The Need to Speak in Tongues at Home

Daniel Marsh

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I did a little editing to shorten each part...

I'm afraid your post is full of errors.....

Hi Swordsman, besides reading the Bible in context, what other academic books gives one insight to this topic?

Acts 2 is the only description of the gift of tongues we have in scripture. It is clearly foreign human languages....are interpreted in the light of clearer ones (Acts 2).

BINGO

Luke uses the exact same terminology to describe the gift of tongues (glossa and laleo) as Paul does in 1 Corinthians. Luke was a close companion of Paul's and wrote Acts under the apostle's authority. I...

I was not aware of laleo. IS there an author who points that out?

...
The tongues the gentiles experienced at Cornelius' house was exactly the same as Pentecost. Peter says so in his report to the Jerusalem council in Acts 11:15,17:

“As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning....So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

It was because the Gentiles' manifestation of the Spirit was exactly the same as the disciples at Pentecost that the gentiles were accepted into the Church. If it was anything different the hated Gentiles would never have been accepted.

That is a fantastic point!!!!!!!!!!!! IS there an author who points that out?

Paul doesn't say tongues is a non-human language.

The point Paul stresses in his analogy is the failure of the sound to communicate, not on it being indistinct:

1 Cor 14:8 "if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle?"

I could not have said that better.

The word glossa in scripture or any other ancient Greek literature is never used to describe gibberish. It has been shown in research by Christopher Forbes (and others) that the Pythia never spoke in gibberish but rather in mysterious sayings.

Who are those authors and their books? Concerning speaking gibberish, Jesus warns us to avoid it. "vain repetitions"

In the the NT and LXX the word glossa is clearly associated with foreign human language. Acts 2:4-11, 1 Cor 14:21, Rev 7:9; 10:11; 11:9; 13:7; 14:6; 17:15; Genesis 10:5, 20, 31; Deut 28:49; Neh 13:24; Esther 1:22; 3:12; 8:9; Job 15:5; Prov 17:20; Isa 3:8; Isaiah 28:11, 33:19, 66:18; Jer 5:15; Ezek 3:5,6; Dan 1:4; Zech 8:23;

IS there an author who points that out? Does he print out the interlinear for those texts?


That's right. Here is the full passage. It consists of 5 parallel 'IF' statements where Paul imagines 5 extreme hypothetical examples of a gift to emphasize the worthlessness of having spiritual gifts without love:

If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge;
and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor,
and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
Even if someone had the gift of tongues to such a degree that they spoke in the language of angels, but didn't have love, it would be worthless to them.

Even if someone had the gift of prophecy to such a degree that they knew ALL mysteries and ALL knowledge (ie they were omniscient), but didn't have love, it would be worthless to them.

Even if someone had the gift of faith to such a degree that they could remove mountains, but didn't have love, it would be a worthless to them.

Even if someone had the gift of giving to such a degree that they gave ALL their possessions to the poor, but didn't have love, it would be worthless to them.

Even if someone had the gift of giving to such a degree that they gave their own life, but didn't have love, it would be worthless to them.

Paul is imagining having the highest conceivable degree of each gift, and saying even they would be worthless without love. None of these extreme hypothetical examples represent the normal operations of those gifts, including speaking with the tongues of angels.

one always should outline a text via good grammar. Someone who wrote a book on Methodological Interpretation once spoke in a church I attended when I was in the USAF. He was Free Methodist and his books are hard to find now days.

The word 'pneumatōn' (πνευμάτων) in 1 Cor 14:12 literally means 'spirituals'. ie spiritual somethings. The somethings are determined by the context. Eg It could be spiritual people, spiritual beings, spiritual words etc. But here the context of the verse is spiritual gifts. Which is what every single bible translation has translated it as. There is not a single version that has translated it as "since you are zealous for spirits", let alone "since you are zealous for angels":
1 Corinthians 14:12 - Bible Gateway

Exactly, a phrase or word always gets its meaning from context. The JW's often do the word study fallacy the OPer did to deny who Jesus was. Example, John 17 "one in purpose" is read into John 10:30 "we are one" to deny that they are one in nature.


Both of those books are apocryphal fairy tales. It would be no more plausible for a reader of the Testament of Job to believe they can speak in the language of angels than it would for someone today to believe they can fly after watching 'Superman Returns'.

Even if some of it's readers were gullible enough to believe that someone really did speak in the language of angels, that doesn't mean Paul beleived that is what was happening in Corinth.



Moving mountains, becoming omniscient, giving away all your possessions, giving up your own life are not the normal expected operations of those gifts. Neither is speaking in the language of angels.

I still want to know whom, or where the primary source for that Rabbi is since online there is only one passing reference to it. And, it does not appear in any academic sources online that I could find.

The Testament of Job addition came from a cultic source as the links I gave in a post in this thread showed.

'Kinds' (genos) in 1 Cor 12:10 means different kinds within the same family. It is the same word used in 1 Cor 14:10 "There are, perhaps, a great many KINDS of languages in the world"



Paul never mentions speaking in tongues in private. Speaking in tongues in private would be a misuse of a spiritual gift which are only for the purpose of ministering to others:

1 Peter 4:10 "Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others"

1 Cor 12:7 "Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good."



The point Paul is making in this verse is that the Corinthians were ONLY edifying themselves, when they should have been edifying the church. The 'but' immediately after indicates a deficiency. It is a rebuke, not an exhortation.



1 Cor 14:28 "But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God."

There is no mention of speaking tongues 'at home' in that verse. You are reading something into the verse that isn't there. The context remains 'in the church' throughout. In the church the speaker is to keep quiet and speak to himself and to God (silently) ie. just mouthing the words or at most whispering.



Outside the church Paul would not speak in tongues in private as that would be a misuse of a spiritual gift. He would have spoken in tongues in the marketplaces and streets during his missionary endeavors as a confirming miraculous sign that God was with him. Just as the disciples did at Pentecost.

A main problem I have always noticed is a me-ism and lack of serving others.
There are a few outstanding exceptions. But, me-ism tends to rule like at Corinth.

Romans 8:26 is nothing to do with tongues. No mention is made of tongues in Romans, and it would be completely out of place in this context, which is believers suffering under the weight of a sinful world. It is the Spirit who “groans” in intercession, not believers. Tongues however were words of praise, not groans of suffering. The disciples were not 'groaning' at Pentecost. Also the groans are ‘wordless’ ie. inaudible, inexpressible (ἀλάλητος) - and cannot be translated. And Romans 8:26 applies to all believers, whereas not everyone had the gift of tongues (1 Cor 12:30, Rom 12:4-6).

The OP quote of the Romans 8:26 is just another example of a word study fallacy, mainly reading into the text.

Not everyone had the gift of tongues.

1 Cor 12:29-30 "Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?"

The expected answer to each question is "No". The context here is the body of Christ, the universal church (1 Cor 12:27). Not everyone in the body of Christ has the same gift. This point is made over and over again by Paul:

Romans 12:4-6 "For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us."

1 Corinthians 12:8-10 "To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues."

1 Corinthians 12:17 "If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be?"

again, just outline the grammar applies.

The admonition to desire the greater gifts was addressed to the Corinthian church as a whole, not to the individual believer. Immediately before this verse Paul lists the gifts in order of importance - "first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues." The greater gifts are those listed at the head of the list (prophecy, teaching), not tongues which is at the bottom.

********

No. Read 14:5 again. It doesn't say that translated tongues equal to prophecy. It says the persons exhibiting those gifts are equal:

The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

Gifts that serve the whole church are greater than those that are used for me-ism.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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swordsman: "Acts 2 is the only description of the gift of tongues we have in scripture. It is clearly foreign human languages. The description is clear and definitive."

On the contrary, Acts 2 never claims to define every manifestation of the gift of tongues. When Peter celebrates the fact that Cornelius' household speaks in tongues like the 120 did, he means only that speaking in tongues has erupted again, not that the nature of the tongues were the same on both occasions. The tongues in Cornelius' household are neither understood nor interpreted and the tongues at Ephesus are distinguished from prophesying, in contrast to the tongues in Acts 2 which function as prophesying in fulfillment of Joel 2:28. Peter's phrase "This is that" (2:16) connects the alleged drunken babble with the prophesying foretold in Joel 2:28. I challenge you to find one academic commentary that disagrees with this point.

Paul agrees the documented Jewish tradition that people can speak in angelic tongues. His equation of tongues with "angelic tongues (13:1) and his portrayal of tongues as zeal for spirits (= angels--14:12) is just as definitive as Acts 2.

swordsman: "If Luke knew that Paul's tongues were different from those at Pentecost he would never have used the same terminology.

First, I have already established that the tongues in Acts 2 differs in essential ways from the tongues in Acts 10 and 19.
Second, you seem unaware the Luke does not share the same doctrine of the Holy Spirit as Paul. In Luke-Acts, Luke overlooks the fact that Spirit baptism is another operation of the Holy Spirit after the Spirit's work of spiritual regeneration. In Acts, unlike Paul, it is always a question of the initial work of the Holy Spirit. The fact that Paul's understanding of the gift includes angel tongues reflects this fact and indeed the fact that various NT writers use the same terms in different ways. That realization is a cornerstone of NT exegesis.

That point is ironically illustrated by your next point:

swordsman: "...in Acts 2 the tongues was not a message to the people. It was praise to God - "we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”.

Now you are contradicting yourself. The interpreted tongues in Paul are a "sign to unbelievers" that convey a message to be obeyed. This is very different from your so-called definitive tongues in Acts 2! What makes that tongues a prophetic fulfillment of Joel is the fact that "prophesying" means inspired "forthtelling" and the Pentecost tongues were understood with no need for the gift of interpretation.

swordsman: "The tongues the gentiles experienced at Cornelius' house was exactly the same as Pentecost." Peter says so in his report to the Jerusalem council in Acts 11:15,17:



Paul doesn't say tongues is a non-human language.



The point Paul stresses in his analogy is the failure of the sound to communicate, not on it being indistinct:

1 Cor 14:8 "if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle?"



T"he word glossa in scripture or any other ancient Greek literature is never used to describe gibberish. It has been shown in research by Christopher Forbes (and others) that the Pythia never spoke in gibberish but rather in mysterious sayings."

Wrong! See the Kittel article (TDNT I). What the Delphic male prophet interprets is often an oracle so mysterious that the recipient doesn't understand it. You apparently haven't read any books that list and document these oracles to see what I mean.

swordsman: "(1 Corinthians 13:1-3) consists of 5 parallel 'IF' statements where Paul imagines 5 extreme hypothetical examples..."

Wrong again! They don't have to be "normal;" they just need to correspond with actual experiences, regardless of how common. Your point about hypotheticals is irrelevant to the fact that Jesus' expects mountain-moving faith and Paul equates tongues with a "zeal for spirits," i. e. by implication, "ministering spirits or angels (Hebrews 1:14).

swordsman: "The word 'pneumatōn' (πνευμάτων) in 1 Cor 14:12 literally means 'spirituals'."

Wrong! You don't know Greek very well. The phrase in 14:12 is "zelotai pneumatwn" (= "zealots of or for spirits"). "Pneumatwn" here is the genitive plural of "pneuma," which means "spirit" and the plural means "spirits" or "angels (see Hebrews 1:14). What you don't realize is that the word for "spiritual" is "pneumatikos" (e.g .1 Corinthians 2:15; 12:2).

swordsman: "'Kinds' (genos) in 1 Cor 12:10 means different kinds within the same family."
You forget that the phrase is "a variety of kinds," which can include angelic "kinds." In Mark 16:17 "new tongues" can mean "tongues not yet spoken on earth and hence "angelic tongues."

swordsman: "Paul never mentions speaking in tongues in private. Speaking in tongues in private would be a misuse of a spiritual gift which are only for the purpose of ministering to others."

You need to read more carefully. I have already decisively refuted your claim here and you have completely ducked my detailed explanation. For example, you keep forgetting that Paul's claim that speaking in tongues "edifies" the individual 14:4) must be positive because the Greek "oikodomeo" is always positive when it is applied to building up believers! That already implies the legitimacy of private tongues. And you keep on overlooking the idiom "heautw" in 14:28, "speak (in tongues) for yourselves and to God." This command urges private glossolalia when the gift can't be interpreted in church. Paul is not abruptly changing the subject to thinking in Greek to yourself and to God! What makes you case even more absurd is that it makes a mockery of Paul's insistence that we must digilently "strive for" gifts like tongues. Such striving obviously requires private trial balloons.

swordsman: "The admonition to desire the greater gifts was addressed to the Corinthian church as a whole, not to the individual believer."

Wrong as usual! Paul says, "I want you ALL to speak in tongues" and "you can ALL prophesy one by one." Here "all" means "all" and thus refers to each individual believer.

swordsman: "Read 14:5 again. It doesn't say that translated tongues equal to prophecy. It says the persons exhibiting those gifts are equal|

Of course, but you again miss the point. Paul makes the point that the prophesier is equal in "greatness" to the interpreted tongues speaker because he wants to imply that the 2 gifts can be equally great.


I would like to know where your sources are online and in academic books. I could care less about popular or devotional sources.

Concerning,

Plutarch served as a priest at Delphi, and in his histories he has left many details about the inner workings of the sanctuary. Pythia entered the inner chamber of the temple ("Adyton"), sat on a tripod and inhaled the light hydrocarbon gasses that escaped from a chasm on the porous earth. After falling into a trance, she muttered words incomprehensible to mere mortals. The priests of the sanctuary then interpreted her oracles in a common language and delivered them to those who had requested them. Even so, the oracles were always open to interpretation and often signified dual and opposing meanings.

"You will go you will return not in the battle you will perish" was an example of this duality of meaning. The above sentence can be interpreted two different ways depending where the comma can be placed. If a comma is placed after the word "not" the message is discouraging for him who is about to depart for war. If on the other hand the comma is placed before the word "not", then the warrior is to return alive.
Delphi

this is 180 degrees from Acts 2 in context.

The pagan prophet-interpreter hedged their bet using vague language.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Biblicist, you have offered thoughtful additions to the thread. A locale in the Temple area would account for the otherwise inexplicable thousands of witnesses in Acts 2.

A similar question arises for the location of Paul's tradition of a resurrection appearance to 500+ witnesses (1 Corinthians 15:6). 2 possibilities intrigue me: (1) a worship service at Jesus' tomb; (2) the resurrection appearance on the Galilean Mount reported in Matthew 28:16-20. I prefer the 2nd possibility for 4 reasons.
(a) Matthew seems to have a tendency to mention only the 12, when a much larger group is present (Matthew 10:1; cp. Luke 10:1).
(b) Matthew's qualification in 28:17, "but some doubted," seems inexplicable if only the 11 who have already seen the Risen Jesus in Jerusalem are present.
(c) Matthew locates this appearance on "the mountain to which Jesus had directed them (28:16)." If Jesus had at some point identified this mountain as the location of His future appearance, surely word of this would be spread to other believers who would then be eager to be present as witnesses.
(d) It is hard enough to reconcile our Gospel resurrection appearances with those listed in 1 Corinthians 15:3-8. So the extent to which Paul's list points to different versions of Gospel appearances should be carefully explored.

Biblicist: "As to the question of the 120 being empowered to speak known human languages or if the unregenerate crowd were empowered to hear, I would take the simple language of the text where Luke is pointing to the 120 being empowered; it is difficult to understand why anyone would presume that on the Day of Pentecost where the Spirit was given to the fledgling Church that the Spirit would be given to the unregenerate and not to the Children of God."

I don't reject your preference, but am troubled by how hard it is to imagine 3,000 pilgrims hearing messages in their own languages, when the 120 are all speaking in tongues at once. I would also point out one of the features that distinguishes the great Welsh and Hebrides revivals of the 20th century from more ordinary times of spiritual refreshment: as J. Edwin Orr notes, in the Welsh and Hebrides revivals, the Holy Spirit seems to fall primarily on the unchurched.


simple,

Acts 2, they did not have glass windows, so streets on four sides.

I Cor 15, every appearance was not at the same time and place. There was 30 or 40 days between his resurrection and accession.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Like so many wannabe Fundamentalist apologists, swordsman creates strawmen to confirm his sheltered perspective. Thus, he would have you believe that Pentecostals typically believe that their glossolalia to be angelic angelic language. Here are just 3 cases that demonstrate swordsman's need to leave his myopic theological Ghetto and just get out more:

(1) When I was 19, I joined YWAM (Youth with a Mission), a Christian organization devoted to witnessing in the streets and door to door all over the world. Its founder, Loren Cunningham, was driving our bus from Winnipeg to Toronto, when he told me this story. He was visiting an Amazon tribe, hoping to find a way to share his faith beyond the usual tracts. No interpreter was yet available. So he just spoke in tongues, and the natives were shocked to hear him witness to Jesus in their language. Just then a woman with cataracts approached him. Loren realized that she wanted him to pray for her. So he laid hands on her and her cataracts vanished! This miracle opened minds to the Gospel in a unique way. Loren's testimony illustrates the frequently close connection between speaking in tongues and divine healing.

(2) In his early 20s, Dennis Balcombe was attending an independent Pentecostal church in Almonte outside Los Angeles, when the wife of the main preacher began delivering a mesage in tongues. A congregational member gave the interpretation aloud: the gist of it was that Dennis was going to be used in a great missionary work in Communist China. An American Jew who spoke Hebrew and just happened to be be present in the meeting confirmed that the message had been given in fluent Hebrew and that the interpretation (translation) was totally accurate.

But Dennis got derailed from his calling for a while. He was drafted and spent a year in Vietnam in 1969. During a week of R & R in Hong Kong, he attended a local Pentecostal church and someone prophesied that God was calling him to stay there after his military service. So he studied Cantonese and Mandarin Chinese there and then pioneered a Chinese church. He told his people to think of him as an egg--white on the outside and yellow on the inside!

Soon Dennis got permission to teach English in Communist China and used that privilege to bring in a hundred thousand Bibles there. Then in the 1980s, several Christian house church leaders wanted him to teach them about Spirit baptism and speaking in tongues. After a year of resistance, the Holy Spirit fell on many and they spoke in tongues. Dennis became the first white missionary in many decades to travel to inland China. It was dangeous work: sometimes he was moved in a coffin on a cart with wheels. Once the police interupted his meeting, but he hid in the coffin, and the cops never opened it. Other times he wore a face mask, a fur hat, and a thick, padded cotten coat. Other times still, he wore women's clothes.

There were regular dramatic healings, including many blind who received their sight. When Dennis laid his hands on people, they sometimes were so intoxicated with the Spirit that they couldn't sleep for days! Once filled with the Spirit, these new Christians couldn't stop themselves from boldly witnessing to others. Within a decade of his ministry there, one half to two thirds of the 80 million strong house church movement became Pentecostal or Charismatic!!! How crucial to Chinese church history was Dennis Balcombe's calling in a mesage in Hebrew tongues back in the late 1960s!

Source: David Aikman, "Jesus in Beijing," pp. 271-275

(3) A young female missionary in a remote village in Uganda became gravely ill, so ill that her parents in Saskatchewan, Canada, received a telegram that she was too sick to be moved the many miles of jungle trails to the nearest doctor and would likely die shortly. This need was brought before a prayer meeting at the parents' Pentecostal church in Saskatchewan. There was a message in tongues. A visiting African student stood up and proclaimed that the message was in Swahili, his native language. The message said that God had given the young woman a healing touch and she would soon be reunited with her parents. There was great rejoicing when this prophecy came true.

Most North American glossolalia is uttered either in private or in monolingual churches which lack the array of foreign-language speakers to verify glossolalia in other human languages. So the number of such cases must be considered indeterminate, despite researchers like Samarin.

Samarin is well educated linguist, who showed that glossolalia in Pentecostal charismatic churches are not a language of any kind. And, others have repeated his research proving him to be right. I posted a thread somewhere on it.

I stop reading when I saw the name Loren Cunningham because I heard the same story by him on tape years ago. In that edition, he did not speak in their language, but an angel popped in to preach in their language. It can not be both ways.
The tape was from Youth With A Mission too.

That group is well known for spiritual abuse and false prophecy,

Loren Cunningham, YWAM and False Prophesy
by B. B. in a letter dated 4 June 2001



Dear Sandy,

I have scoured what few records that are left of our time in the Philippines and also in New Zealand, and have found the date that I was called to Manila to meet Loren Cunningham. I will copy here the entries in my log from the Philippines, but the period of time during which I received the telegram from Lausanne and my trip to Wellington and subsequent occurrences will have to rely on memory.

"Sat. 25th [March 1972] put new fiberglass over damaged areas on keel & above port screw. Also patch more places on guard 2015 [time, 8:15 P.M.], Receive wire from E. Wood [Vice Pres. of the Mission we were with] 'Come immediately next plane important development. (sig.) Ernie Wood.' Will try to get on tomorrow's flight."

"Sun. 26th .... Fly to Manila on "Air Manila" & go to Wood's house where introduced to Loren Cunningham of Y.W.A.M.-- He told of their plan to have a ship capable of accommodating 100-150 people to be used as a mobile school of evangelism & E. Wood told him I was just the man to have as skipper ..... we discussed the need and cost, etc. and I told him that I would pray about it & let him know, but that I would not want to get involved unless sure it was God." ...

I do not have the date, but believe it was sometime after the beginning of February 1973 that I received a telegram from Loren Cunningham that originated in Lausanne, Switzerland. It told of the prophecy that had been received about the "Maori" and asked if I would go to Wellington and survey the ship for YWAM. I went down to Wellington and was allowed full access to the ship by the UnionSteamship Co. and spoke to the Chief Engineer and others who had knowledge of the "Maori."

My survey of the ship showed that she was in very good condition, but that for the purposes envisioned by YWAM as a far ranging vessel, there were several things that made her unsuitable.

Number one, was that she had a very small fuel capacity. She only ran between Wellington and Christchurch, New Zealand, and had no need of large tankage for that purpose. The cost of increasing the tankage so that she would be suitable for the proposed ministry would be prohibitive.

Another thing, was that the ship had virtually no freezer capacity, nor was the galley equipped with either the necessary cooking facilities nor the room to build such. As a day ferry, they did the cooking for passengers on shore, and just had warming capability.

I made my survey report listing all of the above, and sent it to Lausanne, with the recommendation that they look for another vessel. I have yet to get a response from YWAM.

In subsequent days, we heard that God had indeed confirmed that the "Maori" was the ship for YWAM. People began to arrive in N.Z. from overseas and some local folks also sold homes, left jobs or other ministries to join in this project. They asked for permission to go aboard the ship prior to the final payment, and the owners did allow them aboard, but with the stipulation that they were only to clean up, and that no changes were to be made structurally.

The allotted time for the final payment came and went, without provision of the funds. An extension was requested, and the owners graciously allowed it. Sometime during this time frame, it was common knowledge in the church community that YWAM had decided the money had been withheld because there was "sin in the camp." They settled on a pastor and his wife who had left their church to join the group, and they departed broken-hearted.

Of course the time extension also ran out, and YWAM lost the ship. Of course the people who had joined the group in N.Z. and had worked aboard the ship expecting to be part of the ministry, were devastated. As mentioned earlier, some had left jobs, sold homes, etc. And because the "prophecies" that had been given in England, the U.S.A. etc. were so definite that the "Maori" was God's ship for YWAM, when the ship was finally sent to the wrecking yard in Asia for scrap, not only were the Christians involved severely hurt, but the non-believers in N.Z. laughed those who had been deceived to scorn. The credibility of the Christian church in general was hurt severely among the unbelievers as well as many in the church.

In the evaluation of Cunningham and Rogers' Is That Really You, God? Hearing The Voice Of God by Rev. Greg Robertson, a quote from page 107 of that work appears on page 29 of Robertson's paper.......... "Page 107 'It was a simple story, really. Yes, God had told us to get a ship, and repeatedly He had confirmed His guidance using all the ways we had learned for hearing His voice. He used the Wise Men Principle; He used Scriptures which He seemed to lift off the pages for us; He used provision of money and people, and that inner conviction -- but we had failed in the way (emphasis in original) we had carried out His guidance. We had subtly turned from the Giver to the gift.' Apparently the one Loren Cunningham had asked to do the survey was not considered one of the 'Wise Men' in the said 'Principle'."

Of course all of the above is ... anecdotal; but it is also as accurate as I can make it.

There is one further thing that I have no first hand knowledge of, but which came to me as the truth, and that is that YWAM is supposed to have been offered a hospital ship for the sum of one dollar per year, with the stipulation that if war broke out that the ship would revert to the gov't., and that it must be returned in as good condition as it was received. If true, that ship would have been ideal for the proposed ministry. Perhaps someone else might have some knowledge of the truth or falsity of this.

Sandy, you may do as you wish with the above..... edit it as you see fit, as long as the gist is kept.

In Him,
B.B.



Deception In The Church has the original letter on file. This letter may not be copied or distributed without permission from the author and DITC. DITC emphasis is in bold.
Loren Cunningham, YWAM and False Prophesy

Bruchko: The Astonishing True Story of a 19-Year-Old American, His Capture by the Motilone Indians and His Adventures in Christianizing the Stone Age Tribe: Bruce Olson: 9781591859932: Books - Amazon.ca

Loren Cunningham testimony amazon tribe - Norton Safe Search

Youth With A Mission

Loren Cunningham, YWAM and False Prophesy

Youth With A Mission (YWAM) | Apologetics Index
 
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No, I am afraid you are exhibiting ignorance yet again.

BDAG Lexicon
ἰδιώτης, ου, ὁ (s. ἴδιος; Hdt.+; loanw. in rabb.).
② one who is not knowledgeable about some particular group’s experience, one not in the know, outsider. In 1 Cor 14:23f ἰδιῶται and ἄπιστοι together form a contrast to the Christian congregation. The ἰ. are neither similar to the ἄπιστοι (against Ltzm., Hdb. ad loc.), nor are they full-fledged Christians, but stand betw. the two groups, prob. as prospects for membership and are therefore relatively outsiders (ἰδιώτης as a t.t. of religious life e.g. OGI 90, 52 [196

So the idiotes in 1 Cor 14 were people who entered the meeting but were not familiar the gift of tongues and didn't realise that it was a spiritual gift but rather saw the foreign languages as a sign of judgement. Cessationists however are well versed on the things of the Spirit and know exactly what the gift of tongues is, as the Bible gives us a thorough description of the gift. The equivalent of an idiote today then would be someone who is ignorant of that description or willfully dismisses it and comes up with a definition of their own that is totally alien to scripture.

At least that is a source that makes sense in this context.

I understand that unlearned as applies to the apostles to simply mean laymen, who are not trained to be scribes and Pharisees.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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I think that you are limiting the use of tongues in a way that Paul did not intend. His teaching on tongues is limited for the Corinthians because he is seeking to correct the wrong use of tongues in that fellowship. He does not give corrective teaching to any of the other churches.

You contradict yourself and Paul when you say that Paul forbids the use of tongues, because he clearly tells the Corinthians not to forbid the speaking of tongues.

You say that Paul does not support the speaking of tongues outside of public church services, yet Paul says that he speaks in tongues more than them all, yet in the public church service he would rather prophesy than to speak ten thousand words in another tongue. So where did Paul speak in tongues "more than them all"? Because by his own words his speaking was not in public church services where he said he did not speak in tongues, preferring prophecy.

It does not take much intelligence to figure out that Paul spoke in tongues regularly away from public church services.

My daughter studied psychology at College. She told me that if a child has certain stories and ideas drummed into her all throughout her childhood, it is almost impossible to get her to believe otherwise when she grows up to adulthood. I found that quite interesting, because there are so many believers who have had Cessationist doctrine pumped into them over many years, and especially that tongues either was limited to the Apostolic Age, or must be spoken publicly accompanied by an interpretation, otherwise it is not genuine, that even though good logical arguments based on the right comprehension of Scripture, their prejudicial mind-set prevents them from seeing anything other what has been drummed into them by their Cessationist religious teachers.

Frankly, I don't really care that you don't believe in private praying in tongues. You see, I didn't have Cessationist teaching drummed into me during my formative years. Also, when I left the Charismatic church and decided to turn away from anything to do with it, one thing I couldn't do was to stop praying in tongues. The language just flowed out of me when I prayed, and it brought me into the presence of God. Also, I prayed in tongues one time in a church service, quietly; and a lady told me that God spoke to her through me in the Maori language words of encouragement that strengthened her faith during a difficult time in her life. That actual event disproves your theory.

Another event happened to a friend during a prayer meeting (which you say tongues should not be used), where he prayed in tongues which turned out to be the village dialect of a visiting brother from Ghana. My friend had never been to Ghana, and had absolutely no knowledge of the man's village dialect. The man told my friend what he said in tongues, and it was praise to God and encouragement from God to him. The miracle was that a man from the other side of the world comes to little old New Zealand and hears a simple New Zealand guy speak in his own village dialect things which God wanted him to hear.

I fear, like the Jewish Pharisees, who were so prejudiced that even though they witnessed a blind man being healed by Jesus and acknowledged that a miracle had taken place, they still refused to accept Jesus as their Messiah and plotted to kill Him. This is because they had religious stuff drummed into them all their lives and could not believe anything different.

So, if you want to limit the use of tongues to fit into with your particular religious ideas, that is your business, but as for me, I am going to continue to pray in tongues all the time and get the blessings that come from it. I enjoy it, love it, and wouldn't have it any other way. It makes prayer exciting and meaningful for me, and it brings me right into the presence of God and greatly increases my faith.

I have also witnessed my use of tongues in intercessory prayer bring a person from death's door to a stable medical condition. Also, a session praying in tongues brought me victory and a vision of Jesus on the throne high above my circumstances when I went through a difficult period of my life. The consequence of that was that I went from being a high school drop-out to gaining two College Mastorates over the succeeding years.

So, don't tell me that private prayer in tongues doesn't do anything for a believer. My experience tells me quite different!

Does your daughter still believe in Tantalus, santa claus and Easter Bunny?
 
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Waggles

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Acts 2 is the only description of the gift of tongues we have in scripture. It is clearly foreign human languages. The description is clear and definitive. Nowhere in scripture is the gift redefined as a heavenly or angelic language or anything else.
Completely wrong and untrue.
The Day of Pentecost when the crowds in Jerusalem heard the 120 in the upper room "we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God" - this is the first expression of the gift of interpretation of tongues to others...

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these work that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
1Corinthians 12:10-11

And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:4

26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
1Corinthians 14:26-29

This is exactly what we do in all our formal worship meetings in my Pentecostal Fellowship: tongues, interpretation to a max of three times.
Followed by no more than three prophets speaking.
We operate the voice gifts of the Holy Spirit in the Church.

39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
1Corinthians 14:39-40

Various or diverse kinds of tongues in the Church refers to those who can and do operate the gift of tongues in a church meeting - because when speaking in tongues it is most often very different than to their everyday prayer language of praying in tongues.
Praying in tongues is the only Bible evidence proof of being baptized in the Holy Ghost and ALL saints pray in tongues in accordance with these signs shall follow them that believe, and the book of Acts.

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels"
 
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I am not sure if I agree or disagree with you, but I see some exegetical errors in this post.



Joel 2:28Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
God Will Give His Spirit to All People
28 “After this,
I will pour out my Spirit on all kinds of people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will have dreams,
and your young men will see visions.

As you can see, tongues is not foretold there in context --- what is are prophesy, dreams and visions.



"5 When these followers heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 Then Paul laid his hands on them, and the Holy Spirit came on them. They began speaking different languages and prophesying."

From NET Bible, NET Bible Online
footnotes on highlighted above text.

16 tn The imperfect verb ἐλάλουν (elaloun) has been translated as an ingressive imperfect.

17 tn The imperfect verb ἐπροφήτευον (eprofhteuon) has been translated as an ingressive imperfect.

The Greek grammars the same for both sides of kai which in this context equates speaking different languages with prophesying. Look into exegetical not devotional Bible Commentaries and word studies.



44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came down on all those who were listening to his speech. 45 The Jewish believers who came with Peter were amazed that the Holy Spirit had been poured out as a gift also to people who were not Jews. 46 They heard them speaking different languages and praising God. Then Peter said, 47 “How can anyone object to these people being baptized in water? They have received the Holy Spirit the same as we did!” 48 So Peter told them to baptize Cornelius and his relatives and friends in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

If the Jews could not understand the Languages that were being spoken, then would know know it was in different languages and would not be impressed by gibberish like mystery religions do.

Matthew 6:7
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.




The purpose of the analogy in I cor 14 is to demonstrate it is in fact known human languages to others.

1 Corinthians 12

25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

The series of questions Paul asks can only be answered NO.

In I cor 13, Paul speaks in hypothetical language using exaggerations.


1 Corinthians 13King James Version (KJV)
13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.




Strong's Greek: 1100. γλῶσσα (glóssa) -- the tongue, a language

from the contexts of where speaking in tongues is used, one must employ all the texts involved to see that we are speaking of human languages that are unknown to the speaker.

Acts 2

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,


10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues
the wonderful works of God.

12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?





Is this reference online where everyone can read the full page for itself? because you are committing one of the well known word study fallacies that Carson speaks of in his book Exegetical Fallacies...



This is just an amazing combination of exegetical fallacies. Swordsman is right because he read I Cor 13 in context.



JOHANAN B. ZAKKAI - JewishEncyclopedia.com makes no such claim for him.

I did find such a claim here online for this rabbi, Google But there was no documentation given of any kind.

What is your primary source for this Rabbi?

Concerning Testament of Job, summary given here.

"
Job's Three Daughters.

After having distributed his property among his seven sons, Job gave to each of his three daughters, out of a hidden treasure-box, three-stringed girdles which God had given him that by their magic power he might be cured of his leprosy and be endowed with new physical and spiritual strength, so that he might forecast all the secrets of the future. As soon as his daughters put these girdles around their bodies they were transfigured, and, in the voices of angels, archangels (heavenly archons), and cherubim, sang hymns echoing the mysteries of heaven, all of which were written down by Nahor, the brother of Job.

Job, on seeing death approach, gave a cithara to his first daughter, Day ("Yemimah"), a censer to his second, Kassiah ("Perfume"), and a timbrel to his third, Amaltheas Horn ("Ḳeren ha-Puk"), that they might welcome the holy angels who came to take his soul; and while they played and glorified God in the holy dialect, He who sitteth upon the Great Chariot came and took the soul of Job away with a kiss and carried it eastward, where the Heavenly Throne is erected. Amid the singing of his daughters and the great mourning of the people, particularly the poor and the fatherless, his body was taken to the grave. The dirge is given at the close of the book (ch. xi-xii., ed. Kohler; xli.-lii., ed. James)."

JOB, TESTAMENT OF - JewishEncyclopedia.com

From the context, it is nothing like The Holy Spirit giving one the gift of languages in the Bible.

What is known that this proof section was added by cultists,

"A suggestion has been made that the Montanists, a second-century pneumatic-prophetic Christian group, may be responsible for the final section of the document (TJob 46-53), where praise of patient endurance gives way to the daughters of Job speaking the language of the angels and the Cherubim. In their contest with the Montanists, the orthodox Christians demanded biblical precedent for prophets who spoke in ecstasy (Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History V.17.1-3). Though proof is not possible, it is an attractive possibility to think that the TJob in its present form was furnished by the Montanists as a rigged pseudo-canonical precedent to legitimate their own ecstatic, and largely female, prophecy."

Testament of Job
Google







what about burning your body?



based on the errors you already did, I wonder who is right.



It is only a sign if it is in their own language like in Acts 2, not gibberish.




Paul also spoke in Hebrew. We are not told if he spoke Latin while in prison in Rome.



Romans 8 in context has to do with the HS praying a part from the believer, not though you. He uses words that can not even come out of your mouth.

I am curious about your mystry religion sources. I do not think Those of us with a Jewish background, nor the Jewish people in Jesus' day would be impressed by gibberish, since that would be associated with pagan religions.



IS one grieving the HS, if they do not seek to prophesy instead? or to gain any of the higher gifts?



I cor 14 is the context of discipline in the church thus the word all there would not mean everyone present is part of the all, just those who have a specific gift.

1 Corinthians 12:28-301599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
28 helpers, governors, diversity of tongues.

29 Are all Apostles? are all Prophets? are all teachers?

30 Are all doers of miracles? have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

To see if others misunderstand above, please answer this one question.

Are you an Apostle, Prophet, teacher-pastor, do miracles, have the gift of healing and gift of servant and gift of administrator and gift of speaking in languages of both men and angels(as you claim exists) and have the gift of interpreting?

If you lack even one of those gifts or offices, then you must answer NO which is the grammar of the Greek.



I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

thus your interpretation creates a contradiction with verse five in the same chapter.

This is just trotting out the old chestnuts that have been repeated time after time on the forum every time there has been a thread on tongues. These theories are copies of copies of copies of some 19th Century deadbeat religious teacher who did not understand the gift of tongues when it first appeared, and believed that the miraculous and the gifts of the Spirit were limited to the Apostolic Age. Because he was a respected Bible teacher of his time it was easy for the enemy to put a lying spirit in his mouth to try and discredit a genuine move of the Holy Spirit to restore the gifts of the Holy Spirit back into the Church. Those churches that accepted that the gifts of the Spirit, including tongues was part of the modern church, grew remarkably with their preaching of the gospel accompanied by a power of the Spirit never seen before to that extent in the Church since the time of Wesley and Whitefield, who, incidentally reported people speaking in what we now identify as tongues. Martin Luther, St Francis of Assisi, St Columba, St Patrick, all spoke in tongues. How about that? Are you going to say that because they had an experience that is contrary to your interpretation of Scripture that they were false teachers? The churches that believed the deadbeat grievous wolf of a religious teacher (I don't call him a Bible teacher, because he wasn't a genuine one), remained dead as a door nail.

If you look around you, churches that believe in the current use of the gifts of the Spirit, including tongues, are the ones that are saving souls in their thousands, while you church may be lucky to get one convert a month who might remain just a cold pew-sitter instead of being a vibrant Christ with a strong sense of mission. It is those who have embraced the gift of tongues who are the most passionate for Christ and who have the strongest sense of mission and the love for lost souls. The reason why people would leave your church and go to a church like that is because they want to be delivered from a "refrigerator" to go somewhere warmer.

You quote Scripture as a proof that your view is correct. The Pharisees of Jesus' time were the foremost Bible scholar, and yet they missed the fact that Jesus was their Messiah. Yet Jesus went right through the Old Testament with the two disciples at Emmaus showing where it talked about Him on every page. It seems that He showed those guys the things that the eminent Bible scholars of the time had not seen in the same Scriptures. This was because those Bible scholars were prejudiced, having hard and fast views on who their Messiah should be. Jesus didn't fit their pattern, so they rejected and killed Him. Jesus told them that they search the Scriptures in the hope of finding eternal life, but they would not come to Him to actually obtain it.

So, let the readers decide they want to believe you or not.
 
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Samarin is well educated linguist, who showed that glossolalia in Pentecostal charismatic churches are not a language of any kind. And, others have repeated his research proving him to be right. I posted a thread somewhere on it.

I stop reading when I saw the name Loren Cunningham because I heard the same story by him on tape years ago. In that edition, he did not speak in their language, but an angel popped in to preach in their language. It can not be both ways.
The tape was from Youth With A Mission too.

That group is well known for spiritual abuse and false prophecy,

Loren Cunningham, YWAM and False Prophesy

Bruchko: The Astonishing True Story of a 19-Year-Old American, His Capture by the Motilone Indians and His Adventures in Christianizing the Stone Age Tribe: Bruce Olson: 9781591859932: Books - Amazon.ca

Loren Cunningham testimony amazon tribe - Norton Safe Search

Youth With A Mission

Loren Cunningham, YWAM and False Prophesy

Youth With A Mission (YWAM) | Apologetics Index
Because God is wiser than we are, He knows that it is not appropriate for His gifts to be examined and evaluated by secular scientists. The fact that the linguist heard just meaningless babble is because he merely heard what God wanted him to hear. God does not believe in casting His pearls before swine. To demonstrate tongues for the purpose of scientific examination is a misuse of it, and so the Holy Spirit will withdraw and the person would be speaking meaningless drivel because he would not be praying or worshiping God in what he is speaking. So it would have been the Holy Spirit Himself making it appear to the linguist that tongues is not genuine, while keeping the genuine speaking confined to the genuine believers whose desire is only to worship God. So your argument goes down like a lead zeppelin on that point.

As far as Loren Cunningham, I know many good people in YWAM, and they have won more lost souls for Christ than your crowd will ever win. I believe that the negative stuff about him and YWAM comes out of the jealous and envy of dead churches that do not get the results that YWAM have achieved. No person or organisation is perfect. In all my 50 years of being associated with Charismatic churches and having personal friends in YWAM, I have never heard of any concerns of spiritual abuse and false prophecy. Not from those who are well-experienced in the prophetic. However, we do not have full knowledge about the things of God and Paul himself says that we prophesy "in part", which means that any prophecy contains only part of the full truth and therefore each prophecy must be judged by men experienced in the things of the Spirit. But any judgments from cessationist deadbeats can stick their judgments where the sun don't shine where they are worthless.

I would suspect that the articles you link to are written by jealous, envious, powerless deadbeats who have nothing better to do than to run down successful organisations and people. They are trying to take motes out of the eyes of others when they have dirty great logs in their own. These people are nothing but religious hypocrites influenced by religious lies and their own false doctrine.
 
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swordsman1

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That was a good post Oscar, though it was probably a bit tame!!

When I came to the Lord as a teenager it was in a cessationist environment, though from memory I’m not sure if I ever came across that particular word as I suspect most within my fairly wide circle of association were simply this way for no other reason than it was “the way it was”. This was prior to the Internet and Satellite services so for many who lived even within a large metropolis it was very easy to uncritically accept the status quo so to speak.

For me, as I began to read the Bible I started to notice a disparity with what I was seeing around me with the church scene here in Melbourne as against that of the written record of the early Church. Within only months of my conversion, I quickly found myself heavily involved within the cessationist world with Youth for Christ and with a very active Christian Camp outside of our city; what I began to notice was a general disconnect with many youth (and probably adults) to the basics of the Gospel message, where the victorious Christian life was not something we seemed to speak proudly of, where for most part we relied on the stores of our missionaries to keep the spark going.

Once I left school and had my own finances along with a car which helped me to access the only Christian bookstore in our city, I then began to realise that I was in the middle of the worldwide Charismatic Renewal where I was reading book after book about what was happening in the world around me, which I quickly realised related more to what I was reading in the Scriptures.

So from what I have seen over the years, there are certainly ‘ministries’ out there that are probably little more than wolves-in-sheeps clothing where they seem to be hellbent on undermining the Person and Ministry of the Holy Spirit and for that matter with the Fullness of the Ministry of the Father and Son as well; but there are also the majority who for probably no other reason were and are just as I was, where our human frailty and shortcomings simply allow us to accept the humanist status-quo that is so prevalent within many of our churches.

So even though there are 'ministries' out there that reflect more the attitude of the Sadducees, I would say that for most of those who are still within the cessationist worldview, that this has come around not so much from a conscious decision but that they have simply accepted the status-quo where they in most part uncritically take on what is around them.

Since the late 1970's there has risen a new component of the traditional Evangelical world, where this very sizable group which is known as those who are "open-but-cautious" are not so much experientially Continuist but their theology has them being theologically Continuist. Now I doubt if many of them could present a well constructed Full Gospel theology, but either they or their leaders have come to the realisation that cessastionism is a legacy worldview that cannot be supported from within the Scriptures, but for whatever reason their daily walk see's their ministry as being the way it has been for countless decades, but where they are still open to the Ministry of the Holy Spirit within their lives, just as we Pentecostals are.

I would be inclined to say that the cessationist worldview, which is of course the natural position of the atheist and the liberal church goer, is probably more the domain of the left-wing and fundamentalist elements within the Evangelical world; whereas the majority of enlightened Evangelicals are at least accepting of the Full Gospel message.

Instead of spewing out a lengthy diatribe of your personal opinions about cessationists, how about trying to exegetically refute the cessationist viewpoints in this thread, or supplying convincing proofs of the continuist alternative? So far you have failed to do either.
 
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swordsman1

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Being an Aussie, you will appreciate that while Kiwis call a spade a spade, Aussies are more forthright about it! So I can understand that my comments might have been a bit tamer than you might prefer. I did PM a friend on the forum and I suggested what an Aussie might say about false cessationist doctrine, and I could not repeat it on the public forum! I was reading the account of a battle in the Western Desert during world war 2. There was a wounded German soldier caught in the barbed wire and he "was making a lot of noise". An Australian soldier with his rifle and bayonet was dancing around him, calling out, "What shall I do with this b*gg*r?" A voice from the Australian lines called out, "Stick it up his ar*e and get on with it!" There is no one in the world outside of Australia who would say it that way! Maybe we should say the same about cessationist doctrine - that they can stick it up their ar*e!. As a Kiwi, I would say that there is a black hole in the middle of his church auditorium where the sun don't shine and they can stick it in there!

Ditto.
 
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swordsman1

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Because God is wiser than we are, He knows that it is not appropriate for His gifts to be examined and evaluated by secular scientists.

No, God would be quite happy to invite scrutiny of tongues by unbelievers to prove it was genuinely from Him. Functioning as a confirming sign is a perfectly biblical purpose of tongues (Mark 16:17). That is what happened at Pentecost when the unbelievers heard the disciples speaking in tongues. They recognized the languages spoken and came to the conclusion a miracle was taking place and were convinced that God was with them.

The fact that the linguist heard just meaningless babble is because he merely heard what God wanted him to hear. God does not believe in casting His pearls before swine. To demonstrate tongues for the purpose of scientific examination is a misuse of it, and so the Holy Spirit will withdraw and the person would be speaking meaningless drivel because he would not be praying or worshiping God in what he is speaking. So it would have been the Holy Spirit Himself making it appear to the linguist that tongues is not genuine, while keeping the genuine speaking confined to the genuine believers whose desire is only to worship God. So your argument goes down like a lead zeppelin on that point.

Really? So during a charismatic service the tongues speaking is a linguistically identifiable language, but as soon as a linguist is present the tongue speaking suddenly changes to fake gibberish tongues instead? Is this a widely known fact or an idea you have just come up with? Do they notice this change in language or does it sound exactly the same as before? What about when the service is recorded by a fellow believer instead, does the tongue speaking change to gibberish then? And what if that recording is then placed on YouTube for anyone to view, as many are?
 
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No, God would be quite happy to invite scrutiny of tongues by unbelievers to prove it was genuinely from Him. Functioning as a confirming sign is a perfectly biblical purpose of tongues (Mark 16:17). That is what happened at Pentecost when the unbelievers heard the disciples speaking in tongues. They recognized the languages spoken and came to the conclusion a miracle was taking place and were convinced that God was with them.



Really? So during a charismatic service the tongues speaking is a linguistically identifiable language, but as soon as a linguist is present the tongue speaking suddenly changes to fake gibberish tongues instead? Is this a widely known fact or an idea you have just come up with? Do they notice this change in language or does it sound exactly the same as before? What about when the service is recorded by a fellow believer instead, does the tongue speaking change to gibberish then? And what if that recording is then placed on YouTube for anyone to view, as many are?

Easy there big fellow . I kinda understand that some folks even Christians are afraid of gifts of the Spirit , they are peculiar and unique indeed . If you've ever been in deep prayer when you enter the presence of God and began to groan from within or moan , that is the same Spirit .. When your church has the presence of the Spirit so intense and you can detect it even like the hair standing up on the back of your neck , it is the same Spirit .. Oscar knows what he's talking about .. I've spoke in tongues but I don't speak in tongues during normal prayers .. My wife has never spoke in tongues .. But here's my thing .. I've found that since I've got saved with all the people , preachers included who've told me what I was reading straight from the Word was not true anymore I just say uh huh OK and go on .. I put my limits on people, not God and his Word ..
Shutting doors to Gods Word sets your own limits and boundaries on what you will ever see from God normally .. God wants us to seek him, it is not a cheap thing ... I believe that's why many highly educated never "get it" .. They reach a point where they say "who can teach me ? I'm not much but I've spent years believing every word that comes out of Gods mouth, not understanding it all but believing it, most times , with patience, believing and faith turns into understanding if we faint not . As an uneducated person and a very poor reader, Jesus has given me a great testimony of even some things I refuse to share with others, only maybe one or two who has like testimony of incredible acts of God .. I guess what I'm saying is that there's plenty out in the world to fix first . One scripture that remains plastered in my mind is that there are certain signs that follow true believers .. Peace Bro ..
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Completely wrong and untrue.
The Day of Pentecost when the crowds in Jerusalem heard the 120 in the upper room "we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God" - this is the first expression of the gift of interpretation of tongues to others...

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these work that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
1Corinthians 12:10-11

And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:4

26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
1Corinthians 14:26-29

This is exactly what we do in all our formal worship meetings in my Pentecostal Fellowship: tongues, interpretation to a max of three times.
Followed by no more than three prophets speaking.
We operate the voice gifts of the Holy Spirit in the Church.

39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
1Corinthians 14:39-40

Various or diverse kinds of tongues in the Church refers to those who can and do operate the gift of tongues in a church meeting - because when speaking in tongues it is most often very different than to their everyday prayer language of praying in tongues.
Praying in tongues is the only Bible evidence proof of being baptized in the Holy Ghost and ALL saints pray in tongues in accordance with these signs shall follow them that believe, and the book of Acts.

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels"

Do your prophets speak one at at time?
 
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Because God is wiser than we are, He knows that it is not appropriate for His gifts to be examined and evaluated by secular scientists.

God often tells people to examine his works. Just off the top of my head:

Jesus told Thomas to feel the wounds in his wrists and side.

When Jesus healed the blind man, Jesus told him to go to the Temple to be examined.

God says, things like Let us reason together.


As far as Loren Cunningham, I know many good people in YWAM, and they have won more lost souls for Christ than your crowd will ever win.

In my Crowd it is God that saves people, not us.

Also, I counseled many people who left YWAM and Jesus because of the abuses there. And, it was Jesus through me that brought them back to Jesus.

Scripture plainly says God gives the harvest.

What is the financial transparency of YWAM?

Please explain
Matthew J. Murray?


You may want to explain why Googling "ywam bad experience" brings up
About 341,000 results in (0.77 seconds) ???

You may want to explain why Googling "ywam bad reputation" brings up About 28,600 results (0.93 seconds) ???

You may want to explain why Googling "ywam complaints" brings up About 71,900 results (1.01 seconds) ???


Cult Help and Information - Concerns After Investigation by Rick Ross

If I had to bet, I bet God has called more people to him through Billy Grahm or the Pope.

"
My heart goes out to the families of those in Denver, both at New Life and YWAM Arvada. The shooter, Matthew Murray, was definitely mentally ill, however, it seems his treatment at YWAM exacerbated his illness.

There is a very large network of former YWAMers all over the globe who have received horrible spiritual and emotional abuse from YWAM, at numerous different bases. I also know many who have had good experiences in their DTS, but there are so many people coming out of the woodwork telling about how YWAM destroyed their lives. Sad, but true.

My husband and I can tell you firsthand of the twisted abuse we received in just this year. We are still trying to recover from the ordeal and God has been so good to us and taken care of us.

I have been trying to sort out all that we have experienced and I found a wealth of information for those who have been in YWAM and faced abuse. I found this list (and many books by former cult-members) and just reading this list gives me chills. This has been my experience with YWAM in every base I have worked with…"Is YWAM a Cult?

I believe that the negative stuff about him and YWAM comes out of the jealous and envy of dead churches that do not get the results that YWAM have achieved.

ROFL, Many of those God has blessed with many coming to Jesus and growing to maturity in Christ. I have met and spoken with many of them. There is no jealousy, nor envy and their churches are very much alive.

A lot of the negative stuff comes from those who left YWAM. Many people who leave abusive groups are shunned as a boundary to keep those still there from seeing the truth of their situation.

Googling "ywam shunning" brings up About 18,700 results (0.40 seconds) !!!!!

No person or organisation is perfect. In all my 50 years of being associated with Charismatic churches and having personal friends in YWAM, I have never heard of any concerns of spiritual abuse and false prophecy.

We agree that No person or organisation is perfect!!!!
But, you have turned them into an idol because you refuse to look at the truth that he is a false prophet --- some will call it Pastor Worship.

Well, I posted one of the false prophecies. And, it only takes one to be a false prophet. True Prophets bat one hundred percent.

But any judgments from cessationist deadbeats can stick their judgments where the sun don't shine where they are worthless.

That is very Christian of you.

Gee, one I am neither pentecostal, Charismatic nor a cessationist. I believe Spiritual Gifts are for today, But what I see in US and Churches in developed nations does not line up with the Biblical Model of Acts 2 --- being speaking in human languages that are unknown to the speaker.

In fact, God has had me speak in Missionary Languages many times where the other person came to Jesus and were martyred because they were Muslims in Muslim contexts.

And, I have meet many "cessationist deadbeats" as you so lovingly call them who have brought thousands to the Lord and helpped them mature in Christ. Ward Presyterian for example in Detroit area, has started many churches with new converts that ranges in the tens of thousands without the swinging back door of YWAM.

They are trying to take motes out of the eyes of others when they have dirty great logs in their own. These people are nothing but religious hypocrites influenced by religious lies and their own false doctrine.

Prove it, it is you who are being an accuser of the brothers, not them. Many of them have first hand experience with YWAM or investigated.
 
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Do your prophets speak one at at time?
Yes. All things are done decently and in order.
Tongues followed by interpretation to a max of three times.
Then to a max of three times the gift of prophecy.
Spoken one at a time individually.

Operating the voice gifts is done as a distinct session in itself, and then follows the prayer line and people coming out for prayer with the elders and pastors.
 
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Instead of spewing out a lengthy diatribe of your personal opinions about cessationists, how about trying to exegetically refute the cessationist viewpoints in this thread, or supplying convincing proofs of the continuist alternative? So far you have failed to do either.
Some cessationists are actually blaspheming the Holy Spirit in their accusations that modern tongues speakers are inspired by the devil. Even the implication borders on the blasphemy. If Pentecostals and Charismatics are accused of not being inspired by the Holy Spirit, even though the devil is not mentioned, it is still blasphemy.

I and others have given you convincing proofs but you refuse to listen because of your prejudice against modern tongues. I have also given you the psychological reasons for that as well. You are determined not to believe in it no matter what proofs are given to you.

There are a lot of readers on this forum who are not prejudiced and who are genuinely seeking answers about it. I will leave them to decide for themselves.
 
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No, God would be quite happy to invite scrutiny of tongues by unbelievers to prove it was genuinely from Him. Functioning as a confirming sign is a perfectly biblical purpose of tongues (Mark 16:17). That is what happened at Pentecost when the unbelievers heard the disciples speaking in tongues. They recognized the languages spoken and came to the conclusion a miracle was taking place and were convinced that God was with them.



Really? So during a charismatic service the tongues speaking is a linguistically identifiable language, but as soon as a linguist is present the tongue speaking suddenly changes to fake gibberish tongues instead? Is this a widely known fact or an idea you have just come up with? Do they notice this change in language or does it sound exactly the same as before? What about when the service is recorded by a fellow believer instead, does the tongue speaking change to gibberish then? And what if that recording is then placed on YouTube for anyone to view, as many are?

What I said was that the tongues in themselves would have been genuine, but the Holy Spirit would make sure that what the unbelieving linguist would be hearing would not be the genuine ones but would be changed to gibberish in his ears. I suspect the Holy Spirit would have done the same to you whenever you have heard tongues because He knows that you are hardened in your unbelief about it.
 
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