JW question?

Albion

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It's entirely POSSIBLE that his stake could have been cross shaped... What they killed him with is completely irrelevant.

1914...they were overconfident in a possible meaning and were wrong. They also got overly excited in the 1960s or 1970s because mathmatically it was a significant anniversary...just pointed out that the bible says armageddon could come as a theif in the night and we should remain prepared at any time.

Jesus and Michael... So I'm careful to note that it's a POSSIBILITY, but I'm not attached to the idea.

There wouldn't seem to be any reason to go door to door telling Christian people that they're wrong--if, as you've explained here, it's OK to either take or leave all the distinctive doctrines that separate the JWs from other churches. (?)
 
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4x4toy

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I agree with where you're coming from. I think all of us would like to use the most correct version possible. The down side is that since language changes over time, the same four letters of the tetragrammeton can either be referred to as "Yod- He-Waw-He" ... or "Jod-He-Vav-He." YHWH (and therefore the most likely pronunciation of "Yahweh") isn't objectively "more correct" than JHVH or JHWH or YHVH... The hebrew language is very cool for a lot of things... but it's not exactly "precise" even today. (look up how to spell hannuka some time)

I don't disagree with you... just answering what the JW perspective is. I see that as an area that we could improve upon.

As far as John 1:1, I agree that "a god" is a kind of sloppy translation. As an anarthrous nominative predicate, the word is "qualitatively comparable to God" ... similar to if a situation seems "fishy" ... it's not THE fish... it's not even A fish... it's qualitatively described compared to a fish.

We could stick with "and the word was divine" ... but again, people typically use "divinity" to equate to "Being God" as opposed to just "A celestial spiritual being." English just doesn't really have a very clear way to communicate that specific idea. That's something JWs talk about quite a bit.

I understand the idea that "the word" could be a creative force rather than referring to the son's state of existance before his human form... and that's actually a whole interesting conversation. It's not the typical JW understanding, but it's not inherently unreasonable.

Wait a cotton pickin minute, I thought YHWH was un-pronounceable , who told or give you the authority to add vowels ? Do JWs know the only name man can call on for salvation ?
 
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tansy

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Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I think that JWs believe that Jesus (on earth) was not God incarnate? But through his sacrifice we are forgiven and can be redeemed?
I cannot see that anyone less than God Himself could ever be in a position to achieve what Jesus achieved.
 
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gadar perets

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I agree with where you're coming from. I think all of us would like to use the most correct version possible. The down side is that since language changes over time, the same four letters of the tetragrammeton can either be referred to as "Yod- He-Waw-He" ... or "Jod-He-Vav-He." YHWH (and therefore the most likely pronunciation of "Yahweh") isn't objectively "more correct" than JHVH or JHWH or YHVH... The hebrew language is very cool for a lot of things... but it's not exactly "precise" even today. (look up how to spell hannuka some time)
Josephus said the Name written on the high priest's mitre consisted of four vowels. They would be the four letters of the Tetragrammaton and vocalized as vowels. Therefore, a "V" and "J" would not be in the Name.
 
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gadar perets

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Wait a cotton pickin minute, I thought YHWH was un-pronounceable , . . .
The Name is definitely pronounceable, but certain men say it should never be pronounced. Of course, they are wrong. The reason the Almighty put His Name in Scripture is so that it WOULD be pronounced every time the Scriptures were read. To say it should not be pronounced is utter nonsense.
 
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gadar perets

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Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I think that JWs believe that Jesus (on earth) was not God incarnate? But through his sacrifice we are forgiven and can be redeemed?
I cannot see that anyone less than God Himself could ever be in a position to achieve what Jesus achieved.
They are correct. The Word teaches us that God sent His Son, not Himself. God cannot die, but the Son could.
 
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tansy

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They are correct. The Word teaches us that God sent His Son, not Himself. God cannot die, but the Son could.
Well, the physical body of Jesus could die. But if you're looking at it from that point of view, Jesus was the only-begotten Son of God and as such was surely inherently completely possessed of the divine nature. Born without sin etc. So even then, I firmly believe that only Jesus can bring redemption.
I think, again correct me if I'm wrong, that the JWs believe that Jesus was created, but I don't believe that he was.
 
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There wouldn't seem to be any reason to go door to door telling Christian people that they're wrong--if, as you've explained here, it's OK to either take or leave all the distinctive doctrines that separate the JWs from other churches. (?)

People should be civil to people even with distinctive differences. It's best for us to respect others who call themselves Christian, but peach things that seem contrary to the bible or even people who are outright aggressive against the possibility of God existing at all. But, there's a biblical guidance to go out and teach people and preach.

Distinctive doctrinal differences are important, but none should give us an excuse to treat others poorly. (This concept is taught in every religion, although for some reason it seems VERY difficult for people in every group)
 
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Wait a cotton pickin minute, I thought YHWH was un-pronounceable , who told or give you the authority to add vowels ? Do JWs know the only name man can call on for salvation ?

YHWH is just Hebrew... hebrew is a pretty old language with some excentricities. Now, we at least regularly use "vowel points" (a vowel system more similar to Korean than english)... but old hebrew was consonants only. No vowels, no punctuation. Not even any numbers (letters are used to represent the concept of numbers, similar to Roman numerals... that's why hebrew numerology is so popular... all words are a string of letters and therefore translatable as numbers.
 
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gadar perets

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Well, the physical body of Jesus could die. But if you're looking at it from that point of view, Jesus was the only-begotten Son of God and as such was surely inherently completely possessed of the divine nature. Born without sin etc. So even then, I firmly believe that only Jesus can bring redemption.
Yeshua was a 100% man. If God had sex with Mary, then perhaps the Son could be divine, but that is not how he came to be. The Father spoke the Son into existence (the logos - spoken words and thoughts of YHWH) became flesh.

I think, again correct me if I'm wrong, that the JWs believe that Jesus was created, but I don't believe that he was.
They believe he was created before anything else. I believe he was created in Mary's womb as a man. The NT calls Yeshua a "creature" or "creation" in Colossians 1:15. We are also told he was "made" several times.
 
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4x4toy

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YHWH is just Hebrew... hebrew is a pretty old language with some excentricities. Now, we at least regularly use "vowel points" (a vowel system more similar to Korean than english)... but old hebrew was consonants only. No vowels, no punctuation. Not even any numbers (letters are used to represent the concept of numbers, similar to Roman numerals... that's why hebrew numerology is so popular... all words are a string of letters and therefore translatable as numbers.

He told Moses he was the great I Am , To tell Pharoah that's who he is .. Jesus said "I Am" the way, the light and the Truth
 
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4x4toy

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Yeshua was a 100% man. If God had sex with Mary, then perhaps the Son could be divine, but that is not how he came to be. The Father spoke the Son into existence (the logos - spoken words and thoughts of YHWH) became flesh.


They believe he was created before anything else. I believe he was created in Mary's womb as a man. The NT calls Yeshua a "creature" or "creation" in Colossians 1:15. We are also told he was "made" several times.

The Holy Spirit over shadowed the virgin, and the Father calls the Son his only begotten .. See there, one God three persons ..
 
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tansy

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Yeshua was a 100% man. If God had sex with Mary, then perhaps the Son could be divine, but that is not how he came to be. The Father spoke the Son into existence (the logos - spoken words and thoughts of YHWH) became flesh.


They believe he was created before anything else. I believe he was created in Mary's womb as a man. The NT calls Yeshua a "creature" or "creation" in Colossians 1:15. We are also told he was "made" several times.

Haven't got time to check this out at the moment. It's one in the morning, must go to bed. However, my understanding is that Jesus was concieved by the Holy Spirit. Would you mind, if you have time, giving other chapter and verses where it says he was 'made', as I don't remember reading any that implies that. :)
 
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Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I think that JWs believe that Jesus (on earth) was not God incarnate? But through his sacrifice we are forgiven and can be redeemed?
I cannot see that anyone less than God Himself could ever be in a position to achieve what Jesus achieved.

Thank you for respectful perspective!

Was it God's sin in the garden of eden that started all this suffering? JWs would point to the fact that a perfect man with no excuse for sin... still chose to. The wages of sin is death, so each sinner can pay the price of their own sin when they die, but humanity would be doomed because everyone would start out corrupted by sin, therefore no one would have a hope to live as God intended. Adam's sin is the leftover balance no imperfect person could ever pay for, so all that would technically be needed would be the sacrifice of a human not touched by sin from the beginning. The problem is a person corrupted by sin can not yield a sinless offspring, which is why Jesus had to be sent, to live a life without sin, and sacrifice that sinless life to pay our debt.

Besides, is it really easier to consider the concept that God Himself is capable of dying? And if he could, that the universe would continue on fine without him?

I know that's not going to "convince you" of anything, and that's not my intent because it's not up to me to change your mind... but does that help you understand why we hold our perspective?
 
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The Name is definitely pronounceable, but certain men say it should never be pronounced. Of course, they are wrong. The reason the Almighty put His Name in Scripture is so that it WOULD be pronounced every time the Scriptures were read. To say it should not be pronounced is utter nonsense.
One of the most concerningly ironic scriptures in most translation is Jeremiah 16:21 Where God himself says - Therefore, behold, I will this once cause them to know, I will cause them to know mine hand and my might; and they shall know that my name is *deleted in this bible.
 
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4x4toy

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Thank you for respectful perspective!

Was it God's sin in the garden of eden that started all this suffering? JWs would point to the fact that a perfect man with no excuse for sin... still chose to. The wages of sin is death, so each sinner can pay the price of their own sin when they die, but humanity would be doomed because everyone would start out corrupted by sin, therefore no one would have a hope to live as God intended. Adam's sin is the leftover balance no imperfect person could ever pay for, so all that would technically be needed would be the sacrifice of a human not touched by sin from the beginning. The problem is a person corrupted by sin can not yield a sinless offspring, which is why Jesus had to be sent, to live a life without sin, and sacrifice that sinless life to pay our debt.

Besides, is it really easier to consider the concept that God Himself is capable of dying? And if he could, that the universe would continue on fine without him?

I know that's not going to "convince you" of anything, and that's not my intent because it's not up to me to change your mind... but does that help you understand why we hold our perspective?

We are created eternal beings in a flesh body that is born to die, spiritual death is not ceasing to exist, it is existing eternal out of the presence of God . There is no work or personal goodness that can qualify or excuse, only faith in Jesus .. He alone is worthy ..
 
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gadar perets

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He told Moses he was the great I Am , To tell Pharoah that's who he is .. Jesus said "I Am" the way, the light and the Truth
The blind man said "I am" (ego eimi) in John 9:9.
 
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gadar perets

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The Holy Spirit over shadowed the virgin, and the Father calls the Son his only begotten .. See there, one God three persons ..
I see the one God (Father YHWH). I see the power of YHWH (the Holy Spirit) and I see the Son. That is two "persons" and one God.
 
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Arthra

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it seems this is the only forum I'm allowed to make posts in. The site isn't "super friendly" toward JWs

That is rather sad... and unfortunate.. I know how you feel and have similarly feel restricted at times.
 
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gadar perets

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Haven't got time to check this out at the moment. It's one in the morning, must go to bed. However, my understanding is that Jesus was concieved by the Holy Spirit. Would you mind, if you have time, giving other chapter and verses where it says he was 'made', as I don't remember reading any that implies that. :)
John 1:14 And the word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Yeshua Messiah our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:​
 
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