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I'm just getting tired of having to repeat explanations of what Scripture means.
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Iron Clad example proving OSAS from John 10:28
- Thread starter FreeGrace2
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Wow! Not at all, just because Jesus did not give exceptions to divorce always being adultery does not mean there are no exceptions, so Mark 10:11 and Luke 16:18 are not untrue.
Just as we can take Jesus at His word in Mark 10:11 and Luke 16:18, but we cannot ignore other scripture.
Right this is an example of a truth given in one verse without the exceptions given in that verse, but taught other places.
Gal. 6:7-9 is plan about it.
No it specifically says “eternal life” is what you reap.
If Paul was eluding to some “additional rewards” you get along with eternal life it is not mentioned and there would be an emphasis on the quantity of seed sown bringing a greater amount of rewards.
Throughout life you are automatically either sowing good seed or bad seed (you do not have to “work” at it). Paul is not talking about the quantity of seed you sow (God gives the increase) just what you are sowing which is done no matter what you are doing.
I never suggested it could be “lost”, stolen, or even taken back by God.
You have Gal. 6:7-9 and
Since, as we agree, eternal life in heaven is a gift described as an inheritance and an inheritance is something you physically get in the future, it is like a birthright to a heavenly home. The Hebrew writer warns Christians about selling (really giving it away) their birthright, like Esau did with his birthright. What other meaning would birthright have in Heb. 12:16.
The other verses have to do with Christians “going back to their former ways”, but you might feel “falling away” would not mean giving up your home in heaven?
I am not questioning salvation being a gift and us having the gift of salvation, but if salvation is truly a gift; it cannot be taken back, stolen, or lost, but since it is truly owned by you, you can give it away.
How have you been disciplined personally for your previous sinful life?
Explain to me these extra heavenly “rewards” you are “working for, since I see getting everything up front with the exception of actually living in heaven now and we just do stuff out of pure gratitude?
Esau’s inheritance was not in his pocket, yet he gave it away for a bowl of soup and Christians have done the same with their inheritance.
All the verses that refer to the inheritance of salvation being our gift from God means we personally own it, like with all other gifts.
Would it make a difference if the Holy Spirit used other inspired people besides Jesus to expand on what Jesus said?
What we see in “other passages” inspired by the Holy Spirit further explanations of what Jesus was conveying.
Gal. 6:7-9 is specific.
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A rather rambling post, but I will respond to a few things.
The problem is that your interpretation of some Scripture definitely contradicts other very clear Scripture.
The key word is "reap", indicating effort. Salvation is NOT by any effort. Rewards are reaped.
Or course not. The phrase "falling away" is found in a verse about those who "believed for a while". So, what did they fall away from? Their belief, that's what. No suggestion of "giving up their home in heaven".
Then please find a verse that very plainly says so.
Who's talking about "previous"? Discipline is for one's PRESENT life.
Just read 1 Cor 11:30 to find out about how God disciplines His children.
Then read Heb 12:5-11 to learn that God's discipline is PAINFUL.
2 Tim 2:12 is one. Reigning with Christ. Many of the parables were about eternal rewards for faithful service.
Please explain clearly WHY you accept the fact that eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23), that God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29), yet you don't accept the fact that eternal life is therefore irrevocable.
He already did that. All the writers of Scripture.
And I've explained it. And you've not refuted it.
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TheSeabass
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Back in the first post I made in this thread, I posted the following (in blue)
There are TWO sides to man's salvation:
1) the Christians faithfulness to God, Revelations 2:10; 1 Corinthinas 4:1-2
2) Gods faithfulness to the groups Christian, Christ's sheep
John 10:28 is God's side in salvation in His faithfulness to those that are sheep. Yet John 10:27 show the Christians' side in remaining faithful to Christ in 'Hearing and following" him in order to continue to be a sheep that God is faithful to.
Those that promote OSAS will look at the verses that speak to God's side of salvation and claim these verses have to do with eternal security when they do not, but all the (while) they do not look at the Christians' side of salvation in his required faithfulness to God/Christ/the word of God.
..and this is EXACTLY what you have been doing. You cherry-pick verses as John 10:28 that speak of God's faithfulness to the group Christian and force OSAS into it all the while ignoring John 10:27 that tells us of the faithful Christians who make up the sheep in v28. It is impossible to be of the sheep in v28 without ever hearing and following Christ. It is impossible one can be of Christ BEFORE he hears and follows CHrist.
You "one verse theology" of verse 28 fails. Verses 27 and 28 are one continuous thought. Again, your argument is dead right here.....but that will not stop you from continuing to try and argue the impossible to protect a pet man made theology.
Neatz tied to argue from this impossible position, but has not responded yet to it being impossible. I do not see other OSAS proponents here arguing for your impossible position.
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Your claim of my "cherry-picking" is only because of the verses I show that refute your position.
v.27 does NOT show the conditions for NEVER PERISHING. The sole condition is STATED in v.28, which refutes your claim of lifestyle as a condition. Neither does John 3:15, 16, 5:24, or 6:40 or 47 have any condition other than simply having eternal life. Which is by faith, not by works.
OK, I'll show AGAIN the verses on how one is saved and how one receives eternal life.
Salvation:
Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."
Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'
Acts 16:31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Rom 10:9, 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
Eternal Life:
John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord
1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
Wrong. v.28 is the sole condition for receiving eternal life, which is given to ALL who believe, not just the faithful ones.
Your pet man made theology has already been refuted from Scripture.
It's hardly impossible. Since salvation is by grace, it's totally possible for God to save man. But only by grace, which your theology seems to have ignored.
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It seems that your opinion is quite mixed up. The only saved people are believers. Even Paul was a Pharisee, but he was saved ONLY BECAUSE he believed:
1 Tim 1:16
But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.
black.and.white
You've again missed the meaning of the word.
A hypocrite is one who says one thing but lives another.
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“other very clear Scripture” do not have “obvious” interpretations or everyone would be interpreting them the same way.
Scripture is very specific here: Ro. 6: 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Here you reap holiness and eternal life as a result and yet it is also called a “gift”.
Do you have a hard time believing salvation is a gift?
Do you feel you own salvation or are you just a steward of your salvation?
Do you have a hard time believing a gift given changes ownership from the giver to the receiver of the gift?
You are disciplined for previous sins and not for future sins, as far as the present goes, it immediately becomes the past.
Are you disciplined after repenting of a sin and after the sin is forgiven and if so how?
The parable of the servants in the vineyard suggest everyone gets the same no matter how much they work, so what parables are you thinking about?
Specifically 2 Tim 2:12 says: “if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us”;
OSAS presents the idea all elect will “endure” so all will reign with Him, and this is contrasted with disowning him, so where is there differences in amount of rewards with this verse?
First off you cannot just take Ro. 11:29 out of context. Ro. 11:25-32 talks specifically about Jews and the promises, gifts and calling Ro. 11; 29 “for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.” Which is in the context of: 26 “and in this way all Israel will be saved.” But Paul just got through saying 23 “And if they do not persist in unbelief,…” so they can perish in unbelieve, so not all will be saved.
You said it had to do with additional rewards being lost beyond salvation, but it specifically save the harvest you reap is eternal life and says nothing about any “additional” rewards.
These additional rewards being lost because you give up; is something you came up with, since specifically it says eternal life and nothing about sowing to get some additional rewards.
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TheSeabass
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You are ignoring verse 27!!!!! Did you cut it out of your copy of the bible??
Verse 28 speaks of sheep that will not perish, it says nothing as to how one becomes one of those sheep. Verse 27 tells who/how one becomes of the sheep of v28.
Verses 27 and 28 are one thought connected. You have not yet proven one can be saved/receive grace/be of Christ's sheep BEFORE he even hears and follows Christ nor can you show if one quits hearing and following Christ he will still be saved anyway in his disobedient, unrighteous unbelief. So your OSAS dies here. You can carry on with your faulty argument......
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I said this:
"Then please find a verse that very plainly says so."
So, I obviously DON'T have a "hard time" believing salvation is a gift.
In fact, Paul made that exact point again in Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
The subject of this verse is salvation. It is the gift of God.
So, because salvation and eternal life are described as gifts, they cannot be earned, nor are they deserved.
Which is why they are by grace.
Are you a slave, or do you own your own body? It's one or the other.
[QUOET]Do you have a hard time believing a gift given changes ownership from the giver to the receiver of the gift?[/QUOTE]
Not at all. The question is simply ridiculous.
So, since 12a is about enduring for reigning with Him, those who don't endure, meaning they have denied Him, they will be denied reigning with Him.
don't believe the fake news that all believers will reign with Christ. This verse clearly teaches that one must endure to do that. It's not about salvation, but what is possible after salvation.
Please do some research and learn the difference between reformed OSAS and biblical OSAS. They are somewhat different.
Your argument isn't with my understanding of OSAS but with the Calvinists.
spiritual gifts in 1:11
justification in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17
eternal life in 6:23
How are these specifically described gifts NOT the context for 11:29? No one has been able to show that they weren't being included in 11:29. All that has been done is to claim "context", limiting 11:29 to be only related to ch 9-11, but Paul NEVER even mentioned "gifts" between 6:23 and 11:29, so your claim about "context" is bogus.
Since Paul had already specifically described 3 of God's gifts, he would have HAD TO specifically exclude any of those that he wasn't referring to in 11:29.
But he never did that. So the context for 11:29 is EVERYWHERE he already specifically mentioned gifts that are from God.
That means that spiritual gifts are irrevocable.
That means that justification is irrevocable.
That means that eternal life is irrevocable.
More than that, 11:29 included God's call along with God's gifts. Here is what Paul already wrote about God's call in Romans:
1:5 - Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.
9:25 - As he says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people; and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”
So, what do we learn from this? God's call is also for the Gentiles, not just the Jews.
So to claim that 11:29 is only about some un-named gifts of God to the Jews falls apart.
God's gifts are for both Jew and Gentile. Just as God's call is for both.
"Then please find a verse that very plainly says so."
This is an amazing question. In my strong defense of eternal security, I've repeatedly used Rom 6:23 and 11:29 to prove that eternal life, WHICH IS A GIFT OF GOD, is also irrevocable.
So, I obviously DON'T have a "hard time" believing salvation is a gift.
In fact, Paul made that exact point again in Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
The subject of this verse is salvation. It is the gift of God.
So, because salvation and eternal life are described as gifts, they cannot be earned, nor are they deserved.
Which is why they are by grace.
Since it is a gift GIVEN by God, that makes it something of mine. iow, I do "own" it, although that's a rather weird way of describing it. More than "ownership", as a result of having salvation and eternal life, I am a new creation, per 2 Cor 5:17.
Are you a slave, or do you own your own body? It's one or the other.
[QUOET]Do you have a hard time believing a gift given changes ownership from the giver to the receiver of the gift?[/QUOTE]
Not at all. The question is simply ridiculous.
I think Heb 12:5-11 is clear enough to answer your questions.
That parable is just about being saved. Everyone gets saved, regardless of how long they were saved.
The Greek word means to "deny" or "reject". Not "disown".
So, since 12a is about enduring for reigning with Him, those who don't endure, meaning they have denied Him, they will be denied reigning with Him.
don't believe the fake news that all believers will reign with Christ. This verse clearly teaches that one must endure to do that. It's not about salvation, but what is possible after salvation.
No, that is not OSAS; that's the false teaching from Calvinism, who have added their false ideas into OSAS.
Please do some research and learn the difference between reformed OSAS and biblical OSAS. They are somewhat different.
Your argument isn't with my understanding of OSAS but with the Calvinists.
Where did Paul specifically describe ANY gift to Israel? He didn't. So hiding behind the claim of "context" is disingenuous. Paul had already specifically described 3 of God's gifts in his epistle to the Romans:
spiritual gifts in 1:11
justification in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17
eternal life in 6:23
How are these specifically described gifts NOT the context for 11:29? No one has been able to show that they weren't being included in 11:29. All that has been done is to claim "context", limiting 11:29 to be only related to ch 9-11, but Paul NEVER even mentioned "gifts" between 6:23 and 11:29, so your claim about "context" is bogus.
Since Paul had already specifically described 3 of God's gifts, he would have HAD TO specifically exclude any of those that he wasn't referring to in 11:29.
But he never did that. So the context for 11:29 is EVERYWHERE he already specifically mentioned gifts that are from God.
That means that spiritual gifts are irrevocable.
That means that justification is irrevocable.
That means that eternal life is irrevocable.
More than that, 11:29 included God's call along with God's gifts. Here is what Paul already wrote about God's call in Romans:
1:5 - Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.
9:25 - As he says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people; and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”
So, what do we learn from this? God's call is also for the Gentiles, not just the Jews.
So to claim that 11:29 is only about some un-named gifts of God to the Jews falls apart.
God's gifts are for both Jew and Gentile. Just as God's call is for both.
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I said this:
"Your claim of my "cherry-picking" is only because of the verses I show that refute your position.
v.27 does NOT show the conditions for NEVER PERISHING. The sole condition is STATED in v.28, which refutes your claim of lifestyle as a condition. Neither does John 3:15, 16, 5:24, or 6:40 or 47 have any condition other than simply having eternal life. Which is by faith, not by works."
What does it mean to be the gate? It means salvation is only through Him. Same principle found in John 14:6.
To "enter through the gate" is a metaphor for faith in Christ.
Nowhere did Jesus EVER say that one must follow Him to be saved. So your idea about v.27 being a condition falls apart.
Jesus was consistent in saying that one must believe in Him to be saved.
It should be obvious to anyone that one MUST hear and BELIEVE in Christ to be saved.
But your inclusion of works-based salvation cannot be found in Scripture. The command to follow is for those who are already His sheep. Not to become one of His sheep.
Your views are very confused.
You aksed this:
"You are ignoring verse 27!!!!! Did you cut it out of your copy of the bible??"
Rather ingenuous, given that your view completely ignored the truth of these verses:
Eph 2:8-9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
I cannot imagine how anyone can hold to your views with these verses.
Not to mention Rom 6:23 and 11:29 showing that eternal life, a gift of God, is therefore irrevocable.
"Your claim of my "cherry-picking" is only because of the verses I show that refute your position.
v.27 does NOT show the conditions for NEVER PERISHING. The sole condition is STATED in v.28, which refutes your claim of lifestyle as a condition. Neither does John 3:15, 16, 5:24, or 6:40 or 47 have any condition other than simply having eternal life. Which is by faith, not by works."
Really dumb claim. Anyone with a grasp of the language can easily see that v.27 isn't part of the condition for never perishing. That occurs only in v.28.
Wrong again. The issue of HOW one becomes His sheep is stated WAY BACK in v.9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.
What does it mean to be the gate? It means salvation is only through Him. Same principle found in John 14:6.
To "enter through the gate" is a metaphor for faith in Christ.
Nowhere did Jesus EVER say that one must follow Him to be saved. So your idea about v.27 being a condition falls apart.
Jesus was consistent in saying that one must believe in Him to be saved.
I don't have to prove it because it's NOT MY VIEW. It's a wrong view.
It should be obvious to anyone that one MUST hear and BELIEVE in Christ to be saved.
But your inclusion of works-based salvation cannot be found in Scripture. The command to follow is for those who are already His sheep. Not to become one of His sheep.
Your views are very confused.
You aksed this:
"You are ignoring verse 27!!!!! Did you cut it out of your copy of the bible??"
Rather ingenuous, given that your view completely ignored the truth of these verses:
Eph 2:8-9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
I cannot imagine how anyone can hold to your views with these verses.
Not to mention Rom 6:23 and 11:29 showing that eternal life, a gift of God, is therefore irrevocable.
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No problem we are in full agreement here.
God did not “give” us our bodies and God can take our bodies away from us at any time and we cannot take our own life. Eternal life is a gift.
Not sure we are in agreement here? Just because I am not a slave in society, does not mean I am not a slave to God or satan?
The difference is I choose who is my master and who I will serve, after I hear the word.
Yes, we are “new creatures” with the indwelling Holy Spirit as Christians but we still have free will can quench the Spirit, sin and even give up.
If you own it and it is really yours why can’t you give it away?
This is really another subject.
Wait just a minute here: This is definitely talking about “working in the vineyard” and we agree you do not “work for salvation” so it could not be addressing as you say “salvation”. This is talking about those that have accepted the master’s invitation ‘working” different amounts yet getting the same reward.
Actually how long the workers works there is not what is so unique, but how much more work the workers that came at the first hour compared to workers of the last hour did for exactly the same reward (pay). If those that came at the first hour did only an hour’s worth work; would they have complained?
Specifically it is saying “ Christ deny the individual person ” and not some “gift” or reward. When it says “Christ will “deny” or “reject” or “disown” it is not in the Greek directed at the “reigning” but it directed specifically at the individual “us”.
It is very plain on the subject, so it does not matter if you say “deny”, “reject” or “disown” since it is not speaking about the “reigning” but the individual.
Paul takes this teaching from Christ: Matt. 10: 32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
Ro. 5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
Do we not all reign in that sense?
1 Cr. 6: 2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels?
If we are to judge the world are we not all in an exalted position of reigning?
There were lots of wonderful things given to each individual Jew at birth that was not given to the gentiles at their birth and that is a huge part of what Paul is talking about in Romans and especially in chapters 9,10,&11. This is too big of a subject to include here.
Were all these “irrevocable” gifts given to all the Jews, because Paul sure seems to be saying that and you seem to feel it was given to all the gentiles also?
Is Paul just referring to the Jewish Christians in Ro. 9, 10 &11?
Was and are even today every Jew given these irrevocable gifts?
Is every Jew thus heaven bound?
I agree with Paul in that all these gifts (much more than just the three you bring up) were given to every Jew, but as Paul teaches some reject or have given these gifts away?
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EmSw
White Horse Rider
How can one believe in Jesus when they deny or reject Him?
Have you read these words?
1 John 2
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
Do you not see that one who denies Jesus is a liar? Tell us where all liars end up.
Do you also not see that one who denies the Father and the Son is an antichrist?
And yet, you believe one who denies Jesus will be saved. How weird it is that you think an antichrist will be saved.
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And Rom 11:29 says that God's gifts are irrevocable. And Paul never excluded the gift of eternal life from the gifts that are irrevocable.
We are new creatures, and without any quote marks.
Second, quenching the Spirit, sin and even giving up has NO EFFECT on our salvation. If it did, salvation would be up to us. But it isn't up to us. It's up to God. And His plan is to save forever those who believe. Heb 7:25
Because the Bible never says that you can. In fact, the Bible says that we are held IN God's hands. Not the other way around. And that those Jesus gives eternal life, WILL NEVER PERISH. Quite straight forward.
The context is v.12a. And what it means is that Christ WILL deny the believer the privilege of reigning with Him.
To reign with Christ is NOT any kind of gift. It MUST be earned by enduring, just as v.12a SAYS.
And those who deny Him have NOT endured, and will therefore NOT reign with Him.
Very straightforward.
Simple claim. Please provide a thorough explanation of your point. I'm not buying simple claims.
Your opinion about the verse is refuted by the PLAIN WORDS OF THE VERSE.
In order to reign with Christ, one MUST endure. In v.12b, the one who denies Christ shows that he hasn't endured. So the connection is clear:
endure and reign with Christ
deny Him (by not enduring) and He will deny reigning with Him.
Same Greek word as in 2 Tim 2:12. And I've provided a very logical and reasonable explanation for WHY the denial is about reigning with Christ and NOT about losing salvation.
Salvation isn't even in the discussion here.
This is completely different. Recall that Adam's sin in Gen 2:17 became "the one man's offense" by which "death reigned". (Rom 5:12-14)
iow, men were ruled by death through the power of sin in their lives that resulted in a death-oriented experience (6:23).
By contrast, those who receive abundance (v.15) of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reighn IN LIFE through the One, Jesus Christ.
Death has automatic dominion over those born of Adam. Yet those who will reign in life are those who receive the gift of righteousness.
This verse has no relevance to reigning with Christ in the Millennium or in eternity beyond the Millennium. Context makes that clear, as I've pointed out.
How is this ruling with Christ?
I will not conflate the two. There is no basis for it.
The big problem with your view here is that there is absolutely NO evidence for anything related to "gifts to Jews only". Paul specifically described 3 things that are gifts of God before he got to Rom 11:29, and there is NO EVIDENCE in the context of ch 9-11 that Paul was excluding any of those 3 specific gifts from 11:29.
It is irrational to try to exclude any of the 3 gifts from 11:29.
You've not shown that Paul was describing ANY "irrevocable gift" to Jews only.
No, to all Jews. Not just saved ones.
Please identify WHERE Paul indicated and specified any such "irrevocable gifts" to Jews only.
Nope. Just the saved ones.
Because Paul specifically described those 3. And there is no reason at all to claim that any of them should be excluded from Rom 11:29.
When Paul spoke of "rejecting the gift" he clearly meant that they refused to believe in the first place. He NEVER meant that anyone who HAD the gift rejected it.
Second, where in the Bible did Paul teach or claim that some have given away the gift of eternal life???
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Obviously, they can't. But how does this irrelevant response relate to my explanation of what 2 Tim 2:12 means??
Yes, every month for over 15 years. Your point?
The saved ones WILL NEVER PERISH. The unsaved ones end up in the second death because they NEVER received the free gift of eternal life.
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John was obviously referring to those who NEVER accepted Him in the first place.
Jesus was clear about who WILL NEVER PERISH. It's those who He gave eternal life to? Do you believe that?
It seems that you do not believe that. The basis for never perishing is based and conditioned on what is received by Him, NOT by whatever we do afterward.
If your views are correct, then what Jesus said in John 10:28 becomes untrue.
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EmSw
White Horse Rider
Who is the 'we' in 2 Timothy 2:12?
If we endure, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.
Will liars ever perish? You didn't answer where all liars go. Why not?
You say a 'believer' can lie, can be an antichrist, can deny Jesus, and yet be saved.
Is your heaven full of thieves, murderers, liars, adulterers, deniers, blasphemers, godless, backbiters, and all other manner of evil, if they only believe?
What kind of heaven have you given the most holy God?
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EmSw
White Horse Rider
You say one who denies Jesus after believing is saved. If this view is correct, then John is lying.
1 John 2
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
You say one can deny Jesus after believing. John says those who deny the Son do not have the father either.
Two things -
1. John says 'whoever'. This means any man, woman, or child. This is the same word used in John 3:16. Have you gone 'Reformed' on us? Do you also think it means a certain group of people?
2. Notice the word 'either'. Whoever denies the Son does HAVE Him, just as he does not HAVE the Father 'EITHER'. How can one who denies Jesus (which it says in 2 Timothy 2:12, also in Matthew 10:33), have the Son or the Father? They can't! They are no longer saved!
2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
Matthew 10:33
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
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