Who are Gods chosen people?
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So traditional Jews just have to recognize Jesus and if they do not, then that is at their demise?
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Soyeong
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In Acts 6:13, Stephen was falsely accused of teaching Jews against obeying God's Law, and in Acts 21:20-24, Paul took steps at the direction of James to disprove a false rumor that he was teaching Jews against obeying God's Law, so if no one in leadership was doing that, then all Christians were Torah observant Jews for roughly the first 7-15 years after Christ's ascension up until the inclusion of Gentiles in Acts 10. So these were the first Messianic Jews. However, Jews who do not recognize Jesus as their Messiah consider Jews who do that have gone after a false prophet, so they are shunned. According to Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed His people to tell that someone was a false prophet, even if they performed signs and wonders, was if they taught them against obeying what God had commanded them. So Christians who teach that Jesus did away with the Law are essentially teaching that he was a false prophet.
However, Messianics recognize that that Jesus did not do away with the Law, but rather he set a perfect example for us for how to walk in obedience to the Law, and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:3-6). We also recognize that following Messiah's example is not just for his Jewish followers, but also for his Gentiles followers, so Messianic Judaism includes Gentile believers who seek to follow what Christianity was at its origin, which was a sect of Judaism. Over time, Christianity has sadly become separated from the Jewish roots of its faith, with Christians following the Messiah, but not God's Torah that he walked out, with Jews following God's Torah, but not their Jewish Messiah, and with both only following half the truth. The Torah is the way (Exodus 18:20, Deuteronomy 5:33, Deuteronomy 8:6, Deuteronomy 26:16-17, Deuteronomy 28:9, Isaiah 2:3, Jeremiah 6:16-19, Psalms 119:1, Matthew 3:3, Matthew 22:16), the truth (Psalms 119:142, Psalms 119:151, John 17:17), and the life (Proverbs 13:14, Matthew 19:17, Deuteronomy 30:15-20), Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6), the Torah is God's Word, and Messiah is God's Word made flesh, so trying to separate one from the other will leave you with only half the truth.
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Does God elect on who will be saved or is it up to the individual to follow his covenant and commandments then repent and turn from sin?
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Soyeong
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Indeed. According to Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from what God had commanded, so if Jesus had deviated from that, then he would have sinned, and again been disqualified from being our Savior. However, Jesus was not in disagreement with the Father about what conduct we should have, but rather he said that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father (John 7:16) and that he only came to do His Father's will (John 6:38).
According to Psalms 40:7 and Hebrews 10:7, the Torah is a scroll written about Messiah. According to John 5:46, Jesus said that Moses wrote about him, according to Luke 24:27, Jesus began with Moses and all the Prophets, interpreting to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself, and according to Romans 10:4, Jesus is the goal of the Torah, so he is the primary subject of the Torah. So when the Torah is all about him, then it makes much more sense to say that he brought full meaning to following it rather than to say that he did away without and went off and taught his own thing apart from what God had commanded.
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"Brother" is used in multiple ways in the Bible. Iirc, in the NT it either refers to a blood sibling or a Christian. Jews are special because God chose them, otherwise they are subject to the same sin, salvation, and judgment as everyone else.
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- Nov 5, 2011
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Jesus did start a new religion based upon a new covenant that would replace the old covenant. Christians therefore went to Jews to try to convert them to this new religion.
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Correct. The only way to eternal life is through Jesus.
Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
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Soyeong
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At its origin, Christianity was a sect of Judaism, so it existed as a variant within Judaism, not as a separate religion. Judaism is centrally focused on the promise of a redeemer, so it is not like he came a started his own thing rather than fulfilled Jewish prophecies. Christians do not need to convert Jews to a new religion, but rather we need to help Jews see that Jesus is the Messiah of their religion.
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I don't agree.
Disagree. We need to help convert Jews to Christianity so they see that Jesus was the prophesied Messiah in Judaism. Staying in Judaism is not what the new covenant is about.
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
It would be wrong to deny Jews this newer and better covenant.
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Thanks for all the replies I am learning a lot and sorry for the questions or repetitive questions. I have no one else to ask, because when I do ask him, he gets angry and acts like a child, like I have no right to question him. Here it seems like I just have to separate the wheat from the chaff, and double check things. And I appreciate that. It allows me to eventually own what I have learned.
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I read earlier in some posts that jews are to remain jews and gentiles are to remain gentiles. Is this true? what exactly does this mean? And can both still be a follower of Christ?
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Would this be accurate to what judeochristianty is?
Principles of Judeochristianity
Judeochristianity is neither Judaism nor Christianity but a bridge between the two. Its mission is to explore the implications of Jewish and Christian teaching when Jesus is seen as continuing the line of Hebrew prophecy and moving it forward. It does not ask people to believe anything but only to consider what Judaism and Christianity have to teach each other and to teach us as well. Specific beliefs are the domain of each individual’s relationship with God. Both Jewish and Christian beliefs are respected here.
Principles of Judeochristianity
Judeochristianity is neither Judaism nor Christianity but a bridge between the two. Its mission is to explore the implications of Jewish and Christian teaching when Jesus is seen as continuing the line of Hebrew prophecy and moving it forward. It does not ask people to believe anything but only to consider what Judaism and Christianity have to teach each other and to teach us as well. Specific beliefs are the domain of each individual’s relationship with God. Both Jewish and Christian beliefs are respected here.
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Are all testament Jews then automatically saved? because they are blood or do they still have to become Christ like and repent and recognize Jesus?
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God chose the Jews to reveal himself to the world. It has nothing to do with who gets saved and who does not. He fought for the Jews when they were obedient to him, which gave a picture of how God blesses those who are obedient from their hearts—and that included non-Jews. (He fights for them, provides for them, etc.) He punished the Jews severely when they rejected him—the same as when foreigners rejected him or their "devotion" was empty—and everyone got to see what the consequences of that were. God revealed these patterns for the express purpose of illustrating what happens spiritually to people.
Although it permeates almost every book of the Bible, the book of Jeremiah goes into detail. Deuteronomy 28 is one place that summarizes God's relationship with the Jews regarding being blessed and being cursed. How God treated the Jews was up to the Jews, not what God's calling and election for them were.
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