New Heaven and New Earth

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Amil
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So winter is from the fall?
Not necessarily. It's pure speculation of course but I believe in the water canopy theory that came down during Noah's flood. So then winter is not due to the fall, but due to the flood.
 
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Sammy-San

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Not necessarily. It's pure speculation of course but I believe in the water canopy theory that came down during Noah's flood. So then winter is not due to the fall, but due to the flood.

Same with deserts? What other biomes do you think didn't exist before the Flood?
 
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GodB4S

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I don't believe we should be taking the references to "heaven and earth" literally. Look at how Paul expresses being in Christ: 2 Corinthians 5:17. Now, all things aren't literally passing away, we are not literally "made new". It's a metaphor. Otherwise everyone would miraculously become babies again.



It is a question of, what does "backsliding" mean? I believe we're talking about people backsliding from justification through grace, back into justification through law. This was a big problem in the early church as evidenced through Paul's continual warnings that anyone trying to justify themselves through the law were "falling from grace" and "drawing back into perdition" and "departing the faith"

Usually when people say "backsliding" they are meaning something like, a person who quits drinking, starts drinking again. I do not believe this is what "backsliding" means in scripture; but that in scripture, backsliding is leaving faith in Christ for justified, and attempting to do "works of the law" in order to be justified. In other words, someone who drinks and has faith in Christ for sanctification, justification is in a state of grace; if that man then believes he himself must "try" to stop drinking in order to be saved, he has backslidden from grace into law and has fallen from grace. He is no longer clean by the work of Christ, but has returned to the former filth of his own works for justification/sanctification/salvation.



I believe "it takes effort and strides" is backsliding into perdition; the wide path to destruction; and falling from grace. Effort implies work on your part, which implies a reward reckoned of debt and not of grace. The scripture never says "try to be obedient" or "take strides to get rid of sin" or anything similar. The law doesn't say "try your best to live in these commands" it says "live them or die"

I believe there are two ways: the way to life is to accept the grace of God, and be patient for God to do His work in perfecting us, which He does and will: the way to death, accept the grace of God, then backslide into "rule-keeping" of your own will and power (which will never do anything but condemn you for breaking the rules)



The sabbath is spiritually fulfilled in Christ. Hebrews 4:9-11. The Sabbath in the rest of Christ is cessation from works of our own: Romans 4:5. If a man works his own works he is guilty of profaning the rest(sabbath) in Christ. The difference is, who is doing the works? You, or, God? In other words, a man can either say "You must do your own works to be saved/sanctified/justified" or "Faith in the work of God will save/sanctify/justify" - the former is way of death, the latter is the way of life. Meaning, if you say "I am trying to be perfect" then you are by your own words, not perfect. If you are saying "I am trying to be holy" then you by your own words are not holy. If you say "By His perfection I am made perfect" or "By His holiness, I am made holy" then there is no "trying" no "failing"

My reply is: Jesus said to the woman "...Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." Was Jesus saying she could not do it so live by grace and God will do it? Or she could go and sin no more?

If you are a new creature, "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law...Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: ye, we establish the law." If Abraham did grace of the church today his son would of never gone to the altar but his work of his faith made him righteous and God knew he love him better than his son by his work of put him on the altar and fixing to put the knife into him. Just because you believe does not show it. It is said John Concord walked the Niagara Falls on a tight rope with a wheelbarrow and he had gathered a crowd of people at the end. When he got there, they cheered him. He asked who believes I can do it blindfolded? Most all hands went up...John said "Get in the wheelbarrow!". None did. If they believed they would of got in the wheelbarrow. Later his manager got on his back and rode there to the other side for he believed he could do it...what kind of belief do we have? Do we watch what the LORD does or do we do what the LORD says to do? Are we servants or does the LORD be ours?
 
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GodB4S

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New Jerusalem is real..."And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel."

12000 furlongs=600 feet(furlong)x12,000=7,200,000 feet=1,363.636 miles the breadth, height and length of it...this earth could not support such a city! 1300 plus miles high is larger that USA is north to south...Florida to Wisconsin...with no sun for Jesus is the light there...no sea would be amazing but the crystal river will be coming from the throne of God next to the tree of life (maybe some fish in it) which makes me ask where does it go if no sea (maybe just enough for each person to enjoy)...golden streets, wearing gold makes you think of wearing asphalt when you read that! and many mansions makes a poor man a poor rich man!
 
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Dave Watchman

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Revelation 21:1-8King James Version (KJV) 21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Comment: bye bye fishies


2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Comment: many suggest this references a new Heaven floating over Earth. Another thing though that's important for us to understand is that this city will be holy... the bible says "sin not" for a reason. God also informs us that "we are not called unto uncleanness but unto Holiness" to emphasize this as well, it's intrinsic that we take strides to, "be ye perfect as your father in Heaven is perfect". "Being then made free from sin ye became the servants of righteousness." We gotta be pure man. This is reinforced in verse 8.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.


"And God said, “Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the heavens.” So God created the great sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind.

And God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” And there was evening and there was morning, the fifth day.

I think that at some point God, all of the holy angels, and all of the saints who have ever lived are going to fit nicely inside of a City that is 1500 miles square, or 1500 miles in all directions. Various calculations have been done that show that all of God's people who have ever lived and all the holy angels could have "mansions" on five acres of land with ceilings so high that they could have atmospheres and still there would be tons of space remaining left over inside of New Jerusalem.

So I think that we would easily all fit on a New Earth without having to forfeit the sea for the purpose of land reclamation.

He who was sitting on the Throne also said "Behold, I am making all things new". If He saw fit to make the sea creatures the first time, I can't imagine why they wouldn't be included under the "all things" umbrella, along with maybe my cat. And if He makes the fish again, they've got to have a sea to swim in.

Plus, I was hoping to have a boat on the new earth. It would be nice to have an ocean to float it on, a Caribbean to cruise it in.

So what does it mean "no more sea"?

We will enter the thousand years as a numberless multitude from every nation, every tribe, every people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb.

During the thousand years we will become directly acquainted with God, the angels, each other and even the lives of the lost as we assist in a feature of their judgement. Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? Do you not know that we are to judge angels?

After the thousand years are completed, we won't be quite the same as individual peoples as we were when the thousand years began. We will all be on the same page, there won't be a division of nations.

"And they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God"

We will be One People, His People, and God Himself will be with us as Our God. There's no longer a diverse group of many nations, tribes, peoples and languages anymore as there were when John saw the "beast" rise up out of the "sea".

John didn't really see a literal sea that a beast rose up out of, it was the troubled "sea" of humanity, the diverse group of many nations and languages from around the world.

"And the angel said to me, “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages.

But after the thousand years are finished there will be no more of these "waters", no more "sea".

"They will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God"

"He who was sitting on the Throne also said "Behold, I am making all things new".

"And God said, “Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the heavens.” So God created the great sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind.

""Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:


"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"

f830394ea2b069165ab206b086ebadcd.jpg


KillerWhaleSunset_117148882.jpg


Peaceful Sabbath.
 
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JESUS=G.O.A.T

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"And God said, “Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the heavens.” So God created the great sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind.

And God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” And there was evening and there was morning, the fifth day.

I think that at some point God, all of the holy angels, and all of the saints who have ever lived are going to fit nicely inside of a City that is 1500 miles square, or 1500 miles in all directions. Various calculations have been done that show that all of God's people who have ever lived and all the holy angels could have "mansions" on five acres of land with ceilings so high that they could have atmospheres and still there would be tons of space remaining left over inside of New Jerusalem.

So I think that we would easily all fit on a New Earth without having to forfeit the sea for the purpose of land reclamation.

He who was sitting on the Throne also said "Behold, I am making all things new". If He saw fit to make the sea creatures the first time, I can't imagine why they wouldn't be included under the "all things" umbrella, along with maybe my cat. And if He makes the fish again, they've got to have a sea to swim in.

Plus, I was hoping to have a boat on the new earth. It would be nice to have an ocean to float it on, a Caribbean to cruise it in.

So what does it mean "no more sea"?

We will enter the thousand years as a numberless multitude from every nation, every tribe, every people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb.

During the thousand years we will become directly acquainted with God, the angels, each other and even the lives of the lost as we assist in a feature of their judgement. Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? Do you not know that we are to judge angels?

After the thousand years are completed, we won't be quite the same as individual peoples as we were when the thousand years began. We will all be on the same page, there won't be a division of nations.

"And they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God"

We will be One People, His People, and God Himself will be with us as Our God. There's no longer a diverse group of many nations, tribes, peoples and languages anymore as there were when John saw the "beast" rise up out of the "sea".

John didn't really see a literal sea that a beast rose up out of, it was the troubled "sea" of humanity, the diverse group of many nations and languages from around the world.

"And the angel said to me, “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages.

But after the thousand years are finished there will be no more of these "waters", no more "sea".

"They will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God"

"He who was sitting on the Throne also said "Behold, I am making all things new".

"And God said, “Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the heavens.” So God created the great sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind.

""Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:


"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"

f830394ea2b069165ab206b086ebadcd.jpg


KillerWhaleSunset_117148882.jpg


Peaceful Sabbath.
interesting take on the whole thing tbh, was a good read and I have enjoyed reading how everyone see the meaning of this scripture to be.

As stated earlier I was joking with the fish part... but it turns out that ended up being hte main focus haha the water. Still though even that small part is interesting to analyze and digest.
 
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GodB4S

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Do you think there were seasons before the fall?
I do not think there were seasons until after Noah...the Spring, Summer, Fall and Winter were there for the plants but the weather did not exist as freezing, warm and hot for the due watered the plants before the flood.
 
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Sammy-San

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I do not think there were seasons until after Noah...the Spring, Summer, Fall and Winter were there for the plants but the weather did not exist as freezing, warm and hot for the due watered the plants before the flood.

It isn't a serious or important issue, but do you think snow came after the Fall or was before it?
 
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GodB4S

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It isn't a serious or important issue, but do you think snow came after the Fall or was before it?
I believed snow came after the flood for they found over 5000 mammoth elephants eating grass in the snow of the tundra in Russia...they still have flesh with the grass in their mouths, frozen...that means something happened suddenly to cause that to happen from eating grass to being frozen in the snow... I think it happened at the flood... Also, in Antarctica they have found by drilling in the many feet of ice and snow that at the ground level there are tropical plants...I believe before the flood it was tropical around the world but snow came with the rain.
 
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Sammy-San

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I believed snow came after the flood for they found over 5000 mammoth elephants eating grass in the snow of the tundra in Russia...they still have flesh with the grass in their mouths, frozen...that means something happened suddenly to cause that to happen from eating grass to being frozen in the snow... I think it happened at the flood... Also, in Antarctica they have found by drilling in the many feet of ice and snow that at the ground level there are tropical plants...I believe before the flood it was tropical around the world but snow came with the rain.

What is your view on deserts and shrubland and taiga and biomes that aren't tropical?

What about the northern lights-do you think that existed before the flood?
 
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parousia70

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I think the new earth will have a consistent climate all around

So no snow skiing? Bummer. That's one of my favorite "Heaven on earth" things to do.
Would be sad to be prevented from doing it for eternity.
Probably should go this weekend then.......
 
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parousia70

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Revelation 21:1-8King James Version (KJV)

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Comment: bye bye fishies

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Comment: many suggest this references a new Heaven floating over Earth. Another thing though that's important for us to understand is that this city will be holy... the bible says "sin not" for a reason. God also informs us that "we are not called unto uncleanness but unto Holiness" to emphasize this as well, it's intrinsic that we take strides to, "be ye perfect as your father in Heaven is perfect". "Being then made free from sin ye became the servants of righteousness." We gotta be pure man. This is reinforced in verse 8.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.


4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Comment: No more pain or things that bring pain.....like taxes.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Comment: "Old things pass away....and all things become new!!!" we gotta be new creatures in Christ JESUS so we can enter a new "world".

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Comment: This verse is instrumental because in chapter 20 of revelation verse 15 we see this.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

They that endured until the end the same shall be saved, we can't backslide or turn away. "some will depart the faith giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils," that's in I believe timothy 4:8 . And if we do turn away then... "let the wicked man forsake his ways and the unrighteous man his thoughts and return upon the lord...."


8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Comment:
Revelation 21:27King James Version (KJV)

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defiled, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Anything that is an abomination in the bible isn't gonna be in there!


Revelation 4:
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Comment: the bible mentions I believe 5 crowns such as the crown of righteousness in the scripture and seem to suggest based off your calling and what you did you'll have a certain crown or some maybe multiple. Anyway though the point here is to show that we should humble ourselves and acknowledge why whoever is saved even has a calling, because of God. Because God intrinsically decided to send that saved individual on a mission to build his kingdom while on Earth.

The purpose of the crowns aren't for personal glorification but for God to be glorified. "the glory of man is as a flower of grass and the flower thereof falleth away."

Our purpose or calling isn't for us to be glorified but God. The bible says, "let your light shine unto all men so they may see your good works and glorify your father that is in heaven." Not me or you but God above. Remember the bible says "be not wise in thine own eyes but Fear the lord, and depart from evil."

Is this the Same NH&NE Isaiah prophesies about here?:

Isaiah 65:17-23
“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.

20 “No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.

21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;

For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the Lord,
And their offspring with them.


Here we see that in the NH&NE time period Isaiah prophesies of, there will be:
Procreation
Birth
Ageing
Death
Sinners
The need for Shelter from the elements
Vocations/Labor
The need for nourishment
The passing of time marked in days

Is it the same NH&NE John speaks of as a place where the Nations are in need of continual Healing? Where trees produce fruit every 30 Days? (Revelation 22:2)
Where Just outside the city's gates are Dogs, Sorcerers, Murderers, liars, fornicators, etc? (Revelation 22:15)
Where the Spirit and Bride call from inside the City to everyone outside the gates who thirst, to "Come freely and drink"? (Revelation 22:17)

So again, is this the same NH&NE you are referring to, or do you mean some different NH&NE than Isaiah & John are speaking of above?
 
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parousia70

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I believed snow came after the flood for they found over 5000 mammoth elephants eating grass in the snow of the tundra in Russia...they still have flesh with the grass in their mouths, frozen...that means something happened suddenly to cause that to happen from eating grass to being frozen in the snow... I think it happened at the flood...

So there is evidence these mammoths drowned?
Their lungs were filled with water? I hadn't heard that. Do you have a link?
 
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JESUS=G.O.A.T

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Is this the Same NH&NE Isaiah prophesies about here?:

Isaiah 65:17-23
“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.

20 “No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.

21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;

For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the Lord,
And their offspring with them.


Here we see that in the NH&NE time period Isaiah prophesies of, there will be:
Procreation
Birth
Ageing
Death
Sinners
The need for Shelter from the elements
Vocations/Labor
The need for nourishment
The passing of time marked in days

Is it the same NH&NE John speaks of as a place where the Nations are in need of continual Healing? Where trees produce fruit every 30 Days? (Revelation 22:2)
Where Just outside the city's gates are Dogs, Sorcerers, Murderers, liars, fornicators, etc? (Revelation 22:15)
Where the Spirit and Bride call from inside the City to everyone outside the gates who thirst, to "Come freely and drink"? (Revelation 22:17)

So again, is this the same NH&NE you are referring to, or do you mean some different NH&NE than Isaiah & John are speaking of above?
I honestly forgit about this thread and yes that's the same one I'm referring to
 
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parousia70

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yes that's the same one I'm referring to

So you agree that in the New Heavens and Earth there WILL BE:

Procreation
Birth
Ageing
Death
Sinners
The need for Shelter from the elements
Vocations/Labor
The need for nourishment
The passing of time marked in days
and is a place where the Nations are in need of continual Healing?
 
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