Did the Virgin Mary remain a virgin?

Did the Virgin Mary remain a virgin?

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JohannaSK

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In a way it would be nice to think of Mary as semper virgo, but I think the Scripture don't point to that...

But does the Catholic Church really state that if you don't believe in Mary's perpetual virginity you can't get to Heaven?

I'm sorry I didn't read the whole thread because it's so long. Maybe this question has already been adressed properly.

I think if God wanted us to absolutely believe in that, He would have put it clearly into the Scripture by the Holy Spirit. So why didn't He? And why did He have sentences put there that makes one understand that the marriage between Mary and Joseph was consummated after Jesus's birth?

God wants us in Heaven. If this was a dealbreaker to Him, He would have made it clear, I think.
 
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MarysSon

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In a way it would be nice to think of Mary as semper virgo, but I think the Scripture don't point to that...

But does the Catholic Church really state that if you don't believe in Mary's perpetual virginity you can't get to Heaven?

I'm sorry I didn't read the whole thread because it's so long. Maybe this question has already been adressed properly.

I think if God wanted us to absolutely believe in that, He would have put it clearly into the Scripture by the Holy Spirit. So why didn't He? And why did He have sentences put there that makes one understand that the marriage between Mary and Joseph was consummated after Jesus's birth?

God wants us in Heaven. If this was a dealbreaker to Him, He would have made it clear, I think.
No, it doesn't mean that you can't get into heaven.
However, your first statement interests me: "In a way it would be nice to think of Mary as semper virgo, but I think the Scripture don't point to that..."

Actually - just the opposite is true. The Scriptures don't point to the idea that Mary had "other" children. Let's review . . .
The normal Greek words for “brother(s) “adelphos” and “adelphoi” were used much more liberally than the normal meaning. It was applied to cousins, uncles, nephews, neighbors and kinsmen alike. The Aramaic word, “ach”, encompasses the meanings for brother of same parents, half-brother (same father), relative, kinship, same tribe, and even a fellow countryman.

Furthermore, there was no term for the word “cousin” in the Aramaic language that Jesus spoke. When the Old Testament was translated into Greek in the centuries before the birth of Christ (the Septuagint), the words “adelphos” and “adelphoi” were used in places where “ach” was. This is why we have many examples in the Septuagint of the following:

In Gen. 14:14, Lot is called Abraham’s "brother", even though he was the son of Haran, Abraham’s brother (Gen. 11:26–28). In Gen. 29:15, Jacob is referred to as the "brother" of his uncle Laban.

Brothers Kish and Eleazar were the sons of Mahli. Kish had sons of his own, but Eleazar’s daughters married their "brethren”, the sons of Kish - who were actually their cousins (1 Chr. 23:21–22).

What about the names of the adelphoi of Jesus - James, Joseph (Joses), Jude (Judas), and the passages that mention these adelphoi, (Matt. 12:46; Matt. 13:55; Mark 3:31–34; Mark 6:3; Luke 8:19–20; John 2:12, 7:3, 5, 10; Acts 1:14; 1 Cor. 9:5)?

The “other Mary” at the foot of the cross is described as being the mother of James and Joseph (Joses). She is also described as being Mary’s (mother of Jesus) “sister” (adelphe) (John 19:25). Since it was not possible for sisters to have the same name according to Jewish Tradition - this "other Mary" was some other relation.

What do the Scriptures have to say about the women standing at the cross and their children?

Matt. 27:56 says, "…among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee".

Mark 15:40 states, "There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome").

Finally, John 19:25 states, "But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene".

When you compare the different accounts of the crucifixion, they clearly show the mother of James and Joseph to be the wife of Clopas (also called, Alphaeus) – not Mary, the Mother of Jesus. Any attempt to connect these people as uterine brothers of Jesus are squashed by the Bible.
 
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Truth Lover

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55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? - Matthew 13

But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. - Galatians 1:19
Consider these verses:
John 19:25 “Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary, the wife of Clophas, and Mary Magdela. (This Mary was not married to Joseph.)


Mt 27:56 “Among them were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee”.


MK 15:40 “There were also women looking on from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of the younger James and of Joses, and Salome.”


MK 15:47 “Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses watched where he was laid.”


Lk 5:9-10 “For astonishment at the catch of fish they had made seized him and all those with him, and likewise James and John, the sons of Zebedee, who were partners of Simon. Jesus said to Simon, ‘Do not be afraid; from now on you will be catching men’.


Mark 1:19, “He walked a little farther and saw James, the sons of Zebedee, and his brother John. They too were in a boat mending their nets.”


Mark 3: 15 – 19 And he appointed twelve, to be with him, and to be sent out to preach…James the son of Zebedee and John the brother of James, …, and James the son of Alphaeus, …”


MK 10:35 “Then James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came to him and said to him, ‘Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever we ask of you.’


Mt 4:21 “He walked along from there and saw two other brothers, James, the son of Zebedee, and his brother John.


Mt 16:17 “Jesus said to him in reply, ‘Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.”


Luke 6: 13-16 “And when it was day, he called his disciples, and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles; Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.”


John 6:71 “He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was to betray him.” John 13:26 Jesus answered, "It is he to whom I shall give this morsel when I have dipped it." So when he had dipped the morsel, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot.


Acts 1:13 “:and when they had entered, they went up to the upper room, where they were staying, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot and Judas the son of James.”

These verses show that the men called Jesus' brothers were sons f men others than Jesus. None are listed as sons of Mary and Joseph.
 
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rockytopva

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Consider these verses:
John 19:25 “Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary, the wife of Clophas, and Mary Magdela. (This Mary was not married to Joseph.)


Mt 27:56 “Among them were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee”.


MK 15:40 “There were also women looking on from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of the younger James and of Joses, and Salome.”


MK 15:47 “Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses watched where he was laid.”


Lk 5:9-10 “For astonishment at the catch of fish they had made seized him and all those with him, and likewise James and John, the sons of Zebedee, who were partners of Simon. Jesus said to Simon, ‘Do not be afraid; from now on you will be catching men’.


Mark 1:19, “He walked a little farther and saw James, the sons of Zebedee, and his brother John. They too were in a boat mending their nets.”


Mark 3: 15 – 19 And he appointed twelve, to be with him, and to be sent out to preach…James the son of Zebedee and John the brother of James, …, and James the son of Alphaeus, …”


MK 10:35 “Then James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came to him and said to him, ‘Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever we ask of you.’


Mt 4:21 “He walked along from there and saw two other brothers, James, the son of Zebedee, and his brother John.


Mt 16:17 “Jesus said to him in reply, ‘Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.”


Luke 6: 13-16 “And when it was day, he called his disciples, and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles; Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.”


John 6:71 “He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was to betray him.” John 13:26 Jesus answered, "It is he to whom I shall give this morsel when I have dipped it." So when he had dipped the morsel, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot.


Acts 1:13 “:and when they had entered, they went up to the upper room, where they were staying, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot and Judas the son of James.”

These verses show that the men called Jesus' brothers were sons f men others than Jesus. None are listed as sons of Mary and Joseph.

Welcome to CF! Bible verses always welcome,
 
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Rick Otto

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Well, after being away from here for a while it is refeshing to find that this issue has passed 1,000 posts with the same result - no resolution. My bet is that 1,000 more posts will reach the same conclusion.
Missed ya.
The thread doesn't exist to produce "a" conclusion. It exists so we may each reach our own.
 
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BukiRob

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Consider these verses:
John 19:25 “Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary, the wife of Clophas, and Mary Magdela. (This Mary was not married to Joseph.)


Mt 27:56 “Among them were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee”.


MK 15:40 “There were also women looking on from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of the younger James and of Joses, and Salome.”


MK 15:47 “Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses watched where he was laid.”


Lk 5:9-10 “For astonishment at the catch of fish they had made seized him and all those with him, and likewise James and John, the sons of Zebedee, who were partners of Simon. Jesus said to Simon, ‘Do not be afraid; from now on you will be catching men’.


Mark 1:19, “He walked a little farther and saw James, the sons of Zebedee, and his brother John. They too were in a boat mending their nets.”


Mark 3: 15 – 19 And he appointed twelve, to be with him, and to be sent out to preach…James the son of Zebedee and John the brother of James, …, and James the son of Alphaeus, …”


MK 10:35 “Then James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came to him and said to him, ‘Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever we ask of you.’


Mt 4:21 “He walked along from there and saw two other brothers, James, the son of Zebedee, and his brother John.


Mt 16:17 “Jesus said to him in reply, ‘Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.”


Luke 6: 13-16 “And when it was day, he called his disciples, and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles; Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.”


John 6:71 “He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was to betray him.” John 13:26 Jesus answered, "It is he to whom I shall give this morsel when I have dipped it." So when he had dipped the morsel, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot.


Acts 1:13 “:and when they had entered, they went up to the upper room, where they were staying, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot and Judas the son of James.”

These verses show that the men called Jesus' brothers were sons f men others than Jesus. None are listed as sons of Mary and Joseph.

Yep. Spot on
 
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Radrook

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In other words a woman becomes soiled whenever she has sex and Mary cannot have become contaminated in that way because she was Jesus' mother. Maybe the problem is that we are projecting our own fallen human nature on things that God might very well see otherwise.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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In other words a woman becomes soiled whenever she has sex and Mary cannot have become contaminated in that way because she was Jesus' mother. Maybe the problem is that we are projecting our own fallen human nature on things that God might very well see otherwise.
The problem is the opposite actually. We are projecting our fallen human nature on God and also on a person said to be Holy, and what it would mean for God to prepare a Holy temple for Himself to be made Man inside Her body.

In the Hail Mary prayer "full of Grace", reflects the angels greeting and the idea one cannot have any more of God's Grace added to oneself than Mary ALREADY had at that moment. The favor with God, God is with her, blessed among all women statements were present tense, not future. Those were not reflections on what will or could be if Mary said yes,those were statements of Her state with God already before the angle came. He said literally "you are" before even telling Her why he was there.

The rest of the problem is a failure to appreciate the value of (and to from Joseph's view) a person being made completely Holy, a lack of respect for the idea that person should want to protect that status very carefully, along with the idea of Her having that status with God is less important to Her than Her human relationships and maybe most importantly the way humans should properly treat a person Whom God Himself has prepared as a Holy Temple for Himself in making Her into something humans would seemingly treat as just another virgin waiting to carry on a life with Her husband to be.

Combined all that with an assumption the whole very brief mention in the Gospels of Her and Joseph's intentions toward each other reflects just an ordinary couple in love, makes for a rather fragile position from which to throw stones against long held traditions concerning Her Life.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Matthew 1:25

"But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus."

According to the Word of God, she only remained a virgin until after the birth of Jesus.
Until does not present as something is true after the point it was said not true. They had a huge lead UNTIL 10 minutes into the 2nd quarter tells me nothing of what happens after that for example. I cannot assume they lost lead or the game or stopped playing football or even that they were playing football differently UNTIL that point and changed up after.

Since Joseph statement is essentially an affirmation that his Child has to be adopted by him, as in not his Child. I see no point in presenting this as a claim that after Jesus Birth Joseph was happily creating other persons in a place God had prepared as a Holy Temple for Himself to become Man inside.
Do we have Biblical examples that Joseph would have no problem appealing to for say, using the Ark of the Covenant as a bathtub, or remove the relics and use it as his own footlocker?
If a Jewish man would not be willing to re-purpose a Holy Temple for some other use, am unclear why we should think Joseph would be OK doing so just because God is no longer physically in that Holy Temple. I think they had a much better respect of the spiritual aspect of something, someone being a Holy Temple than we typically do.

Also. Complete the thought.
If we presume everyone just assumed this was a normal marriage and the happy could produced more children - why would it be important to go to the trouble to mention they abstained from sex during the pregnancy and then carried on afterward?
IOW if everybody just assumed naturally they would do so, why mention their sex life at all.
What is so important about Joseph's desire/right for having sex after God physically left (not Spiritually) that Holy Temple that it needs to be mentioned?
Unless..................what???
 
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DrBubbaLove

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If I say, "I waited until 9:10 for the teacher to arrive. . . " the implication is explicit that after 9:10 I ceased waiting. "Until" does carry with it a change of action or events.
Again, waiting for what and what happened at 09:11 is unsaid. All we know is that one is waiting. We could assume all sorts of things including you left that school mad and never had interaction with that teacher again.

Implying that by "until" one had temporarily ceased or never started to learn from that teacher and then began learning immediately after that point to learn from that teacher is an assumption that if we knew nothing else is not necessarily a given.

So again, if I assume that everyone of that day knew Mary and Joseph were a young couple in love that already had intentions to be married and have lots of children, and then this Holy Temple thing for God becoming Man inside temporarily interrupted their plans, then what is the point of making sure I know they started having sex that night in the stables?

If it is known this was a normal relationship, their temporary suppression of a sex life and intentions on having children would be an unnecessary detail for me or anyone to know because it would be assumed that of course a normal young married couple would plan to have sex and have children. It is not like we get a lot of details about Mary and Joseph, and the parchment used is precious. So why say that at all if it was just a simple matter of, of course they would as it seems to go without saying it?
 
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prodromos

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If I say, "I waited until 9:10 for the teacher to arrive. . . " the implication is explicit that after 9:10 I ceased waiting. "Until" does carry with it a change of action or events.
So when the Scriptures state that David's wife Michal had no children until the day she died, it means that she had children after she died?
 
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bbbbbbb

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Again, waiting for what and what happened at 09:11 is unsaid. All we know is that one is waiting. We could assume all sorts of things including you left that school mad and never had interaction with that teacher again.

Implying that by "until" one had temporarily ceased or never started to learn from that teacher and then began learning immediately after that point to learn from that teacher is an assumption that if we knew nothing else is not necessarily a given.

So again, if I assume that everyone of that day knew Mary and Joseph were a young couple in love that already had intentions to be married and have lots of children, and then this Holy Temple thing for God becoming Man inside temporarily interrupted their plans, then what is the point of making sure I know they started having sex that night in the stables?

If it is known this was a normal relationship, their temporary suppression of a sex life and intentions on having children would be an unnecessary detail for me or anyone to know because it would be assumed that of course a normal young married couple would plan to have sex and have children. It is not like we get a lot of details about Mary and Joseph, and the parchment used is precious. So why say that at all if it was just a simple matter of, of course they would as it seems to go without saying it?

You missed the point. In my statement, "I waited until 9:10 for the teacher to arrive.", the implication is that after 9:10 I ceased waiting. The implication is crystal clear that the action I had been doing prior to 9:10 resulted in the opposite action after 9:10. I waited and then I stopped waiting.

In the verse under discussion Joseph waited until after Mary gave birth to Jesus to have relations with her. After the birth of Jesus He "knew" her intimately.

The fact that he did all sorts of other things after the birth of Jesus is utterly extraneous to the meaning of the verse. The meaning stands very clearly to anyone who understands the structure of language.
 
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prodromos

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You missed the point. In my statement, "I waited until 9:10 for the teacher to arrive.", the implication is that after 9:10 I ceased waiting. The implication is crystal clear that the action I had been doing prior to 9:10 resulted in the opposite action after 9:10. I waited and then I stopped waiting.
Actually it doesn't say anything about what you did after 9:10. Your narrative may just be inserting that time stamp so that people understand that the teacher had not yet arrived and indeed was late. You may have continued waiting long beyond that time but your narrative doesn't give any more information to know one way or the other.
 
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