Praying to Mary???? or

DingDing · Feb 18, 2017

seashale76 said:
Kindly referring you back to post #64 (conveniently reposted below). For your sake, in an effort to keep your beliefs consistent, I hope you never ask anyone else to pray for you.

I am still alive, Mary is not. So you would pray for/to Mary who is dead but not for me who is alive?

seashale76 · Feb 18, 2017

DingDing said:
I am still alive, Mary is not. So you would pray for/to Mary who is dead but not for me who is alive?

Posting this again. Perhaps you are not understanding that these scriptures are literal. Christ was not speaking metaphorically.

I don't know about you, but my God is the God of the living and not the dead.

John 6:47-51
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

John 5:25-29
Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 27:51-53
And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked, rocks were split, tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

John 11:23-27
Jesus said to her, Your brother will rise. Martha said to him, I know he will rise, in the resurrection on the last day.

Jesus told her, I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this? She said to him, Yes, Lord. I have come to believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, ...

Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.

Luke 20:38
and he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.

Revelation 21:27
but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lambs book of life.

John 8:51
Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever keeps my word will never see death.

DingDing · Feb 18, 2017

DingDing said:
I am still alive, Mary is not. So you would pray for/to Mary who is dead but not for me who is alive?

seashale76 said:
Posting this again. ...

So, again, you would pray to/for Mary who is dead, and not for me who is alive?

RaymondG · Feb 18, 2017

seashale76 said:
Posting this again. Perhaps you are not understanding that these scriptures are literal. Christ was not speaking metaphorically.

I don't know about you, but my God is the God of the living and not the dead.

John 6:47-51
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

John 5:25-29
Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 27:51-53
And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked, rocks were split, tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

John 11:23-27
Jesus said to her, Your brother will rise. Martha said to him, I know he will rise, in the resurrection on the last day.

Jesus told her, I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this? She said to him, Yes, Lord. I have come to believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, ...

Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.

Luke 20:38
and he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.

Revelation 21:27
but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lambs book of life.

John 8:51
Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever keeps my word will never see death.

I like your views on living vs. dead. Are you also of the mind that the "saved" too, will not die? Also, what are your views on the Salvation process? e.g. How does someone become "Saved"

seashale76 · Feb 18, 2017

DingDing said:
So, again, you would pray to/for Mary who is dead, and not for me who is alive?

Scroll up and read post 157 that is a repost of post 63. It is obvious to me that you did not read it or you would not ask me any such thing.

Also, Mary, the Theotokos, is alive in Christ. Christ Our God has defeated sin and death and there are numerous scriptures that attest to the fact that the saints are not dead.

seashale76 · Feb 18, 2017

RaymondG said:
I like your views on living vs. dead. Are you also of the mind that the "saved" too, will not die? Also, what are your views on the Salvation process? e.g. How does someone become "Saved"

You need a faith that works. Faith is something of an action word. It's continuous, and it isn't a one moment in time deal. Faith is not merely an intellectual assent to a belief in God. You are saved at your baptism into Christ, you are being saved through life in the Church and partaking of the sacraments, and you will be saved at the Final Judgment.

Salvation is having faith in Christ, receiving the indwelling/gift of the Holy Spirit, and coming to a knowledge of God the Father. Yes, we have faith, but it is a gift by the grace of God, and it is actually God's mercy (and not our faith) that saves us. God draws us to Himself. Salvation (theosis) is becoming by grace what God is by nature- not becoming God in essence but participating in His energies.

A life in Christ is a journey to us. We don't attempt to break things down, but see things holistically.

RaymondG · Feb 18, 2017

seashale76 said:
You need a faith that works. Faith is something of an action word. It's continuous, and it isn't a one moment in time deal. Faith is not merely an intellectual assent to a belief in God. You are saved at your baptism into Christ, you are being saved through life in the Church and partaking of the sacraments, and you will be saved at the Final Judgment.

Salvation is having faith in Christ, receiving the indwelling/gift of the Holy Spirit, and coming to a knowledge of God the Father. Yes, we have faith, but it is a gift by the grace of God, and it is actually God's mercy (and not our faith) that saves us. God draws us to Himself. Salvation (theosis) is becoming by grace what God is by nature- not becoming God in essence but participating in His energies.

A life in Christ is a journey to us. We don't attempt to break things down, but see things holistically.

Thanks for your perspective... My God bless you on your journey to heaven.

DingDing · Feb 18, 2017

seashale76 said:
... there are numerous scriptures that attest to the fact that the saints are not dead.

So you would rather pray for/to Noah rather than pray for me?

FenderTL5 · Feb 18, 2017

DingDing said:
So you would rather pray for/to Noah rather than pray for me?

If I may; given your stated beliefs, why would you even ask someone else to pray for you? Wouldn't that violate your understanding of one mediator?

seashale76 · Feb 18, 2017

DingDing said:
So you would rather pray for/to Noah rather than pray for me?

Still haven't bothered to read my posts, I see. Where did you fail to comprehend? Precisely what about this post is unclear to you and doesn't answer your question? To help, I'll repost my post 63 again for you:

I pray thee, to hearken unto my post.

There are around six different Greek words that are usually translated into English as 'prayer'. These words encompass supplications, interecessions, thanksgiving, etc. Prayer to the saints IS NOT WORSHIP! I Timothy 2:4 upholds the practice of intercession for others, and we are quite cognizant of the fact that Christ's mediation is what makes intercession possible.

The saints are alive in Christ. Mary, the Theotokos (God bearer) does intercede for us through prayer, as do ALL the saints. When a person asks the Theotokos, or any other saint, to pray for them, it is just like when we ask for anyone else to pray for us. Those in the Church are ALIVE in Christ, because God is the God of the living and not the dead.

As the Paschal Troparion says: Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life!

Scriptures relating to saints being alive in Christ, et cetera:

John 6:47-51
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

John 5:25-29
Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 27:51-53
And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked, rocks were split, tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

John 11:23-27
Jesus said to her, Your brother will rise. Martha said to him, I know he will rise, in the resurrection on the last day.

Jesus told her, I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this? She said to him, Yes, Lord. I have come to believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, ...

Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.

Luke 20:38
and he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.

Revelation 21:27
but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lambs book of life.

John 8:51
Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever keeps my word will never see death.

Revelation 5:8-10
and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints; and they sang a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals, for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God from every tribe and tongue and people and nation,10 and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on earth.

Revelation 11:16-18
And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying, We give thanks to thee, Lord God Almighty, who art and who wast, that thou hast taken thy great power and begun to reign. The nations raged, but thy wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, for rewarding thy servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear thy name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.

Hebrews 12:1
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us"

Luke 15:7
I tell you, in just the same way there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need of repentance.

Hebrews 12:22-23"No, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering,
and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect,"

Revelation 8:3
I saw another angel who came and stood before the altar holding a golden censer and much incense was given to him that he might add it to the prayers of the saints upon the golden altar that was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense with the prayers of the saints went up before God out of the angels hand. And the angel took the censer and he filled it with the fire from the altar and threw it to the earth and there followed peals of thunder, and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake."

Also, on a related note, we don't pray to the dead but for the dead. Scripture supports it.

2 Maccabees 12:38-45
38 After the battle Judas led his men to the town of Adullam. It was the day before the Sabbath, so they purified themselves according to Jewish custom and then observed the holy day. 39 By the following day it was urgent that they gather up the bodies of the men who had been killed in battle and bury them in their family tombs. 40 But on each of the dead, hidden under their clothes, they found small images of the gods worshiped in Jamnia, which the Law forbids Jews to wear. Everyone then knew why these men had been killed. 41 So they praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge, who reveals what is hidden, 42 and they begged him that this sin might be completely blotted out. Then, Judas, that great man, urged the people to keep away from sin, because they had seen for themselves what had happened to those men who had sinned. 43 He also took up a collection from all his men, totaling about four pounds of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. Judas did this noble thing because he believed in the resurrection of the dead. 44 If he had not believed that the dead would be raised, it would have been foolish and useless to pray for them. 45 In his firm and devout conviction that all of God's faithful people would receive a wonderful reward, Judas made provision for a sin offering to set free from their sin those who had died.

This is considered to be a direct reference to a prayer for a departed person in the NT:

2 Timothy 1:16-18
16 May the Lord show mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains. 17 On the contrary, when he was in Rome, he searched hard for me until he found me. 18 May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus.

So, there you have it. The saints are not only alive in Christ, but we also pray for the departed. Scripture supports this and some of us take this seriously and literally. Believe it or not, just don't make the mistake of claiming we're doing something we really aren't doing, such as not going directly to God in prayer, because we very much do.

Your Alli · Feb 18, 2017

RaymondG said:
So praying in the name of Jesus, to you, means to say "In the name of Jesus" after you are done praying?

Very cautious area ...

Although I'll respect in Jesus' name ...
He remains Lord, so I minimise using His name without much thought and consideration.

Let's say I have a friend name Mary ...
My pray to God the Father for Mary is as follows ...

"I thank You, for Mary, in your name, I pray my Lord. #Amen".

This pray meets all the criterias I mentioned above.

Your Alli

Lukaris · Feb 18, 2017

DingDing said:
So you would rather pray for/to Noah rather than pray for me?

As Christians we should realize that when praying the Lord's prayer in light of the golden rule and the 2 great commands, we are praying for each other for everyone.

DingDing · Feb 18, 2017

Lukaris said:
As Christians we should realize that when praying the Lord's prayer in light of the golden rule and the 2 great commands, we are praying for each other for everyone.

Yea, but I don't pray to/for my dead relatives.

Solomons Porch · Feb 18, 2017

What is Maccabees?

seashale76 · Feb 18, 2017

Solomons Porch said:
What is Maccabees?

Part of the bible that all Christians accepted for most of the past 2000 years- until someone decided to remove it in the 1800s. Catholics, Orthodox, (and likely some others) still do accept the deuterocannon as scriptural.

ETA: Here is the list of the OT books in the Orthodox Church-

Old Testament:
Genesis
Exodus
Leviticus
Numbers
Deuteronomy
Joshua
Judges
Ruth
1 Kingdoms (1 Samuel)
2 Kingdoms (2 Samuel)
3 Kingdoms (1 Kings)
4 Kingdoms (2 Kings)
1 Chronicles
2 Chronicles
1 Ezra (2 Esdras)
2 Ezra (Ezra/2 Esdras)
Nehemiah
Tobit
Judith
Esther
1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees
3 Maccabees
Psalms
Job
Proverbs of Solomon
Ecclesiastes
Song of Songs
Wisdom of Solomon
Wisdom of Sirach
Hosea
Amos
Micah
Joel
Obadiah
Jonah
Nahum
Habakkuk
Zephaniah
Haggai
Zechariah
Malachi
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Baruch
Lamentations of Jeremiah
Epistle of Jeremiah
Ezekiel
Daniel

Brief snips of what they say about it in the Introduction to the Orthodox Study Bible (page XI) and Overview of the Books of the Bible- Old Testament (page XV):

"...Though the Orthodox Church has never officially committed itself to a single text and list of Old Testament books, it has tradtionally used the Greek Old Testaments of the Septuagint (LXX)..."

"...The organization of the Old Testament books, that is, their canonical order, was taken from The Old Testament According to the Seventy,published with the approval of the Holy Synod of the Church of Greece."

"...It is helpful to keep in mind that, like the earliest Christian community, the Orthodox Church of today continues using the Greek version of the Old Testament known as the Septuagint (LXX). The Septuagint-- referencing the seventy finest Jewish scholars, from all twelve Jewish tribes, who made the translation from the Hebrew into Greek-- became the universally accepted version of the Old Testament since the time of its appearance some three centuries before the birth of Christ. Our Lord Jesus Christ, together with His apostles and evangelists, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and also Peter and Paul, used this Greek version when quoting the Old Testament in their gospels and epistles. These inspired Old Testament books tell the story of God's dealings with ancient Israel, from approximately 2000 BC until the time of Jesus...(Bishop BASIL)"

Solomons Porch · Feb 18, 2017

seashale76 said:
Part of the bible that all Christians accepted for most of the past 2000 years- until someone decided to remove it in the 1800s. Catholics, Orthodox, (and likely some others) still do accept the deuterocannon as scriptural.

Do you know why they decided to remove it?

Lukaris · Feb 18, 2017

Solomons Porch said:
What is Maccabees?

These are books compiled from the Jewish revolt of the 2nd century BC against the pagan Greek authorities originally set up after Alexander the Great. In the 2nd Book of Maccabees chapter 10 is from where the Jewish tradition of Hanukkah is traced. The 1st two books are part of the Bible in the Orthodox & Catholic Churches; we include the 3rd book also in the Orthodox Bible. The 4th book is really an amazing homily of the martyrdom of a Jewish mother, her 7 sons, & a priest named Eleazar taken from chapter 7 of 2nd Maccabees. See also Books of the Maccabees - Wikipedia

The link mentions further books but I am unfamiliar of those.

FireDragon76 · Feb 18, 2017

Solomons Porch said:
Do you know why they decided to remove it?

Evangelical bible societies that were dominated by low-church sentiments opposed to the inclusion of the books, omitted them. People started accepting the dropping of the books as normal, and it became a trend in Protestant Bibles. But at one time it was normal to include these books even in Protestant nations. Luther's German Bible and the original King James Bible all contained these books in question, with some exceptions (eastern Christian Bibles usually have more books).

In the Lutheran and Anglican/Episcopalian traditions, the books are considered useful to read, can be used in lectionary readings and the source for liturgical proper prayers, but they aren't considered to be the basis for Church doctrines. The rationale for this is that St. Jerome is supposed to have said in an argument with a Jewish apologist, that they were books of questionable doctrinal authority. At one time it was also believed that these books were not especially Jewish and were therefore not authoritative, though this is something that has been disputed by some Protestant scholars- the overwhelming weight of Protestant traditions is not considering them as canonical.

seashale76 · Feb 18, 2017

Solomons Porch said:
Do you know why they decided to remove it?

Essentially, they removed anything they couldn't find the original Hebrew manuscripts for at the time, on the assumption that the Masoretic text had to be more authentic than the Septuagint. However, the apostles used the Septuagint, so their premise is flawed. Also, there is evidence to suggest that those that removed the books were influenced unduly by the exclusively Jewish Council of Jamnia of the first century (after the Church was already around). The Jews had been losing their own to Christianity and had a council only accepting the Masoretic text. However, it is obvious the Jews still do use books like Maccabees, otherwise they wouldn't celebrate things such as Hannukah.

Solomons Porch · Feb 18, 2017

seashale76 said:
Essentially, they removed anything they couldn't find the original Hebrew manuscripts for at the time, on the assumption that the Masoretic text had to be more authentic than the Septuagint. However, the apostles used the Septuagint, so their premise is flawed. Also, there is evidence to suggest that those that removed the books were influenced unduly by the exclusively Jewish Council of Jamnia of the first century (after the Church was already around). The Jews had been losing their own to Christianity and had a council only accepting the Masoretic text. However, it is obvious the Jews still do use books like Maccabees, otherwise they wouldn't celebrate things such as Hannukah.

Thank you

Praying to Mary???? or

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