Did Satan retain his Physical Beauty after sinning?

Radrook said:

A spirit body. Do you believe otherwise?

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Do you believe God has an eternal past?

I read a book where it says God just Is, and he created time.

What theory do you agree with?

Radrook said:

I really don't have theories. I base my beliefs on scriptures such as the ones below:

Psalm 90:2 ►
N I V
Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the whole world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.

That means that means that a hypothetical time machine travelling back in time at the rate of a billion years a second would never encounter a time when God did not exist. The same would hold true if the machine were travelling that fast into the future.

Did God create time? If we define time as the sequence of events moving from present to future and becoming the past, then his very thoughts which followed that sequience would make him aware time under that definition.

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So God has double infinity?

Radrook said:

I really don't have theories. I base my beliefs on scriptures such as the ones below:

Psalm 90:2 ►
N I V
Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the whole world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.

That means that means that a hypothetical time machine travelling back in time at the rate of a billion years a second would never encounter a time when God did not exist. The same would hold true if the machine were travelling that fast into the future.

Did God create time? If we define time as the sequence of events moving from present to future and becoming the past, then his very thoughts which followed that sequience would make him aware of time under that definition.

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Do you agree with this article that humans arent animals with morals ? 4.4 Differences Between Human Life and Animal Life (OB16)

Radrook said:

Well in a strictly biological sense where life is categorized as either animal or plant we must be classified under the animal category since we obviously aren't sentient plants. We share all the biological necessities of animals such as the need for food and oxygen and do fall into the category of mammals. Do we have morals unlike other animals? Yes because unlike other animals we are extremely self-aware and can reason, ponder on what we have done, evaluate the implications and feel either proud or guilty about it. So we have a sense of right and wrong based on our reasoning ability which animals lack because unlike us they cannot reason. That also causes us to live in past present and future while animals deal only with the present. So we aren't just animals who just happen to have developed morals via some evolutionary process. Because we posses such faculties, which are also faculties of God, we are considered God's offspring or made in his image which in his eyes places us far above the mere animal category.

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I was referring to what humans in terms of physical features and not mind. Also, based on what you said, are angels also in God's image? Were Angels Created in the Image of God?

I've heard that their intellect is different.

Radrook said:

The religious denomination I was part of initially did say it is an allusion to Satan but later adopted your opinion.
On the Internet I still find certain denominations who do.

BTW
It wasn't a Babylonian king it was a Phoenician king the King of the Phoenician city of Tyre located on the coast of the Mediterranean in what is today called Lebanon..

Tyre, Lebanon - Wikipedia

Ezekiel 28

…12"Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13"You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared. 14"You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.…

Ezekiel's cherub in Eden

The cherub in Eden is a figure mentioned in Ezekiel 28:13-14, identified with the King of Tyre, specifically Ithobaal III (reigned 591–573 BCE) who according to the list of kings of Tyre of Josephus was reigning contemporary with Ezekiel at the time of the first fall of Jerusalem.[1][2] Christianity has traditionally linked the reference to the fall of Satan.[3]
Ezekiel's cherub in Eden - Wikipedia

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That's true for the King of Tyre, but Isaiah 14, which is the only place the name "Lucifer" is mentioned, says a few verses before the name it's about the King of Babylon.

Superhero Sam said:

: SPIRITUAL WARFARE -- THE EXISTENCE AND POWER OF GODLY ANGELS AND UNGODLY DEMONS

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That's a misconception that people need to actually read in context.

Before those verses, it says "Take up this proverb against the king of Babylon", and if you actually read the surrounding verses it's clear that the king was arrogant, saw himself as better than his people and oppressed them, but eventually he would fall from power and his people would taunt him, saying "Is this the man who saw himself as highest in the land?", and he wouldn't be buried with most kings because of how bad he was.

If you don't distort the context (or if you ignore it) and don't project a preconceived notion onto it, like I've seen all too often, it's evidently a proverb against a king. Nothing more.

Radrook said:

Well, they are called God's sons in Genesis and in the book of Job. So they are definitely his offspring just as mankind is. Also, as the article points out, they share all out faculties which make us children of God. The difference is that man was created a little lower than they are.

Hebrews 2:7
You made him a little lower than the angels; You crowned him with glory and honor

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for

Are they intellectually different? Being spirit creatures who witnessed the creation of our universe and having knowledge far beyond all human understanding they must definitely think differently. Paradoxically, doesn't prevent some of them from becoming buffoons as is evident by their idiotic behavior when they rebel and choose to become demons.

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Wasn't lucifer was jealous we were made in God's image?

Do you think that will forever be a mystery?

Radrook said:

I have come across the concept of angelic jealousy causing them to become enemies of mankind but I have never found any supporting scriptural evidence to support it. Where that idea emerged is beyond me. Do you know?

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So you think the jealous of God theory makes more sense?

Superhero Sam said:

Wasn't lucifer was jealous we were made in God's image?

Do you think that will forever be a mystery?

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"Lucifer" was a name given to a Babylonian king and nothing more, though he did see himself as better than everyone else.

CrystalDragon said:

"Lucifer" was a name given to a Babylonian king and nothing more, though he did see himself as better than everyone else.

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How was a king a shining one? That verse refers to an angel.

Radrook said:

I have come across the concept of angelic jealousy causing them to become enemies of mankind but I have never found any supporting scriptural evidence to support it. Where that idea emerged is beyond me. Do you know?

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How did temptation get into Lucifer's heart when there was no temptation? Who tempted Satan?

Here are theories

Iniquity

The origin of iniquity was found in the fall of Lucifer. It happened in the moment this archangel, full of beauty and perfection, allowed a thought that was out of line with God and started to believe in something different and opposite to Divine Justice.

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Why did God allow the Satan and the demons to sin?

Apparently, just as it is with humanity, the angels were found to have either of two invested natures, some with a nature that loved God and sought to follow Him, and some that when given the chance to rebel, took it. We do not know why God chose to do things this way. We can only assume that in His infinite wisdom, He deemed it to be the best way.

Why then, did God in His omniscience create beings with the tendency to fall and rebel against Him in this way? Again, the Bible does not tell us God's reasons for doing what He did. But we do know that human beings choose to rebel against God unless He intervenes and creates a new heart in them (Ezekiel 36:26; John 3:3; Ephesians 2:8-9). Possibly, it works the same way with the angels; those not restrained by the gift of a godly nature will rebel when given the choice to do so.

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Superhero Sam said:

How was a king a shining one? That verse refers to an angel.

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No, "Morning Star" was used as a term for anyone who was seen as being in a high position of power, including Pharaoh and Jesus, neither of whom were angels (well, Jesus was the Son of God, but not an angel).

And I know what verses you're thinking of there, Isaiah 14:12-15 that everyone has quoted as a whisper-down-the-lane thing who claim they know what it means because someone told them what it means and thus they have a preconceived notion in their heads. It's not about Satan AT ALL. If you actually read the surrounding verses and not just verses 12-15 that are quoted so much and so misinformed that I'm getting tired of having to explain it but I'll do so anyway...

1 For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the Lord for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.

3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the Lord shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,

4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

5 The Lord hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.

6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.

7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.

8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.

9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

If you actually read the verses and not just regurgitate the oft-quoted ones, it's clear that it was all a proverb taken up against a Babylonian king (and again, "Morning Star", another translation of "Lucifer" was used for anyone who had a high position, including Pharaoh and Jesus himself). The king was arrogant and saw him as being greater than everyone else, and mistreated his people, but he would soon be out of power and be seen as no more than the flawed arrogant human that he was.

"Lucifer" is just a proverb-title given to a king of Babylon. Not Satan. Not a fallen angel. Not a rebellious spirit. Nothing supernatural. Nothing more or less than an arrogant king who saw himself as greater than anyone else.

Radrook said:

Does space being infinite make sense? Where is it located? If it is located nowhere then it can't exist. If it is located somewhere then what is the location of the somewhere ad infinitum. The buck has to stop somewhere in order to avoid infinite regression of location and of existence itself. Otherwise existence itself becomes a logical impossibility.

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Do you view this as one of the biggest mysteries ever?

Radrook said:

I have come across the concept of angelic jealousy causing them to become enemies of mankind but I have never found any supporting scriptural evidence to support it. Where that idea emerged is beyond me. Do you know?

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You were a covering angel. You were in the garden of GOD

ewq1938 said:

Except that scripture has Satan fulfilling everything written about Lucifer...

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Who else but Satan will literally fall from heaven?

Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Who else but Satan could ascend into heaven like he did in Job?


Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Paul wrote that the Antichrist will also seek to do this and whether the AC is Satan or a Satan possessed man it still is a reference to Satan.


Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.


Exactly what Rev 20 depicts happening to Satan!

Isaiah 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Isaiah 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Satan bound for a thousand years and I can easily imagine people saying this about him!

That's far too many coincidences to just be about some old king of Babylon as all of it exactly pertains to Satan and what is going to happen to him and what he tries to accomplish.

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It's all a proverb. A metaphor. Like calling someone "a lion on the battlefield" to mean they're really good at fighting, or "a snake" to indicate they're crafty. It outright says that it's a proverb against the king of Babylon and it says that the people refer to him as a man. It's only seen as Satan if you go into it with that preconceived notion in your head.

Revelation was also written centuries later and almost wasn't in the Bible. But that shouldn't even matter in this case since Isaiah 14 is clearly all proverb.