Mary - Christian Prototype

Light of the East said:

Well, Joe, I certainly am not in a mood to argue with Scripture. The fact is that Abel is righteous.

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I never said he wasn't.

Light of the East said:

and all are reunited to God by the gift of grace through Christ's obedience.

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Then why do some go to Hell? If you argue they reject the gift of God, then you are saying that God is not sovereign, that man has a greater power to reject God.

Light of the East said:

I honestly don't know how much more clear this could be.

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The definition of "all" has a context.

Analogy:

A mother of 4 children is taking her children to go shopping. She loads them in the minivan and she gets in the driver's seat. She looks back to check on the 4 children and says "Are we all here?". Do you believe that she is asking if every human being that has ever existed is in that minivan? That would be irrational. Likewise, the Bible uses context to define the use of the word "all". And in this case "all" means the elect.

Light of the East said:

The idea of an "elect" who alone receive salvation and the rest are condemned to eternal torment is a hideous perversion of the love of God.

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You are denying the sovereign autonomous free will of God to do with His creation as He see fit, that He must bow down to the sovereign will of man. Please note that we do not know who the elect are, God does not reveal that to us, and it is not just a few.

Light of the East said:

Is man's will greater than God's will? Is the power of weak, sinful man greater than the power of the sovereign God? Of course not.

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But that is exactly what you are promoting, that man has the power to reject God's will, that God fails to save those He seeks to save, that God's will is frustrated by man.

Light of the East said:

If the work of Christ on the Cross is applied to all mankind, and if the will of God is the salvation of all mankind, then how do you say that it is not accomplished?

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This is a false premise. The work of the cross is not applied to all mankind, in the sense to all humans who have ever existed, so the rest of the question is fallacious. It is only for the elect. And again, we do not know who the elect are.

Light of the East said:

Some begin here, some do not. Do not judge what happens in the next life by what happens here in this life.

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So now you appear to be promoting postmortem salvation. Complete unbiblical.

Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

JoeP222w said:

I never said he wasn't.

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Yes, you did. You said that "righteousness is only in Christ." My response to you was that Christ was not even born when Abel was declared righteous, thus putting a pin to your argument. You have wandered from the original response that I was declaring in error.

Christ is not around. Abel is righteous. Therefore - righteousness is something that men can have exclusive to Christ.

Now....the fact is that the righteousness of Abel, or any man who came after him, was not enough to redeem mankind or himself. Abel's righteousness was insufficient to restore mankind and insufficient to take himself to heaven. It was an imperfect righteousness in that respect. It remained for the perfect righteousness of Christ to redeem mankind so that we could all be returned to the Father's house.

Then why do some go to Hell? If you argue they reject the gift of God, then you are saying that God is not sovereign, that man has a greater power to reject God.

There is no such place as hell. It is a strange and bizarre invention of Western theology, starting with Augustine and being codified by Anselm of Canterbury and Dante's imaginative INFERNO. The word that is translated "hell" in English is "the grave."

What there is ..... is God. God who is described as a burning fire in His passionate love for mankind and all Creation. God who is fiery love, and is described as

Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Are you getting the picture? According to Holy Orthodox traditional understanding of the afterlife, God has redeemed all mankind to Himself.....but not all will enjoy being with Him. To the wicked, the love of God will be an unwelcome presence, a TORMENT to them, as they want nothing to do with Him. As fire torments ice, so the love of God torments the wicked. Our selfishness, our self-centeredness, will be that which we desire, not the love of God, and His love will torment the wicked to the degree of wickedness they have.

For those who have repented and pursued God in this life, His fiery love will do two things: burn away the dross of any remaining sin, all remaining selfishness, and that which is not like Him, and it will be a joy, a pleasure beyond anything we could experience or understand in this life.

You seem to appreciate analogies, let me use one. A mother takes her children out to a nice day in the park. Three of them wish to go, but the fourth one, being in a snit over having eat her carrots for lunch, refuses to go. She is picked up by Mom and placed in the car (sovereignty). She screams and whines. To no avail. At the park, while the others are enjoying Mom's love, being on the swings and getting ice cream, the fourth is miserable. No amount of persuasion by Mom can make this child happy, because she is determined to be miserable.

So like the sinner being taken to heaven by the work of Christ and God's sovereign power, she could have a wonderful time...but it is her own decision to remain miserable.

The definition of "all" has a context.

Analogy:

A mother of 4 children is taking her children to go shopping. She loads them in the minivan and she gets in the driver's seat. She looks back to check on the 4 children and says "Are we all here?". Do you believe that she is asking if every human being that has ever existed is in that minivan? That would be irrational. Likewise, the Bible uses context to define the use of the word "all". And in this case "all" means the elect.

That is a terrible attempt. You ignore the context of the verse. Go back and look again.
[URL='https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rom/5/18/s_1051018'][/URL]
[URL='https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rom/5/18/s_1051018']Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. [/URL]

All men. That is all that ever lived or will ever live. Period. You violate grammatical principles to suddenly change "all men" to "just a few" when the same words ( pas anthropos) are being used within the same sentence. There is no mention of an "elect" neither is there any restrictions upon the understanding of the word "all." You are reading into the verse what you wish to see.

You are denying the sovereign autonomous free will of God to do with His creation as He see fit, that He must bow down to the sovereign will of man.

And like a good Calvinist, you are denying that God is love. Perhaps you really need to sit down with a good stein of lage and a fine cigar and meditate for a while what it means that God is love. Love does not treat others like trash. That is the essence of sin.

Please note that we do not know who the elect are, God does not reveal that to us, and it is not just a few.

The concept of the "elect" has to be taken in context. Was Paul speaking about all mankind of all times, or was he looking forward to the coming destruction of the Temple in AD 70 and declaring that only a few of the million Jews in Jerusalem would be "saved" at that time? Remember, the coming of the Lord and the judgment of God upon Israel spoke of in Matthew 23 and 24 was paramount in the minds of the Apostles. They knew it was coming and expected it soon.

And even then, for those who were not "elect" to escape the judgment of that event -- that is not the end of the story.

But that is exactly what you are promoting, that man has the power to reject God's will, that God fails to save those He seeks to save, that God's will is frustrated by man.

This is a false premise. The work of the cross is not applied to all mankind, in the sen

se to all humans who have ever existed, so the rest of the question is fallacious. It is only for the elect. And again, we do not know who the elect are.

Go to the fridge, get a beer, and read Romans 5: 18 until you understand that all means all.

So now you appear to be promoting postmortem salvation. Complete unbiblical. Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment.

Show me where it says that the mercy of God stops after we die. Show me where it says that the love of God stops after we die. And show me where it says that men cannot change after we die.

It may be possible that one could harden one's self to a degree that repentance is not possible, even after death, but in regards to that - what of God's sovereignty? To say that is to say that God cannot find a way to bring the most stubborn soul to repentance, which means that He is not sovereign, right?

And would a God who is love, who is also all-knowing, create mankind as sentient creatures, knowing that they would fall, and not have a remedy for even the worst of them? You make great claims about God's sovereignty, but you seem unwilling to take that all the way - that a truly sovereign God has both the knowledge to find a way to bring all to repentance, and the power to bring that to pass.

Or is man's will for sin greater than God's sovereignty and His love?

Light of the East said:

Yes, you did. You said that "righteousness is only in Christ."

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My post was not perfectly clear, I admit that. But Jesus Christ is God and He has eternally existed. Righteousness comes only from God, certainly not from works.

Light of the East said:

Christ is not around. Abel is righteous. Therefore - righteousness is something that men can have exclusive to Christ.

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False premise. The pre-incarnate Christ has always been present.

Light of the East said:

Abel's righteousness was insufficient to restore mankind and insufficient to take himself to heaven.

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So you are saying righteousness from God is insufficient, because Abel's righteousness came only from God, not something in and of Abel himself.

My post was not perfectly clear, I admit that. But Jesus Christ is God and He has eternally existed. Righteousness comes only from God, certainly not from works.

Faith is a work. The Bible says so.

The Word of the Father has always existed. Jesus, the Christ, who is the perfect human being, did not exist until St. Mary gave Him birth.

And Hebrews says that Abel was righteous. So how was he declared to be righteous unless he was righteous? And how was he righteous except by his works? John says this:

1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Works and faith are not two separate things. James makes this clear. Protestantism treats them as if they have nothing to do with each other.

False premise. The pre-incarnate Christ has always been present.

Wrong. The WORD has always been according to John 1. Christ means "anointed" and was specifically given to Jesus of Nazareth as anointed of God for the work of salvation? You cannot say that Christ Jesus was always present because He did not exist prior to the Incarnation. At the Incarnation, God became man, and was called "the anointed."

But for the sake of your argument, let's say that you are correct. It still says in Hebrews that Abel was righteous. It simply and specifically mentions Abel, without reference to Christ Jesus at all. Abel was righteous. End of discussion.

So you are saying righteousness from God is insufficient, because Abel's righteousness came only from God, not something in and of Abel himself.

??????? I have no idea what you are saying here because that is not only not what I said, it is the polar opposite of what I said. The righteousness of Christ was sufficient to do what no other man could do - restore mankind to union with God. Abel's righteousness was not sufficient for the redemption of mankind.

Scripture says that Abel was righteous, which means that he was in right relationship with God through his obedience. But even then, that relationship was not enough to restore mankind (and by extension, himself) to God. Therefore, upon death, Abel went to that waiting area called Paradise to await the redemption of mankind with the rest of the righteous through the ages.

JoeP222w said:

Romans 3:19-20 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. (20) For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Galatians 3:21-24 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. (22) But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. (23) Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. (24) So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.

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Yes. Your point?

Philip_B said:

Thank you for the response, I do understand what you are saying. I wonder sometimes if we don't sometimes throw the baby out with the bathwater. In a sense it seems such a clear image of where we should be as Christians, that in a sense we muddy the waters by speaking ill of her or de-emphasis.

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Hi phillip,

While I agree that Mary was most certainly a faithful servant of our God and that she was also greatly blessed of God, I think there are a lot of very good examples of what living a life faithful to God is like within the pages of the Scriptures.

Daniel - a man who faced persecution from his contemporaries and was strongly challenged to turn away from a life of faithfulness and was also greatly blessed of God, lived a life that any christian would do well to emulate.

Abraham - the first of God's chosen people who was declared righteous by his faith and trust in God, is someone we would do well to emulate.

Ruth - a woman who exemplified faith in a God that she did not know until Naomi took her under her wing.

Elijah - who could possibly find anyone with a stronger faith than Elijah who maintained under persecution and called down fire from heaven.

Yes, Mary was a faithful woman who was highly favored and greatly blessed of God. As far as we know, Joseph was also. After all, here's a man who was told once that the child in the womb of his betrothed was of the Holy Spirit and he never doubted and never faltered to then take her as his wife. I contend that there are quite a few examples of true faithfulness to God within the Scriptures and any of us would do well to emulate any of them.

I agree with many of the non-Catholics/Anglicans that have answered here that Mary is a good example of what a godly woman should be like, but that's as far as it goes. As a person in need of a Savior she isn't any different than any of the other great personages that we read of throughout the Scriptures who did great things for God.

Moses was used of God to set His people free from their bondage in Egypt. Daniel was used of God to give us one of the greatest prophecies of all the Scriptures. Abraham was used of God to bring out of the people of the world a people who would be God's people to do His bidding upon the earth. All great people of God and all completing the role for which God had prepared for them in bringing about His salvation to the whole earth.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

Philip_B said:

Hi Tted,

Thanks for that, I understand where you are coming from, and at one level I want to agree with you, however it does seem to me that at the centre of human history, at the pivotal period of our redemption there is this young Jewish woman who says YES to God in a unique way, and that in some way she is not simply another holy woman, though clearly she is, but somehow something else as well. As the people of the first Exodus recognised the importance of the tabernacle, where was encamped the very Glory of God - sheikanah - Mary become the tabernacle of the New Covenant, the very role the Church is now called to play in the world. We do not always do it well, but I believe we do it best when we can say Yes - not to the new age nor the calls for relevance nor calls to stand for this or that, but when we say YES to God.

In a really special way I think Mary teaches us to say YES to God more fully that we have before.

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Hi Phillip,

Yes, Mary said yes to God. So did Moses. So did Daniel. So did Abraham. So did Elijah. No, Mary did not become the 'tabernacle of the New Covenant'. Mary was a woman whose womb was used of God to deliver to the world His Son and our Savior.

I appreciate that for you Mary is some symbol of holiness that teaches you to say YES to God more fully than you have before. If that's what it takes for you to be more fully devoted to God, then so be it and may God bless you in that desire. For me, Daniel is the example of a godly man that causes me to want to be more devoted to God. We don't really know much about Mary's life except the few months before and after her pregnancy. After that, Mary goes on and lives her life and we catch glimpses here and there that she's still around, but there's really nothing beyond the birth of our Lord, which certainly wasn't any doing of her own power, to really tell us anything about Mary and how she lived her life and how devoted she was to God.

Daniel? Well, we know that after being taken captive to Babylon that he chose against the orders of the king and his servants not to defile himself with the king's food. While all the other captives were likely just eating whatever they could find or whatever was set before them, Daniel stood for the righteous laws and commands of God to His people and refused to allow himself to be defiled by eating the meats and other unclean foods that the Babylonians ate.

Daniel lived a life of respect for a despot king. Something that we here in the United States are sorely in need of in these trying times of leadership. Daniel prayed regularly and daily to God and apparently studied the Scriptures as we're told that he learned of the soon ending captivity through the writings of Jeremiah. God himself commended Daniel through the words of his angel as being 'highly esteemed'. Pretty much the same thing He conveyed to Mary through her angelic visitation.

Friend, Mary is a tool in the hands of a loving God. She had a purpose in God's plan just the same as Abraham and Moses had. Each one chosen of God for a special task, a part if you will, in the complete unfolding of God's salvation for mankind. Mary wouldn't have existed if Abraham had not come first. It was through Abraham that God built up and established His people who would do His bidding upon the earth. Those who penned the Scriptures. Those who did each of their parts in bringing to fruition God's great plan of salvation are just as important to our even knowing God and finding out what it means to have faith in him, as Mary. She is merely one of the faithful people that God used throughout the years from Abraham to Jesus in fulfilling His great plan.

Then, after Jesus paid the price for sin and ascended into heaven, Mary's faithfulness to God was carried on through the disciples. Paul, Peter, John and all the first disciples held faithful to God and continued to teach us how to live out a life of faithfulness to our God. They are all important to our faith and they are all sinners saved by the grace and mercy of a loving Creator.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

Philip_B said:

Hebrews 2:17
Therefore he had to become like his brothers and sisters in every respect,
so that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God,
to make a sacrifice of atonement for the sins of the people.​

I know that Paul does not like it, however I think you may be helped in understanding what I am saying if you had a glance at the arguments put forward by Anselm in his work Cur Deus Homo. Without the role of Mary - who I would argue was not simply a vassal but a willing participant in the plan of God, we could not say as is attested in Hebrews 'Therefore he had to become like his brothers and sisters in every respect'.

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Your so important verse, Hebrews 2:17 teaches that Jesus is just like any other man or woman, in his humanity of course. For some reason you think Mary had to be special in order for Jesus' flesh to be normal, just like everyone else.

Scripture is clear why Jesus is so special. Because he existed before he took on flesh. That means his Spirit/soul was not a new creation, but came down from heaven. Scripture says not a word about Jesus having some special physique of note.

Your verse only convinces against your argument. Jesus had normal flesh from a normal mother, Mary.

Paul Yohannan said:

The reason why St. Mary is the most important saint is blindingly obvious: she alone is the Mother of God.

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Just wondering why you capitalize Mother. Is that done typically in your church? I thought we only do that for God.

Paul Yohannan said:

St. Mary is the most important woman in the Bible, first among the saints.

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AnticipateHisComing said:

Not what scripture says. Further Jesus said differently, that John the Baptist was greater than any born of women.

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Paul Yohannan said:

Actually, it is what Scripture says, on the basis of John 1 and Luke 1.

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As already brought up, Luke 1 speaks only to Mary being blessed above women. Further it says nothing about her position in heaven. Lastly, understand the difference between being blessed by God vs. being the greatest/first. You stated that Mary is first among the saints.

John 1 says nothing about Mary, unless you want to twist scripture and make John 1:13 say that the mother of Jesus was God.

Paul Yohannan said:

Once again, you quote our Lord only partially, and with deleterious effect. For our Lord goes on to make it clear that that does not apply in the Kingdom of Heaven,

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Did you just claim the ability to judge what one's position in heaven will be? John the Baptist and Mary were both alive when Jesus said:

Matthew 11:11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

You have no scriptural way of judging the saints to know their position in heaven. Scripture does say we will be rewarded in heaven for what we have done on earth. The most simplistic way would be to say if you were great on earth, you would be great in heaven. Still this is just an assumption. Jesus did say the apostles will sit on 12 thrones in heaven and Revelation says God is surrounded in heaven by 24 elders sitting on thrones, so I assume the apostles to be of them. But, no mention of Mary in heaven.

The point of the second half of the Matthew 11:11 verse is that the glory of heaven is so much greater than we have on earth, such that the lowest person on earth that has died and went to heaven, is in greater glory than John the Baptist had while LIVING. It stands to reason that John the Baptist is now greater than the lowest person in heaven.

Paul Yohannan said:

where St. Mary the Theotokos now dwells bodily.

We are blessed on Earth with the holy and wonderworking relics of St. John, whereas St. Mary was, along with St. Elias and our Lord, assumed into Heaven bodily (albeit in her case, at the time of her natural death, allowing her experience of the human condition to be perfect and complete, for she is the new Eve, just as Christ is the new Adam).

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There is no scripture that says Mary is bodily in heaven, different than any other dead saint.

Paul Yohannan said:

The reason why St. Mary is the most important saint is blindingly obvious: she alone is the Mother of God.

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Do you have children? You should know it can't be done alone. It should be blindingly obvious if you read scripture, that Jesus was special among men because he was conceived by the Holy Spirit, not because Mary was so special. And you wonder why some think Mary is worshiped.

Paul Yohannan said:

That being said, Sts. Joachim and Anna are the Holy and Righteous Forebears of our Lord God Incarnate. They are not as close to God as St. Mary, because they did not physically give birth to Him; they did not suckle God at their breast, or feed, care and nurture Him as a child. The intimate and unique bond between mother and child lies at the heart of the hyperdoulia.

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And no better proof of this is in Jesus' words himself.

Luke 11:27 As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”
Luke 11:28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

And what did Paul teach of positions of women vs men? I guess all the men and women that never nursed a baby are just automatically lower than women that did. Oh how you glorify the flesh.

Do I need to point out again that this is just unscriptural speculation?

Open Heart said:

Yes. Your point?

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Keeping the law does not make one righteous before God. And we are incapable of keeping God's law. That is why God sees all of our good "deeds" as filthy rags.

JoeP222w said:

Keeping the law does not make one righteous before God. And we are incapable of keeping God's law. That is why God sees all of our good "deeds" as filthy rags.

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Okay. So???

Philip_B said:

Good, I am glad you understand my point. Please do not try and make my point something other than what it is.

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You started this chain discussion with a post that elevates Mary's role in our atonement and soteriology. I stated that scripture does not support a doctrine of soteriology that requires any understanding or reverence of Mary, save that she descended from David. You responded with quoting Hebrews 2:17 and commenting on it.

Was your point, that I make out to be something it is not, supposed to be a rebuttal of my post? Was your point supposed to be a defense of your previous statement? Don't fault me for taking your responses to my questions of your statements as an attempt to refute my rebuttals.

Now you seem to agree that Mary was as I said, a normal human; far different than what started this chain. So I am at a loss as to why you continue this argument.

JoeP222w said:

Keeping the law does not make one righteous before God. And we are incapable of keeping God's law. That is why God sees all of our good "deeds" as filthy rags.

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Still wrong. If our good deeds are as "filthy rags" then Abel would not have been said to be righteous. In fact, all of the people in Hebrews 11 would not have been said to be righteous.

The verse you quote was written in the book of Isaiah, one of the books written in captivity. Isaiah lamented that the righteousness of his people was as filthy rags. And why? Because it was just that - they were a people of idolatry, oppression of the just, and grinding the faces of the poor. Isaiah was speaking expressly about the Jews of his time. What he said was not to be taken in a manner to suggest that every person on the face of the earth is unrighteous.

If that were true, then none of people in the Bible who are called righteous would have been termed as such.

JoeP222w said:

certainly not from works.

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That is inaccurate. Certain works are inherently righteousnin that they are in alighment with the uncreated energies of God.

The following acts are always righteous, and in performing them, unit the human doing them with God:

• Feeding the hungry
• Caring for the sick
• Sheltering the homeless
• Giving alms
• Clothing the naked
• Burying the dead
• Comforting the distressed
• Confessing Christ before men

These actions are acts of love. God is love. Any act of love is a righteous act. As St. James writes, Christians who do not do these good works do not have a living faith. I would go so far as to say a Christian who does not give alms or help the poor is a hypocrite.

Jesus Christ makes it clear that he will reject such people, in Matthew 25.

Indeed, I believe that a nuda fide or solo fide soteriology is unbiblical based on Matthew 7:21-23 and Matthew 28:19. Even the more reasonable Lutheran and Anglican model of Sola Fide chokes a bit on the Gospel of Matthew (not as much as on the Epistle of James, which Luther tried to delete from the Bible), but it is impossible in light of the Gospel of Matthew to say that works play no part in salvation.