NO MORE PREACHING ON HELL

dms1972 · Feb 21, 2017

2PhiloVoid said:
Hi dms1972,

I, too, am a Gen Xer, and there probably isn't a clear division line as to where social experts will continue to define the line, or maintain the age range between Baby Boomers, Gen Xers, Millenials, and the next generation. In general, if a person in the English speaking world is around 40 years of age or younger, then they're in a demographic sector that is finding it increasingly more difficult to identify with traditional religious (Christian) institutions and ideals. Of course, I'm sure you know this already.

I respect Dallas Willard's point of view, although I can't say for sure that the 'Bar cod faith' type of teaching definitely leads to a disjunction between faith and ordinary life, but it is something many younger people who are more oriented toward the "Information Age/Education" feel makes a huge difference in whether they can believe or not.

Probably, direct teaching about Hell isn't what is chasing the younger ages away, but their growing intolerance for what is perceived as "judgementalism" in the Church. And I can vouch for some of that; I have a family member who was the 'victim,' so to speak, of a Christian pastor who was neither a very insightful man, nor a helpful one, nor one who understood that "pushing" people toward the faith with guilt-trips wasn't a good way to help immature Christians grow.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

I have a book called Generating Hope by Jimmy Long, about reaching 'Gen Xers'. Not really sure about sociological analysis of these things. I would guess there are a variety of attitudes towards preaching on hell amongst members of each generation. Does anyone like hearing it?

A question to be considered is:

How should it be preached, and to whom?

Like Johnathan Edward's famous sermon? Although he preached that and I have heard that there was a revival in the congregation and surrounding area following. He don't think he preached like that every week. The congregation he had moved to had been largely unaffected by the Great Awakening he must if felt that sermon was appropriate on that occasion He done it out of concern.

On the other hand there are those who seemed to almost enjoy in preaching with vivid descriptions of the pains of hell (even describing infants being tormented). I read once Os Guinness telling of someone famous whom had attended church on Sunday, as a proud father, his wife having recently given birth to a son. The minister began to get into his sermon describing the pains of infants in hell, and this man stood up and shouted 'if that be your God, and that be your religion' I want none of it, and left and never returned. Very sad.

dms1972 · Feb 21, 2017

miknik5 · Feb 21, 2017

Original Happy Camper said:
All humans will be resurrected if they died some in the first and the remainder at the second resurrection, with the exception of Moses who was resurrected and taken to Heaven.

Some will be alive at HIS coming

LoveofTruth · Feb 21, 2017

John Hyperspace said:
Good riddance. It is a dispicable doctrine (I am meaning the commonly taught doctrine of an "eternal suffering 'hell'"). It has virtually no support in scripture; what miniscual "support" it does have is based on taking parables and symbolism literally, then applying a "never ending" which isn't in scripture at all; mixed with a heaping helping of terrible translation and even more terrible man-inspired backward ethical philosophy.

What I dislike most about it, is what it does to the character of God.

You are 100 percent wrong about hell and the torments of hell. The character of God is not harmed by hell and the lake of fire that he created for the devil and his angels. Gods character is absolutely holy and pure, and because he is so holy , all those who see His holiness will feel sinful in his presence, for they are fallen creatures, even the prophet said he was a man of unclean lips when he saw some of the glorious revelation of God.

here are just a few verses to consider

Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul andbody in hell."

Proverbs 9:18
"But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell."

2 Thessalonians 1:8
"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

Luke 16:23
"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

Revelation 20:13
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

Revelation 20:14
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

2 Peter 2:4
"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"

Revelation 19:20
"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

Revelation 20:10
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Revelation 20:15
"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

ronandcarol · Feb 21, 2017

Solomons Porch said:
Why has everything turned into a pretty package, tickle your ears service?? Why have we strayed away from this? The preacher used to pour out his heart to the congregation, pleading the case of Jesus to turn from the wickedness of this world for there is a heaven and there is a hell, choose today who you will serve, repent for the time is drawing near. What happened to this teaching and preaching, it seems it has all but vanished?

Because pastors of many churches today don't want to offend any of their congregation! they don't want to loose any one. They are trying to fill their pews by preaching the loving kind words. They are not doing people any good by not preaching the whole Bible.
ronandcarol

LoveofTruth · Feb 21, 2017

Original Happy Camper said:
Scripture to support this please

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" (Revelation 6:9,10 KJV)

Matthew 18:9
"And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire." (notice the eyes part)

Mark 9:43
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"(notice the hands part)

Luke 16:23
"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

Just to mention a very few

John Hyperspace · Feb 21, 2017

LoveofTruth said:
You are 100 percent wrong about hell and the torments of hell.

I'm going to have to disagree.

LoveofTruth said:
here are just a few verses to consider

Okay let's take a look.

LoveofTruth said:
Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul andbody in hell."

Okay that verse says "destroy"; so where are you getting "endless suffering"? You see how you're simply reading something into the passage that isn't there, then stating the contrapositive that you're "100% right" when your very first supporting verse does 100% nothing to support your doctrine?

LoveofTruth said:
Proverbs 9:18
"But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell."

Okay, and "hell" in this verse means, what? Endless suffering? You see now that the second verse to consider again has zero support for your doctrine? Did you know that Jesus went to hell? Acts 2:31

LoveofTruth said:
2 Thessalonians 1:8
"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

Okay, nothing in this verse about endless suffering. Three verses with zero support. Not good.

LoveofTruth said:
Luke 16:23
"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

Okay, nothing here about endless suffering.

LoveofTruth said:
Revelation 20:13
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death andhell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

Okay nothing here about endless suffering. In fact here we have hell releasing them therein, true?

LoveofTruth said:
Revelation 20:14
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Okay, here is nothing about endless suffering. Death, but no endless suffering. Oddly enough, here we see "hell" dying.

LoveofTruth said:
2 Peter 2:4
"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"

Okay, reserved unto judgment. Nothing here about endless suffering. And you're sure I'm 100% wrong, right? Even though you've cited verses that do not even begin to support "endless suffering": why do you cite verses which don't support your doctrine?

LoveofTruth said:
Revelation 19:20
"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

Okay nothing here about endless suffering. Bear in mind, I've already also stated that the doctrine comes mainly from people taking symbolism literally; and the book of Revelation is symbolism.

LoveofTruth said:
Revelation 20:10
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Ah, the one-and-only verse which can actually support "endless suffering". You're sure this one verse is being translated correctly? You're willing to build a potentially blasphemous doctrine on a single verse in apocalyptic literature with a debateable translation?

LoveofTruth said:
Revelation 20:15
"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Okay, cast into fire. Nothing about endless suffering. So out of all of those verse, only one actually supports your doctrine. A single passage in all of the scripture, and you're going to preach a doctrine based on one translation of one verse in apocalyptic literature which you're taking literally. A doctrine which, if untrue, is painting God as the creation's biggest monster, and ends with an eternity in which a small group of people are praising God, while God's ears ring for eternity with the majority of His creation cursing Him and His name for all of time. You don't for a second think about what you're teaching and conclude something seems very wrong with your doctrine?

stuart lawrence · Feb 21, 2017

The definition of hell that made most sense to me was when one minister stated:

Hell is the place where Gods presence does not exist.

Think of a world without Gods presence in it

JESUS=G.O.A.T · Feb 21, 2017

John Hyperspace said:
I'm going to have to disagree.

Okay let's take a look.

Okay that verse says "destroy"; so where are you getting "endless suffering"? You see how you're simply reading something into the passage that isn't there, then stating the contrapositive that you're "100% right" when your very first supporting verse does 100% nothing to support your doctrine?

Okay, and "hell" in this verse means, what? Endless suffering? You see now that the second verse to consider again has zero support for your doctrine?

Okay, nothing in this verse about endless suffering. Three verses with zero support. Not good.

Okay, nothing here about endless suffering.

You're right about one thing...hell isn't everlasting.

Revelation 20:14 - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

But the lake of fire (where souls from hell will be relocated to) is.

Matthew 25:46

“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

King James Version (KJV)

Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:15 - And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Comment: As we see in the first and 2nd verse the lake of fire last forever and as we see in the 2nd and 3rd one...people who sin are doomed for this same lake of fire.

Also logically though if there is eternal life....then people who don't have eternal life die forever right? I mean..

LoveofTruth · Feb 21, 2017

John Hyperspace said:
I'm going to have to disagree.

Okay let's take a look.

Okay that verse says "destroy"; so where are you getting "endless suffering"? You see how you're simply reading something into the passage that isn't there, then stating the contrapositive that you're "100% right" when your very first supporting verse does 100% nothing to support your doctrine?

Okay, and "hell" in this verse means, what? Endless suffering? You see now that the second verse to consider again has zero support for your doctrine? Did you know that Jesus went to hell? Acts 2:31

Okay, nothing in this verse about endless suffering. Three verses with zero support. Not good.

Okay, nothing here about endless suffering.

Okay nothing here about endless suffering. In fact here we have hell releasing them therein, true?

Okay, here is nothing about endless suffering. Death, but no endless suffering. Oddly enough, here we see "hell" dying.

Okay, reserved unto judgment. Nothing here about endless suffering. And you're sure I'm 100% wrong, right? Even though you've cited verses that do not even begin to support "endless suffering": why do you cite verses which don't support your doctrine?

Okay nothing here about endless suffering. Bear in mind, I've already also stated that the doctrine comes mainly from people taking symbolism literally; and the book of Revelation is symbolism.

Ah, the one-and-only verse which can actually support "endless suffering". You're sure this one verse is being translated correctly? You're willing to build a potentially blasphemous doctrine on a single verse in apocalyptic literature with a debateable translation?

Okay, cast into fire. Nothing about endless suffering. So out of all of those verse, only one actually supports your doctrine. A single passage in all of the scripture, and you're going to preach a doctrine based on one translation of one verse in apocalyptic literature which you're taking literally. A doctrine which, if untrue, is painting God as the creation's biggest monster, and ends with an eternity in which a small group of people are praising God, while God's ears ring for eternity with the majority of His creation cursing Him and His name for all of time. You don't for a second think about what you're teaching and conclude something seems very wrong with your doctrine?

Mark 9:43
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"

Never be quenched sounds like forever and ever non ending, and in there there will be wailing and nashing of teeth

the fire never quenched will extend into the lake of fire as well forever

stuart lawrence · Feb 21, 2017

And if hell should be viewed as a place where Gods presence does not exist:

Outside (of the city, the new Jerusalem) are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolators and everyone who loves and practices falsehood
Rev 22:15

A spiritual lake of fire/ torment, where the worm never dies?

John Hyperspace · Feb 21, 2017

LoveofTruth said:
Mark 9:43
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"

Never be quenched sounds like forever and ever non ending, and in there there will be wailing and noshing of teeth

Well the verse says that the fire doesn't ever go out; it doesn't say anything about people staying in the fire forever. Look at Jude 1:7 and it teaches that Sodom was destroyed by "unquenchable fire" but Sodom isn't still being burned to this very day. So, again, no real support of "endless suffering": there is only one verse in scripture (the Revelation verse about "tormented day and night forever and ever") that will support "endless suffering": it's strange that such a doctrine as "endless suffering" only has one supporting verse. You would think such a terrible truth would be clearly taught in scripture, instead of one time, in a highly symbolic book being taken literally and questionably translated.

LoveofTruth · Feb 21, 2017

John Hyperspace said:
Well the verse says that the fire doesn't ever go out; it doesn't say anything about people staying in the fire forever. Look at Jude 1:7 and it teaches that Sodom was destroyed by "unquenchable fire" but Sodom isn't still being burned to this very day. So, again, no real support of "endless suffering": there is only one verse in scripture (the Revelation verse about "tormented day and night forever and ever") that will support "endless suffering": it's strange that such a doctrine as "endless suffering" only has one supporting verse. You would think such a terrible truth would be clearly taught in scripture, instead of one time, in a highly symbolic book being taken literally and questionably translated.

the spirit of a man and soul are eternal, either way they will be with God forever and ever eternal life, or separated from God forever and ever eternal damnation.

Why do you suppose God created the lake of fire for the devil and his angels?

Because they are eternal beings and cannot cease to exist.But they will be tormented day and night forever and every in the lake of fire and all those with them that rejected Christ.

LoveofTruth · Feb 21, 2017

John Hyperspace said:
Well the verse says that the fire doesn't ever go out; it doesn't say anything about people staying in the fire forever. Look at Jude 1:7 and it teaches that Sodom was destroyed by "unquenchable fire" but Sodom isn't still being burned to this very day. So, again, no real support of "endless suffering": there is only one verse in scripture (the Revelation verse about "tormented day and night forever and ever") that will support "endless suffering": it's strange that such a doctrine as "endless suffering" only has one supporting verse. You would think such a terrible truth would be clearly taught in scripture, instead of one time, in a highly symbolic book being taken literally and questionably translated.

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal."—Matt. 25:46.

LoveofTruth · Feb 21, 2017

John Hyperspace said:
Well the verse says that the fire doesn't ever go out; it doesn't say anything about people staying in the fire forever. Look at Jude 1:7 and it teaches that Sodom was destroyed by "unquenchable fire" but Sodom isn't still being burned to this very day. So, again, no real support of "endless suffering": there is only one verse in scripture (the Revelation verse about "tormented day and night forever and ever") that will support "endless suffering": it's strange that such a doctrine as "endless suffering" only has one supporting verse. You would think such a terrible truth would be clearly taught in scripture, instead of one time, in a highly symbolic book being taken literally and questionably translated.

Just a few more

Rev 14:10-11 he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Mt 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Jude 13: "for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever" "outer Darkness" Lk 13:27

2 Th 1:9 And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord

John Hyperspace · Feb 21, 2017

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:
Matthew 25:46

“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

I'd propose that the word "aion" (which is being translated as "everlasting" in that verse; and every other) being translated as "everlasting" instead of "age-long" is highly suspect. Many translation do not translate that as "everlasting"; and it's a highly debateable translation, thus creating a highly questionable supporting verse. So, do you really want to teach a potentially highly blasphemous doctrine based on highly questionable translated words? It seems the wise thing to do would be to avoid teaching the doctrine at all.

Also, even if we translated "aeon" as "everlasting" the verse you cite doesn't support "endless suffering" since death itself would be an everlasting punishment. Annihilation is an everlasting punishment. Being barred from the temple would be an everlasting punishment. Being busted from general down to private would be an everlasting punishment; so the phrase doesn't support endless suffering.

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:
King James Version (KJV)

Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:15 - And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

You see how you keep going to a highly symbolic book, and then taking the verses literally, then teaching a doctrine which paints God as creation's biggest mass-torturer ever? You don't for a second stop and think maybe something is going wrong in the understanding? Being cast into fire doesn't support "endless suffering" anymore than citing a verse where believers are "tried by fire" supports "endless trial"

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:
Also logically though if there is eternal life....then people who don't have eternal life die forever right? I mean..

Okay, are you teaching annihilation here, or, endless suffering? Because I've already proposed the former should be the doctrine of choice for fear-mongers. It seems somewhat blasphemous, but does not reach the depths of the potential blasphemy of "endless suffering": also bear in mind by "blasphemy" I'm meaning the actual meaning of the word "to injure the name/fame/reputation" and if God does not "endlessly torment" people, then the doctrine teaching that He does would indeed be probably the most blasphemous doctrine there is: much like teaching others that your loving neighbor tortures people in his cellar, would be highly injuring your neighbor's good reputation.

LoveofTruth · Feb 21, 2017

John Hyperspace said:
Well the verse says that the fire doesn't ever go out; it doesn't say anything about people staying in the fire forever. Look at Jude 1:7 and it teaches that Sodom was destroyed by "unquenchable fire" but Sodom isn't still being burned to this very day. So, again, no real support of "endless suffering": there is only one verse in scripture (the Revelation verse about "tormented day and night forever and ever") that will support "endless suffering": it's strange that such a doctrine as "endless suffering" only has one supporting verse. You would think such a terrible truth would be clearly taught in scripture, instead of one time, in a highly symbolic book being taken literally and questionably translated.

a few more

Matthew 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy (apollumi) both soul and body in hell."

The Greek word here does not mean annihilation, but a continuation of existence in a lost state or ruined state.

Mark 2:22 "And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost (apollumi), and the skins as well; but one puts new wine into fresh wineskins."

Matt 9:17: "the wine pours out (apollumi)"

The wine, didn't cease to exist, it was simply spilt on the ground

"Things seen are temporary, but things not seen are eternal": 2 Cor 4:18

LoveofTruth · Feb 21, 2017

- "Things seen are temporary, but things not seen are eternal": 2 Cor 4:18

John Hyperspace · Feb 21, 2017

LoveofTruth said:
Mt 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

I talked about this verse above. Death is a punishment which would be forever. Many things can be an eternal punishment (eternal torture as well) but this doesn't support any specific punishment, let alone endless torture.

LoveofTruth said:
Jude 13: "for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever" "outer Darkness" Lk 13:27

13 Wild waves of sea, foaming out their own infamies, wandering stars, for whom the gloom of darkness age–abiding hath been reserved.
13 wild waves of a sea, foaming out their own shames; stars going astray, to whom the gloom of the darkness to the age hath been kept.

Now, is it darkness, or, is it fire? Because light comes from fire, true? Are you sure you're supposed to be taking these things literally? So sure you're willing to potentially blaspheme God if you're not supposed to be taking these things literally? But again, I would note there is no support at all for "endless suffering" in this verse at all. Being in darkness doesn't hurt at all.

LoveofTruth said:
2 Th 1:9 And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord

Okay this verse says "eternal destruction" which not only doesn't support "endless suffering" it contradicts it. So now you're citing passages which contradict your doctrine. Are you actually putting thought into this, or, just cutting and pasting someone else's "work"?

JESUS=G.O.A.T · Feb 21, 2017

John Hyperspace said:
Well the verse says that the fire doesn't ever go out; it doesn't say anything about people staying in the fire forever. Look at Jude 1:7 and it teaches that Sodom was destroyed by "unquenchable fire" but Sodom isn't still being burned to this very day. So, again, no real support of "endless suffering": there is only one verse in scripture (the Revelation verse about "tormented day and night forever and ever") that will support "endless suffering": it's strange that such a doctrine as "endless suffering" only has one supporting verse. You would think such a terrible truth would be clearly taught in scripture, instead of one time, in a highly symbolic book being taken literally and questionably translated.

John Hyperspace said:
I'd propose that the word "aion" (which is being translated as "everlasting" in that verse; and every other) being translated as "everlasting" instead of "age-long" is highly suspect. Many translation do not translate that as "everlasting"; and it's a highly debateable translation, thus creating a highly questionable supporting verse. So, do you really want to teach a potentially highly blasphemous doctrine based on highly questionable translated words? It seems the wise thing to do would be to avoid teaching the doctrine at all.

Also, even if we translated "aeon" as "everlasting" the verse you cite doesn't support "endless suffering" since death itself would be an everlasting punishment. Annihilation is an everlasting punishment. Being barred from the temple would be an everlasting punishment. Being busted from general down to private would be an everlasting punishment; so the phrase doesn't support endless suffering.

You see how you keep going to a highly symbolic book, and then taking the verses literally, then teaching a doctrine which paints God as creation's biggest mass-torturer ever? You don't for a second stop and think maybe something is going wrong in the understanding? Being cast into fire doesn't support "endless suffering" anymore than citing a verse where believers are "tried by fire" supports "endless trial"

Okay, are you teaching annihilation here, or, endless suffering? Because I've already proposed the former should be the doctrine of choice for fear-mongers. It seems somewhat blasphemous, but does not reach the depths of the potential blasphemy of "endless suffering": also bear in mind by "blasphemy" I'm meaning the actual meaning of the word "to injure the name/fame/reputation" and if God does not "endlessly torment" people, then the doctrine teaching that He does would indeed be probably the most blasphemous doctrine there is: much like teaching others that your loving neighbor tortures people in his cellar, would be highly injuring your neighbor's good reputation.

Death in spirit is everlasting punishment. The bible says walk in the spirit and it speaks how your reward is eternal life and then it always provides a response such as for example, if ye live after the flesh ye shall die. The lake of fire=2nd death even though it last forever. I'm also not sure about your point that death itself is an everlasting punishment, if you believe in death the worldly way then you simply die and it's lights out...that's not a punishment. You're essentially nothing again like before we were manifested on Earth.

You see how you keep going to a highly symbolic book, and then taking the verses literally, then teaching a doctrine which paints God as creation's biggest mass-torturer ever? You don't for a second stop and think maybe something is going wrong in the understanding? Being cast into fire doesn't support "endless suffering" anymore than citing a verse where believers are "tried by fire" supports "endless trial"

My Response: Woah woah hold up here, you should be careful here and examine how you read your word. If you are making the suggestion that a bible shouldn't be taken literally along with the suggestion that certain words can't be trusted becuase of translations or whatever then you're sort of suggesting the bible isn't a book worth considering. The bible says man shall live by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God, it doesn't say the bible is to be taken in context, but rather straight up as it is.

And sure you're right... being cast into a fire alone does not support endless suffering which is why I underlined the part that states tormented ever and ever.

Additionally you're analogy was a poor one at best, tried by fire doesn't even have the words ever, forever in the text, and also tribulations in the bible are clearly described as areas for christians to grow and best tested, "We glory in tribulations knowing tribulation works patience, patience experience, and experience hope". . Hell/the lake of fire are never described in such a context as being an extremely tough location for a believer to work on being steadfast with God. It is described as a place for unbelievers. A place where you don't want to go and shouldn't go and can avoid experiencing at all, and never described as a place you can escape. But situations we will experience and can overcome even if they are our fault, God can pull us out.

Okay, are you teaching annihilation here, or, endless suffering? Because I've already proposed the former should be the doctrine of choice for fear-mongers. It seems somewhat blasphemous, but does not reach the depths of the potential blasphemy of "endless suffering": also bear in mind by "blasphemy" I'm meaning the actual meaning of the word "to injure the name/fame/reputation"

Response: Endless suffering.

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