The "Rapture Hoax" Theory

Biblewriter · Jul 27, 2016

This discussion went "off the rails" a long way back, but the engine keeps puffing.

jerry kelso · Jul 27, 2016

Biblewriter said:
This discussion went "off the rails" a long way back, but the engine keeps puffing.

biblewriter,

I'm trying to get him to switch tracks and start another post with obviously one of his favorite targets to bible thump. Come on baberean2 puff on to one of your favorite subjects and we will talk about it. LOL. Puff Puff!
If he doesn't start it I guess I will have to if I get the time tomorrow. You are free to hop on the track and follow us and comment. LOL See you. Jerry Kelso

BABerean2 · Jul 29, 2016

jerry kelso said:
It is plain that the original argument was whether or not an old covenant jew could not live the whole law perfectly and I showed the scriptures and you denied it and brought in other things that didn't line up with the context or the time factor.

No Jerry, I was Paul that denied it.

Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

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BABerean2 · Oct 18, 2016

staff edit

Joh 20:25 Then the other disciples said to him, We have seen the Lord. But he said to them, Unless I see the mark of the nails in His hands, and thrust my finger into the mark of the nails, and thrust my hand into His side, in no way will I believe.
Joh 20:26 And after eight days, His disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. The door having been locked, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said, Peace to you.
Joh 20:27 Then He said to Thomas, Bring your finger here and see My hands, and bring your hand and thrust into My side, and be not unbelieving, but believing.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!

Eph_5:30　 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.

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tatteredsoul · Oct 18, 2016

LamorakDesGalis said:
The theory commonly called "the rapture hoax" for the origins of the pretribulation rapture goes something like this:

1. The idea originated with Immanuel Lacunza, a Roman Catholic Jesuit, who published a book in 1812 (in Spanish) called The Coming of Messiah in Majesty and Glory.

2. Edward Irving, a pioneer to the Catholic Apostolic Church, translated Lacunza's book in the 1820s. The Catholic Apostolic Church held to the reappearance of the supernatural gifts of tongues, healing and prophesying. While they were not founded by Irving, the members were commonly derided as "Irvingites."

3. Margaret MacDonald, an "Irvingite" gave a prophecy during a meeting and said the rapture was pretribulational.

4. Darby, attending this meeting, appropriated the pretribulation rapture as his own idea.

There are insinuations behind this theory, and to interpret those insinuations:
1. When your belief originates from a Roman Catholic, and especially a Spanish Jesuit, it is downright bad.
2. When this bad idea is translated into English by a misguided heretic, and then one of these Irvingites - Margaret MacDonald - utters it in a prophecy, it is even worse.
3. But it wasn't any prophecy, it was a demonic prophecy coming from a 13 year old girl. Most proper Christians would never touch that with a 10 foot pole, but not Darby.
4. Darby, who obviously couldn't think of something original on his own, decided to plagiarize the idea of a pretribulation rapture. Not just from anybody, but from a 13-year old demonically inspired girl. Bad Darby. Then Darby passed this idea on to the rest of the evangelical world, where most people bought it hook, line and sinker. Very bad Darby. And shame on those who hold to such a demonically inspired doctrine today, because you really should know better.

Now how should dispensationalists respond to this? I really don't think it is very helpful to ask questions such as:
1) Where did Edward Irving learn Spanish?
2) What color was Margaret's hair when she uttered the prophecy?
3) Was Darby really that bad at creating ideas and that great of a marketing expert?
4) Seriously, a demonically inspired 13 year old girl???

What might be helpful though is to ask whether the idea of a pretribulation rapture has been taught before Lacunza. That would immediately go to the heart of the matter.

A man named Morgan Edwards, a Baptist who founded Brown University, wrote something interesting. In the 1740s he wrote that 3.5 years before the two witnesses of Rev 11 were to be killed by the Antichrist, that Jesus would appear in the clouds, and that the dead in Christ would be raised and the living caught up to be with Him.

Going further back, written in the 1300s in Latin, is a text called The History of Brother Dolcino. The beliefs of the Apostolic Brethren are described as: after the coming of the Antichrist, believers will be caught up into paradise to be preserved from harm, then Enoch and Elijah would descend to the earth and eventually be killed by the Antichrist, and after the Antichrist is dead the believers would return to earth.

So if the "rapture hoax" theory is to be taken seriously, shoudn't it at least take these two examples into account? And if it can't...or won't...

These would be fine if it stood up to a biblical test. As in, where in the bible canon does Christ, or God ever say they would take the saints/elect/wise away 3.5 years before or during the tribulation?

It should beg the question of "has God ever taken His people completely off the earth before, or during a tribulation?" The answer is no.

He didn't rapture anyone when the actual world ended once before - with Noah. He provided a way to escape, and witness.

He did rapture anyone when He razed Egypt. He provided a way to escape, and witness.

He didn't rapture the Israelites from the nephilim, rephaim, anakim, or emim after they saw these races literally using their bones for soup stock, and getting full off of the blood of His people. He provided a way to escape through a remnant - and as witnesses.

God did not rapture Daniel from the Lion or Fire pit. He provided Daniel and his friends an escape through protection from "another likened to the Son of Man," and an escape.

God did not rapture Christ - and He even asked for "his bitter cup to be taken..."

The Woman (church) that was pained to be delivered was not raptured from the Dragon. She was given a way to escape - wings of an eagle - and witness.

So, why would we think God is going to rapture us when that is not His MO. Explained in Daniel 11-12, God will give a "little bit of help" to the saints/wise to continue in endurance during the time.

Daniel 11:11 also says that from the time the daily sacrifice is removed, to the abomination that causes desolation occurs is 1290 days. The saints are supposed to endure for this long plus 45 more days. And, those that last 1335 days are blessed.

Even Paul says, "at the last Trump..." events of resurrection happen. In other words, at the end.

A rapture suggests a second, secret advent of Christ. Why would Christ remove the wise ones and saints when they are the very people that are supposed to be warning people about Antichrist?

Who are the saints that (if it were possible) would be deceived by the Antichrist, if all the saints are taken and there is no one to teach about Antichrist?

The rapture is also dangerous for political and economic reasons. In terms of faith, it will destroy many people's faith if/when it doesn't happen.

tatteredsoul · Oct 18, 2016

staff edit.

I still don't see how a rapture will happen, from the bible.

The pattern of God, and His word, do not explicitly, or implicitly suggest a taking away of all of the saints in a hidden Advent of Christ.

And, honestly it is kind of a slap in the face to all of the people going through tribulation right now who have to endure it, and don't get raptured.

The rapture doctrine is dangerous for many reasons - the main being it isn't in the bible canon, or apocrypha. Christ uses a metaphor of a theif to accentuate preparedness for His coming. Christ says we are NOT supposed to be ignorant of the day He comes, and that the ignorant are the ones who "will not know the time..." Otherwise, God wouldn't tell us to watch.

I used to believe the rapture was before or during tribulation. But not now.

Daniel 11:11 talks about 1290 days between the time the daily sacrifice is taken away to the point the abomination that causes desolation occur. At that point, Antichrist is here. And, if you remember Christ says to flee to the mountains at this point - at the end of the 1290 when the abomination is set up. This is from Christ Himself Mark 13:14.

Then, Daniel says blessed are those who endure 45 more days (1335 days AFTER the daily sacrifice.)

Then, in Mark 13:17, He alludes to the pregnant woman prophecy again - we are supposed to refer to the prophecy of the woman pained to be delivered.

She wasn't raptured, she had wings to FLEE, while the dragon made war with her REMNANT. Daniel already tell us some will die by sword, captivity, spoil or fire. These wise won't be raptured either.

Where is the rapture in the bible?

FreeinChrist · Oct 18, 2016

MOD HAT

A small clean up was done to remove some violations and the posts responding to it.

Please stay on topic

BABerean2 · Oct 18, 2016

tatteredsoul said:
Daniel 11:11 talks about 1290 days between the time the daily sacrifice is taken away to the point the abomination that causes desolation occur. At that point, Antichrist is here. And, if you remember Christ says to flee to the mountains at this point - at the end of the 1290 when the abomination is set up. This is from Christ Himself Mark 13:14.

Then, Daniel says blessed are those who endure 45 more days (1335 days AFTER the daily sacrifice.)

In 167 BC Antiochus Epiphanes set up at statue in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem and had a pig slaughtered on the alter. He commanded that the sacrifices be stopped and killed thousands of Jews in the city.

About three years later the Jews under the Maccabees rededicated the temple.
Today this event is celebrated with the Jewish festival of Hanukkah.
It was also celebrated during the time of Christ, based on the following verse.

Joh_10:22　 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter.

If we look at the parallel passage from Luke's Gospel we see that Christ was predicting that an even similar to what had happened in 167 BC would happen again.

Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　

Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　

Luk 21:22　 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　

Luk 21:23　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.　

Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　

Almost all scholars agree that verse 24 is about the events of 70 AD.
It is confirmed by the words of Jesus below.

Luk 19:41　 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it,　
Luk 19:42　 saying, "If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes.　
Luk 19:43　 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side,　
Luk 19:44　 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation."　

In Luke 21:25 and the verses that follow it we find scripture which refers to the Second Coming.

The disciples asked two questions and Jesus answered two questions in the Olivet Discourse.

1. When will the temple be destroyed?

2. What will be the sign of your return?

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Biblewriter · Feb 20, 2017

The hard truth, whether or not anyone is willing to admit it, is that although the Bible very clearly says that the rapture will indeed take place, it simply does not state the timing of that event, in regard to the rest of end time prophecy. Thus all positions on the timing of the rapture are based on interpretations of scripture.

So, while it is indeed appropriate to debate the timing of the rapture, and even to debate it energetically, it is inappropriate to attribute evil intent, or a Satanic origin, to interpretations that differ from your own.

On the other hand, it is indeed evil to make false statements. And after someone has seen the proof of the error of a belief about the history of an idea, continued posting of such false allegations are no longer mere errors as to fact, but falsehood.

BABerean2 · Feb 20, 2017

Biblewriter said:
The hard truth, whether or not anyone is willing to admit it, is that although the Bible very clearly says that the rapture will indeed take place, it simply does not state the timing of that event, in regard to the rest of end time prophecy. Thus all positions on the timing of the rapture are based on interpretations of scripture.

The event is described at the end of 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 and the timing of the event is revealed at the beginning of chapter 5, on the day of the Lord, when He comes as a thief.

Based on 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15-16, "the day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief", is a Second Coming event.

The word "sleep" in the following verse proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.

1Th 5:10　 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.　

One would have to ignore the verse above, to come up with another interpretation of the passage.

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Biblewriter · Feb 20, 2017

BABerean2 said:
The event is described at the end of 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 and the timing of the event is revealed at the beginning of chapter 5, on the day of the Lord, when He comes as a thief.

Based on 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15-16, "the day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief", is a Second Coming event.

The word "sleep" in the following verse proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.

1Th 5:10　 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.　

One would have to ignore the verse above, to come up with another interpretation of the passage.

.

Whether you admit it or not, this is interpretation of scripture, not scripture.

vinsight4u · Feb 20, 2017

jgr · Feb 21, 2017

Biblewriter said:
Whether you admit it or not, this is interpretation of scripture, not scripture.

So when scripture is used to interpret scripture, it's interpretation, not scripture.

I'd characterize this as an absolute illogicity.

BABerean2 · Feb 21, 2017

vinsight4u said:
Now use the fact that we are to be blameless...without offence
....till the day of Christ...till His coming...to prove they are the same
as day of the Lord.
day of Christ...Philippians 1:6.....Philippians 1:10...2 Thessalonians 2

Rev 11:15　 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"　(How long is "forever"?)
Rev 11:16　 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God,　
Rev 11:17　 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.　
Rev 11:18　 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."　

His servants will be rewarded and the others will be destroyed, when His wrath comes.

The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

The Second Coming is found here, and in the "harvest" of chapter 14, and when He "comes as a thief" at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16, and when He returns in chapter 19 and in several other places that are not quite as clearly defined in the text.

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Biblewriter · Feb 21, 2017

Everyone taking any position in the debate about the timing of the rapture can post plenty of scriptures that can legitimately be interpreted to prove their own opinions. But not even one of these scriptures states whether the rapture is before, during, or after Daniel's seventieth week.

I am absolutely persuaded that there are plenty of scriptures that indicate that the rapture will be before that period. And I am certain that any REAL understanding of end time prophecy is impossible without understanding this. But I am aware that this is interpretation of scripture, and that ALL interpretations of scripture are fallible, because they involve the fallible human mind.

And I clearly see that almost all of the arguments in favor of the post trib rapture involve an outright ASSUMPTION, that the Lord is only returning once. This ASSUMPTION is invalid because there was not even one Old Testament scripture that said Messiah would come more that once. But now that we have the New Testament, we KNOW that these Old Testament prophecies spoke of more than a single coming.

BABerean2 · Feb 21, 2017

Biblewriter said:
But not even one of these scriptures states whether the rapture is before, during, or after Daniel's seventieth week.

Who Confirmed The Covenant?
James Lloyd
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

SeventyOne · Feb 21, 2017

Biblewriter said:
Everyone taking any position in the debate about the timing of the rapture can post plenty of scriptures that can legitimately be interpreted to prove their own opinions. But not even one of these scriptures states whether the rapture is before, during, or after Daniel's seventieth week.

I am absolutely persuaded that there are plenty of scriptures that indicate that the rapture will be before that period. And I am certain that any REAL understanding of end time prophecy is impossible without understanding this. But I am aware that this is interpretation of scripture, and that ALL interpretations of scripture are fallible, because they involve the fallible human mind.

And I clearly see that almost all of the arguments in favor of the post trib rapture involve an outright ASSUMPTION, that the Lord is only returning once. This ASSUMPTION is invalid because there was not even one Old testament scripture that said Messiah would come more that once. But now that we have the New Testament, we KNOW that these Old Testament prophecies spoke of more than a single coming.

I think it's quite probable the rapture is what is referenced in Revelation 12 when the child is caught up (harpazo) just as we are told those by Paul concerning those who are caught up (harpazo) with the Lord in 1 Thess 4:17.

I also think since Revelation seems to cover some events multiple times, it's not a single chronology from chapters 4 through 19 but different views of the same timeframe, just as Genesis 2 gives a different view of the creation account in Genesis 1. Also, if you consider the writing style of John in his gospel, he doesn't focus on timelines nearly as much as the other writers, but rather he focuses on accounts of events, and when compared with other gospels, one can see that he didn't write all his accounts in chronological order. He has the birth at the beginning, the death at the end, and then chronology-jumbled accounts in between. It seems to me Revelation is the same way, the beginning were the present day churches, then at the end is the final judgment, and in the middle are various accounts across the same timeline.

Therefore I think it's possible that the Revelation 12 commencing events are not mid-trib, but rather pre-trib. Add that to understanding that the Rev 12 signs appear to be coming upon us this September, I'm really thinking time is also short. Let's just say I'm not all that concerned about the value of my 401k at the moment.

Biblewriter · Feb 21, 2017

BABerean2 said:
Who Confirmed The Covenant?
James Lloyd
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

Your respose did not even address, much less answer, my obseration.

BABerean2 · Feb 22, 2017

SeventyOne said:
I think it's quite probable the rapture is what is referenced in Revelation 12 when the child is caught up (harpazo) just as we are told those by Paul concerning those who are caught up (harpazo) with the Lord in 1 Thess 4:17.

I also think since Revelation seems to cover some events multiple times, it's not a single chronology from chapters 4 through 19 but different views of the same timeframe, just as Genesis 2 gives a different view of the creation account in Genesis 1. Also, if you consider the writing style of John in his gospel, he doesn't focus on timelines nearly as much as the other writers, but rather he focuses on accounts of events, and when compared with other gospels, one can see that he didn't write all his accounts in chronological order. He has the birth at the beginning, the death at the end, and then chronology-jumbled accounts in between. It seems to me Revelation is the same way, the beginning were the present day churches, then at the end is the final judgment, and in the middle are various accounts across the same timeline.

Therefore I think it's possible that the Revelation 12 commencing events are not mid-trib, but rather pre-trib. Add that to understanding that the Rev 12 signs appear to be coming upon us this September, I'm really thinking time is also short. Let's just say I'm not all that concerned about the value of my 401k at the moment.

I agree completely with most of what you said about the chronology of the Book of Revelation.

The Second Coming is found in those hiding from the wrath of the Lamb at the end of chapter 6.

It is found at the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11:15 and the time of God's wrath and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18.

It is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14.

It is found when He "comes as a thief" in Revelation 16:15-16, at Armageddon.

It is found in chapter 19.

It is found in chapter 20.

.....................................................

Based on Psalm 2, the man-child who will rule with a rod of iron is Christ.
The potter destroys the flawed pots with the rod of iron. He does not correct them as some people teach.

Psa 2:6　 "Yet I have set My King On My holy hill of Zion."　

Psa 2:7　 "I will declare the decree: The LORD has said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.　

Psa 2:8　 Ask of Me, and I will give You The nations for Your inheritance, And the ends of the earth for Your possession.　

Psa 2:9　 You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel.' "　

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