Does your denomination preach Christ-crucified?

enigmadi · Feb 21, 2017

JesusLovesOurLady said:
Yes I've heard one Protestant say this in the context of an argument against purgatory,
But I've heard many Protestants say this, and as far as I can remember the context was, or at the very least seemed to be in the context of suffering in general. It could be that they just weren't clear when they were talking about suffering.
However my arguments about Protestantism's lack of emphasis on the crucifixion and the problems that cause still stands.

Gosh....I am a non-denominational Christian and Christ's crucifixion AND resurrection is at the center of my faith. Christ died for all sinners who accept Him as savior and King. Believers still suffer due to original sin but we are encouraged by the promise that God is always with us. I'm not sure which
denomination you speak of since Christ's crucifixion and, more importantly, His resurrection are central to what we believe.

BeStill&Know · Feb 21, 2017

JesusLovesOurLady said:
Hello, I'm a Catholic (As my username implies) and I thought like to discuss my biggest issue with Protestantism, it's the phrase "Jesus suffered and died on the cross so that we don't have to suffer."
But Our Lord said:
"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." -Matthew 16:24 DRV

What's more Saint Paul says:
"Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church" -Colossians 1:24 DRV
And:
"I BESEECH you therefore, brethren, by the mercy of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing unto God, your reasonable service." -Romans 12:1 DRV This refers specifically to redemptive (AKA "Offering it up") in which we unite our own little sufferings with Christ's sacrifice on the Cross, that He may mediate between The Father and us.

We Catholics, except for people who reached a really high degree of holiness, do not actively seek suffering, but when it arises, we take it as an opportunity to unite with Our Lord on the cross. The belief that "Christ suffered so that we don't have to," quite frankly means that Protestants don't preach Christ crucified as Saint Paul commands us to, The Lord's sacrifice on the cross becomes just something that happened almost 2000 years ago, not something that one's entire life revolves around.

So tell me Protestants how is the cross relevant for you? And how do you sense out of suffering? What do you do when suffering arises?

all the time.

marineimaging · Feb 21, 2017

I am Baptist and our teaching that Jesus died for us so we don't have to suffer only has to do with worldly suffering in the sense of the rapture. We don't have to undergo the tribulation which will be so bad.., people do not grasp the degree of suffering non believers will go through. But it also means that Jesus died and a substitute for us so the suffering we don't go through is the lake of fire, eternal hell.

sparow · Feb 21, 2017

JesusLovesOurLady said:
Hello, I'm a Catholic (As my username implies) and I thought like to discuss my biggest issue with Protestantism, it's the phrase "Jesus suffered and died on the cross so that we don't have to suffer."
But Our Lord said:
"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." -Matthew 16:24 DRV

What's more Saint Paul says:
"Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church" -Colossians 1:24 DRV
And:
"I BESEECH you therefore, brethren, by the mercy of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing unto God, your reasonable service." -Romans 12:1 DRV This refers specifically to redemptive (AKA "Offering it up") in which we unite our own little sufferings with Christ's sacrifice on the Cross, that He may mediate between The Father and us.

We Catholics, except for people who reached a really high degree of holiness, do not actively seek suffering, but when it arises, we take it as an opportunity to unite with Our Lord on the cross. The belief that "Christ suffered so that we don't have to," quite frankly means that Protestants don't preach Christ crucified as Saint Paul commands us to, The Lord's sacrifice on the cross becomes just something that happened almost 2000 years ago, not something that one's entire life revolves around.

So tell me Protestants how is the cross relevant for you? And how do you sense out of suffering? What do you do when suffering arises?

Jesus paid a price for our redemption; also Jesus shed His blood for the remission of sons; the price that we who are saved do not have to pay is the second death; the covenant determines who is saved.

I cannot speak for all Protestants but as I understand the issue the complaint of the Presbyterians is the RCC crucifies Christ daily or at each mass while they claim Christ was crucified once for all time and for all purposes; they see the error of the RCC as similar to the Jews who continued to kill sheep; they had failed to acknowledge or understand what Christ had done. The RCC see the merit in the sacrificing and the Protestants see the merit in the price paid.

Open Heart · Feb 21, 2017

gym_class_hero said:
He's not on the cross anymore.

He is sitting at the right hand of the Father. BUT the cross remains a permanent reality. It is the axis around which EVERYTHING turns. This is why Pauls says, "For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified." 1 Corinthians 2:2

Open Heart · Feb 21, 2017

Albion said:
On that account, I think you are also misinformed. If anything, Protestantism makes MORE out of the significance of the crucifixion than do the Catholic churches.

Explain.

Open Heart · Feb 21, 2017

sparow said:
the complaint of the Presbyterians is the RCC crucifies Christ daily or at each mass while they claim Christ was crucified once for all time and for all purposes

This is a common misunderstanding. We Catholics don't re-sacrifice Christ. What we do is participate in the one and only true sacrifice of Christ through the Eucharist.

FireDragon76 · Feb 21, 2017

Open Heart said:
... the cross remains a permanent reality. It is the axis around which EVERYTHING turns.

As a Lutheran I agree completely. In fact this is something both our churches share in common, we do not reduce the Cross to a purely legal, tit-for-tat transaction devoid of mystical symbolism.

JesusLovesOurLady · Feb 21, 2017

Albion said:
Where there IS a genuine difference is that Protestants believe that Christ's sacrifice made possible our salvation through Faith in him. By contrast, Catholics believe that Christ's sacrifice made our salvation possible through Faith and--IF we perform enough of them--the good works we do as believers. But if that is what you mean by "for Protestants the Jesus' crucifixion is something that happened in the past not something that one's life revolves around" then I'd agree to the general idea if not to the wording.

In general, sort of, but not specifically. What I mean by the Crucifixion revolving around the life of a Catholic is the practice of "Offering it up." When suffering, however small arises in one's life he or she can unite that suffering with the sacrifice of our Lord on the Cross and ask for something in prayer, this meditation helps unite us with our Lord.

In regards to the Catholic view of Salvation; not exactly. It's true that you have to do certain things to get into a state of grace (specifically get Baptized and/or go to Confession) It's even true that God expects every individual to reach a certain degree of holiness. But if you die in a state of grace with no stain of mortal sin on you, regardless of what you've done you are guaranteed Heaven, you may have to spend some time in purgatory but Heaven is guaranteed. My analogy of Salvation is that of a fish swimming upstream, you have to keep moving or you'll be swept away by the world, the flesh and the Devil, you can't stay put you're either going forwards or backwards, up or down.

Albion · Feb 21, 2017

As I get the point, it's that Catholics think they're participating in past events, while Protestants are more inclined to think of Christ's mighty works as complete and incomparable, a total triumph. Nothing can be added to make the crucifixion any more effective.

How does this add up to the idea that Protestants are less focused on or concerned with the crucifixion? How does the question asked in the OP: "So tell me Protestants how is the cross relevant for you?" make sense?

FireDragon76 · Feb 21, 2017

I don't just think Christ's Cross "made salvation possible". Jesus death atones for the sins of the whole world. I think Catholics agree on that point, too. If anything, the typical Calvinist view of the Cross is weaker, since the Calvinist denies the finite is capable of the infinite. The Cross is not capable of being a grace-bearing image of salvation. It's a mental reminder of stuff we are supposed to feel about Jesus suffering to settle the Elect's justice account with God.

Albion · Feb 21, 2017

FireDragon76 said:
I don't just think Christ's Cross "made salvation possible". Jesus death atones for the sins of the whole world.

It makes salvation possible if it was not possible for men who lived before the crucifixion to enter heaven--and that indeed was the case. As you said, it took away the sins of the whole world.

FireDragon76 · Feb 21, 2017

Albion said:
It makes salvation possible if it was not possible for men who lived before the crucifixion to enter heaven--and that indeed was the case. As you said, it took away the sins of the whole world.

OK, glad you clarified. Some Calvinists types want to parse it and say Jesus death was only for certain people chosen before time, or the Arminian types will say it was only for those that will believe (either way, it's still about certain groups of people only) Both of which seem to be making too fine a distinction that is not warranted by the Scriptures. And I think keeping it open like that is part of what is essential to the mystery of the Cross, that keeps it from being just some legal tit-for-tat with a certain group of people.

I would never go so far as to say salvation would have been impossible in some other possible world, by some other means. I think God is free to forgive us in any manner he chooses.

JesusLovesOurLady · Feb 21, 2017

gym_class_hero said:
He's not on the cross anymore.

But His sacrifice is eternal. Apocalypse/Revelations 5:6 describes Our Lord as the lamb standing while slain. The Book of Hebrews describes Our Lord as the High Priest entering the Heavenly Sanctuary to offer His Sacrifice, Heaven is eternal and so as Our Lord therefore, while in the temporal world the Crucifixion is an event in history, in the Heavenly realm, the Sacrifice is eternal and perpetual.

Albion · Feb 21, 2017

FireDragon76 said:
Some Calvinists types want to parse it and say Jesus death was only for certain people chosen before time, or the Arminian types will say it was only for those that will believe (either way, it's still about certain groups of people only) Both of which seem to be making too fine a distinction....

Yes, but neither of those takes its position in the absence of the cross. That being the case, it is central and essential.

I think God is free to forgive us in any manner he chooses.

Of course that's so, but we are committed to the Bible's teaching on the subject, which is to say man fell and no one could thereafter escape the consequences of sin except that, in time, a Savior paid the price.

Albion · Feb 21, 2017

JesusLovesOurLady said:
...Heaven is eternal and so as Our Lord therefore, while in the temporal world the Crucifixion is an event in history, in the Heavenly realm, the Sacrifice is eternal and perpetual.

That's poetic thinking, but the crucifixion did accomplish its objective once and for all. Other parts of the story are unfolding (such as the lifetimes of each man), but the Lord's triumph over death has been accomplished. As you said, it's so for eternity, but that doesn't mean it's unfinished.

throughfiierytrial · Feb 21, 2017

JesusLovesOurLady said:
Hello, I'm a Catholic (As my username implies) and I thought like to discuss my biggest issue with Protestantism, it's the phrase "Jesus suffered and died on the cross so that we don't have to suffer."
But Our Lord said:
"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." -Matthew 16:24 DRV

What's more Saint Paul says:
"Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church" -Colossians 1:24 DRV
And:
"I BESEECH you therefore, brethren, by the mercy of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing unto God, your reasonable service." -Romans 12:1 DRV This refers specifically to redemptive (AKA "Offering it up") in which we unite our own little sufferings with Christ's sacrifice on the Cross, that He may mediate between The Father and us.

We Catholics, except for people who reached a really high degree of holiness, do not actively seek suffering, but when it arises, we take it as an opportunity to unite with Our Lord on the cross. The belief that "Christ suffered so that we don't have to," quite frankly means that Protestants don't preach Christ crucified as Saint Paul commands us to, The Lord's sacrifice on the cross becomes just something that happened almost 2000 years ago, not something that one's entire life revolves around.

So tell me Protestants how is the cross relevant for you? And how do you sense out of suffering? What do you do when suffering arises?

Protestants are Bible believing Christians and as such understand all those passages you cite, here's another...
Philippians 1:29-30:
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him, since you are going through the same struggle you saw I had, and now hear that I still have.

We are not "earning our salvation" with Christ in this way. This is clear from the following passages...
Ephesians 2:8-10:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

FireDragon76 · Feb 21, 2017

Albion said:
That's poetic thinking, but the crucifixion did accomplish its objective once and for all. Other parts of the story are unfolding (such as the lifetimes of each man), but the Lord's triumph over death has been accomplished. As you said, it's so for eternity, but that doesn't mean it's unfinished.

You shifted the theme though, from satisfaction of a penalty to a victory over death. Yeah, the victory may be complete, but Jesus remains for us the crucified God (the resurrection does not un-crucify him), and I think that's what the Catholics are emphasizing.

megabuff · Feb 21, 2017

Hello
Jesus paid the price, its not what we do, except to trust totally in Him.

Our suffering will not gain us salvation

BTW
Some people seem to put their own brand of church above Jesus.

I find the term protestant to me some insulting.

[Staff edit].

AnthonyMarshall · Feb 22, 2017

[Staff edit].

I am not a catholic. I have never read or been taught that Jesus was crucified and suffered so that we can avoid suffering. Quite the contrary, I have been taught becoming a Christian would attract more suffering rather than less. Jesus suffered on the cross to pay for our sins not to spare us from suffering.

Does your denomination preach Christ-crucified?

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