Emulation or imitaiton as a basis for faith

GrowingSmaller · Feb 27, 2017

In todays society there an emphasis on authenticity, thinking for yourself, individuality etc. Whatever you do... this mantra is a must... DON'T FOLLOW!!!!

In Islam there's the idea of "taqleed" or following a jurists opinion.

It also has the connotaiton of emulation, imitation.

Having been through many tough times I have looked at - and looked up to - some of the Muslim "elders". They're healthy and happy at a ripe old age, and AFAICT neither smoke nor drink. Nor are they isolated from community, their age is not a vice but a source of respect, and they have a sense of purpose in life. Virtues I appreciate and admire.

I just don't get that kind of inspiration from other faiths. Maybe the closest is reading Butlers "Lives of the Saints" - but they tend to be middle class super-people.

So is this a valid approach to life, or a sleazy cop out?

Say (O Muhammad

): "Travel in the land and see what was the end of those who rejected truth." (quran 6:11)

I am asking because there seems to be an assumption from secularists that authenticity, individuality etc.... are almost absolute virtues. Without them we're be lost, immoral, or ever worse: we'd be religious.

Dave-W · Feb 27, 2017

In Matt 28, we mature christians are COMMANDED to "go make disciples." We do not really understnad that institution today, but discipleship was well understood in first century Judea. It was all about emulation and imitation.

Matt 10.24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master. 25a It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master.

Robban · Feb 27, 2017

GrowingSmaller said:
In todays society there an emphasis on authenticity, thinking for yourself, individuality etc. Whatever you do... this mantra is a must... DON'T FOLLOW!!!!

In Islam there's the idea of "taqleed" or following a jurists opinion.

It also has the connotaiton of emulation, imitation.

Having been through many tough times I have looked at - and looked up to - some of the Muslim "elders". They're healthy and happy at a ripe old age, and AFAICT neither smoke nor drink. Nor are they isolated from community, their age is not a vice but a source of respect, and they have a sense of purpose in life. Virtues I appreciate and admire.

I just don't get that kind of inspiration from other faiths. Maybe the closest is reading Butlers "Lives of the Saints" - but they tend to be middle class super-people.

So is this a valid approach to life, or a sleazy cop out?

Say (O Muhammad

): "Travel in the land and see what was the end of those who rejected truth." (quran 6:11)

I am asking because there seems to be an assumption from secularists that authenticity, individuality etc.... are almost absolute virtues. Without them we're be lost, immoral, or ever worse: we'd be religious.

"What luck for rulers that men do not think."
(Adolf Hitler)

RDKirk · Feb 27, 2017

DaveW-Ohev said:
In Matt 28, we mature christians are COMMANDED to "go make disciples." We do not really understnad that institution today, but discipleship was well understood in first century Judea. It was all about emulation and imitation.

Matt 10.24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master. 25a It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master.

It appears in Asian cultures as well.

Anguspure · Feb 27, 2017

GrowingSmaller said:
In todays society there an emphasis on authenticity, thinking for yourself, individuality etc. Whatever you do... this mantra is a must... DON'T FOLLOW!!!!

In Islam there's the idea of "taqleed" or following a jurists opinion.

It also has the connotaiton of emulation, imitation.

Having been through many tough times I have looked at - and looked up to - some of the Muslim "elders". They're healthy and happy at a ripe old age, and AFAICT neither smoke nor drink. Nor are they isolated from community, their age is not a vice but a source of respect, and they have a sense of purpose in life. Virtues I appreciate and admire.

I just don't get that kind of inspiration from other faiths. Maybe the closest is reading Butlers "Lives of the Saints" - but they tend to be middle class super-people.

So is this a valid approach to life, or a sleazy cop out?

Say (O Muhammad

): "Travel in the land and see what was the end of those who rejected truth." (quran 6:11)

I am asking because there seems to be an assumption from secularists that authenticity, individuality etc.... are almost absolute virtues. Without them we're be lost, immoral, or ever worse: we'd be religious.

How about being filled with the Spirit of Christ which then becomes voluntary possession?

Nevertheless we are called to be imitators of Christ in that He laid down his life for others even unto death.

So the problem seems to be that the path of emulation or imitation is rather to difficult or to frightening to contemplate for most.

So Christ said:“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. (John 15)

Dave-W · Feb 27, 2017

RDKirk said:
It appears in Asian cultures as well.

Indeed, especially in Asian martial arts.

Dave-W · Feb 27, 2017

Anguspure said:
Nevertheless we are called to be imitators of Christ in that He laid down his life for others even unto death.

So the problem seems to be that the path of emulation or imitation is rather to difficult or to frightening to contemplate for most.

But Paul laid it all out:

1 Corinthians 11:1 Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.

juvenissun · Feb 27, 2017

GrowingSmaller said:
In todays society there an emphasis on authenticity, thinking for yourself, individuality etc. Whatever you do... this mantra is a must... DON'T FOLLOW!!!!

In Islam there's the idea of "taqleed" or following a jurists opinion.

It also has the connotaiton of emulation, imitation.

Having been through many tough times I have looked at - and looked up to - some of the Muslim "elders". They're healthy and happy at a ripe old age, and AFAICT neither smoke nor drink. Nor are they isolated from community, their age is not a vice but a source of respect, and they have a sense of purpose in life. Virtues I appreciate and admire.

I just don't get that kind of inspiration from other faiths. Maybe the closest is reading Butlers "Lives of the Saints" - but they tend to be middle class super-people.

So is this a valid approach to life, or a sleazy cop out?

Say (O Muhammad

): "Travel in the land and see what was the end of those who rejected truth." (quran 6:11)

I am asking because there seems to be an assumption from secularists that authenticity, individuality etc.... are almost absolute virtues. Without them we're be lost, immoral, or ever worse: we'd be religious.

I think what attracts you so far is the religious ritual and feeling, but not the religious content.

cloudyday2 · Feb 27, 2017

Somebody has to think for himself/herself - otherwise nobody will be thinking. Do we want everybody to think or do we only want the elite to think?

The problem for elderly probably comes more from the rapid pace of change in our modern world that makes their wisdom into foolishness. In addition, the elderly live too long. Instead of a relatively dignified death from a heart attack, the elderly can look forward to the loss of their mental faculties thru Alzheimers, Parkinsons, etc. - death in a nursing home while the children sigh in exhausted relief. I doubt if Islamic nations are immune to this sad reality.

In a nutshell, I don't think religion is a factor in the respect for elderly.

EDIT: Of course I am using a little hyperbole above. It is hard to respect an elderly person when biology reduces them to a state where they can no longer recognize people or carry on a conversation - Islam or no Islam. The children can hardly be accused of disrespect when they must put a parent in a nursing home rather than drain themselves physically and emotionally.

Robban · Feb 27, 2017

cloudyday2 said:
Somebody has to think for himself/herself - otherwise nobody will be thinking. Do we want everybody to think or do we only want the elite to think?

The problem for elderly probably comes more from the rapid pace of change in our modern world that makes their wisdom into foolishness. In addition, the elderly live too long. Instead of a relatively dignified death from a heart attack, the elderly can look forward to the loss of their mental faculties thru Alzheimers, Parkinsons, etc. - death in a nursing home while the children sigh in exhausted relief. I doubt if Islamic nations are immune to this sad reality.

In a nutshell, I don't think religion is a factor in the respect for elderly.

Of course some lose their marbles for one reason or another,

but looking around at the World today,
one can wonder if many have any marbles to begin with.

Anguspure · Feb 27, 2017

DaveW-Ohev said:
But Paul laid it all out:

1 Corinthians 11:1 Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.

How few do we see that emulate Paul, far less Christ?

GrowingSmaller · Feb 28, 2017

Robban said:
"What luck for rulers that men do not think."
(Adolf Hitler)

No its a result of calculation of odds. In Western "thinking mans culture"

Older people in the UK are often living in isolation, a charity has warned - putting them at risk of depression and ill-health caused by loneliness.

BBC NEWS | Health | Older people 'live in isolation'

I am not anti western, just being scientific.
IN fact I was thinking of orthodox jews as similar role models. Also they have "markers" like beards etc which are emblematic of their culture and lifestyle.

part of it is the organised culture, rather than continually surfing contingencies.

The Christican West is very individualistic, even if life of success (family etc) follows a pattern its not that organised in terms of social dynamics made easy for foolhardy and simple people like me.

Robban · Feb 28, 2017

GrowingSmaller said:
No its a result of calculation of odds. In Western "thinking mans culture"

Older people in the UK are often living in isolation, a charity has warned - putting them at risk of depression and ill-health caused by loneliness.

BBC NEWS | Health | Older people 'live in isolation'

I am not anti western, just being scientific.
IN fact I was thinking of orthodox jews as similar role models. Also they have "markers" like beards etc which are emblematic of their culture and lifestyle.

part of it is the organised culture, rather than continually surfing contingencies.

The Christican West is very individualistic, even if life of success (family etc) follows a pattern its not that organised in terms of social dynamics made easy for foolhardy and simple people like me.

Well, isolated, I know how that feels,
to be remaining,
surrounded by memories and photographs of those who have passed,
and not seeming to fit in anywhere,
however much one bends.

It is by the Grace of God we recieve a new day,

I would not call you foolish or simple.
Most probably you are a much better person than you give yourself credit for.

Dave-W · Feb 28, 2017

Anguspure said:
How few do we see that emulate Paul, far less Christ?

One cannot emulate someone who is dead; at least not in the sense Paul is saying. Every instance of the usage of "follower" (Strongs G3402) except 2** in the NT indicates following a living person or persons:

1Co 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers G3402 of me.

1Co 11:1 Be ye followers G3402 of me, even as I also am of Christ.

1Th 1:6 And ye became followers G3402 of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:

1Th 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers G3402 of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers G3402 of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

** Eph 5.1, 1 Pet 3.13

Anguspure · Feb 28, 2017

DaveW-Ohev said:
One cannot emulate someone who is dead; at least not in the sense Paul is saying. Every instance of the usage of "follower" (Strongs G3402) except 2** in the NT indicates following a living person or persons:

1Co 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers G3402 of me.

1Co 11:1 Be ye followers G3402 of me, even as I also am of Christ.

1Th 1:6 And ye became followers G3402 of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:

1Th 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers G3402 of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers G3402 of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

** Eph 5.1, 1 Pet 3.13

...so who emulates Christ? Who lays down his life even to death for his neighbor? Very few if any.

Dave-W · Feb 28, 2017

Anguspure said:
...so who emulates Christ? Who lays down his life even to death for his neighbor? Very few if any.

True enough. We lost the true meaning of discipleship (even though it is commanded in scripture) about 1800 years ago.

cloudyday2 · Feb 28, 2017

GrowingSmaller said:
No its a result of calculation of odds. In Western "thinking mans culture"

Older people in the UK are often living in isolation, a charity has warned - putting them at risk of depression and ill-health caused by loneliness.

BBC NEWS | Health | Older people 'live in isolation'

I am not anti western, just being scientific.
IN fact I was thinking of orthodox jews as similar role models. Also they have "markers" like beards etc which are emblematic of their culture and lifestyle.

part of it is the organised culture, rather than continually surfing contingencies.

The Christican West is very individualistic, even if life of success (family etc) follows a pattern its not that organised in terms of social dynamics made easy for foolhardy and simple people like me.

An important factor is birth rate. Most Western countries have low birth rates and long life spans, so there is a higher percentage of elderly. Furthermore, the young people in most Western countries are immigrants instead of children of the elderly.

Robban · Feb 28, 2017

Anguspure said:
...so who emulates Christ? Who lays down his life even to death for his neighbor? Very few if any.

Something like standing before the heavenly tribunal and being asked,
"Why were you not like Moses?"

"Heh, when did you show yourself to me in a burning bush?"

The question which may be a little more to the point could be,
"Why were you not you?"

The tribunal does not need our answers,
but we do.

Eyes wide Open · Feb 28, 2017

GrowingSmaller said:
In todays society there an emphasis on authenticity, thinking for yourself, individuality etc. Whatever you do... this mantra is a must... DON'T FOLLOW!!!!

In Islam there's the idea of "taqleed" or following a jurists opinion.

It also has the connotaiton of emulation, imitation.

Having been through many tough times I have looked at - and looked up to - some of the Muslim "elders". They're healthy and happy at a ripe old age, and AFAICT neither smoke nor drink. Nor are they isolated from community, their age is not a vice but a source of respect, and they have a sense of purpose in life. Virtues I appreciate and admire.

I just don't get that kind of inspiration from other faiths. Maybe the closest is reading Butlers "Lives of the Saints" - but they tend to be middle class super-people.

So is this a valid approach to life, or a sleazy cop out?

Say (O Muhammad

): "Travel in the land and see what was the end of those who rejected truth." (quran 6:11)

I am asking because there seems to be an assumption from secularists that authenticity, individuality etc.... are almost absolute virtues. Without them we're be lost, immoral, or ever worse: we'd be religious.

Authenticity is about creative expression, about creating who you are in the world, usually reflective of the arts in some fashion. Your appraisal of it shows a complete lack of understanding of the concept.

GrowingSmaller · Mar 1, 2017

Robban said:
I would not call you foolish or simple.
Most probably you are a much better person than you give yourself credit for.

It was an allusion to the proverbs, give instruction to the simple etc. In school I did quite well, but not in life.

Emulation or imitaiton as a basis for faith

Muslm Humanist

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!

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Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner

Kaitiaki Peacemakers NZ

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!

... and God saw that it was good.

Generic Theist

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Kaitiaki Peacemakers NZ

Muslm Humanist

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Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!

Kaitiaki Peacemakers NZ

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!

Generic Theist

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Love and peace is the ONLY foundation-to build....

Muslm Humanist

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