What is New Covenant Theology ?

JM

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Of course there was moral law before Sinai.

BA, you agreed with Gideon, awesome. Seems like you two are on the same page.

But we should not equate the decalogue given to Moses as THE moral law.

Why not, Paul does in Romans...over and over again.

"...Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus."

So, Gentiles have the Law by nature, because at creation it was "written on their hearts."

The decalogue was the codified version of moral law, limited and inferior to that written on our heart when Christ becomes our master.

And why was it given along with the rest of the covenant to Moses? "...the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased..." The thought is as damnable as the deed so the moral Law was given to Moses along with the ordinances and trappings of ceremonial Law so that “sin would abound” or be clearly seen and understood.

New Covt. Theology does not say that we are without moral law.

Which is the point I've been making over and over again. NCT acknowledges 9 out of the 10 commandments. BA would never tell you it was ok to have a god before God (1st), make an idol (2nd), take the Lord's name in vain (3rd), skip church for gluttonous self pursuit (4th), dishonour your parents (6th), BA would never say it was ok to commit adultery (7th), take something that didn't belong to you regardless of the value (8th), gossip and lie (9th) or covet (10th). NCT denies all of the above if it's mentioned in the same breath as "moral Law" but affirms all 10 along some other quasi-standard.

Which one of the above commandments are you allowed to break?

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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BABerean2

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BA, you agreed with Gideon, awesome. Seems like you two are on the same page.



Why not, Paul does in Romans...over and over again.

"...Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus."

So, Gentiles have the Law by nature, because at creation it was "written on their hearts."



And why was it given along with the rest of the covenant to Moses? "...the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased..." The thought is as damnable as the deed so the moral Law was given to Moses along with the ordinances and trappings of ceremonial Law so that “sin would abound” or be clearly seen and understood.



Which is the point I've been making over and over again. NCT acknowledges 9 out of the 10 commandments. BA would never tell you it was ok to have a god before God (1st), make an idol (2nd), take the Lord's name in vain (3rd), skip church for gluttonous self pursuit (4th), dishonour your parents (6th), BA would never say it was ok to commit adultery (7th), take something that didn't belong to you regardless of the value (8th), gossip and lie (9th) or covet (10th). NCT denies all of the above if it's mentioned in the same breath as "moral Law" but affirms all 10 along some other quasi-standard.

Which one of the above commandments are you allowed to break?

Yours in the Lord,

jm

JM,

If you could just admit that your manmade confession is wrong, you would be OK.

No manmade confession that claims the 10 commandments were given before Mount Sinai will ever be correct.

You can ignore Paul's clear teaching that the Sinai covenant was temporary in Galatians chapter 3, if you want to.

However, you will never sell the idea to myself or Gideon, because Exodus 34:28 and Deuteronomy 5:1-3 are written in our Bibles.

You would be better off getting a job at a reformed seminary. Then you could surround yourself with others who will slap you on the back and tell you that you are correct.


I have some exciting news to share with you.

My wife and I will be attending a New Covenant Theology conference to be held in Myrtle Beach, SC, in a few weeks.
I will be thinking of you and your 1689 London Baptist Confession, while I am there.


I wish Gideon could travel half way around the world to attend. I will be thinking of him, also.

I love both of you guys...

.
 
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JM

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JM,

If you could just admit that your manmade confession is wrong, you would be OK.

Brother, I love your consistency. But please recognize that confessions are only useful, that's why I reference them, they are not my standard for doctrine.

No manmade confession that claims the 10 commandments were given before Mount Sinai will ever be correct.

If you deny the moral Law but would never willing break the commandment or teach others to do so...you are in silent agreement with that confession.

You can ignore Paul's clear teaching that the Sinai covenant was temporary in Galatians chapter 3, if you want to.

Do you see how you are confusing the two issues?

First point, you acknowledge that historic Christianity confesses and believes the 10 Commandments came before the giving of the Mosaic covenant.

Second point, you claim the Mosaic covenant was temporary.

If the moral Law existed before the Mosaic covenant and the Mosaic covenant was temporary how does one logically conclude God's moral standard has been done away with? The logic doesn't follow. It isn't in agreement with Paul...at all. It's not New Covenant Theology but a New Form of Antinomianism. You are confusing the Mosaic Covenant with moral Law and I have already demonstrated that all 10 Commandments existed before Sinai and sinners were punished by God. @Gideon recognized that.

"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people."

However, you will never sell the idea to myself or Gideon, because Exodus 34:28 and Deuteronomy 5:1-3 are written in our Bibles.

Your silent confession is very telling.

You would be better off getting a job at a reformed seminary. Then you could surround yourself with others who will slap you on the back and tell you that you are correct.

Ok, I'll play...like you and gideon are doing in this thread, on this forum...everyday? Slapping each other on the backs, congratulating each other even when your points are extremely weak and you can't even agree? haha

Please answer the question, which of the 10 Commandments can we, as Christians willing break?

I said I'd play...

What do you get when you take the Rapture out of Dispensationalism?

New Covenant Theology! lol

If you deny the moral Law but would never willing break any commandment...(Jeff Foxworthy voice) you might be New Covenant Theology.

I have some exciting news to share with you.
My wife and I will be attending a New Covenant Theology conference to be held in Myrtle Beach, SC, in a few weeks.
I will be thinking of you and your 1689 London Baptist Confession, while I am there.

Have a fun and safe trip. Enjoy your time together and may God bless you and your wife.

I wish Gideon could travel half way around the world to attend. I will be thinking of him, also.
I love both of you guys...

.

Peace brother.
 
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Gideon

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I have some exciting news to share with you.

My wife and I will be attending a New Covenant Theology conference to be held in Myrtle Beach, SC, in a few weeks.
I will be thinking of you and your 1689 London Baptist Confession, while I am there.


I wish Gideon could travel half way around the world to attend. I will be thinking of him, also.

Have a great time! If they ever have a meeting in the sunny South Pacific, I'll be there. :wave:
 
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BABerean2

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Please answer the question, which of the 10 Commandments can we, as Christians willing break?

I said I'd play...

I am willing to break the Sinai Covenant 4th, by believing the words of Paul in Colossians 2:16-17 where he makes it clear that the Sabbath day was merely a shadow of Christ.

I have traded a day of rest for Christ, who is my rest every day of the week.

Therefore, I am a breaker of the 4th, as understood by the ancient Israelites.

And for this, I should be stoned under the Sinai Covenant.

However, based on Hebrews 12:18-24, I am not come to the "obsolete" (Hebrews 8:13) covenant of Mount Sinai, but to the New Covenant of Mount Zion.

.
 
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JM

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I am willing to break the Sinai Covenant 4th, by believing the words of Paul in Colossians 2:16-17 where he makes it clear that the Sabbath day was merely a shadow of Christ.

I have traded a day of rest for Christ, who is my rest every day of the week.

Therefore, I am a breaker of the 4th, as understood by the ancient Israelites.

And for this, I should be stoned under the Sinai Covenant.

However, based on Hebrews 12:18-24, I am not come to the "obsolete" (Hebrews 8:13) covenant of Mount Sinai, but to the New Covenant of Mount Zion.

.

That's a very legalistic view of the Sabbath command, one according to the Mosaic Covenant of works, and not according to Hebrews 4.

The antinomian and the legalist are opposite sides of the same coin - both are extremists.
 
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BABerean2

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That's a very legalistic view of the Sabbath command, one according to the Mosaic Covenant of works, and not according to Hebrews 4.

The antinomian and the legalist are opposite sides of the same coin - both are extremists.

You asked which of the 10 commandments it would be OK to break and now you do not like the answer.

Colossians 2:16-17 makes it clear that the Sabbath day was merely a shadow of Christ.
Paul never commanded any Gentile church to keep a Sabbath day.
The 4th commandment is the "sign" of the Sinai covenant.
Since the New Covenant has made the Sinai covenant "obsolete" (Hebrews 8:13), I am not bound to keep the sign of that covenant.


I have never promoted "antinomianism", and you know it.

Joh 15:10  If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. 


Some of us cannot let go of Mount Sinai and embrace the New Covenant instead.
Legalism is forcing the text of scripture to fit a man-made confession of faith, which was written about 1600 years after the New Testament.


Heb 12:18  For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, 


Heb 12:19  and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. 



Heb 12:20  (For they could not endure what was commanded: "AND IF SO MUCH AS A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT SHALL BE STONED OR SHOT WITH AN ARROW." 



Heb 12:21  And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I AM EXCEEDINGLY AFRAID AND TREMBLING.") 



Heb 12:22  But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 


Heb 12:23  to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 

Heb 12:24  to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. 

.
 
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JM

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an·ti·no·mi·an
ˌan(t)ēˈnōmēən/
adjective
adjective: antinomian
  1. 1.
    relating to the view that Christians are released by grace from the obligation of observing the moral law.
noun
noun: antinomian; plural noun: antinomians
  1. 1.
    a person holding antinomian beliefs.
 
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BABerean2

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an·ti·no·mi·an
ˌan(t)ēˈnōmēən/
adjective
adjective: antinomian
  1. 1.
    relating to the view that Christians are released by grace from the obligation of observing the moral law.
noun
noun: antinomian; plural noun: antinomians
  1. 1.
    a person holding antinomian beliefs.

Do you find the term "the moral law" in God's Word, or does it come from a manmade confession of faith?

.

There are two different sets of commandments in John 15:10.

1. a set of commandments found in Exodus 34:28.
2. a set of commandments found in 1 John 3:23.


1Jn 3:22  And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 
1Jn 3:23  And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 
1Jn 3:24  Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 



If I follow the commandments above in 1 John 3:23, am I "antinomian"?

.
 
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JM

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Do you find the term "the moral law" in God's Word, or does it come from a manmade confession of faith?


Do you find the term Bible in the Bible? What kind of argument is that. When discussing theology we use theological terms as short forms to explain and express ideas. You are just trying to ignore the fact that you're antinomian - against the Law of God.

You deny the very same Law Christ died for fulfill in the place of sinners.
 
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BABerean2

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Do you find the term Bible in the Bible? What kind of argument is that. When discussing theology we use theological terms as short forms to explain and express ideas. You are just trying to ignore the fact that you're antinomian - against the Law of God.

You deny the very same Law Christ died for fulfill in the place of sinners.

Your argument is with Paul instead of me.
You have taken on the role of the Judaisers in Acts chapter 15, and the Book of Galatians and the Book of Hebrews.

You have not cast out "the bondwoman" found at the end of Galatians chapter 4.

I posted the Law of Christ found in 1 John chapter 3, and yet you claim that I am "antinomian".

You are stuck on the mountain that burned with fire.


Heb 12:18  For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, 
Heb 12:19  and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. 
Heb 12:20  (For they could not endure what was commanded: "AND IF SO MUCH AS A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT SHALL BE STONED OR SHOT WITH AN ARROW." 
Heb 12:21  And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I AM EXCEEDINGLY AFRAID AND TREMBLING.") 

Heb 12:22  But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 
Heb 12:23  to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 
Heb 12:24  to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. 

No person has ever gained salvation by keeping either the 10 commandments or the commandments of Christ.

Anyone who claims to keep either of them perfectly, is found in the verse below.

1Jn_4:20  If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?

Therefore, it is best not to call any of the Brethren an "antinomian", unless you can prove you keep either set of commandments, perfectly...

Otherwise ,you would be merely a hypocrite found below.

Luk_6:42  Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.

Run the "1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith" through the text above and see how it measures up to Sola Sciptura...

.
 
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JM

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It just gets better and better...

Your argument is with Paul instead of me.

Your argument is with Jesus instead of me.

Heb 12:22  But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 
Heb 12:23  to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 
Heb 12:24  to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. 

The Law quoted in Hebrews 8...which Law was that again? Oh yeah, it was the Law mentioned in Jer. 31 and is stated as a promise, directly related to the moral Law. Hehe.

No person has ever gained salvation by keeping either the 10 commandments or the commandments of Christ.


This doesn't even makes sense. No one is claiming that you can be saved by keeping the Mosaic Law - in fact I've said the opposite and quoted the 1689!

straw man
ˌstrô ˈman/
noun
noun: strawman
  1. 1.
    an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.
    "her familiar procedure of creating a straw man by exaggerating their approach"
  2. 2.
    a person regarded as having no substance or integrity.
    "a photogenic straw man gets inserted into office and advisers dictate policy"

Therefore, it is best not to call any of the Brethren an "antinomian", unless you can prove you keep either set of commandments, perfectly...

52345576.jpg


Therefore nothing. Your point doesn't even make sense in the context of what I've posted.

Your argument is, "I can't keep the moral Law perfectly so don't even bother...you don't need to act morally, forgetaaboutit" That's a dumb argument.


Run the "1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith" through the text above and see how it measures up to Sola Sciptura...

What I have quoted once already and BA seems to ignore.

"believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, in that as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts, and lives, so as examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against, sin; together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ and the perfection of his obedience; it is likewise of use to the regenerate to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to shew what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse and unallayed rigour thereof. The promises of it likewise shew them God's approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, though not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works; so as man's doing good and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law and not under grace."

BA just can't help misrepresenting the Reformed position, I guess it's easier than dealing with the facts...
 
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BABerean2

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The Law quoted in Hebrews 8...which Law was that again? Oh yeah, it was the Law mentioned in Jer. 31 and is stated as a promise, directly related to the moral Law. Hehe.

Did you read Jeremiah chapter 31?

Jer 31:31  "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 
Jer 31:32  not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 


You refuse to acknowledge that there are two different sets of commandments in the verse below.

Joh 15:10  If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. 


John heard this straight from Jesus and recorded it in the Gospel of John.
He is the same man who wrote 1 John.


1Jn 3:22  And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 

1Jn 3:23  And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 


1Jn 3:24  Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.




All false systems of interpretation are not revealed by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but rather by the scripture they must ignore to make the doctrine work.

The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith is no exception.
It contains much truth.
However, its attempt to turn the Sinai covenant into the New Covenant of Christ is an error.


. 

 
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Big Drew

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I watched the videos in the OP...and while I believe the pastor made some valid points, my biggest hang up was that there was so much, "We're not this, we're not that. They think this, they think that." But there was much less explanation as to what NCT actually teaches...I don't know...seemed interesting at first, but just didn't seem to be a lot of substance behind it.

I gave up on dispensationalism years ago when I realized there wasn't a solid biblical basis for the pre-trib rapture...I've looked at covenant theology, but I don't fit there either, though I'm closer to it than dispensationalism, I believe...maybe one day I'll figure it out...
 
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BABerean2

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I watched the videos in the OP...and while I believe the pastor made some valid points, my biggest hang up was that there was so much, "We're not this, we're not that. They think this, they think that." But there was much less explanation as to what NCT actually teaches...I don't know...seemed interesting at first, but just didn't seem to be a lot of substance behind it.

I gave up on dispensationalism years ago when I realized there wasn't a solid biblical basis for the pre-trib rapture...I've looked at covenant theology, but I don't fit there either, though I'm closer to it than dispensationalism, I believe...maybe one day I'll figure it out...

I was in exactly the same place that you are, just a few years ago.

When I could not get modern Dispensational Theology to line up with my Bible, one of my fellow deacons told me that the only other choice was Reformed Covenant Theology. Like you, I could not get that to work either.

Then I read the book "Abraham's Four Seeds" by Pastor John Reisinger. That book reveals the problem in both systems and points the way toward the New Covenant.

The New Covenant makes the whole Bible a book about Christ.
If you want to understand the New Covenant, look for the seed promise.
In other words look for the promised Seed, who is Christ, based on Galatians 3:16.


The Seed Promise…

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.


2Sa 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
2Sa 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.


Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:


Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Matthew 1:1 The Book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.


Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament (covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.




Try to throw out everything that men have said and let the Bible be your guide.

If you will talk with me in a private conversation here, I will give you something which will help you understand the New Covenant.

.
 
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JM

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I watched the videos in the OP...and while I believe the pastor made some valid points, my biggest hang up was that there was so much, "We're not this, we're not that. They think this, they think that." But there was much less explanation as to what NCT actually teaches...I don't know...seemed interesting at first, but just didn't seem to be a lot of substance behind it.

I gave up on dispensationalism years ago when I realized there wasn't a solid biblical basis for the pre-trib rapture...I've looked at covenant theology, but I don't fit there either, though I'm closer to it than dispensationalism, I believe...maybe one day I'll figure it out...

NCT is just another variation of Dispensationalism. It's a step toward covenant theology, a big step and will eventually come around. In the meantime we have to put up with welling meaning brothers and sisters in Christ yelling at us in caps and rainbow colours. lol

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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Big Drew

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NCT is just another variation of Dispensationalism. It's a step toward covenant theology, a big step and will eventually come around. In the meantime we have to put up with welling meaning brothers and sisters in Christ yelling at us in caps and rainbow colours. lol

Yours in the Lord,

jm
I watched the video you posted as well on Federalism...one of my biggest issues with Covenant Theology is it's explanation of the covenant of grace and how it starts in the OT and is just approached in different ways...or however that's worded. I like that Federalism seems to distinguish between the various covenants in the Bible. In this regard I've always agreed with dispensationalism about the different dispensations or covenants...my disagreement has been in regards to eschatology and their view of natural Israel and the Church being separate chosen ones of God...Israel as a nation was never saved simply because of their race or nationality, that's unfounded in scripture. I feel as if the founders of dispensationalism viewed covenant theology as replacement theology, and they just couldn't accept the fact that God's covenant with Israel was null and void. But the truth of the matter is that it's not replacement but addition. With the New Covenant God opened the door to the Gentiles...and the door remained opened to the Jews, it never closed...just got wider...lol
 
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BABerean2

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NCT is just another variation of Dispensationalism. It's a step toward covenant theology, a big step and will eventually come around. In the meantime we have to put up with welling meaning brothers and sisters in Christ yelling at us in caps and rainbow colours. lol

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Some of us traded Dispensational Theology for a man made confession, which denies the temporary nature of the Sinai Covenant described by Paul in Galatians 3:16-29.
 
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JM

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I watched the video you posted as well on Federalism...one of my biggest issues with Covenant Theology is it's explanation of the covenant of grace and how it starts in the OT and is just approached in different ways...or however that's worded.

Baptist Federalism states the promise is made before the giving of the Mosaic covenant and that all who are saved are saved by that covenant. It's all grace. What NCT does is view each covenant like a Dispensationalist would, limiting the work of salvation into different dispensations of time requiring many different things from God's people. That means God's law is arbitrary - the moral standard that Christ died to uphold and save us from is capricious, therefore laying the foundation for Universalism (each man judged according to a different law) and antinomianism (rejection of a universal law).

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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