Eastern Orthodox View of the Merits of Works

Christina C said:

Re your first point - again that is not what I said.

Re your second point - so, you think that Christians since the reformation have got it right? You do know that Protestant Christians don't all agree, which is why there are so many denominations. Also, some of the earliest Church fathers knew the Apostles and were taught by them.

Re your third point - how have you formed that view?

Re your fourth point - yes, it was rapid growth of the Orthodox Church.

But, I will bow out of this as, as before, this site is for debating an Orthodox Christian, which I am not.

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I think christians who stand on what the bible plainly states have got it right. Those who totally rely on the Holy Spirit to lead them into truth

Christina C said:

I think that Matt is asking you that (about righteousness) so that he can try and answer your question (apologies Matt if I have got that wrong).

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no, that was it. having been on this forum a while, I know how fast stuff can spiral out of hand when folks don't agree on their terms out of the gate.

abacabb3 said:

Which of course is you and not all the Christians who existed for the last 2,000 years that don't share you views. You even said yourself, you don't bother with the Fathers, because you can just read your Bible. It's good that you can, but if you are mistaken in your interpretation, what independent authority do you have to check it against?

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I rely on the holy spirit to lead me into truth, you rely on a church denomination. Which one is more fallible?

Do all who go to church rely on the Holy spirit to lead them into truth?

The Holy Spirit would surely bring an understanding to those who rely on him for truth as to what is their righteousness before God.

And the Spirit I the author, in its truest sense of the bible.

Where in the bible does it state grace comes through sacraments?

Where in the bible does it state healing for example comes through sacraments?
For Anastasia remarked that healing Is a form of grace.

That is almost an aloof kind of relationship with God in my view.

Jesus healed people because he had compassion for them and they had faith to believe.

That is the heart of the message.

Man made extras are simply that. Man made. Not Holy Spirit inspired or led doctrine

Grace can come through the Sacraments. Grace can come through prayer. Grace can come through suffering. Grace can come through loving others. Grace can come through reading the Scriptures. Grace can come in more ways than these.

Grace is God's work in us, His touch upon us. And He can do that though anything at all that He wants to use.

I'll even go this far. Grace isn't something God keeps locked up, waiting until we jump through the right hoops (whichever we believe the "right" ones to be), in order to extract it of God. Why do some people think of God in that way?

We are talking about God who described Himself to us as BEING agape-love. Who proved that fact by being willing to take on human flesh in order to lay down His life for us, in a brutal death at that.

Does that sound like the kind of God who is then going to dangle grace like a carrot on a stick, JUST out of our reach, making us leap into the air until He determines that we've sufficiently done whatever it is He has determined, so that we finally get a taste of it from Him?

No, no, no, no, NO! God Who Is agape-love, who died for us, who desires that ALL men be saved ... He is looking for ways to offer His grace, to touch our lives.

Yes, we receive them through the Sacraments. This began to be established from the time of the Apostles. If we are properly disposed, we are assured of God's grace in this way. This is why I said - why would I not want to receive Him?

However ... He can also grant grace in any way He chooses, to any person at any time He so desires, and certainly He does so. I have been very aware of it in myself, and in others. But this is because He loves us, and desires all to repent and be saved.

You asked about healing specifically? What are we told to do when we need healing? Go to the Church and be anointed. This is a Sacrament.

James 5:14 Are any among you sick? Let them call for the presbyters of the Church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the Name of the Lord.*

~Anastasia~ said:

Does that sound like the kind of God who is then going to dangle grace like a carrot on a stick, JUST out of our reach, making us leap into the air until He determines that we've sufficiently done whatever it is He has determined, so that we finally get a taste of it from Him?

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Ironic you use the word taste. Yeah, it can feel exactly like that. It potentially leads to a mixed message. On the one hand, God is said to be compassionate and merciful, on the other hand, a convert needs to prove to a priest that they are worthy of the sacrament. Grace is no longer about God's love, it's about worthiness. It's like a parent that will only feed their children if they are good. Most of us would not consider that a loving parent at all. Most of us would consider that neglectful.

However ... He can also grant grace in any way He chooses, to any person at any time He so desires, and certainly He does so. I have been very aware of it in myself, and in others. But this is because He loves us, and desires all to repent and be saved.

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In fact I've seen Orthodox deny that there is grace outside the canonical boundaries of your communion. Some defend this notion vehemently. Others tolerate it or attempt to ameliorate it by saying that the Orthodox stance is purely negative (we only know where grace is). Either way, one is left in a situation that is quite like Pre-Vtican II Roman Catholicism. Orthodoxy becomes relatively "closed" to the world, and inward looking.

Happy Birthday, Fire! God grant you Many Years.

We do not prove ourselves worthy of the Sacraments. We cannot make ourselves worthy of the Sacraments. We ask Christ to make us worthy to receive the Eucharist, for example - that is the only way.

What the priest's responsibility is is to guard the Chalice. That can mean several things - such as agreeing with Orthodox teaching on the essential points, and may require recent Confession.

It's certainly not about "being good" ... but if, for example, one doesn't agree that a behavior is sinful and needs to be repented of, or disbelieved a central doctrine, then that is a problem.

If you wish to talk about the other point, we can explore that. I can think of several statements, and again, it can be a matter of what is really meant.

I would submit this though - the Orthodox Church generally accepts the Baptism of any denomination that rightly understands the Trinity, and baptized in a Trinitarian formula, which is nearly all denominations. They can be received into the Orthodox Church without being re-baptized, and an Orthodox Christian is allowed to marry them, which is also a Sacrament. An Orthodox Christian cannot marry a non-Christian. If we recognize their Baptism, and view them as Christian, it hardly makes sense to claim that we don't believe that God's grace can act outside the Church.

We really don't tend to limit what God can do.

stuart lawrence said:

Do all who go to church rely on the Holy spirit to lead them into truth?

The Holy Spirit would surely bring an understanding to those who rely on him for truth as to what is their righteousness before God.

And the Spirit I the author, in its truest sense of the bible.

Where in the bible does it state grace comes through sacraments?

Where in the bible does it state healing for example comes through sacraments?
For Anastasia remarked that healing Is a form of grace.

That is almost an aloof kind of relationship with God in my view.

Jesus healed people because he had compassion for them and they had faith to believe.

That is the heart of the message.

Man made extras are simply that. Man made. Not Holy Spirit inspired or led doctrine

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I find it ironic that you see this as an aloof form of relationship with God, though since you don't have experience with the Sacraments, I can understand you not realizing how it is.

Actually, receiving the Eucharist is a very immediate and intimate point of relationship, as is Baptism and Chrismation. Even Confession.

I've lived over 40 years as a Protestant, seeking God and having some intimacy, due to God's mercy and love. Even what I considered to be a great deal of intimacy. But I now recognize that some (not all) was pure emotionalism.

The way I experience God now is much more direct and intimate. Honestly, I don't wish to go into too much detail because it's too precious to chatter on about.

Well, I just find it ironic that you consider it "aloof". And I keep deleting everything else I type about that.

The Holy Spirit led the Apostles into all truth, as promised. The Apostles established the Church, and wrote instructions that were to become Scripture. We read about a number of Sacraments in Scripture - Baptism, the Lord's Supper, Ordination, Anointing for healing, Confession (though it used to be public).

We see in Scripture that God works through them.

Many passages speak of baptism in connection with salvation. Grace of God.

The Holy Spirit granted gifts through the laying on of hands in ordination. Grace of God.

Anointing for healing. Grace of God.

Confession associated with forgiveness and healing. Grace of God.

The Scriptures are our highest authority, but you have to know they were never written to be "the complete instruction manual for how to do Church". The Apostles traveled around, establishing Churches, ordaining and training men about how to conduct them. The epistles were mostly written to clarify doctrine or correct errors that crept in, or exhort and edify.

But the Scriptures were not meant to stand alone. What is the pillar and ground of the truth?

Thank you, my birthday sort of crept up on me. Everybody at church ambushed me too, even though I was tired (I'm not a morning person, I guess I need to start getting up earlier).

In my case, my initial difficulties in the Orthodox Church weren't even about needing repentance for myself, just questioning church teaching, respectfully. There's lots of catholics and orthodox that aren't fully on board with everything, I know from experience. But they still go to church and do the stuff they are supposed to do. And by that time in my spiritual journey I was burnt out (I was very devout, as much as any catechumen could be at times) and I just wanted to settle into the church I felt God had called me to and have the church carry me, and my priest acted like that wasn't good enough, that I needed more enthusiasm like the rest of new people (that landed me in a mental hospital during Holy Week). Finally, months later, he told me I needed to find a more liberal church. But I tried that and I found myself in totally unfamiliar waters and never felt at home. I only felt at home in the Divine Liturgy. It was a noisy home, a scary home at times, but it still felt like home.

I had something similar happen in the Lutheran church, BTW. In the end I just coasted in. I was constantly doubting myself, especially during the last few weeks. The different was my pastor was very patient and never accused me of being unfaithful for confronting him with tough questions (I can only think of the proverb of an iron sharpening iron). He talked openly about the abhorance of judging someone, just because they had doubts or questions, or even because they lived a lifestyle that made him personally uneasy. His job as a pastor was to accompany me on my journey of faith. My impression of him, was that he was a profoundly kind-hearted, humble man that genuinely gave his time to people without any agenda or expectation. In fact, I kept feeling "he can't possibly be sincere", or "gee, this is so corny". But you know, I'm starting to come around and he's starting to melt the iciness I've developed inside me.

I'm a bit ashamed a few weeks ago he asked me if I was a real disciple of Christ, and I said sheepishly I didn't know, but I was certainly willing to hear what Jesus said. He told me flatly, you are a disciple, but I didn't want to believe it. I think now yeah, I really am disciple, I was just so beaten down I couldn't admit to it, too full of my own pain.

All I can say is that at best I respected my Orthodox priest, I feared him even at times... but I love my pastor, he is almost like a family member. He's closer than my flesh and blood dad in many ways. BTW, my pastor gave me a birthday card that is made from an image of an icon of the Ressurection, the same style of icon he gave me about a year ago - which is good because it is what I needed, something familiar to be in contact with. It helped me get interested in church again. Again, I'm ashamed it sat for months in a bag before I got it out and dusted it off around Easter (I didn't even bother going last year on easter, I was so disillusioned, I went back on Pentecost though).

So what's my point... a cautionary tale. I think you, Anastasia, have had a good experience. But there's potential pitfalls too. Eastern Orthodoxy is not some kind of open-armed embrace of people, it potentially demands alot. Perhaps more than one is capable of giving without losing ones sanity.

God bless you, dear brother.

I know you've had some hard times, and I felt a little badly for speaking plainly to you at times.

Above all, I am most thankful that you are being drawn to Christ and strengthened in Him. THAT is what matters, above all.

What can I say about the Orthodox Church?

I think at least ideally, it IS an open-armed embrace. But yes, it is in fact also demanding. I don't see them as necessary opposites. And in general, I think both are a good thing.

But maybe the demands are too much for some, at some times. That's where pastoral care comes in, I think.

I am indeed very blessed to have a priest who is a wonderful pastor. While I know lots of priests, and they are nearly all what I would consider to be wonderful pastors, the fact is that not EVERY SINGLE priest is. Thankfully, it seems the numbers of ones who are not are small.

I do know of one Abbot (so he would never by my priest anyway) who is just too gruff and strict at times, it seems to me. And I was delighted to learn that my sister-in-law was received into the Orthodox Church, only to find out that the priest turned out to be quite problematic, was defrocked, and she left the Church altogether as a result. And I sometimes wonder why I didn't find Orthodoxy sooner ... but I am told stories of a priest that was at the Church before that - ah, let's just say that if I'd met him as an inquirer, the chances are good that I wouldn't have stayed. As it happened, I was led to the Church and came inquiring a few months after our current priest arrived, thank God. And he is as you say - developing quite a trusting relationship, and I can even begin to see him AS an actual father-type, despite him being some years younger than I, which I think says a lot.

I know many others who I would be very pleased to be in their parishes. I do think most parish priests are probably wonderful. At least what I can say - the Abbot I mentioned is not a parish priest, and his manner is suitable as an Abbott, perhaps. My sil's priest was removed. Our parish priest from former times was moved to a position where his approach wouldn't be a problem. So in fairly short order, things actually get "fixed" too.

But I know things aren't always perfect. And I don't generally speak of that, but anyone asking about Orthodoxy shouldn't be given false expectations either, so maybe the acknowledgement that problems can happen has a place too. But it does seem they are very rare.

I am sorry, and I know your situation was a difficult one.

Grace comes through accepting the son of God as your saviour. Faith in him brings grace to you, for you are then a child of God, part of his family.
Grace doesn't come and go, you don't have to perform certain rites, rituals and ceremonies to receive grace, it is always there, for you are part of Gods family, and loved of God. That is why you have received grace. And it is why you continue to receive it all of your life.

~Anastasia~ said:

I find it ironic that you see this as an aloof form of relationship with God, though since you don't have experience with the Sacraments, I can understand you not realizing how it is.

Actually, receiving the Eucharist is a very immediate and intimate point of relationship, as is Baptism and Chrismation. Even Confession.

I've lived over 40 years as a Protestant, seeking God and having some intimacy, due to God's mercy and love. Even what I considered to be a great deal of intimacy. But I now recognize that some (not all) was pure emotionalism.

The way I experience God now is much more direct and intimate. Honestly, I don't wish to go into too much detail because it's too precious to chatter on about.

Well, I just find it ironic that you consider it "aloof". And I keep deleting everything else I type about that.

The Holy Spirit led the Apostles into all truth, as promised. The Apostles established the Church, and wrote instructions that were to become Scripture. We read about a number of Sacraments in Scripture - Baptism, the Lord's Supper, Ordination, Anointing for healing, Confession (though it used to be public).

We see in Scripture that God works through them.

Many passages speak of baptism in connection with salvation. Grace of God.

The Holy Spirit granted gifts through the laying on of hands in ordination. Grace of God.

Anointing for healing. Grace of God.

Confession associated with forgiveness and healing. Grace of God.

The Scriptures are our highest authority, but you have to know they were never written to be "the complete instruction manual for how to do Church". The Apostles traveled around, establishing Churches, ordaining and training men about how to conduct them. The epistles were mostly written to clarify doctrine or correct errors that crept in, or exhort and edify.

But the Scriptures were not meant to stand alone. What is the pillar and ground of the truth?

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I do see it as an aloof kind of Christianity yes.
We partake of communion to remember the Lords death till he comes, not to receive grace, we already have grace, it hasn't left us.
I can assure you I received the Holy Spirit BEFORE I was baptised I water as Cornelius and his household did, so I had received grace already, unless you believe the unsaved are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
I know what James states about pouring oil on the head for healing. But how many instances of healing in the NT can you recall where anyone received sacraments in order to receive healing
When peter told the man at the gate beautiful to get up and walk, there was no necessity to firstly partake of sacraments were there?

A very well known evangelist, who saw tremendous healings in their services( all of which had to be verified by their doctors to get in their books) said, and I quote:

Anyone can see the power in their services I have seen in mine, but it costs everything.

That evangelist forsook marriage and a family and took up the cross Christ gave them and followed after him. They gave up everything for God. And of course, they embraced the fullness of the Holy Spirit available to them, for through Him come miracles
Nothing to do with sacraments but a heart yielded to God.
And people got healed in the services without firstly partaking of rites, rituals, ceremonies and sacraments.
God wants your heart, the more of your life you yield to God from your heart the more he can use you, the more power you receive, nothing to do with sacraments at all

In fact, a Christianity built around going to church once a week and participating of rite, ritual, ceremony and sacrements, is no proof you have done what is most important to God. Surrender your life to Christ from your heart.
Most of the mafia have been baptised in water I believe, and partaken of many sacraments!

When you say grace doesn't come and go, I get the idea that maybe you mean salvation doesn't come and go?

Of course that is true in the sense that if we continue in the faith, we continue in the faith.

Here again, I think we are talking about two different things. Grace are the very energies of God. We don't "possess" grace as a "thing". That's actually an error from Catholicism, basically inherited by Protestants, if you understand grace in that way.

I'm really not interested in arguing, btw. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm trying to share what I know, what I have experienced, which in this case is that God meets us in the Sacraments. That doesn't mean He can't interact with us in other ways, if He chooses. Thankfully, He is loving, even when we are obstinate.

But this is the way He established things, and I'm beyond blessed to receive it.

stuart lawrence said:

In fact, a Christianity built around going to church once a week and participating of rite, ritual, ceremony and sacrements, is no proof you have done what is most important to God. Surrender your life to Christ from your heart.
Most of the mafia have been baptised in water I believe, and partaken of many sacraments!

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Well, I'm not trying to prove anything about myself to anyone. What would that accomplish? If anything, that could be a way of feeding pride.

But it proves something TO me ... going to Church and receiving the Sacraments. I wouldn't say my faith is "built around" that though. My faith is in Christ. But the Church is part of how I live that faith, and an important part.

That's commanded in Scripture too, by the way ...

~Anastasia~ said:

When you say grace doesn't come and go, I get the idea that maybe you mean salvation doesn't come and go?

Of course that is true in the sense that if we continue in the faith, we continue in the faith.

Here again, I think we are talking about two different things. Grace are the very energies of God. We don't "possess" grace as a "thing". That's actually an error from Catholicism, basically inherited by Protestants, if you understand grace in that way.

I'm really not interested in arguing, btw. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm trying to share what I know, what I have experienced, which in this case is that God meets us in the Sacraments. That doesn't mean He can't interact with us in other ways, if He chooses. Thankfully, He is loving, even when we are obstinate.

But this is the way He established things, and I'm beyond blessed to receive it.

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God, meets, and hears me when I pray, he is with me through his Spirit who dwells in me constantly. The Spirit does not reappear in my life each time I would partake of sacraments

stuart lawrence said:

God, meets, and hears me when I pray, he is with me through his Spirit who dwells in me constantly. The Spirit does not reappear in my life each time I would partake of sacraments

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Have you ever received Sacraments?