Baptism Wasn't "Polished"

Bessie · Mar 9, 2017

I asked one of my roommates for his impressions about the baptism/ liturgy this past weekend because he'd never really been to an Orthodox service before, although he was raised Roman Catholic and had been an altar server into his teenage years. He said he thought the baptism ceremony didn't seem polished but that the priest seemed loving and that the community seemed joyful to be welcoming my son. When I pressed him on this he told me that his experience with RC baptisms was that the choir smoothed over transitions more and that if the kid seemed to be struggling the priest could and would routinely just skip over stuff and use "artistic license."

I thought that was really interesting, if a little disturbing. I know for sure this thing would never happen in the Orthodox Church. My priest did make some accommodations for our family - my son was crying for me and so I stood with the Godparents. At communion time he threw a huge fit and said he didn't want his Godfather so I brought him up (and the godparents came too with their candles), etc... but everyone just accepted that he is a toddler and was going to be restless and fuss etc. It kind of blew my mind that having a "smooth and polished" service feels more important than actually experiencing the full liturgy in the West - though I'm sure that's not universal. Just musing as I process this experience. Thanks for listening to my rambling.

PollyJetix · Mar 9, 2017

Humans invented traditions to make themselves feel comfortably in charge.
Liturgy isn't necessarily required by the New Testament. Liturgy is traditional.
One can be Christian without Liturgy.

ArmyMatt · Mar 9, 2017

Bessie said:
When I pressed him on this he told me that his experience with RC baptisms was that the choir smoothed over transitions more and that if the kid seemed to be struggling the priest could and would routinely just skip over stuff and use "artistic license."

yeah, that is odd to use artistic license, as if someone nowadays could improve upon a service written by saints.

PollyJetix · Mar 9, 2017

ArmyMatt said:
yeah, that is odd to use artistic license, as if someone nowadays could improve upon a service written by saints.

I'm trying to discern if this was said while tongue was planted firmly in cheek.

ArmyMatt · Mar 9, 2017

PollyJetix said:
Humans invented traditions to make themselves feel comfortably in charge.
Liturgy isn't necessarily required by the New Testament. Liturgy is traditional.
One can be Christian without Liturgy.

just wanna say, welcome to TAW. and for us, Liturgy is in the NT, and it is a requirement since this is how God is worshiped in heaven and how He worshiped when He was on earth. Orthodox Liturgy shows that humans are not in charge, and that only God is. that being said, this is not our debate forum, so if you want to discuss this, feel free to post in St. Justin's corner.

just throwing this out there because this forum has rules to keep good order, and your point is an important one.

ArmyMatt · Mar 9, 2017

PollyJetix said:
I'm trying to discern if this was said while tongue was planted firmly in cheek.

huh?

PollyJetix · Mar 9, 2017

ArmyMatt said:
just wanna say, welcome to TAW. and for us, Liturgy is in the NT, and it is a requirement since this is how God is worshiped in heaven and how He worshiped when He was on earth. Orthodox Liturgy shows that humans are not in charge, and that only God is. that being said, this is not our debate forum, so if you want to discuss this, feel free to post in St. Justin's corner.

just throwing this out there because this forum has rules to keep good order, and your point is an important one.

OOPS! I didn't realise which forum I was in. Sorry about that.

ArmyMatt · Mar 9, 2017

PollyJetix said:
OOPS! I didn't realise which forum I was in. Sorry about that.

no, you are fine, and your point is a good one especially nowadays.

~Anastasia~ · Mar 9, 2017

Bessie said:
I asked one of my roommates for his impressions about the baptism/ liturgy this past weekend because he'd never really been to an Orthodox service before, although he was raised Roman Catholic and had been an altar server into his teenage years. He said he thought the baptism ceremony didn't seem polished but that the priest seemed loving and that the community seemed joyful to be welcoming my son. When I pressed him on this he told me that his experience with RC baptisms was that the choir smoothed over transitions more and that if the kid seemed to be struggling the priest could and would routinely just skip over stuff and use "artistic license."

I thought that was really interesting, if a little disturbing. I know for sure this thing would never happen in the Orthodox Church. My priest did make some accommodations for our family - my son was crying for me and so I stood with the Godparents. At communion time he threw a huge fit and said he didn't want his Godfather so I brought him up (and the godparents came too with their candles), etc... but everyone just accepted that he is a toddler and was going to be restless and fuss etc. It kind of blew my mind that having a "smooth and polished" service feels more important than actually experiencing the full liturgy in the West - though I'm sure that's not universal. Just musing as I process this experience. Thanks for listening to my rambling.

Father made a brief comment about baptism during Bible Study the other day.

He said parents sometimes try to "shush" the child, but it doesn't bother him. He said they nearly all cry, if at no other time, when they are dunked. He likened it to natural birth into the world, when we expect children to cry. He said they are being birthed into a spiritual reality, so why shouldn't they cry again?

I think I probably cried a little at my baptism, though what I remember is that I could not stop smiling.

But like you, I can't imagine glossing things over and skipping parts for the sake of making a nice show? A baptism is a Sacramental event (a Sacrament of course, I don't mean to misspeak) ... not a nice event we get to spectate and enjoy the show?

seashale76 · Mar 9, 2017

Bessie said:
I asked one of my roommates for his impressions about the baptism/ liturgy this past weekend because he'd never really been to an Orthodox service before, although he was raised Roman Catholic and had been an altar server into his teenage years. He said he thought the baptism ceremony didn't seem polished but that the priest seemed loving and that the community seemed joyful to be welcoming my son. When I pressed him on this he told me that his experience with RC baptisms was that the choir smoothed over transitions more and that if the kid seemed to be struggling the priest could and would routinely just skip over stuff and use "artistic license."

I thought that was really interesting, if a little disturbing. I know for sure this thing would never happen in the Orthodox Church. My priest did make some accommodations for our family - my son was crying for me and so I stood with the Godparents. At communion time he threw a huge fit and said he didn't want his Godfather so I brought him up (and the godparents came too with their candles), etc... but everyone just accepted that he is a toddler and was going to be restless and fuss etc. It kind of blew my mind that having a "smooth and polished" service feels more important than actually experiencing the full liturgy in the West - though I'm sure that's not universal. Just musing as I process this experience. Thanks for listening to my rambling.

When my cousin's kids were baptized Catholic, the services were anything but polished. In fact, with one, my husband and I were left wondering if the baptism was even valid by Catholic standards, it was that loosey goosey. Your friend's idea that 'glossing over stuff' is being 'polished' is very strange to me.

SeraphimSarov · Mar 9, 2017

I converted from Roman Catholicism. I think Orthodox services in general feel less "polished" to someone used to traditional Roman Catholicism. I remember thinking that the priest and choir overlapping each other during the litanies was very strange, though now I couldn't conceive of hearing it any other way!

buzuxi02 · Mar 9, 2017

PollyJetix said:
Humans invented traditions to make themselves feel comfortably in charge.
Liturgy isn't necessarily required by the New Testament. Liturgy is traditional.
One can be Christian without Liturgy.

The NT uses the word Liturgy or to "liturgize' many times. And there is liturgy taking place on heaven as witnessed by Isaiah and John in the book of Revelation. It's just that the protestant west has no idea what these ancient words mean as the KJV bible has suppressed them.

PollyJetix · Mar 9, 2017

All4Christ · Mar 9, 2017

PollyJetix said:
Why in the world would the leader of the Church of England of 1611 suppress words having to do with liturgy?

What does this have to do with Orthodoxy?

If you want to debate liturgy, feel free to start a thread in St Justin Martyr's Corner!

PollyJetix · Mar 9, 2017

All4Christ said:
What does this have to do with Orthodoxy?

If you want to debate liturgy, feel free to start a thread in St Justin Martyr's Corner!

Sorry again. It was an honest question.

All4Christ · Mar 9, 2017

PollyJetix said:
Sorry again. It was an honest question.

I honestly don't understand how it is related to Orthodoxy. I'd be happy to answer, but I don't know what you're trying to convey.

ETA: I understand now after rereading the thread. I thought you were talking about the Anglican Church, rather than referencing the KJV.

Just so you know, the KJV used the word "worship" instead of liturgize. At the time it was written, worship was liturgical. So perhaps at the time, the clarification wasn't needed?

This may also interest you: Strong's Greek: 3009. λειτουργία (leitourgia) -- a service, a ministry

Also, note the use of leitourgia in this Scripture, where it says service: Philippians 2:17 Interlinear: but if also I am poured forth upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I rejoice and joy with you all,

SeraphimSarov · Mar 10, 2017

I think it's noteworthy that's it's only been in the past few hundred years of Christianity at large that there has been non-liturgical worship. It's been liturgical ever since the beginning.

All4Christ · Mar 10, 2017

They probably will come out at different times, but if you are willing to test both, that'd be wonderful. What models do you have of your phones? I have an iPhone 7 and an iPad Mini 4, but don't have any Androids now, so Android is important. I need to buy a cheap one for development purposes instead of just using the emulator.

SeraphimSarov · Mar 10, 2017

All4Christ said:
They probably will come out at different times, but if you are willing to test both, that'd be wonderful. What models do you have of your phones? I have an iPhone 7 and an iPad Mini 4, but don't have any Androids now, so Android is important. I need to buy a cheap one for development purposes instead of just using the emulator.

Wrong thread.

I'll respond in the other thread.

All4Christ · Mar 10, 2017

SeraphimSarov said:
Wrong thread. I'll respond in the other thread.

Whoops

Thanks! That's what happens when you have 20 windows up on your phone browser...

Baptism Wasn't "Polished"

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