Searching for the authentic Jesus ( the Messiah)

Peccavi44

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As a Christian for many years I have been troubled and disappointed by many who call themselves "Christians" who choose to follow Pauline teaching set against that of Jesus. It is quite clear to me from Acts and other historical evidence that there was a split among the earliest followers of Jesus between those who followed Paul and Greek theology and those who followed James and Jewish theology. I tend towards the latter.
 

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As a Christian for many years I have been troubled and disappointed by many who call themselves "Christians" who choose to follow Pauline teaching set against that of Jesus. It is quite clear to me from Acts and other historical evidence that there was a split among the earliest followers of Jesus between those who followed Paul and Greek theology and those who followed James and Jewish theology. I tend towards the latter.

So, Pal tught against Jesus? OK, I'll bite.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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As a Christian for many years I have been troubled and disappointed by many who call themselves "Christians" who choose to follow Pauline teaching set against that of Jesus. It is quite clear to me from Acts and other historical evidence that there was a split among the earliest followers of Jesus between those who followed Paul and Greek theology and those who followed James and Jewish theology. I tend towards the latter.

Hello Peccavi44, and welcome to CF!

You're probably the third or fourth person I've run into here at CF who has a distaste for Paul and thinks he isn't compatible with Jesus or James. And if that is the case, I just want you to know upfront that most here will probably not see eye-to-eye with you. But, I do understand that everyone is where they are in their journey of faith, that they have read their own set of books for consideration, and have their own conceptions about what is most truthful. So, with that in mind, you'll find a lot to talk about here. But, just remember where you are, Peccavi.

Glad you're here.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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Peccavi44

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I am aware that I am in a minority here and I am sensitive to others feelings. I am not a Christian but I am a follower of Jesus the Messiah - the chosen one of God. But I lean towards the Jewishness of Jesus and his disciples. I am aware that the translations of the Bible have in place conflicting versions because key words have prove difficult or illusive to translate. The older I get the more I realise how little we really know about the past and how many errors we have made in reconstructing it. I have no intention of challenging anothers faith simply asking questions.
 
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JESUS=G.O.A.T

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As a Christian for many years I have been troubled and disappointed by many who call themselves "Christians" who choose to follow Pauline teaching set against that of Jesus. It is quite clear to me from Acts and other historical evidence that there was a split among the earliest followers of Jesus between those who followed Paul and Greek theology and those who followed James and Jewish theology. I tend towards the latter.
why is everyone on this website anti-paul?????? Like dang put some respect on his name!


No in all seriousness though welcome to CF, and yeah there are quite a bit on this site that are anti-paul. I've never heard the argument that Paul followed greek mythology though can I request your source just to see where you've read this at if you have it? Not gonna debate with you this is a welcome post and I welcome you, I just want to read it is all.
 
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FireDragon76

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As a Christian for many years I have been troubled and disappointed by many who call themselves "Christians" who choose to follow Pauline teaching set against that of Jesus. It is quite clear to me from Acts and other historical evidence that there was a split among the earliest followers of Jesus between those who followed Paul and Greek theology and those who followed James and Jewish theology. I tend towards the latter.

I don't think there is as much tension as you assume. Reading the two through a western, modernist lense creates that tension.
 
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Ken Rank

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As a Christian for many years I have been troubled and disappointed by many who call themselves "Christians" who choose to follow Pauline teaching set against that of Jesus. It is quite clear to me from Acts and other historical evidence that there was a split among the earliest followers of Jesus between those who followed Paul and Greek theology and those who followed James and Jewish theology. I tend towards the latter.
While I agree that another Jesus is preached today (mostly unknowingly, this is something people are born into... it isn't rebellion)... I disagree that Paul preaches against the Torah or the true Yeshua of the first century. The lens through which Christianity reads Paul, coupled with a lack of understanding concerning Paul's use of certain exegetical tools AND the lack of understanding in terms of knowing the difference between when Paul writes about God's Law and Jewish halacha..... is why we end up with a dispensational, Greek thinking Paul. But when you understand the language nuances he uses, the exegetical tools, first century context and more... Paul is very pro-Torah. It is all in how he is read.... but knowing what I know now... Paul was very much a pro-Torah Jewish rabbi.
 
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FireDragon76

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Let's put it this way, the western concept of righteousness or justice as something that exists independent of concrete acts is the root of the issue. The idea of being just without actually doing justice is completely contrary to most cultures ideas of justice. And this is not what Paul is arguing for in Romans and his other epistles.

I know in Chinese, the idea of justice (yi) has everything to do with proper action relative to ones relationships. It is not some abstraction, like it is in much of western thought. My understanding is that in Judaism, tsedeq is similar, it has to do with ones behavior towards society and towards God.

We are really starting to see a shift in this western view of justice, especially on the left and among academics, but we still have centuries of viewing righteousness as an abstract state of being applied to an abstract humanity.
 
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AJTruth

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As a Christian for many years I have been troubled and disappointed by many who call themselves "Christians" who choose to follow Pauline teaching set against that of Jesus. It is quite clear to me from Acts and other historical evidence that there was a split among the earliest followers of Jesus between those who followed Paul and Greek theology and those who followed James and Jewish theology. I tend towards the latter.

Most Christians today don't understand the difference between the Gospel of the Kingdom, which Jesus & the 12 preached was """to & exclusively for""" the Nation of Israel. And the Gospel of the Grace of God, which was preached by Paul to the Gentiles. Two completely different messages given under the same Headship of the same God.

The epistles of James, Peter, John, Jude. Are each part & parcel of the Old Testament prophetic program laid out collectively for the Nation of Israel. Written to Jewish believers of the Kingdom economy.
(FOOTNOTE: THE BOOK OF JAMES IS WRITTEN BEFORE THE COUNCIL AT JERUSALEM Acts 15. JAMES MESSAGE TAKES A MOMENTIS CHANGE THERE)

There is nothing in the Jewish epistles about the resurrection, which is central to our salvation. Or about Body of Christ, which NT believers have been baptized into via the Holy Spirit.

The Jewish epistles are preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom. Taught by John the Baptist, Jesus during His earthly ministry & by the Twelve. Their salvation was collectively based upon believing that Jesus was Israel’s promised Messiah, (Matt 16:16; Jn 11:27; Acts 8:37).

John the Baptist, Jesus, & the 12 preached the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM (Matt 3.2, 4.17).

The Kingdom Gospel is that Jesus was the Messiah. He was the Son of God. Messiah was offering Israel the glories of the earthly Kingdom, promised all the way up through the Old Testament.

This gospel was the prophesied good news that the King of Israel would arrive. Establish His kingdom on earth & rule the earth according to what Israel’s prophets foretold (Ps 2.6, 8; Zec 14.9; Lk 1.31-33). During this kingdom reign, God would fulfill His covenant promises to Israel. Every God fearing Jew knew & longed for it.

It required repentance, they were to repent from turning away from God. And from breaking covenant with God (Jer 3:32). Water baptism was commonly practiced, Jewish purification doctrine. The Baptist & Peter both proclaim repent & be baptized FOR THE REMISSION OF SIN!

Even though the 12 had been plainly told by Messiah before hand. The apostles did not understand that Messiah was going to die or rise from the dead. (Matt 16:21-22, Lk 18:33-34, & Jn 20:9)

Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
(GOD SENT JESUS TO BE BORN OF A WOMAN, UNDER THE LAW. JESUS PREACHED, TAUGHT & KEPT ALL THE LAW)

Matt 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
(DON'T go to GENTILES!)

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
(Jesus is sent, & sends his disciples, to the lost sheep of the house of Israel ONLY)

Matt 15:24 But Jesus answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
(Jesus teaches; He has been sent, ONLY, to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

25 Then came she (Greek/gentile,) and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's (Jews) bread, and to cast it to dogs (Gentiles).
(Pre-cross, Jews often referred to Gentiles as "dogs". (See Matt 7:6; Lk 16:21) Non-Jews were considered so ungodly, even being in their presence could make a person ceremonially unclean (Jn 18:28). Post cross, Paul confronts/calls out Peter Gal 2:11-13, for keeping this tradition)

Acts 10:28 Peter said unto them, Ye know how that it is an """unlawful""" thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
(PETER TELLS CORNELIUS THE GENTILS CENTURION. """IT'S UNLAWFUL""" FOR A JEW TO KEEP COMPANY WITH GENTILES)

Rom 15:8 """Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision""" for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
(Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision""" THE CIRCUMCISION = JEWS ONLY!)

PENTECOST TEMPLE MT: """A MANDATORY PILGRIMAGE FEAST""" JEWS FROM ALL OVER WORLD ASSEMBLED TOGETHER
Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
(YE MEN OF JUDAEH & JERUSALEM, NO GENTILES HERE)

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know
(PETER SAYS, YE MEN OF ISRAEL)

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
(PETER SAYS, LET ALL THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL KNOW)

At this point in time, NO ONE knows. That the gospel will be open/offered to gentiles. Its 7 years before the RISEN LORD sends Peter to the gentile Cornelius house (Acts 10). Or that the RISEN LORD will choose & send Paul, to the gentiles, with the gospel of grace.

Old Testament points to a promised savior. The 4 gospels proclaim the saviors arrival.

For the Jews Christ’s death was not good news. Even after Jesus’ resurrection Christ’s death was not preached as good news.

Peter’s sermons demonstrated he regarded the death of Christ as a message of condemnation to Jews. A heinous act that demanded repentance (Acts 2.22-42, 3.12-26).
(Peter did not preach/teach that belief in the death, burial & resurrection of Christ leads to salvation)

Acts is a transitional book. The first half is tied to OT promises. In the second half of Acts. Paul receives his GOSPEL OF GRACE message from the ASCENDED, GLORIFIED LORD JESUS CHRIST (as opposed to earthly Jesus earthly kingdom message)

The Jewish epistles are a continuation of the Old Testament prophecies. They give no concept that a coming Church Age that will intervene. There is no new testament church language in these epistles, even though we’re dealing with the same God.

Paul is now CHOSEN & SENT to the GENTILES by the RESURRECTED, GLORIFIED, LORD JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF!

Paul is given & begins to preach the Gospel of Grace.(Acts 20:24)

MESSAGE THE RISEN LORD GIVES TO PAUL
Paul's message; is that FAITH in Jesus Sin Atoning Death, Burial & Resurrection leads to salvation (1 Cor 1:18, 15:1-4, 1 Tim 1:11, Rom 10:8-13)

The RISEN Lord gave Paul "a new gospel" (Gal 1:11-12). "Paul’s gospel of grace" (Acts 20:24) was different from the gospel of the Kingdom preached by Jesus & the 12. Rom 2:16, 16.25, Gal 1:2)

Its focus was not upon the identity of Messiah and His Kingdom and the Nation of Israel only. But, upon the sin atoning/sacrificial work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul’s gospel of grace was that Christ died for our sins & rose from the dead (1 Cor 15.1-4). This gospel of grace was not preached during Messiah's earthly ministry by Messiah's or His 12 chosen apostles

Paul referred to this gospel as "my gospel" (Rom 2:16, 16:25, 2 Tim 2:8, Gal 2:2). It was different from the gospel Jesus or the 12 preached. Luke’s Acts account of the Council of Jerusalem makes this clear (Acts 15)

Paul revealed that his gospel was a "secret" (Rom 16:25). Again: The 12 had "NO" understanding Jesus would die & rise from the dead (Lk 18.31-34; Jn 20.3-10

HERE'S WHY GOD KEPT THE GOSPEL OF GRACE, A SECRET:
1 Cor 2:7 We speak the wisdom of God in a mystery (secret), even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world

8 No prince of this world knew: if they had known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory
(IF SATAN, THE PRINCE OF THIS WORLD HAD KNOWN. JESUS WOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN CRUCIFIED)

After the Council at Jerusalem, only Paul’s gospel of grace message (Acts 20:24) was valid & supplanted. The gospel of the kingdom message formally preached by the 12.

JAMES, PETER, & JOHN SHAKE ON THE DEAL HERE:
Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision

Pre-Cross
The Gospel of the Kingdom was a collective message for the Nation of Israel only.

Post-Cross
The Gospel of Grace is an individually targeted message. Available to ALL, Jew or Gentile.

Council of Jerusalem:
Acts 15:13 And after they had held their peace (debate was over), James (debate moderator) said, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

14 Simeon (Peter) hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
(This verse finishes in verse 16)

15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
(After this: """AFTER WHAT?""" After God is finished His gentile outreach. Which culminates at the rapture. God will then return all focus on the Nation of Israel's restoration)

After the catching-up of Church (Thess 4:16). 144,000 Jews with be selected & and will again preach the Gospel of Kingdom. KING MESSIAH IS COMING.

The Apostle Paul gave us todays Church Age doctrine that leads gentiles to salvation in Christ
 
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Ken Rank

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Let's put it this way, the western concept of righteousness or justice as something that exists independent of concrete acts is the root of the issue. The idea of being just without actually doing justice is completely contrary to most cultures ideas of justice.

That is an outstanding summation, I hope others read it. Folks, if you look up the word righteous in the modern Webster's, it is defined as, "conforming to divine or social law." The idea of "social law" had been added over time, as the 1828 Webster's defines righteous as, "to conform to divine law." Likewise, the Greek and Hebrew words are in harmony with this concept, as is the ancient near east culture. You can't be righteous and sit on your rear unless you are defining the word according to western, modern, Christian culture. But you go back to the time of messiah, to be righteous through Christ was to live like Christ. Righteousness is an action, an action that is in harmony with the will of God.
 
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