Is it ever ok to kill our enemies in the name of Jesus?
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John Hyperspace
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What I can say is this: I know the scripture; I know the new covenant; I have myriad teachings telling me "be harmless as doves" "blessed are the peacemakers" "do not resist evil" "take up your cross" "render no man evil for evil" "turn the other cheek" "threaten not" "do not repay evil for evil; overcome evil with good" "love works no ill" "forgive your enemies" etc.
Can anyone produce a single teaching in the manner "kill those that threaten you" "when rendered evil, take out the sword and kill" "blessed are them that kill in my name" or any such thing?
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SolomonVII
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Harmless as doves is a metaphor, but so also is the Armour of God. The epistle of Timothy likewise uses the imagery of being a soldier for Christ, in what has become know as the Church militant.
We are called to spiritual warfare. Be it well understood that spiritual warfare is still warfare. And while we are not called to Holy War. Muslim style, we are called to give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and be loyal citizens. Violence is not to be our personal calling as Christians, but violence ultimately is the underpinning of peace, order and good government in a world where evil has free reign.
The New Testament is ultimately about redemption, and our redemption does not lie in a Messiah who restores a theocracy of Jews in Jerusalem. The global reach of Jesus is not confined to any one nation, but the progeny of Abraham is a nation of nations.
Even if Jesus ultimately did not opt to bring down the armies and hosts of heavens to save his own skin, he let us know in no uncertain terms that that option was open to him.
In the end, the armies of Fascism were not brought down by Christian charity, but by guns and bullets.
We are called to spiritual warfare. Be it well understood that spiritual warfare is still warfare. And while we are not called to Holy War. Muslim style, we are called to give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and be loyal citizens. Violence is not to be our personal calling as Christians, but violence ultimately is the underpinning of peace, order and good government in a world where evil has free reign.
The New Testament is ultimately about redemption, and our redemption does not lie in a Messiah who restores a theocracy of Jews in Jerusalem. The global reach of Jesus is not confined to any one nation, but the progeny of Abraham is a nation of nations.
Even if Jesus ultimately did not opt to bring down the armies and hosts of heavens to save his own skin, he let us know in no uncertain terms that that option was open to him.
In the end, the armies of Fascism were not brought down by Christian charity, but by guns and bullets.
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So it would have been permissible for Jesus' disciples to render, an eye for an eye etc., before the death of Jesus whether He told them to or not?
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John Hyperspace
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What I can say is this: I have myriad teachings telling me "be harmless as doves" "blessed are the peacemakers" "do not resist evil" "take up your cross" "render no man evil for evil" "turn the other cheek" "threaten not" "do not repay evil for evil; overcome evil with good" "love works no ill" "forgive your enemies" etc.
Can anyone produce a single teaching in the manner "kill those that threaten you" "when rendered evil, take out the sword and kill" "blessed are them that kill in my name" or any such thing?
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Doesn't really answer my question does it? The typical proof text theology. One can prove almost anything by quoting bits and pieces of out-of-context verses. Weren't all those myriad of scriptures given before the new covenant?
.....I can even prove that the Bible says "there is no God," twice.
I wonder if people who profess to have this turn the other cheek theology, will they call the police if they are robbed, assaulted etc? Or will they do nothing and accept their misfortune as the will of God?
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PollyJetix
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You are taking those verses out of context.
Those things are said within the context of the Law.
In fact, the Law itself said similar things:
Proverbs 25:21 "If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink."
So, the idea of loving your enemies was also woven into the OT.
Jesus said He did not come to destroy the Law.
As the standard of right and wrong, the Law still stands.
Those verses you think are telling you to not go to war, in the NT, are only a continuation and reiteration of what God said in the OT, when He said, "Thou shalt not kill."
Yet, that same God told Moses and Joshua and David to go to war.
Therefore, the verses about loving your enemies are not about war.
Those verses are about personal conflict. Not national conflict.
Therefore, I ask you:
Do you apply those ideas of non-violence to verbal conflict in your daily life, as you would like to think they apply to physical violence?
Do you seek peace at all times, with all people you interact with?
Do you enjoy debate? Do you try to tangle with opponents over ideas and words?
If you do, then you are not a true pacifist, as God requires.
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John Hyperspace
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Did you have a verse supporting your philosophy of "killing in the name of Jesus"? Or is it in your mind sufficient that you can simply undermine scripture by saying "proof text theology" and then offering the opposite of scripture as, what? True theology, no scripture necessary?
I never have, nor ever will call the police. I do accept everything as the will of God; and acknowledge all as "fortunate" (especially the "bad")
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PollyJetix
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Or if they would be happy to live in a country where no Christians ever were allowed to take part in enforcing laws?
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John Hyperspace
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I am not.
The law also said "eye for eye, tooth for tooth": do you abide by that law, since you endorse the law of Moses for your actions? Exodus 21:24, Leviticus 24:20, Deuteronomy 19:21. But Jesus said: Matthew 5:38-39. Who do you follow, Moses or Jesus? Old covenant or new? John 1:17, John 5:45
I am commanded to engage in spiritual warfare; not carnal warfare: 2 Corinthians 10:3-4. This thread is about carnal killing of others, and it is wrong, and not of the Holy Spirit. Luke 9:54-56
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PollyJetix
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John Hyperspace, you are taking those verses out of the context of the Law, which, as God's moral code, still stands.
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PollyJetix
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I agree, that killing your personal enemies is wrong.
However, physical killing is not the only kind of violence we are warned about.
Philippians 2:3
"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves."
James 3:14-16
"But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work."
Look carefully at those verses.
You claim to be a pacifist.
How much of a pacifist are you, if you allow for debate, but not for physical war?
After all, Jesus said that it's not the things on the outside that defile someone, but that which is on the inside.
Do you fight with words?
Then you aren't a true pacifist.
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You must have me confused with six other guys I don't have a a philosophy of "killing in the name of Jesus" but I will do everything legally and morally necessary to protect myself, my family and any others who may need it. I will not stand by doing nothing and watch innocent people be brutalized by anyone of any persuasion. And I am absolutely convinced that that is just fine with Jesus.
I don't happen to agree with that philosophy.
Recently I accidentally saw a video of a Muslim beheading. I thought the video would end before the actual beheading. A big burly guy dressed in black with a big sword, only his eyes showing filled the screen. Some other guys dressed the same way led a young man out who was blindfolded and his hands were tied. Big guy made him kneel and pushed his head down to the correct position a few times. The victim kept raising his head. I thought the video would end but bam it happened. One of the guys dragged the headless body back to a pile of bodies and they led out another victim. The crowd was screaming "allah hu akhbar"[god is great] and "inshallah"[the will of god]
Muslims justify all their evil with "Inshallah." The will of god. That is absolutely not the will of god.
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John Hyperspace
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Then I'm not a true pacifist as you define the words. I am confident popular definition (by which all words are defined in popular useage) of "pacifist" means causing no physical harm to another, especially killing them.
But, I engage in abstract warfare, which is condoned (even commanded) in new covenant teachings.
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PollyJetix
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Baseless?
My proposition that the moral code of the Law forever stands as the perfect revelation of God's standard for human behavior?
Here is the basis:
Matthew 5:17,18 Jesus said not one jot or tittle would pass from the Law while heaven and earth stand.
Romans 7:7 Paul said he could not have known what sin was, outside of the Law. And this is in the New Dispensation.
Romans 7:12 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." --even under the New covenant!
Romans 8:4 The righteousness of the LAW is fulfilled in us, who are in Christ!
1 Timothy 1:8-11 The law is good, if it is used correctly... because the condemnation of the law is on the lawless and disobedient... according to the Gospel!
James 2:9 James tells the church that if they have respect of persons, they are under the condemnation of the law! This is NT!
And to top it all off, John says in 1 John 3:4, that the NEW TESTAMENT definition of sin is this:
"Sin is the transgression of the Law."
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John Hyperspace
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I was answering the question from a biblical standpoint. What you would or would not do is irrelevant to me. Now, I will say that if I saw people being brutalized (especially women or children) and they were in danger of serious harm; I would want to render no harm to any involved, but plead with them to cease but would probably end up killing the person brutalizing them. If you were standing by, you could feel free to then say "You said it was wrong to kill others" and I would wipe the blood from my brow and say "It is; and I have done wrong."
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Willfully avoiding Christ defending the home? You do see him defending his Fathers home right? being upset over those worshiping being basically robbed ? and using a whip to clear the place ..using the force necessary to do it?
So because he did not take it to the level of killing well he actually would go that far depending on the circumstances and would allow it
Here is an example I mix of stealing and lying by holding back money and then lying on top of it
holy ghost who is of course part of the trinity and Christ is obviously in agreement with the DEATH
SO YES ..Jesus WOULD even put someone to death if the need is required
.We can indeed use as much force necessary to prevent robbers thieves and protecting loved ones.
Ananias and Sapphira5 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2 With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself
3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart and"that you have lied to the Holy Spirit have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?4. Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold didn't the money belong to you at your disposal What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.
5 When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died.
later his wife also died for the same reasons encase you think he just simply had some sort of a heart attack and was not a judgement from God
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PollyJetix
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But God calls verbal warfare, carnal.
James 3:13-16
It's not my own definition. It's God's.
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John Hyperspace
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Then why do you suppose Jesus said: Matthew 5:38-39. Also are you saying we should stone our children to death if they are disobedient? Are we sinning for not stoning children?
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