On the Changing Role of the Pope

They indeed to sad and dark days that rent the Church asunder, and indeed saw the Holy See authorise the invasion and plundering of Christian Nations, and the deposing of their Bishops. But we must not live in the past, we must look for the future and see in that future that all that was true at first will be true at last, but there is no way back into the past but through the future, there if anywhere the miracle must happen.

I note in the news today that the unexpected is to happen this month, Pope Francis to visit Anglican Church in Rome


So we give thanks for the signs of hope and unity that will bring us all back to the truth in Christ Jesus our Lord. And I know many of my friends in the East will say, we are right here waiting for you to come to your senses.

Constantine the Sinner said:

Here is from On the Unity of the Church, by Saint Cyprian of Carthage, 3rd Century

Certainly the other Apostles also were what Peter was, endued with an equal fellowship both of honour and power; but a commencement is made from unity, that the Church may be set before as one; which one Church, in the Song of Songs, doth the Holy Spirit design and name in the Person of our Lord: My dove, My spotless one, is but one; she is the only one of her mother, elect of her that bare her

Our Lord whose precepts and warnings we ought to observe, determining the honour of a Bishop and the ordering of His own Church, speaks in the Gospel and says to Peter, I say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build My Church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven. Thence the ordination of Bishops, and the ordering of the Church, runs down along the course of time and line of succession, so that the Church is settled upon her Bishops; and every act of the Church is regulated by these same Prelates.

Here is from Dictatus Papae, 11th Century

• (1) The Roman Church was founded by God alone.
• (2) The Roman Pontiff alone can with right be called "Universal".
• (3) He alone can depose or reinstate bishops.
• (4) In council, his Legate, even if a lower grade, is above all bishops and can pass sentence of deposition against them.
• (5) The Pope may depose the absent.
• (6) Among other things, we ought not to remain in the same house with those excommunicated by him.
• (7) For him alone is it lawful, according to the needs of the time, to make new laws, to assemble together new congregations, to make an abbey of a canonry, and, on the other hand, to divide a rich bishopric and unite the poor ones.
• (8) He alone may use the Imperial Insignia.
• (9) All princes shall kiss the feet of the Pope alone.
• (10) His name alone shall be spoken in the churches.
• (11) This is the only name in the world.
• (12) It may be permitted to him to depose emperors.
• (13) It may be permitted to him to transfer bishops, if need be.
• (14) He has the power to ordain the clerk of any parish he wishes.
• (15) He who is ordained by the Pope may preside over another church, but may not hold a subordinate position. Such a person may not receive a higher clerical grade from any other bishop.
• (16) No synod shall be called a 'General Synod' without his order.
• (17) No chapter and no book shall be considered canonical without his authority.
• (18) A sentence passed by him may be retracted by no one. He alone may retract it.
• (19) He himself may be judged by no one.
• (20) No one shall dare to condemn any person who appeals to the Apostolic Chair.
• (21) The more important cases of every church should be referred to the Apostolic See.
• (22) The Roman Church has never erred. Nor will it err, to all eternity--Scripture being witness.
• (23) The Roman Pontiff, if he has been canonically ordained, is undoubtedly made a saint by the merits of St. Peter, St. Ennodius Bishop of Pavia bearing witness, and many holy fathers agreeing with him. As it is contained in the decrees of Pope St. Symmachus.
• (24) By his command and consent, it may be lawful for subordinates to bring accusations.
• (25) He may depose and reinstate bishops without assembling a Synod.
• (26) He who is not at peace with the Roman Church shall not be considered 'catholic'.
• (27) He may absolve subjects from their fealty to wicked men.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies."
-Saint John Chrysostom

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"For, as your venerable Holiness knows, this name of Universality was offered by the holy synod of Chalcedon to the pontiff of the Apostolic See which by the providence of God I serve. But no one of my predecessors has ever consented to use this so profane a title; since, forsooth, if one Patriarch is called Universal, the name of Patriarch in the case of the rest is derogated." -St Gregory Dialogos, Pope of Rome

Philip_B said:

I note in the news today that the unexpected is to happen this month, Pope Francis to visit Anglican Church in Rome

Pope Francis will make a historic visit to an Anglican Church in Rome on Sunday. He’ll join the congregation at the Church of England chaplaincy of All Saints for a short Choral Evensong service; it will include the blessing of a specially commissioned icon and the twinning of All Saints with the Catholic parish of Ognissanti, a Rome church with strong ecumenical ties.
So we give thanks for the signs of hope and unity that will bring us all back to the truth in Christ Jesus our Lord. And I know many of my friends in the East will say, we are right here waiting for you to come to your senses.

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we do say that, but we also say it to our Anglican friends as well.

Ironically St. Cyprian wasn't even talking about the local Church at Rome. It was more about clergy who were schisming from the presiding bishops of their church.

I'm sorry, I thought I was in the Orthodox forum. Why are we talking about the pope?

Constantine the Sinner said:

Because he used to be Orthodox.

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This pope has never been orthodox in any sense

mea kulpa said:

This pope has never been orthodox in any sense

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and they keep drifting away from their Apostolic roots. tis sad.

ArmyMatt said:

and they keep drifting away from their Apostolic roots. tis sad.

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Its all part of the divine plan

mea kulpa said:

Its all part of the divine plan

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if you mean to drive the West home to Orthodoxy, then I am down (couldn't resist)

I thought Pope Tawadros was Orthodox.

Philip_B said:

I thought Pope Tawadros was Orthodox.

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he is Coptic, so not Orthodox. you meant Theodoros

ArmyMatt said:

if you mean to drive the West home to Orthodoxy, then I am down (couldn't resist)

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Well yeah kind of

John 12:32

Constantine the Sinner said:

Because he used to be Orthodox.

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By the way Constantine it didnt seem that you had a question in your OP. Was there something specific of what you posted up that you wanted a discussion of?

Probably the most importan aspect of this particular epistle of St. Cyprian is he condemns the protestant/ anglican branch theory:

5. And this unity we ought firmly to hold and assert, especially those of us that are bishops who preside in the Church, that we may also prove the episcopate itself to be one and undivided. Let no one deceive the brotherhood by a falsehood: let no one corrupt the truth of the faith by perfidious prevarication. The episcopate is one, each part of which is held by each one for the whole. The Church also is one, which is spread abroad far and wide into a multitude by an increase of fruitfulness. As there are many rays of the sun, but one light; and many branches of a tree, but one strength based in its tenacious root; and since from one spring flow many streams, although the multiplicity seems diffused in the liberality of an overflowing abundance, yet the unity is still preserved in the source. Separate a ray of the sun from its body of light, its unity does not allow a division of light; break a branch from a tree—when broken, it will not be able to bud; cut off the stream from its fountain, and that which is cut off dries up. Thus also the Church, shone over with the light of the Lord, sheds forth her rays over the whole world, yet it is one light which is everywhere diffused, nor is the unity of the body separated. Her fruitful abundance spreads her branches over the whole world. She broadly expands her rivers, liberally flowing, yet her head is one, her source one; and she is one mother, plentiful in the results of fruitfulness: from her womb we are born, by her milk we are nourished, by her spirit we are animated.
CHURCH FATHERS: Treatise 1 (Cyprian of Carthage)

Please keep Roman Catholic topics on the RC forum. This is the Orthodox forum, we are not Roman Catholics. I know that can be a, well, challenging concept for some people, but, we really are not Roman Catholics.

Thank you

mea kulpa said:

Well yeah kind of

John 12:32

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booyah

ArmyMatt said:

and they keep drifting away from their Apostolic roots. tis sad.

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They are becoming more Protestant, after VaticanII the Catholic Church has been Lutheranizied, however the drifting away been a problem With Rome for centuries.

Orthodoxjay1 said:

They are becoming more Protestant, after VaticanII the Catholic has been Lutheranizied, however the drifting away been a a problem With Rome for centuries.

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I dunno simply about being more Lutheran (although I can see your point), they seem to just be more of the world with each passing year.

Like I just mentioned in another thread, it's telling how popular Pope Francis is among non-Christians. And the typical Roman Catholic liturgy is just a mess of modernist nonsense. That's what drove me away toward Holy Orthodoxy.