Is it ever ok to kill our enemies in the name of Jesus?

John Hyperspace

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Yet I've seen even a dove fight to defend its nest.

I don't believe Jesus was intending His words to be lawyered in such a manner. The spirit is clear enough to my mind; Christians are to never hurt others, rendering "evil for evil": Romans 12:17, 1 Thessalonians 5:15, 1 Peter 3:9. Violence is never the answer, it only continues the loop of violence.

If an army attacks a country, then God has raised up that army to attack that country: Daniel 4:35, Isaiah 45:7, Amos 3:6: and resistance of these things would be tantamount to resistance to the will of God, and even fighting against God. When Jesus said "Take up your cross" He is meaning to submit to the will of God, especially in "bad things", as Jesus did not fight back, but instead committed Himself to God: 1 Peter 2:21-23
 
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Der Alte

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I don't believe Jesus was intending His words to be lawyered in such a manner.
Remember this phrase.
The spirit is clear enough to my mind; Christians are to never hurt others, rendering "evil for evil": Romans 12:17, 1 Thessalonians 5:15, 1 Peter 3:9. Violence is never the answer, it only continues the loop of violence.
If an army attacks a country, then God has raised up that army to attack that country:
Now this is lawyering God's words. Do you honestly believe that God raised up Taliban, Al Qaeda, Isis/Daesh, Boko Haram etc. to slaughter Christians in the middle east and Africa?
Daniel 4:35, Isaiah 45:7, Amos 3:6: and resistance of these things would be tantamount to resistance to the will of God, and even fighting against God. When Jesus said "Take up your cross" He is meaning to submit to the will of God, especially in "bad things", as Jesus did not fight back, but instead committed Himself to God: 1 Peter 2:21-23
Did Jesus condemn the Roman centurion who asked Jesus to heal his servant?
 
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Kevin Ambrose

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Christianity's roots are in Judaism, and Judaism is not a pacifist religion.
The OT has preserved that point very well indeed.

This is probably going to cause a lost of people to get angry but the more I look I into it the more I honestly believe that the radical pacifism we see today is strategically designed to weaken the defense of the West and our faith.

To be clear by radical pacifism I mean the sentiment that a man should pray while an invader rapes his wife and hope for divine intervention before he strangles her. I mean the type which says open the gates to the barbarians and let them burn your churches and enslave your children. The only people who benefit from this stance are those who wish to see the faith destroyed and replaced.
 
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SolomonVII

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This is probably going to cause a lost of people to get angry but the more I look I into it the more I honestly believe that the radical pacifism we see today is strategically designed to weaken the defense of the West and our faith.

To be clear by radical pacifism I mean the sentiment that a man should pray while an invader rapes his wife and hope for divine intervention before he strangles her. I mean the type which says open the gates to the barbarians and let them burn your churches and enslave your children. The only people who benefit from this stance are those who wish to see the faith destroyed and replaced.
There are a chosen few people in every age whose pacifism is an expression of their love. There are saints and angels among us.

By and large, the pacifism of today's left is an expression of their hate towards Western civilization. It is not based in love of the enemy, but hatred of our own selves. It is not a positive expression of the will to peace, but a nihilistic desire for western demise.

We are to admire the courage and passion of those saints and angels among us whose expression of love of humankind is even greater than their fear of death. There is nothing to admire in the cowardice of a people who are afraid to live, and wish for our demise at the hands of our enemies, spending their every breath to ensure that policies are put in place to bring about exactly those ends.
 
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Kevin Ambrose

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There are a chosen few people in every age whose pacifism is an expression of their love. There are saints and angels among us.

By and large, the pacifism of today's left is an expression of their hate towards Western civilization. It is not based in love of the enemy, but hatred of our own selves. It is not a positive expression of the will to peace, but a nihilistic desire for western demise.

We are to admire the courage and passion of those saints and angels among us whose expression of love of humankind is even greater than their fear of death. There is nothing to admire in the cowardice of a people who are afraid to live, and wish for our demise at the hands of our enemies, spending their every breath to ensure that policies are put in place to bring about exactly those ends.

I agree with this 100%. I will also note that I admire our Saints and Martyrs as the grandest example for us all as Christians.

But with that being said I cannot think of one who is revered for sacrificing anyone other than themselves. I can understand pacifism on a personal level in this respect. I cannot understand it when it puts innocent people at risk.
 
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Philip_B

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Matthew 10:16
See, I am sending you out like sheep into the midst of wolves; so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.​

I think that gives a little more perspective to what was being half quoted.

Martin Luther King Jnr - 30th August 1959 - in Montgomery Alabama
No, God is neither hard hearted nor soft minded He is tough minded enough to transcend the world He is tender hearted enough to be immanent in it-He leaves us not alone in our agonies and struggles He seek us in dark places and suffers with us and for us in our tragic prodigality​

The whole address is on this link, and a very good read.
http://okra.stanford.edu/transcript...6Scans/30Aug1959AToughMindandaTenderHeart.pdf

Lots of people want gentle Jesus meek and mild and the truth is that sometimes we need to know about the God of Justice calling us to turn and be saved, to rise up with wings like eagles.
 
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ldibart

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I don't believe Jesus was intending His words to be lawyered in such a manner. The spirit is clear enough to my mind; Christians are to never hurt others, rendering "evil for evil": Romans 12:17, 1 Thessalonians 5:15, 1 Peter 3:9. Violence is never the answer, it only continues the loop of violence.

If an army attacks a country, then God has raised up that army to attack that country: Daniel 4:35, Isaiah 45:7, Amos 3:6: and resistance of these things would be tantamount to resistance to the will of God, and even fighting against God. When Jesus said "Take up your cross" He is meaning to submit to the will of God, especially in "bad things", as Jesus did not fight back, but instead committed Himself to God: 1 Peter 2:21-23

well since we going by the OT the Jewish nation defended itself against the arab nations this was to fulfill prophecy that the jewish nation would indeed come again ..so do you think the Jews should have been wiped off the map instead?

God gave us common sense to use while we look at scripture Jesus over turned tables used a whip to get the people he called robbers out of his fathers house ..in defense of his fathers house and the people being robbed .The apostles carried swords and if this was not for defense then the apostle would not have gone chopping of an ear ..and he would have been CLEARLY told not too ...
and if the scripture was about all men that use a sword would die by a sword then that scripture is untrue and a lie as MANY have used weapons and MANY have not died by them

this was so the apostles did not set back jesus plan.

but to allow urself to be raped NO to allow ur family to be killed in front of you NO .. if its GODS ALMIGHTY will then why is it if you are to die some actually lived ..they must have totally confounded God by living if they god sent this person there to kill them same as in war .. why is it a nation can attack and lose hmmm.. i mean God Almighty sent them in right?
 
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ldibart

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I don't believe Jesus was intending His words to be lawyered in such a manner. The spirit is clear enough to my mind; Christians are to never hurt others, rendering "evil for evil": Romans 12:17, 1 Thessalonians 5:15, 1 Peter 3:9. Violence is never the answer, it only continues the loop of violence.

If an army attacks a country, then God has raised up that army to attack that country: Daniel 4:35, Isaiah 45:7, Amos 3:6: and resistance of these things would be tantamount to resistance to the will of God, and even fighting against God. When Jesus said "Take up your cross" He is meaning to submit to the will of God, especially in "bad things", as Jesus did not fight back, but instead committed Himself to God: 1 Peter 2:21-23
Its not lawyered up he did mean it he quite smart and understood a dove defends and fights as needed ..here is the dove in action Jesus .

Jesus Cleanses the Temple

(Matthew 21:12-17; Mark 11:15-19; Luke 19:45-48)



12After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.

13And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, 14And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: 15And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; 16And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
 
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ldibart

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Remember this phrase.

Now this is lawyering God's words. Do you honestly believe that God raised up Taliban, Al Qaeda, Isis/Daesh, Boko Haram etc. to slaughter Christians in the middle east and Africa?

Did Jesus condemn the Roman centurion who asked Jesus to heal his servant?

Yes exactly he never condemned him at all and even spoke of his faith!
I do not know what happened to churches and the teachings now .they even try to pull the subject yourself to the gov .. when WE are the Gov and if OUR gov does get out of line going against the foundation of our country we remove them since they represent US and replace ..so we are the government and GOD put us in place!

Matthew 8:5-13
 
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SolomonVII

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I agree with this 100%. I will also note that I admire our Saints and Martyrs as the grandest example for us all as Christians.

But with that being said I cannot think of one who is revered for sacrificing anyone other than themselves. I can understand pacifism on a personal level in this respect. I cannot understand it when it puts innocent people at risk.

Jesus Christ said:
While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
In fact, Jesus himself makes a point of noting how he kept all of his own safe and secure. Love involves self-sacrifice, but it never involves sacrificing others for your own cause.
 
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PollyJetix

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I believe that to correctly understand Jesus' words, we must understand the context of his life, and who he was talking to. He was not speaking in a vacuum. Everything He said was in the context of the Perfect Law of God.

Jesus Himself said he did not come to destroy the Law.
John says the definition of sin remains the same it was under the OT.
And Paul said that even in NT times, he could not have known sin, except for the Law.
And that the Law is a schoolmaster, to bring us to Christ.

The OT moral code was given to reveal God's moral standard.
God has not changed. His nature, His likes and dislikes, have all remained the same.
The Law was perfect as a moral standard.
Therefore, Jesus never could introduce to us a higher standard.
Everything Jesus said--even in the Sermon on the Mount--never contradicted or replaced the moral code of the Law, with a higher, more perfect moral code. In fact, everything Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount is actually found in the OT! Even "love your Enemies!"

We cannot obtain righteousness by obeying the Law.
That's why Jesus came; to completely wash away sin, which the Law could never do.
But the definition of sin remains the same.

Therefore, Jesus' words must be understood in the context of the OT moral code.

When God said, "Thou shalt not murder," He was NOT prohibiting war.
Instead, He commanded war!
He was not prohibiting the death penalty, either. After all, look how often God commanded His people carry out the death penalty.

Instead, "Thou shalt not murder" was talking about premeditated murder against your personal neighbor, or your fellow countryman.

When Jesus said "My kingdom is not of this world, if it were of this world, then would my servants fight" He finished his statement with a qualifier: "...that I should not be delivered to you."

In other words, every kingdom has to fight and make war. When we operate as citizens of this earth, we are part of earthly kingdoms, and have earthly citizenship.
When we operate as citizens of the kingdom of heaven, we must operate as ambassadors of the heavenly kingdom.

We hold dual citizenship. Paul used his Roman citizenship to avoid a beating, and on another occasion, he used it to shame those who had just beaten him and thrown him in jail.

The way I see it, God does not consider it sin, to fight in war, in defense of a righteous cause. But when in a situation that it's a personal wrong done to us, we are not to rise up and repay personal hurt. Defending others, such as our families... that's commanded in Scripture. God hates it when a strong person sits by and does not defend the weak.

I grew up in a very pacifist setting. Mennonites and Amish do not believe in even defending their families. But this warps people. I have seen, within that culture, where no one would stand up in defense of a handicapped person, when they were abused... because they were trained not to think in terms of defending others.
 
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John Hyperspace

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Now this is lawyering God's words. Do you honestly believe that God raised up Taliban, Al Qaeda, Isis/Daesh, Boko Haram etc. to slaughter Christians in the middle east and Africa?


Daniel 4:35, Isaiah 45:7, Amos 3:6


Did Jesus condemn the Roman centurion who asked Jesus to heal his servant?

Was the Roman centurion a disciple of Jesus, and under the new covenant?
 
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John Hyperspace

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Jesus is gonna do it. Remember he's gonna return on a war horse and with a sword?

Don't forget that Jesus will also have a sword shooting out of His mouth. Do you really expect to see a multi-headed creature rising up out of the sea, four colorful horses trotting along, and Jesus flying through the sky shooting a sword out of His mouth while treading a winepress? Advice: don't interpret symbolism literally: Revelation 2:16, Revelation 19:15, 2 Corinthians 10:3-4
 
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John Hyperspace

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Its not lawyered up he did mean it he quite smart and understood a dove defends and fights as needed

Harmless means harmless.

..here is the dove in action Jesus .

Jesus Cleanses the Temple

I do not see anyone being killed in the verses you cite. Perhaps you could cite a verse to support your doctrine of killing in the name of Jesus, by showing a passage where Jesus kills someone or commands His disciples to kill others?
 
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Der Alte

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Daniel 4:35, Isaiah 45:7, Amos 3:6
Doesn't really address my post does it.
Was the Roman centurion a disciple of Jesus, and under the new covenant?
Irrelevant. That is a common copout when folks can't address the instant point. Do you know why this response is irrelevant?
 
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Der Alte

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Harmless means harmless.
I do not see anyone being killed in the verses you cite. Perhaps you could cite a verse to support your doctrine of killing in the name of Jesus, by showing a passage where Jesus kills someone or commands His disciples to kill others?
Were Jesus' disciples under the OT law or the new covenant during Jesus' lifetime?
 
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