Futurist Only 12 Reasons Why the Pre-Trib Rapture Theory is a Lie

1stcenturylady said:

Curious, don't pre-tribbers also believe the graves will be opened at the rapture? You seemed to imply they did not.

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As all believers of a rapture cannot decide the when, who, what for and why of that false theory, I can't pin down anything specific about it.

1stcenturylady said:

All that is required is a yes or no answer, but no, you want me to read 500 articles? Yikes!

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Just read all the Bible with an open mind.
My articles are to help people understand what is actually written there. Try a few, you might like the fresh air of honest teaching.

2Timothy2:15 said:

It is the doctrine of pre-trib rapture not found in Matthew 24. Actually the word rapture isni't n 1 Corinthians either, the word harpazo which is to be caught up is but does not give a timeline just that it will happen. To get things straight, I do believe Jesus is coming back for his church, just not in the way it is taught by pre-tribbers.

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No rapture doctrine is in Matthew 24, not just pre-Trib. It couldn't be as the rapture was still hidden at that time. Just because you disagree with pre-tribbers doesn't mean that Matthew 24 somehow destroys the doctrine. It not being mentioned in that passage is exactly what one would expect to see concerning a still hidden event.

And yes, it is in 1 Corinthians. Harpazo is rapture. You can do some research on it to see the exact details. Basically, the modern English word 'rapture' is the product of several transliterations of the Latin word translated from 'harpazo', but it's the same thing. It's a modern English derivative of an ancient Greek word.

According to Romans 11 Israel is the natural olive tree, and Gentiles are grafted into it. Because of most of national Israel's rejection of Christ, they were partially blinded, but not forever. No, only until the fullness of the Gentiles come into true Israel - the Church. THEN all national Israel will be saved. National Israel, according to prophecy in Daniel, has one 7 year period left to them.

Why in the world do we think the Church is Gentile? No! We are merely grafted in, and we thank God for it. But the rest of national Israel WILL come into the Church during those last seven years. Then, and only then, will Christ return for His CHURCH.

SeventyOne said:

The rapture wasn't explicitly revealed until Paul did so in 1 Corinthians 15:51. Before then it was still a mystery. Which means, by definition, you wouldn't find it revealed in Matthew 24 anyway. So, just because it isn't found there doesn't invalidate it as it was still an unrevealed mystery.

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1 Corinthians 15:51-55 is about the resurrection...there is not even a mention of going to Heaven after the resurrection.


1 Corinthians 15:51

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Riberra said:

1 Corinthians 15:51-55 is about the resurrection...there is not even a mention of going to Heaven after the resurrection.


1 Corinthians 15:51

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

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I just thought of something. How can any Christian believe there is life on other planets, especially aliens and flying saucers. Obviously, they are demons.

With a new heaven and a new earth, all such aliens would be destroyed. If they never sinned, as some think, then is that fair?

It's amazing what even a Christian is capable of falling for, such as evolution, or aliens. Every Christian desperately needs to study Scripture to be smart enough not to be seduced by such diabolical theories.

SeventyOne said:

Well, I have, but that response doesn't make any sense. You are the one seeking information, not me. Unless you are implying it is somehow my responsibility to do your research for you. I assure you that it is not.

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You missed what I was saying. If you have done the research, then unfold it in front of us. If your research makes no sense, then the whole Pre-trib rapture makes no sense. But YOU have to show me!

sdowney717 said:

The one who restrains is Michael Archangel who throughout scripture has fought Satan.
The Holy Spirit never leaves His people, Jesus said He would never leave or forsake us.
And obviously there are Christians on earth when He returns.

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HONK! Wrong, but thank you for playing.

The correct answer is that, as the Holy Spirit never leaves His people, then it won't be until the END of the Tribulation, when Jesus comes down to earth to battle satan. Then while satan is locked up for 1000 years, all is peace. Then satan and his crew, and the rest of the sinners get flushed down the lake of fire, and God wins!

SeventyOne said:

No rapture doctrine is in Matthew 24, not just pre-Trib. It couldn't be as the rapture was still hidden at that time. Just because you disagree with pre-tribbers doesn't mean that Matthew 24 somehow destroys the doctrine. It not being mentioned in that passage is exactly what one would expect to see concerning a still hidden event.

And yes, it is in 1 Corinthians. Harpazo is rapture. You can do some research on it to see the exact details. Basically, the modern English word 'rapture' is the product of several transliterations of the Latin word translated from 'harpazo', but it's the same thing. It's a modern English derivative of an ancient Greek word.

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Isn't the Greek for "caught up" in Thessalonians where we get "raptured." What I find hilarious is hearing pre-tribbers believing they are the only ones who believe in the Rapture.

Might as well give up guys.. these folks are never going to admit they saw a shark fin and not dolphins' !

Archmike said:

12 Reasons Why the Pre-Trib Rapture and The Doctrine of Imminency is a Lie


1) The Gathering can only occur after 6 of the 7 trumps have been sounded. 1 Cor 15:52 states that the Gathering will occur at the sounding of the 7th trump.
The 6 trumps have not been sounded to date.

2) Christ’s last days on earth was an example to show us the proper orientation of the great tribulation relative to the resurrection. He was seized, imprisoned, beaten, tried, killed, and THEN resurrected, in that order. So, as per Christ's example, we shall see great tribulation before we are resurrected, or gathered.

3) All 3 of the Gospel accounts in Mt 24, Mk 13 & Lk 21 show us Christ’s words stating “after that tribulation, shall his Appearing take place”.

4) Paul states in 2 Thess 2:1-4 that The Gathering shall occur after the AOD is committed.

5) Rev 14 shows us that The Mark – as an integral part of the GT – is dispensed before The Harvest of Rev 14:14.

6) If the Elect of Christ are gathered before the GT, who is Christ talking to in Mt 24, Mk 13 & Lk 21?

7) Warnings about The Mark are repeated 7 times in The Revelation. If The Elect are not on earth during the GT, who is Christ warning 7 times ?

8) A pre-trib rapture would render The Revelation useless to Christians.

9) The AC must first wage war on Christians for 42 months, as per Dan 7:21 & 25, 8:24, 11:33-35, 12:3, 7 & 10, and Rev 12:17, along with many other passages.

10) Daniel 9:27 said that at the time of the AOD, the AC puts an end to the sacrifice. The sacrifice results from the war he conducts against Christians. Therefore, Christians are the sacrifice.

11) Common sense should dictate to anyone that no Christian, in the history of Christianity, has ever escaped trial and tribulation by resurrection or rapture. Those that have lived life as the poor in the trenches of life, know The Truth, inherently, that they will not be raptured from harm in the great tribulation.

The pre-trib rapture theory is a doctrine started by SATAN and propagated by the blind and weak in spirit.

12) This ET’s generation will be as wicked as it was in the days of Noah. Christians, also, shall generally be less worthy of inclusion in The Elect until they have endured persecution, so that they are refined like gold, and tested in the fire of Great Tribulation.

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I agree in fact I believe a mid tri rapture tbh, based off reading/teachings by my pastor I believe 3 1/2 years in the 7 year period when the beast sort of gets set up then whoever is saved will be raptured away but not before. (i'm referring to those that are still alive during this time of course, not those that happen to die before this even happens and I hope that happens to me tbh not gonna lie).

stephen583 said:

Might as well give up guys.. these folks are never going to admit they saw a shark fin and not dolphins' !

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The fact is, that there are only a few people whose minds are not already made up on this issue. And aside from those very few people, no one is going to get anyone else to change their mind.

The hard truth is that, whether anyone is willing to admit it or not, athough the Bible very clearly says that the rapture says that the great event which has come to be called "the rapture" will indeed take place, it simply does not state the timing of this event in regard to the other end time events mentioned in the Bible.

Those who claim that the Bible very clearly says it will take place after the tribulation, base that claim on a rank assumption that there is only one return of Christ in the Bible. But there was not even one Old Testament prophecy that aid the great promised Messiah would come more than once. But we know that He came once, and the New Testament says He is coming again. This is hard proof, that simply that fact that no scripture says He will return more that once, that does not prove that He is not coming more than just one more time. For two comings hidden within Bible prophecy, without ever, even once, saying it, has already happened once in the Bible.

So ALL positions on the timing of the rapture are based on interpretations of scripture. And ALL interpretations of scripture carry the possibility that we may have not interpreted them correctly.

So, although it is indeed legitimate to debate the timing of the rapture, and even to debate it energetically, it is NOT appropriate to call other interpretations on this subject, or their teachers, evil.

SeventyOne said in post #182:

No rapture doctrine is in Matthew 24, not just pre-Trib.

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Note that the rapture is the gathering together of the church to Jesus at his second coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which Jesus mentions in Matthew 24:30-31, Mark 13:26-27, and John 14:3.

SeventyOne said in post #182:

It couldn't be as the rapture was still hidden at that time.

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Are you thinking of 1 Corinthians 15:51? If so, note that Paul did not call the rapture a mystery in 1 Corinthians 15:51. For Jesus had already clearly taught the rapture in the Gospels (John 14:3b, Matthew 24:30-31, Mark 13:26-27; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1). Instead, the mystery explained in 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 (cf. John 11:26) is the instantaneous changing of living Christians into immortal physical bodies at the same, second-coming time that the bodies of dead Christians will be resurrected from their graves into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-55; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Romans 8:23-25). It is only after this physical, second-coming resurrection and changing that the rapture (the physical catching up together/gathering together) of all Christians will occur (1 Thessalonians 4:16b-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3b).

SeventyOne said in post #182:

Harpazo is rapture.

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That's right.

Some Christians hate to use the word "rapture" because it is nowhere found in the Bible. But just as it is okay to use the English word "Bible", even though it is not in the Bible, so it should be okay to use the English word "rapture". And it is derived from the root of the Latin word "rapiemur", which is how the old Latin (Vulgate) translation of the Bible translated the original Greek word (harpazo) translated as "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. So the "rapture" is the church's being "caught up" together to Jesus at his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which is the same as the church's being "gathered together" to Jesus at his second coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Christians need to be wary of the mistaken idea (held by some) that no rapture will occur at Jesus' second coming. For such an idea could be employed in our future by the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20, Revelation 13:13-15) to fool some Christians into thinking that Jesus' second coming has happened (Matthew 24:23-26) without Jesus having to have raptured (caught up together/gathered together) the church to hold a meeting in the sky with him at his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the physically-resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then physically reign on the earth for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

1stcenturylady said in post #183:

According to Romans 11 Israel is the natural olive tree, and Gentiles are grafted into it.

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That's right.

For just as all believers are individual branches in the vine which is Jesus Christ (John 15:5), the only way to salvation (John 14:6, Acts 4:12), so all believers are individual branches in the good olive tree of Israel, the Jews' own tree (Romans 11:17,24, Jeremiah 11:16-17). For all Jewish believers remain part of Israel (Romans 11:1) as the natural branches in the tree of Israel (Romans 11:24). And all Gentile believers have been grafted as branches from a wild olive tree into the tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), so that they can partake of the salvation of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). This does not mean that a wild branch becomes a natural branch, that a Gentile believer becomes a genetic Jew, but that Gentile believers, even while remaining branches from a wild olive tree, even while remaining genetic Gentiles, are still grafted in to become part of the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24).

Similarly, all those in the church, whether Jews or Gentiles, are spiritually Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29). And Abraham's seed is Israel (Isaiah 41:8, Romans 11:1; 2 Chronicles 20:7). So the entire church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). Not just the Jews in the church (e.g. Romans 11:1b), but also the Gentiles in the church, are spiritually Abraham's seed of promise (Romans 9:7-8,24), as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28), and as Jesus is (Galatians 3:16,29). And so Gentiles in the church, along with Jews in the church, are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 15:27, Galatians 3:29b, Romans 11:17,24).

JESUS=G.O.A.T said in post #190:

I agree in fact I believe a mid tri rapture tbh, based off reading/teachings by my pastor I believe 3 1/2 years in the 7 year period when the beast sort of gets set up then whoever is saved will be raptured away but not before.

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Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a mid-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus will not come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That is why the marriage of the church does not happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' second coming and the physical resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same second coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same second coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus will not return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there is a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits (at least one time) in a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the third temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be physically resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

When it is said that the Bible clearly says there will be a rapture, it needs to be stated where those 'raptured' go to.

The 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, 'proof' text, does not 'clearly' give the destination for those who remain, so any idea that they go to heaven, is just speculation.
But as Jesus has descended from heaven, to Return for His Millennium reign; as per Matthew 24:30-31 and Revelation 19:11-14, for Him to turn around and go back there is hard to believe. There isn't any scripture to support this idea.

Re those who abuse and vilify anyone who challenges their beliefs, esp the 'rapture', the Lord is the Judge and I leave it up to Him to vindicate me.

Biblewriter said in post #191:

Those who claim that the Bible very clearly says it will take place after the tribulation, base that claim on a rank assumption that there is only one return of Christ in the Bible. But there was not even one Old Testament prophecy that aid the great promised Messiah would come more than once.

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Note that there was a contrast between the Old Testament prophecies regarding the Messiah's/the Christ's coming, with some of them showing him coming to be meekly crucified for our sins (Isaiah 53, Psalms 22), and others showing him physically descending from heaven to wage war and to physically reign on the earth (Zechariah 14, Micah 4:1-4). But nothing in the Old or New Testament requires a future (to us), pre-tribulation coming of Christ versus only a post-tribulation coming of Christ. For all of the as-yet-unfulfilled Old and New Testament prophecies regarding Christ's coming will be fulfilled at or sometime after his post-tribulation coming.

Biblewriter said in post #191:

So, although it is indeed legitimate to debate the timing of the rapture, and even to debate it energetically, it is NOT appropriate to call other interpretations on this subject, or their teachers, evil.

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Good point.

But the mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture in itself could still be considered dangerous, because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he lied to them and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think: "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking that the rapture was supposed to be pre-tribulation. Satan has not defeated God, and God did not lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some Christians completely unprepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything that they are going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so that they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or Jesus' return, immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

1stcenturylady said:

What I find hilarious is hearing pre-tribbers believing they are the only ones who believe in the Rapture.

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Where are you hearing that?

Monk Brendan said:

You missed what I was saying. If you have done the research, then unfold it in front of us. If your research makes no sense, then the whole Pre-trib rapture makes no sense. But YOU have to show me!

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Actually, I don't have to do anything. I knew exactly what you were saying, and quite frankly, I didn't appreciate your presumption with my time.

I've spent a lot of time in the past doing just what you describe, only with the result of providing mockers more stuff to mock. You know, casting pearls before swine and all that.

I don't do anybody's research for them anymore, and I'm not interested in 'winning' anyone over to my point of view.

Riberra said:

1 Corinthians 15:51-55 is about the resurrection...there is not even a mention of going to Heaven after the resurrection.


1 Corinthians 15:51

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

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Yea, it's both, but I understand your confusion if you are trying to split up the two.

/nvm