Christianity: How many Gods?

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gadar perets

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Theotes is denoting not just the fullness in the sense deity occupying a body but the possession of the essence of deity in an absolute sense.
Can this statement of yours be read as follows; "Theotes is denoting not just the fullness in the sense YHWH's Spirit occupying a body but the possession of the essence of YHWH in an absolute sense"? If so, I agree. Yeshua possessed the essence of YHWH. That doesn't make him YHWH, especially in light of the trinitarian definition that the Father is NOT the Son. However, if you are trying to say theotes makes Yeshua himself deity, I disagree and challenge you to provide Scriptural evidence that theotes denotes that. You can apply whatever meaning you want to that word, but if the definition is not backed up with a Scriptural example, it is questionable at best.

It is this passage which led many early church theologians to note the full deity of Yeshua Hamashiach as well as being fully human.
Those same "theologians" reject the plain words of Scripture and of our Savior when they teach that Yeshua's Father is the "only true God".

As in John 1 we see the Logos was God.
Your capitalization of "Logos" to make it a person doesn't work with me. The "logos' is the Father's spoken words and thoughts. He used the 'logos" to create Yeshua. He spoke Yeshua into existence. The "logos" was not a spirit being that was miniaturized and put in Mary's womb.

A great mystery which when you look at the entire NT makes a lot of sense. Yeshua taught us to pray to the Father, ask anything in His name and Paul says we pray in the Spirit.

That is why it is important to read and exegete these passages in the original languages.
Why are we to pray to the Father? Because He is the only true God. Why did Yeshua pray to Him? Because He is the only true God and because He is Yeshua's God. If Yeshua is God as well, then you have two Gods.
 
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gadar perets

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So the Logos which was in the beginning didn't exist until His conception in Mary's womb?
The "logos" (small l) existed as the Father's words and thoughts as long as Father YHWH existed. He caused His words and thoughts to become a flesh and blood 100% human male.

There's a reason why early heretics, in order to deny Christ's pre-existence, did so by rejecting Logos language, the alogoi rejected Johanine literature and the language of Christ as the Logos, and the Ebionites simply didn't bother to accept virtually any of the same books orthodox Christians did.
I don't reject logos language. I simply don't read the Son into the logos prior to his conception.

It's a little hard to take the books accepted as Scripture by the ancient, holy, and catholic Church in order to come up with a view which could only exist in antiquity by denying those very books.
What books are you referring to? Our current canon? If so, I don't deny those books. I deny the trinitarian interpretation of those books.

Say what you will about Arius, but he at least tried to be biblical.
And failed, as did the trinitarians.
 
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miknik5

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Who are gods also according to the Bible and according to the words of Jesus?
Those to whom "THE WORD of GOD" has come

But not that we are gods but that eternal life has come to us through the ONE who has the WORDS of ETERNAL LIFE
 
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miknik5

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Can this statement of yours be read as follows; "Theotes is denoting not just the fullness in the sense YHWH's Spirit occupying a body but the possession of the essence of YHWH in an absolute sense"? If so, I agree. Yeshua possessed the essence of YHWH. That doesn't make him YHWH, especially in light of the trinitarian definition that the Father is NOT the Son. However, if you are trying to say theotes makes Yeshua himself deity, I disagree and challenge you to provide Scriptural evidence that theotes denotes that. You can apply whatever meaning you want to that word, but if the definition is not backed up with a Scriptural example, it is questionable at best.


Those same "theologians" reject the plain words of Scripture and of our Savior when they teach that Yeshua's Father is the "only true God".


Your capitalization of "Logos" to make it a person doesn't work with me. The "logos' is the Father's spoken words and thoughts. He used the 'logos" to create Yeshua. He spoke Yeshua into existence. The "logos" was not a spirit being that was miniaturized and put in Mary's womb.


Why are we to pray to the Father? Because He is the only true God. Why did Yeshua pray to Him? Because He is the only true God and because He is Yeshua's God. If Yeshua is God as well, then you have two Gods.
With regards to prayer

Read John 16:20 through John 16:28
 
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miknik5

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The "logos" (small l) existed as the Father's words and thoughts as long as Father YHWH existed. He caused His words and thoughts to become a flesh and blood 100% human male.


I don't reject logos language. I simply don't read the Son into the logos prior to his conception.


What books are you referring to? Our current canon? If so, I don't deny those books. I deny the trinitarian interpretation of those books.


And failed, as did the trinitarians.
The WORD of GOD in the past came to whomever GOD would call as a prophet

This is why it was always said. And the WORD came to _________(the blank line representing the name of the prophet)

But never was it said (until Chrissy JESUS)

The WORD was made flesh
 
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miknik5

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You don't read the logos into CHRIST and you believe CHRIST became the logos when and after GOD brought HIM Forth?

Why does the WORD of GOD say the Testimony of JESUS is the SPIRIT Of PROPHECY
And how does the WORD of GOD say THE SPIRIT of CHRIST was in the prophets testifying prophesying of the sufferings and the grace and glory which would come?

What did CHRIST mean when HE said HE came down from Heaven

Or I came forth from GOD and into the world again I leave the world and go back to THE FATHER?
 
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gadar perets

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The WORD of GOD in the past came to whomever GOD would call as a prophet

This is why it was always said. And the WORD came to _________(the blank line representing the name of the prophet)

But never was it said (until Chrissy JESUS)

The WORD was made flesh
I agree. The same logos that came to the prophets eventually became a prophet, Yeshua. Yeshua was not the logos before his conception. It was not Yeshua that spoke to the prophets because he was the logos. It was his Father that spoke to them. YHWH did not use the Son as His spokesperson until the last days (Hebrews 1:1-2).
 
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miknik5

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CHRIST is the visible image of the invisible GOD

He who has seen THE SON has seen THE FATHER

CHRIST came to manifest THE FATHER

(How can what is invisible be made visiblle)

A spirit is invisible
In order for a spirit to be made manifest, it needs a visible vessel

THE WORD was made flesh.
 
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miknik5

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I agree. The same logos that came to the prophets eventually became a prophet, Yeshua. Yeshua was not the logos before his conception. It was not Yeshua that spoke to the prophets because he was the logos. It was his Father that spoke to them. YHWH did not use the Son as His spokesperson until the last days (Hebrews 1:1-2).
What is your understanding of Isaiah 7 and Revelation 12

Or John's words even

Was CHRIST from the beginning and all the prophets were shadows pointing to HIM

Or was CHRIST GOD's final attempt to turn man back to HIM?
 
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miknik5

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If GOD already (after the Passover) declared to Moses that HE would raise up a "prophet" and put HIS WORDS in HIM and that HE would say all that HE commands HIM to say and that that if any man does not listen to HIM HE would require it of the man

Was CHRIST from the beginning

Or even the Passover is a picture of CHRIST

And the truth that ADAM and EVE were covered over in a second covering also points to in lower signs the TRUTH that CHRIST was from the beginning
 
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gadar perets

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You don't read the logos into CHRIST
No. I don't read Christ into the logos.

and you believe CHRIST became the logos when and after GOD brought HIM Forth?
Correct.

Why does the WORD of GOD say the Testimony of JESUS is the SPIRIT Of PROPHECY
The same Spirit that led the prophets to prophesy of Messiah has led Yeshua to prophesy about the things written in Revelation.

And how does the WORD of GOD say THE SPIRIT of CHRIST was in the prophets testifying prophesying of the sufferings and the grace and glory which would come?
YHWH always gives His spirit, and then it is named as it functions. When it is associated with wisdom, it is called the “spirit of wisdom” (Exodus 28:3). When it is associated with grace, it is called the “spirit of grace” (Hebrews 10:29). When it is related to glory, it is called the “spirit of glory” (1 Peter 4:14). It is called the “spirit of adoption” when it is associated with becoming one of YHWH's children (Romans 8:15). It is called “the spirit of truth” when it is associated with the truth we learn by revelation (John 14:17). When it came with the same power as it brought to Elijah, it was called “the spirit of Elijah” (2 Kings 2:15). These are all one and the same Spirit that function differently.

When Peter mentions that “the spirit of Christ” was upon prophets as they “predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glory that would follow,” it is easy to see that the spirit is called the “spirit of Christ” because it is associated with Christ and foretold of Christ, not because Christ was actually alive during the Old Testament.

What did CHRIST mean when HE said HE came down from Heaven

Or I came forth from GOD and into the world again I leave the world and go back to THE FATHER?
The phrase "came down from heaven" is difficult for many to understand. The Jews did not understand either as we read in John 6:42; "And they said, Is not this Yeshua, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?" There is no doubt that Yeshua was emphasizing his heavenly and paternal origin, but in what sense was he declaring this?

Was Yeshua a preexistent spirit being living side by side with YHWH that was transformed into an embryo placed in Mary's womb or was he actually "inside" YHWH? John 17:8 teaches the latter. It reads, "For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee , and they have believed that thou didst send me." The Greek word "exerchomai" translated "came out" specifically means to go out of something that you were inside of. In this case, Yeshua existed "inside" of his Father in a similar sense that Levi existed inside the "loins of his father" before he was born (Hebrews 7:5-10). In that passage, Levi was not born yet, nor was his father Jacob. Yet, Levi was said to be in Abraham's loins (in the sense of future lineage). (The lineage of Messiah is spoken of in Micah 5:2 and it traces all the way back to his Father Yahweh). While it is difficult to perceive of the Almighty having an "inside," that is what the text is saying. Yet, this, too, is figurative and equates with the mind of YHWH.

There will be those who will totally misunderstand my words, so let me clarify this. I am not suggesting the Almighty has "loins." Nor am I suggesting Yeshua was conceived in any manner similar to the manner in which all men are conceived (through procreation/copulation). YHWH is Spirit. His Holy Spirit "came upon" Mary and miraculously caused her egg to receive the necessary DNA to create a 100% male child in her womb.

Luke 1:35 says, "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

Yeshua declared this truth in John 16:27-30 as well. "For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God." Yeshua could not come from YHWH's side and from inside of YHWH at the same time. Only one can be true.

A verse that goes hand in hand with the phrase "came down from heaven" is John 6:62; "What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?" Yeshua's origin is not in question here. Yeshua was, at one time, in heaven. He existed in the loins of His Father YHWH (in the sense of future lineage) until the appointed time of his earthly birth.
 
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gadar perets

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CHRIST is the visible image of the invisible GOD

He who has seen THE SON has seen THE FATHER

CHRIST came to manifest THE FATHER

(How can what is invisible be made visiblle)

A spirit is invisible
In order for a spirit to be made manifest, it needs a visible vessel

THE WORD was made flesh.
You are assuming the Son was a spirit. He was not. He was a 100% man that was made in the image of the Father as far as his character goes.
 
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gadar perets

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What is your understanding of Isaiah 7 and Revelation 12

Or John's words even

Was CHRIST from the beginning and all the prophets were shadows pointing to HIM

Or was CHRIST GOD's final attempt to turn man back to HIM?
Messiah Yeshua existed in YHWH's mind/plan of salvation. All the prophets prophesied about him and pointed to him via types and shadows. At the appointed time, YHWH brought His plan to fruition by creating Yeshua as a 100% man in the womb of a virgin.
 
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gadar perets

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Remember the reason why GOD said to Moses in Deuteronomy 18 "they have spoken well "

And why today GOD speaks to us by HIS SON
He who has The SON has The FATHER also
Are you saying the Son is the Father? I will never believe that all the days of my life.
 
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gadar perets

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CHRIST, the visible image of the invisible GOD. The exact representation of His being and the full radiance of His glory

For it pleased GOD that in HIM the fullness might dwell

For GOD gave HIM THE SPIRIT without measure
I agree, but that does not make him the Father or the only true God.
 
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gadar perets

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If GOD already (after the Passover) declared to Moses that HE would raise up a "prophet" and put HIS WORDS in HIM and that HE would say all that HE commands HIM to say snfbthst if any man dies not listen to HIM HE would require it of the man

Was CHRIST from the beginning

Or even the Passover is a picture of CHRIST

And the truth that ADAM and EVE were covered over in a second covering also points to in lower signs the TRUTH that CHRIST was from the beginning
The prophet was raised up in the person of the man, Messiah Yeshua. The prophet was not a preexistant spirit being.
 
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