason He knew it was best for that person's salvation to go to torment.

this does not mean that folks can just be prayed out of hades, since it's not magic. all this and what the living can do on behalf of the departed is by God's will alone.

abacabb3 said:

Perhaps, though I think Matt and you and I would have issues with praying, "Matt, you are my only hope for salvation." For one, it would be untrue, we have other saints that pray for us too

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I came to Orthodoxy from another tradition. The reverence given to the Theotokos and the veneration of icons were issues that were the most troublesome for me to overcome.

However, to your quote; during catechism when we were discussing the language of some of the prayers this example came up. My priest pointed out that, on the surface, there is a point and salvation only comes from Christ.
However, If I were to fall into an icy lake and 'Matt' was standing on the shore - for me to call out, "Matt, save me, you're my only hope!" would not be inappropriate nor theologically incorrect. It would simply be a different understanding of "save" in the context. In many cases, prayers to the Theotokos function in the same way.

Seems to me that time spent in the Church remedies a lot of this. You hear the hymns of the Liturgy and the cycle of services each day, and you get a certain understanding of what such flowery language is meant to convey. From the outside, it sounds dubious, but when you understand the theology of the Church, having participated in Her life, it becomes clear what the hymns are saying. I was Roman Catholic and even I stumbled over "most holy Theotokos, save us" for awhile until I learned what it really means.

abacabb3 said:

Instead of starting a new thread, allow me to ask a question about the Orthodox Confession of Peter of Moghila.

He writes in the answer to question 64, "it is certain that many [dead] sinners are freed from the chains of Hades not by their own repentance or confession...but for the good works and alms for the living."

A local priest told me, no, we pray for the dead but this does not change God's judgment against them. It can only improve their lots in heaven or hell.

Are they fundamentally in disagreement or what is the meaning of "being freed from the chains of Hades" if this does not mean leaving damnation?

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ArmyMatt said:

Peter Moghila, although he took a stand against Rome, Kiev at the time was influenced by Rome. it is true that that the prayers and works of the living can affect those in torment, because God's mercy is unending. there are stories of saints and elders who prayed for those who died in rebellion, and they went from torment to paradise because of the work of the Church on their behalf (ie St Xenia of St Petersburg's husband, Elder Joseph the hesychast's aunt, etc). but this means that the person who died, had a heart that was for Him, and for whatever reason He knew it was best for that person's salvation to go to torment.

this does not mean that folks can just be prayed out of hades, since it's not magic. all this and what the living can do on behalf of the departed is by God's will alone.

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This understanding seems to take a lot of "navigating" as I have been confused along the way by seemingly contradictory statements.

But it does seem to be an uncompromising bottom line of the Church's teaching that it is not possible for our prayers alone to effect salvation for one who lived and died opposed to God. We might hope for something like a momentary easing of their torment, but we cannot "save them" outright.

There is nearly always the caution given by priests who teach on the topic not to have expectation of what God may or may not do in response to our prayers. Ours is only given to pray in love - nothing more.

That is the most important part of why we pray for the dead. We aren't sure exactly how it will help them, but we pray for them first and foremost because we love them.

~Anastasia~ said:

There is nearly always the caution given by priests who teach on the topic not to have expectation of what God may or may not do in response to our prayers. Ours is only given to pray in love - nothing more.

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right, we pray for them and let God take care of them. and just because it can work for someone, that does not mean it will for everyone. only God can see the heart, and He knows what He is doing.

abacabb3 said:

So, it sounds like prayers may free someone from Hades only if this was a faithful person who, for some reason, was meant to go to heaven for their own good was put temporarily in Hades?

Sounds a little like purgatory, though I understand that purgatory is normative in RCism while this Hades-thing seems to be an exception rather than the rule.

I just know that the 2016 Council in Greece lifted up Moghlia's letter as an essential exposition of the faith. So his Hades-thing (and his stance against the laity reading the Bible) appear to me odd things to endorse, unless it was understood that the endorsement was qualified.

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I did not hear that from the Council ...

But I think we need to wait for the dust to settle before we get upset.

You on the other hand are in a position to explore, and I respect that.