Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
You shifted the theme though, from satisfaction of a penalty to a victory over death. Yeah, the victory may be complete, but Jesus remains for us the crucified God (the resurrection does not un-crucify him), and I think that's what the Catholics are emphasizing.
I don't think I did switch the theme, but rather just used other language that Christians use to describe the importance of the crucifixion. And as for the second point, I don't really think there is a difference between the Catholic and the Protestant views--if I am to go by the way you worded your point there. In some other ways, there probably is one, but Christ of course remains the crucified God in Protestant thinking also.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,477
18,456
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,462.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
Catholics simply do not believe that Jesus is sacrificed over and over again. The Mass is the same sacrifice represented sacramentally. As a Lutheran, I don't have alot of problems with that understanding, though I know there are scholastic distinctions possible between just what part of the human work is a sacrifice and what part is a sacrament.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Catholics simply do not believe that Jesus is sacrificed over and over again. The Mass is the same sacrifice represented sacramentally. As a Lutheran, I don't have alot of problems with that understanding, though I know there are scholastic distinctions possible between just what part of the human work is a sacrifice and what part is a sacrament.

Was the above intended to be a reply to "throughfierytrial" or "JesusLovesOurLady?"
 
Upvote 0

DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih
Supporter
May 15, 2008
9,486
3,322
✟858,457.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The cross means that I will never have to suffer as a punishment for sins. All of my suffering, thanks to Jesus, is meant by God and used by God to refine my character and conform me to the image of Christ. Suffering is now sent into my life by God as an expression of his love rather than his wrath.

Suffering is, in part, a result of sin. But it is also actively sent into my life by God in order to awaken me to spiritual realities and goad me toward repentance. It is also used of God to burn away the dross of remaining sin in my life and purify me.

When suffering arises I attempt to thank God in the midst of it and to bear it with as much grace and obedience as I can. I attempt to use suffering as an opportunity to grow in grace which is readily available in times of suffering.

If you talk to a muslim about following Jesus what eventually comes up is this idea that we serve a God that endured suffering and died on the cross, something that to them seem counter-theistic, of course they miss the point but I digress. Catholics and Protestant alike use a common symbol of the cross to represent their faith, perhaps Catholics have higher value for the symbol of the crucifix than the cross alone but regardless of the representation of the cross the cross is still the common symbol. Some may call it a symbol that represents salvation or grace and although those things are true the cross proclaims a symbol of suffering.

Suffering and following Jesus are intertwined together and we affirm this with the symbol of the cross. I happen to value the cross as is and see it sufficient because it happens to be empty and as Jesus said himself "It is finished" but it is still unmistakably a symbol of suffering regardless the perspective you come at it. After all let's call a spade a spade here the cross is about suffering of Christ and it is not about the cross itself or the thief to the left or right; it is to Jesus we look to like the Israelites looked to the snake on the pole so I do understand the value of the crucifix.

Suffering of course can become an idol in itself. Suffering is a part of the world we live in that is plagued by sin and we need to be careful we do not exalt it to levels God does not desire. We value it because Jesus died on the cross and enured suffering. We value it because the disciples valued it even saying to "consider it pure joy" However I think it is irresponsible for us to consider obedience the result of suffering in itself and I say that hesitantly because I know Jesus's obedience ultimately was suffering. Everything we do should bring glory to God and if our suffering cannot bring glory to God then it has the wrong focus.

Protestants should not have a problem agreeing on this but I do understand the void in how it is valued. Sometimes the things we know as "head knowledge" is different than the things we value or as "heart knowledge" There is an amazing example of reconciliation through penance in the Movie "The Mission" A headhunter (Robert DeNiro) goes through an exhausting penance only to be freed by the people he once hunted. The result is an intimate baptism of reconciliation then joy from that suffering. I am haunted by this privilege of such a moment and desire, even perhaps at times seek, such an experience for myself.
But these experiences cannot be fabricated otherwise the entire meaning is lost. It's like your car breaks down in the middle of nowhere and you have to walk for a day to get help. That's a good story and is worthy of repeating. But if it was you pulled your car over and pretended it was broken down, walk for a day to seek help you didn't even need.. that's just being stupid. Don't seek the suffering just seek Jesus and he will lead you there.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,477
18,456
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,462.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
Who were you responding to in that post???

You seem to be suggesting there's a big difference between what magisterial Protestants believe and what the Catholics believe, regarding the nature of Christ's sacrifice. Yet we all believe there is something eternal about the Cross, that it can be represented in a sacrament. If it was just something that happened in the past that we can only remember now, things would be different.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
You seem to be suggesting there's a big difference between what magisterial Protestants believe and what the Catholics believe, regarding the nature of Christ's sacrifice.
I said that there is a difference. Here is the statement that most directly explains what I intended:

They all emphasize both (i.e. Crucifixion and Resurrection), and no church discounts the importance of either event. But it could be argued that Protestants place a bit more emphasis upon the crucifixion than do Catholics for the reason that Salvation by Faith (a key principle of the Protestant Reformation) is linked to the atoning quality of Christ's sacrifice in particular.
 
Upvote 0

JESUS=G.O.A.T

Well-Known Member
Dec 29, 2016
2,681
659
26
Houston
✟60,941.00
Country
United States
Faith
Apostolic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I am not a catholic. I have never read or been taught that Jesus was crucified and suffered so that we can avoid suffering. Quite the contrary, I have been taught becoming a Christian would attract more suffering rather than less. Jesus suffered on the cross to pay for our sins not to spare us from suffering.


Oh I see well in protestant/other churches you're taught that he died on the cross so we wouldn't face a punishment for the sin we were set in and to pay for our sins and provide us a way to salvation.

But yeah I was never taught we avoid suffering on Earth, just that we have a way to avoid eternal suffering or damnation which we would have suffered if it wasn't for him.
 
Upvote 0

Thursday

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
6,034
1,562
59
Texas
✟49,429.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Jesus paid a price for our redemption; also Jesus shed His blood for the remission of sons; the price that we who are saved do not have to pay is the second death; the covenant determines who is saved.

I cannot speak for all Protestants but as I understand the issue the complaint of the Presbyterians is the RCC crucifies Christ daily or at each mass while they claim Christ was crucified once for all time and for all purposes; they see the error of the RCC as similar to the Jews who continued to kill sheep; they had failed to acknowledge or understand what Christ had done. The RCC see the merit in the sacrificing and the Protestants see the merit in the price paid.

Christ is not crucified at mass. At mass we enter in to the once and for all sacrifice of Christ. God is outside of time and his actions are ever present.
 
Upvote 0

Leevo

Well-Known Member
Feb 18, 2015
773
284
28
Tennessee
✟28,954.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
My point is that the scriptures are quite clear that we are expected to suffer for Christ.

Do you disagree?

I don't disagree necessarily but my point in my op was that we do not need to suffer to pay for our sins. Christ did that on the cross. Which is the point of the phrase "Jesus suffered so we don't have to"
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Thursday

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
6,034
1,562
59
Texas
✟49,429.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I don't disagree necessarily but my point in my op was that we do not need to suffer to pay for our sins. Christ did that on the cross. Which is the point of the phrase "Jesus suffered so we don't have to"

Christ made it possible for our sins to be forgiven. Nowhere in the gospel does it say that we don't have to suffer for our sins.
 
Upvote 0

Leevo

Well-Known Member
Feb 18, 2015
773
284
28
Tennessee
✟28,954.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Christ made it possible for our sins to be forgiven. Nowhere in the gospel does it say that we don't have to suffer for our sins.

We suffer on earth still as a result of sin. The gospel is that Christ paid the price for our sins so we don't have to pay for them.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Tigger45
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,477
18,456
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,462.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
On this subject, there is a lot of continuity between Luther and medieval Catholicism.

I know from reading about Luther's background, his spirituality and theology was heavily shaped by German mysticism that came out of Meister Eckhart and other Dominicans. The Rhineland Mystics and the Friends of God formed a sort of "church within a church" for laity and clergy that wanted a more personalized spirituality. In fact you could consider Lutheran spirituality a "Reader's Digest" version of German medieval mysticism. In this sense, Luther was a religious genius at synthesizing this tradition to make it easily apprehended by laity, making holiness accessible to everyone.

Calvinist views of the atonement, on the other hand, are far more juridical, owing to the metaphysical agnosticism of the tradition. It's less focused on the subjective appropriation of the great exchange between man and God that happens at the Cross, and more focused on an objective resolution of a certain medieval view of justice and mercy through punishment of a "perfect law keeper" (something the Lutheran tradition doesn't emphasize to the same degree).
 
Upvote 0

throughfiierytrial

Truth-Lover
Supporter
Apr 7, 2014
2,836
794
✟516,876.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Christ made it possible for our sins to be forgiven. Nowhere in the gospel does it say that we don't have to suffer for our sins.
Suffering is both a natural consequence of sin as well as at times is inflicted on us as punishment as seen clearly esp. in James 5:13-15:
Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven.

This is not in payment for our eternity, but we do suffer because of our sin.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Tigger45
Upvote 0

throughfiierytrial

Truth-Lover
Supporter
Apr 7, 2014
2,836
794
✟516,876.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Christ is not crucified at mass. At mass we enter in to the once and for all sacrifice of Christ. God is outside of time and his actions are ever present.
Christ is outside of time, I agree, however He allows us to live in time and the teachings He has given us are in our time, for our time. On the cross He said "It is finished." Therefore His suffering and death are finished and suffice for all time or you would be teaching and practicing against what Hebrews clearly lays out for us.
Hebrews 6:5:
To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to public disgrace.

Put positively:
Hebrews 7:27:
He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

Christianity is made easy for us, the children, that is to say believers, in that we are in time and are given a book...the precious Word of God...the Bible.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Thursday

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
6,034
1,562
59
Texas
✟49,429.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
We suffer on earth still as a result of sin. The gospel is that Christ paid the price for our sins so we don't have to pay for them.


If we don't repent and follow Jesus we will have to pay for our sins:
Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Matt 25
41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
 
Upvote 0

Thursday

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
6,034
1,562
59
Texas
✟49,429.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Christ is outside of time, I agree, however He allows us to live in time and the teachings He has given us are in our time, for our time. On the cross He said "It is finished." Therefore His suffering and death are finished and suffice for all time or you would be teaching and practicing against what Hebrews clearly lays out for us.
Hebrews 6:5:
To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to public disgrace.

Put positively:
Hebrews 7:27:
He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

Christianity is made easy for us, the children, that is to say believers, in that we are in time and are given a book...the precious Word of God...the Bible.

The sacrifice of Christ is once and for all. It is eternally present.

Christianity requires that we pick up our cross daily and follow Jesus.
 
Upvote 0

Leevo

Well-Known Member
Feb 18, 2015
773
284
28
Tennessee
✟28,954.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
If we don't repent and follow Jesus we will have to pay for our sins:
Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Matt 25
41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Well yeah. That is part of the gospel.
 
Upvote 0

Tangible

Decision Theology = Ex Opere Operato
May 29, 2009
9,837
1,416
cruce tectum
Visit site
✟59,743.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
The Cross is simply a symbol. It has been historically used in many forms by many cultures to mean many things. Christians have used it historically to symbolize the propitiation accomplished by the vicarious death of Christ - the perfect sacrifice of the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

It was Jesus' own disciples who first used the rhetorical image of the Cross to refer to the suffering and death of Our Lord as recorded in Holy Scripture, even if a physical representation of the Cross took a few centuries to manifest itself.

As is quite typical of Our God, he uses the horror of the Cross to communicate the beauty of the sacrifice of Our Lord on our behalf. The Cross is indeed an offense to our Old Man, who wants nothing more than to justify himself before God by his moralism, mysticism and rationalism.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums