AlexDTX

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Hello, I'm a Catholic (As my username implies) and I thought like to discuss my biggest issue with Protestantism, it's the phrase "Jesus suffered and died on the cross so that we don't have to suffer."
But Our Lord said:
"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." -Matthew 16:24 DRV

What's more Saint Paul says:
"Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church" -Colossians 1:24 DRV
And:
"I BESEECH you therefore, brethren, by the mercy of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing unto God, your reasonable service." -Romans 12:1 DRV This refers specifically to redemptive (AKA "Offering it up") in which we unite our own little sufferings with Christ's sacrifice on the Cross, that He may mediate between The Father and us.

We Catholics, except for people who reached a really high degree of holiness, do not actively seek suffering, but when it arises, we take it as an opportunity to unite with Our Lord on the cross. The belief that "Christ suffered so that we don't have to," quite frankly means that Protestants don't preach Christ crucified as Saint Paul commands us to, The Lord's sacrifice on the cross becomes just something that happened almost 2000 years ago, not something that one's entire life revolves around.

So tell me Protestants how is the cross relevant for you? And how do you sense out of suffering? What do you do when suffering arises?
Bearing our cross refers to suffering persecution. Persecution comes in minor and major forms. In minor forms we see it in the work place as hostility is brought to us unjustly because our lives in Christ cause others to feel convicted. In a major form it is various degree of martyrdom.

Self denial is the foundation of Christian discipleship. Without it there is no way the love of God can flow through us to others. Self denial is not suffering, unless one considers the rejection of the flesh as suffering, but that is not a biblical interpretation.

Turning the other cheek might be thought of as a form of suffering, but I believe Jesus meant walk away from the violence without fighting back.

I don't believe, however, that there is any pleasure in God in our deliberately causing ourselves suffering as a means to get closer to God.
 
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greenguzzi

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Most of us are catholics, just not Roman Catholics.
I've been a non-Roman Christian for over 30 years now. I've attended many "protestant" denominations and some various flavours of Anglicanism ones too. I've never heard this concept of "Jesus suffered and died on the cross so that we don't have to suffer." I reckon whoever told you this didn't know what they were talking about.
There is the concept of Substitutionary Atonement, which I reckon is the closest idea to what you think we believe. But that is not unique to non-Roman Catholics. It is part of the Roman Catholic "satisfaction theory of atonement" doctrine.
 
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tz620q

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However, I believe that the most important aspect of our Christian walk is that we show love and compassion to the less fortunate and not how we look at our own suffering.

Totally agree; but I got a chuckle out of your use of the word compassion, since it's Latin source com-pati means "to suffer together" or "to suffer with".
 
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Tigger45

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I think what is being discussed here comes under the distinction between the theology of the cross and the theology of glory. I hear the theology of glory coming from big time evangelists like Joseph Prince, Joice myers and many others. The strongest emphasis coming from the WoF camp but being that these preachers are so well marketed that it's had it's effects to one degree or another in other evangelical groups.
 
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JoeP222w

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my biggest issue with Protestantism, it's the phrase "Jesus suffered and died on the cross so that we don't have to suffer."

Really bad generalization if you are saying that all of Protestantism teaches this.

So tell me Protestants how is the cross relevant for you?

It is very relevant. However, where it is different from Roman Catholic dogma is that it is complete when Jesus said, "It is finished". Protestants reject that the sacrifice of the cross is a continual event that has to re-presented every day in the Mass, showing that Rome has a message that cannot perfect the individual.

And how do you sense out of suffering?

There are many reasons for suffering:

1. We live in a sin-cursed world and suffering is the normal consequence of man's rebellion to God.
2. God uses suffering to teach us His truth and develop complete reliance on Him.
3. God uses suffering to teach us compassion and sympathy for others.
4. God uses our suffering to change others.
5. God may not reveal to us the reasons for suffering.

What do you do when suffering arises?

By God's grace, look unto Christ for strength, endurance and steadfastness, to believe and trust that He is right there with me.
 
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Look Up

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So tell me Protestants how is the cross relevant for you? And how do you sense out of suffering? What do you do when suffering arises?

Westminster Confession of Faith

Chapter 26, Of the Communion of Saints

"1. All saints, that are united to Jesus Christ their Head, by his Spirit, and by faith, have fellowship with him in his graces, sufferings, death, resurrection, and glory: and, being united to one another in love, [etc.]"

Augsburg Confession

Article XX: Of Good Works.

"For without faith human nature can in no wise do the works of the First or of the Second Commandment. Without faith it does not call upon God, nor expect anything from God, nor bear the cross ..."

Article XXVI: Of the Distinction of Meats.

"... Here our adversaries object that our teachers are opposed to discipline and mortification of the flesh, as Jovinian. But the contrary may be learned from the writings of our teachers. For they have always taught concerning the cross that it behooves Christians to bear afflictions. This is the true, earnest, and unfeigned mortification, to wit, to be exercised with divers afflictions, and to be crucified with Christ."

Canons of Dordt

Fifth Main Point of Doctrine
The Perseverance of the Saints

Article 12: This Assurance as an Incentive to Godliness

"This assurance of perseverance, however, so far from making true believers proud and carnally self-assured, is rather the true root of humility, of childlike respect, of genuine godliness, of endurance in every conflict, of fervent prayers, of steadfastness in crossbearing and in confessing the truth, and of well-founded joy in God."

Second Helvetic Confession

CHAPTER XVII
Of The Catholic and Holy Church of God, and of The One Only Head of The Church

"... Because they acknowledge Christ the only head and foundation of the Church, and, resting on him, daily renew themselves by repentance, and patiently bear the cross laid upon them."
 
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Leevo

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Yes I've heard one Protestant say this in the context of an argument against purgatory,
But I've heard many Protestants say this, and as far as I can remember the context was, or at the very least seemed to be in the context of suffering in general. It could be that they just weren't clear when they were talking about suffering.
However my arguments about Protestantism's lack of emphasis on the crucifixion and the problems that cause still stands.

Protestants emphasize the crucifixion, yes that is true. But we also emphasize the resurrection!

I have also heard the phrase "Jesus suffered so we don't have to" but your misinterpreting what we mean by that. It isn't that we mean that we won't have our own crosses to bear, but rather we mean that if we got what we deserved, we would be up on that cross bearing the punishment for our sins and sent to Hell. Jesus took it upon himself in our stead, so we don't have to have that done unto us.
 
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Albion

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Protestants emphasize the crucifixion, yes that is true. But we also emphasize the resurrection!
They all emphasize both, and no church discounts the importance of either event. But it could be argued that Protestants place a bit more emphasis upon the crucifixion than do Catholics for the reason that Salvation by Faith (a key principle of the Protestant Reformation) is linked to the atoning quality of Christ's sacrifice in particular.
 
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rockytopva

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But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; - 1 Corinthians 1:23
For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.- 1 Corinthians 2:2

Welcome to CF! God forbid that we preach not Christ crucified!
 
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Leevo

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They all emphasize both, and no church discounts the importance of either event. But it could be argued that Protestants place a bit more emphasis upon the crucifixion than do Catholics for the reason that Salvation by Faith (a key principle of the Protestant Reformation) is linked to the atoning quality of Christ's sacrifice in particular.

I know, I was just kind of taking a jab. ;)

I would say depending on the denomination that argument could be made. I have certainly seen varying degrees of emphasis placed depending on where I was.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Hello, I'm a Catholic (As my username implies) and I thought like to discuss my biggest issue with Protestantism, it's the phrase "Jesus suffered and died on the cross so that we don't have to suffer."
But Our Lord said:
"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." -Matthew 16:24 DRV

What's more Saint Paul says:
"Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church" -Colossians 1:24 DRV
And:
"I BESEECH you therefore, brethren, by the mercy of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing unto God, your reasonable service." -Romans 12:1 DRV This refers specifically to redemptive (AKA "Offering it up") in which we unite our own little sufferings with Christ's sacrifice on the Cross, that He may mediate between The Father and us.

We Catholics, except for people who reached a really high degree of holiness, do not actively seek suffering, but when it arises, we take it as an opportunity to unite with Our Lord on the cross. The belief that "Christ suffered so that we don't have to," quite frankly means that Protestants don't preach Christ crucified as Saint Paul commands us to, The Lord's sacrifice on the cross becomes just something that happened almost 2000 years ago, not something that one's entire life revolves around.

So tell me Protestants how is the cross relevant for you? And how do you sense out of suffering? What do you do when suffering arises?
I'm wondering what has been accomplished of what you originally intended in this thread so far?
 
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Thursday

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""Hello, I'm a Catholic (As my username implies) and I thought like to discuss my biggest issue with Protestantism, it's the phrase "Jesus suffered and died on the cross so that we don't have to suffer.""

This suppering is pointing to eternal suffering in the Lake of fire.. It is not pointing to suffering in this world.. For Christians Jesus death was atonement for the sins of all those who Believe Jesus and believe that His atonement pays the penalty for their sins..

You basic foundational mistake is to totally misinterpret Christians to be saying that Jesus takes away suffering on this world in this life.. from this false foundation you have built a strawman that coes not in truth exist..


Romans 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
 
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Thursday

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Protestants emphasize the crucifixion, yes that is true. But we also emphasize the resurrection!

I have also heard the phrase "Jesus suffered so we don't have to" but your misinterpreting what we mean by that. It isn't that we mean that we won't have our own crosses to bear, but rather we mean that if we got what we deserved, we would be up on that cross bearing the punishment for our sins and sent to Hell. Jesus took it upon himself in our stead, so we don't have to have that done unto us.

Romans 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Philippians 3:10
I want to know Christ and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to Him in His death,

Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body, which is the church.

2 Timothy 2:12
if we endure, we will also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He will also deny us;
 
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Tangible

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Hello, I'm a Catholic (As my username implies) and I thought like to discuss my biggest issue with Protestantism, it's the phrase "Jesus suffered and died on the cross so that we don't have to suffer."
But Our Lord said:
"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." -Matthew 16:24 DRV

What's more Saint Paul says:
"Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church" -Colossians 1:24 DRV
And:
"I BESEECH you therefore, brethren, by the mercy of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing unto God, your reasonable service." -Romans 12:1 DRV This refers specifically to redemptive (AKA "Offering it up") in which we unite our own little sufferings with Christ's sacrifice on the Cross, that He may mediate between The Father and us.

We Catholics, except for people who reached a really high degree of holiness, do not actively seek suffering, but when it arises, we take it as an opportunity to unite with Our Lord on the cross. The belief that "Christ suffered so that we don't have to," quite frankly means that Protestants don't preach Christ crucified as Saint Paul commands us to, The Lord's sacrifice on the cross becomes just something that happened almost 2000 years ago, not something that one's entire life revolves around.

So tell me Protestants how is the cross relevant for you? And how do you sense out of suffering? What do you do when suffering arises?
The Confessional Lutheran churches have a very robust theology of suffering. I can't imagine any Lutheran that is knowledgeable of their own theology ever making a statement implying that we don't have to suffer.

Lutherans have a very well developed theological distinction between "theologies of glory" versus the Theology (or better, Spirituality) of the Cross. I would encourage you to explore what this is all about.

Theologia Crucis: Martin Luther's Theology of the Cross | Lutheran Layman

As the Lutheran reformers often stated, crux sola nostra theologia est.
 
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SteveIndy

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Hello, I'm a Catholic (As my username implies) and I thought like to discuss my biggest issue with Protestantism, it's the phrase "Jesus suffered and died on the cross so that we don't have to suffer."
But Our Lord said:
"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." -Matthew 16:24 DRV

What's more Saint Paul says:
"Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church" -Colossians 1:24 DRV
And:
"I BESEECH you therefore, brethren, by the mercy of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing unto God, your reasonable service." -Romans 12:1 DRV This refers specifically to redemptive (AKA "Offering it up") in which we unite our own little sufferings with Christ's sacrifice on the Cross, that He may mediate between The Father and us.

We Catholics, except for people who reached a really high degree of holiness, do not actively seek suffering, but when it arises, we take it as an opportunity to unite with Our Lord on the cross. The belief that "Christ suffered so that we don't have to," quite frankly means that Protestants don't preach Christ crucified as Saint Paul commands us to, The Lord's sacrifice on the cross becomes just something that happened almost 2000 years ago, not something that one's entire life revolves around.

So tell me Protestants how is the cross relevant for you? And how do you sense out of suffering? What do you do when suffering arises?

You ask a good question. In what sense do we accept the suffering of Jesus on our behalf? "Jesus suffered and died on the cross so that we don't have to suffer." There is a suffering that we as human beings must at any cost avoid. The suffering I allude to is a suffering that we were all condemned to without a remedy, until Christ came. With the coming of Christ the suffering of eternal Hell fire can now be avoided.

But, there is another kind of suffering that requires that we follow Christ in His enduring the life of a child of God on planet earth. To complete the mission every Christian has been given will require suffering. Paul’s message to Timothy was, “If you live righteously (Timothy) you will suffer persecution.” Jesus confirmed this with His words, “If they hated Me they will hate you.”

So, when Protestants say that Christ has taken their suffering onto Himself this is what they mean. It is not that suffering mysteriously goes away, because we all know that isn’t the case; and on the contrary, the bearing of His cross takes much endurance and steadfastness. The Christian life is a life of dying daily. Let us all enter heaven scared and battered, but let it be for righteousness sake.

Christ suffered ONCE for sin on our behalf so that we could be saved from eternal suffering.
 
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david.d

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Hello, I'm a Catholic (As my username implies) and I thought like to discuss my biggest issue with Protestantism, it's the phrase "Jesus suffered and died on the cross so that we don't have to suffer."
But Our Lord said:
"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." -Matthew 16:24 DRV

What's more Saint Paul says:
"Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church" -Colossians 1:24 DRV
And:
"I BESEECH you therefore, brethren, by the mercy of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing unto God, your reasonable service." -Romans 12:1 DRV This refers specifically to redemptive (AKA "Offering it up") in which we unite our own little sufferings with Christ's sacrifice on the Cross, that He may mediate between The Father and us.

We Catholics, except for people who reached a really high degree of holiness, do not actively seek suffering, but when it arises, we take it as an opportunity to unite with Our Lord on the cross. The belief that "Christ suffered so that we don't have to," quite frankly means that Protestants don't preach Christ crucified as Saint Paul commands us to, The Lord's sacrifice on the cross becomes just something that happened almost 2000 years ago, not something that one's entire life revolves around.

So tell me Protestants how is the cross relevant for you? And how do you sense out of suffering? What do you do when suffering arises?
I've attended many different types of churches and I can't say I've been to one that didn't preach the crucifixion. They don't all follow the same doctrines, so I'm not going to speak for them individually, but I would say the majority is speaking to suffering in the afterlife, not being without suffering in this life. I would go so far as to say a Christian without suffering is lukewarm, not holy. If God only puts on us what He knows we can handle and he's not putting anything on us, then that should be a wake up call more than a feeling of accomplishment.
 
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Ron Gurley

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"Does your denomination preach Christ-crucified?

aka

Do Protestants believe in "substitutionary atonement"
(Jesus the God-Man died FOR / in place of ALL Mankind FOR ALL sins FOR ALL time)

versus

The many RCC sacraments dealing with SIN (all but Holy Orders / Marriage),...doctrines of works for salvation and sanctification...Contrary to John 3 + Ephesians 2
Is not required suffering for holiness a "work"??

ATONEMENT ~= RECONCILIATION (all NASB)

Romans 5:10
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God THROUGH the death of His Son,
much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved (SANCTIFIED) by His life.

2 Corinthians 5:18
Now all these things are from God,
who reconciled us to Himself THROUGH Christ and
gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

Colossians 1:22
yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death,
in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—

SUBSTITUTION ~ Jesus died FOR you..in your place

1 Pete 2
18 For Christ also died FOR sins once FOR all,
the just (Jesus) for the unjust (Man),
so that He might bring us to God, (RECONCILIATION)
having been put to death in the flesh, (CRUCIFIXION)
but made alive in the spirit; (RESURRECTION + APPEARANCES + ASCENSION)

Romans 5:6,8
For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died FOR the ungodly....
But God demonstrates His own love toward us,
in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died FOR us.

1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that
Christ died FOR our sins according to the Scriptures,

My Christ has finished His complete work and is off the horrible Cross. He has RISEN!
Your Christ is depicted in your churches as remaining on the cross...suffering and bleeding.


Hebrews 10:19 [ A New and Living Way / Covenantt ]
Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place (God's presence) by the blood of Jesus,

1 John 1:7
but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another,
and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—
 
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Leevo

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Romans 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Philippians 3:10
I want to know Christ and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to Him in His death,

Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body, which is the church.

2 Timothy 2:12
if we endure, we will also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He will also deny us;

That is a great machine gun hermeneutic. What is your point with it?
 
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The cross means that I will never have to suffer as a punishment for sins. All of my suffering, thanks to Jesus, is meant by God and used by God to refine my character and conform me to the image of Christ. Suffering is now sent into my life by God as an expression of his love rather than his wrath.

Suffering is, in part, a result of sin. But it is also actively sent into my life by God in order to awaken me to spiritual realities and goad me toward repentance. It is also used of God to burn away the dross of remaining sin in my life and purify me.

When suffering arises I attempt to thank God in the midst of it and to bear it with as much grace and obedience as I can. I attempt to use suffering as an opportunity to grow in grace which is readily available in times of suffering.
 
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