God's Order in the Church vs Man's Order

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
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God's Order VS Man's Order

God’s order in the body of Christ is His spiritual working in every part as he leads and empowers believers in all things. This spiritual order manifest in the body as we function in our daily lives and when gathered together. Though hidden from the eyes of natural men, it is there nevertheless. This order begins in the spirit and the patient waiting on God as He leads into all gifts, ministry and fruits of the Spirit and functioning of the church. No person can know this order unless they are in Christ, and walk in the spirit. But sadly, even many christians today are drawn away from God’s order and rule in their hearts into a religious form of man’s order and exalted leaders.

Man’s order does not begin in the spirit, it begins in man’s natural mind and human wisdom, and is regulated by programs and traditions of men in the rudiments of the world that can make the word of God of no effect.
Jesus said, “I will build my church” and he is fully able to do this by his power and might, which he has been doing all along. But If you ask many believers today, "how is a church built?” They would say something like, “well, first you save up money for years with a gathering, or one that meets in a school or community center and then you buy a piece of land or go into debt, hire a construction crew and you pay them to build the church building. Then you put some pews in it, build an altar and pulpit, have a Pastor over all and make a name for it, put a sign up on the lawn, register with the government and there you go, the church is ready.
Then the whole assembly comes in and sit in rows facing the back of each others heads as they look forward to the exalted man on the podium, or “altar”, who gives a message to the church every week.”

But this is not how Jesus Christ builds his church, nor has he ever built His church this way. Christ builds his church from the inside out and this work starts from within all believers. The “church” is the body of Christ (Eph. 1:22, 23) and a living organism. It is a spiritual house made up of living stones (1 Peter 2:5), which is built up in the revelation of Jesus Christ. This is the starting point of Jesus building. It is not a man made religious building or a corporation with bosses and employees. Jesus Christ is the head of the church, which is his body, he is not the head of institutions and man made forms.

In God’s order, all believers must “...grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.“ (Ephesians 4:15,16). This edifying (or building up) of one another in love is how Christ builds His Church from the inside out.

In God’s order He arranges all things after His mighty working
in the saints (Heb. 13:20, 21) as believers labourer together with him (1 Cor. 3:9). This order begins in the peace of God and by His rule (or governing) in the spirit (Col.3:15) as we wait on the Lord for ministry in the body one to another. Only then can we grow up into him (Eph. 4:15).
All who worship God must worship Him in spirit and in truth (John 4:24). For there is no life, salvation, ministry, or true church outside of Jesus Christ in the spirit. This is far different than man’s order, wisdom and traditions, that have dominated christianity for centuries.
Despite the multitudes of believers who gather in these religious forms, with their various spiritual moments, the evangelistic aspect and some other good ministration seen in many of them, there is a great problem in the churches today and it must be addressed. It is still true today that, “Except the Lord build the house they labour in vain that build it” (Psalm 127:1).

Many christians who gather today may seem to be rich and increased with goods and think they have need of nothing, but many are unaware that they are “wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind and naked” (Revelation 3:17). Jesus said these serious words to the Church of Laodicea, but he also said, “Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come into him, and will sup with him and he with me” (Revelation 3:20). Jesus wants to dwell in the hearts of all those who will open to him and to “sup” with them, or to participate with them in the assembly as they gather. Without this participation of the Lord among the church they are in danger. Jesus said to the Laodicean church “I will spue thee out of my mouth.” (Revelation 3:16).
These words to Laodicea, echo to many churches today as well and this sober exhortation is the same. All christian gatherings should consider this question, “is Jesus Christ standing outside knocking or is he in the midst being able to effectually work in believers as they assemble?”
For Christians to be able to function fully as the body of Christ, they need to withdraw from man’s order and walk in God’s order, even though this will be very hard for some.

The commands of the Lord in this order were spoken of by Paul to the Corinthians when he said “...when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying...Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be
comforted... If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.” (1 Cor. 14:26, 29-31, 37).
Peter also spoke of this order and said, “As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.” (1 Peter 4:10,11). If anyone neglects or hinders the ministration of the gifts from God to one another they will not be good stewards of the grace of God and they quench the spirit.
This one aspect alone is so different than most of man’s order today, where all the body is stifled and silenced by the one man pastor ministry or a few others with their programmed order, where all are bound up and unable to freely edify one another. Instead they are drawn to the exalted man who does most of the ministry. This is wrong and needs to change.
Scripture speaks of a plurality of “elders in every church” (Acts 14:23). Never do we read of one man in the New Testament called “The Pastor” over all doing most of the ministry and getting a regular salary.
Furthermore, we read of the church gathering in homes and having a meal together as they ministered to one another, in prayer and fellowship. The institutional church structures today with their programs and clergy, have hinder many of these functions in the church.
In fact, when examining man’s order as opposed to God’s order we see that almost everything that is done today, from walking up to the large building with a denominational name, called a “church”, and everything in between that is on the programed order, from the Pastor over all who often quenches the spirit in others, to their programs that do not allow the body to ministry freely, with the pastors sermon, the pulpit, worship leaders, women leaders, false authority, collections, dressing up, ushers, theater type environment, salaried ministers, tithing, tax breaks from the government, altars, rituals, exalted priest, the silent body ministry, show time religion, no consensus decisions, to shaking the pastors hand at the door, are all based on the tradition of men and not after Christ.

A Wise Master Builder

God’s order was revealed to apostolic workers and also handed down to believers in scripture. Paul said that God made him a wise masterbuilder (1 Cor. 3:10), to lay the foundation and to show God’s order for the churches. This understanding was given to Paul by God’s grace working effectually in him (1 Cor.3:10), it was not something that he just made up by himself. He then passed this on to all the believers wherever he went as he planted churches and set things in order.
We see men like Timothy and Titus bringing others to remembrance of Paul’s ways in Christ (1 Cor. 4:17) and the order he handed down for the churches (Titus 1:5). Similarly today, believers led by God should walk in the same order and deliver the same order to others, especially those who are called to such apostolic work.

God’s Order in Scripture

“For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:” (Titus 1:5, emphasis mine)
Here we see that Paul had a definite “order” for them to be in and until this order was in place he diligently sought to work towards that end. The order Paul speaks of here was given by the leading of the Spirit and it was not man’s order and fanciful ideas of mans wisdom, programs and philosophies based upon traditions of men, but rather God’s order and commands as we saw from scripture.

Paul often warned christians against man’s traditions and order and to beware of anything that was not after Christ (Colossians. 2:8). This same warning is for all christians today and the dangers are just as real. But who has ears to hear this warning today?

In writing to the Colossians Paul said, “For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.” (Colossians 2:5)
This “order” among the Colossian believers was a spiritual order and Paul was able to behold it in the spirit. This is God’s order, not man’s order and to walk in this order a person must be in faith and the leading of the Spirit. No man can make this happen in the assembly.

To others Paul said, “But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.” (1 Timothy 3:15)

Clearly, Paul speaks of an order here and this is how christians “ought to behave” themselves when they gather. How believers are to do this is given by the Spirit of God, as we walk in Christ and his anointing.
Everything we do must be done in the name of Jesus Christ, (Col. 3:17) or in His character, power, life and leading. God works in us to will and to do (Phil. 2:13) and to make us perfect unto EVERY good work (Hebrews 13:20-21). There is no room for man’s order in this.

When people go away from God’s order, they become “disorderly”. Paul wrote how to deal with such people and said, “Withdraw from every brother that walketh disorderly and not after the traditions we handed down“(2 Thess. 3:6). Notice that, even if they are believers we are to withdraw from them.

But as soon as body ministry is alluded to and believers are exhorted to do this, many will cry out against it by wrongly using this verse to justify ther own man made programs and say, “Let all things be done decently and in order” (1 Cor. 14:40).

But this is not what the verse speaks of. Paul has just given them the “commandments of the Lord” for the church in the same chapter (1 Cor. 14:26-37). Then he tells them to do all things in “order” in verse 40, but this “order” is not man’s order but God’s order. How can man’s order cause a prophecy gift to happen or make a person have other gifts and ministry? Only God can do such things, and He gives gifts to the body as He wills (1 Cor. 12:11, Phil. 2:13).
Paul warned those who rejected God’s order and said, “If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant” (1 Cor. 14:36,38). If men don't follow the order given by God then they are ignorant and not to be received, and we should not listen to ignorant men.

Paul was not writing the commandments and traditions of men to believers as some may try to imply.

In another place Paul said, “And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.” (1 Cor. 11:34).

Again we see that , Paul was led by the Spirit to “set in order” things in the churches. He also mentions “the rest” of the things he needed to set in order showing his zeal for every area of God’s order.

Paul taught all believers to keep this order, “Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.” (2 Thessalonians 2:15). And he wrote, “Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you” (1 Corinthians 11:2). Can anyone say that such things were unimportant for the assemblies?

This order was for all the believers, “For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.” (1 Cor. 4:17). Paul taught the same things “everywhere” and in “every church”. So are any churches today exempt? Why would any christian want to do anything different?

The Confusion of Man’s
Order and Traditions


“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power” (Col. 2:8).
All christians should take this warning seriously. Unless the word “BEWARE” is not serious enough? Yet how many believers today are caught up in the traditions of men and worldly rudiments, full of man made forms and philosophies? The traditions of men often make the word of God of no effect (Mark 7:13).
In the following examples, I will show briefly some of the confusion that we see everywhere today against God’s order.

Church Buildings?

This tradition of men has come from way back where men were drawn away from the apostolic order of meeting in homes (through the leading of the Spirit) unto to the large pagan type temples. The believers met in homes for close to 300 years after Christ death for the most part. It was around 325 A.D when believers began moving away from this with the building projects of Constantine and others. This did not begin in the New Testament church as we see in scripture. The believers met in homes at first having favour with all the people and not because of persecution (Acts 2:46,47).
Calling a man made building the “church” that Jesus is building is false and sets up in the minds of men something other than the true church, which is the “body of Christ”, assembled and called out where Jesus Christ is the head (Eph. 1:22,23) The Church is also the spiritual “house of God” (1 Peter 2:5). But man’s traditions hinder the very idea and function of the church. The very form itself of these so called “church buildings” draw men to the one man at the front and to look at the back of each others heads, where mutual edification is stifled.
Here are just a few examples of this pattern of meeting in homes as seen in scripture; “and breaking bread from house to house,” (Acts 2;46). “Likewise greet the church that is in their house.” (Romans 16:5) “...Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house” (1 Cor.16:19). “Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house. “ (Col. 4:15).

The Pastor over all?

The one man “Pastor ministry” that has dominated Christendom for a long time often hinders God’s order. This is also seen as the false “clergy/laity division”. This tradition of men is contrary to God’s order of plurality of ministering elders in every church (James 5:14, Acts 14:23) and the various giftings to the body of Christ. We read in Ephesians 4:11 that God gave ”gave some, apostles; and some,
prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:”, All of these gifts are needed in the body for perfecting and edifying.
In God’s order there are more giftings than just pastors, in fact, we never read of a one man pastor gift over a church in the New Testament, doing most of the ministry. Instead, we always see a plurality of “elders in every church” (Acts 14:23). Yet unfortunately today, this one man ministry dominates christan assemblies all over the world and people love to have it so.
The one man pastor ministry tradition quenches the spirit in others and hinders the body from edifying itself under Christ headship in the gatherings and the mutual edification where all are commanded to wait on the Lord and freely be able use their gifts. This aspect of God’s order is clearly seen in the scriptures; Eph. 4:11-16, 1 Cor. 12:7-25, 1 Peter 4:10,11, 1 Cor. 14:26-37, 1 Thess. 5:11, Rom. 12:1-10, Col. 2:10,19.
How can the church function as they should when the entire gatherings are dominated by one man and body edification is hindered? At best, these large meetings are similar to evangelistic meetings or a big lecture. But regardless, this tradition of one man over all has hindered the church and the God’s order greatly. How can every one have, when only a Pastor gift is allowed to speak and minister freely?

False Authority?

Jesus said , ”Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; 27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:” (Matt. 20:25-27, Mark 10:42,43, Luke 22:25,26). Jesus corrected the false idea of men ruling over others by telling them to be “servants”. A servant has no authority in the world, but as they serve others, speaking and living the word of God they do.
The word “dominion” means to control and lord over. Jesus said this should not be among the saints and “authority” is not to be like the Gentile rulers. But many gatherings are set up this way today .
The pharisees challenged Jesus authority and asked him “By what authority doest thou these things?” (Matt. 21:23), they asked this because they did not recognize him in authority. Jesus was not a political,
ruler as they knew, but when he spoke His word he spoke as one having authorty, not as they did. This authority is similar to those christians who walk in the word of God today. The authortiy is not in a positional authority, but rather a moral, spiritual authority in Christ and in the ministry of word and their life example. Spiritual authority flows from Christ to the body, it is not a static office.
Paul said, “Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy” (2 Cor. 1:24). The words “we have dominion” in Greek means, “To rule:- have dominion over, lord, be lord of, exercise lordship over”, from 2962, “...supreme in authority, i.e. (as a noun) controller: by implication, Master (as a respectful title)...”. Yet this is exactly what we see in the exalted men over the body today. They have supreme authority and control over others and many even call them, “Master of Divinity”. But Jesus said call no man master. A master means, “a guide” from “to lead”. But all believers are to be led by the Spirit (Rom. 8:14) and the Holy Spirit will guide them into all truth (John 16:13), they have no need that any man should teach them (1 John 2:27). The old man is crucified, and they listen to the new man in the anointing.

Man made Programs?

In many assemblies today we see a program dictating the order of these religious forms. The very idea of a “program” fights against waiting on the Lord for ministry and the function of the body in Christ.
Usually in these programs there is a sermon, or litergy, a few songs, announcements, collections of money and no one else is on the program unless slotted in by the man in control. This order of man is not right.
Clearly in scripture we see the exact oppostie of a programs and a one man pastor ministry. We see a body where Christ is the head working effectually in every part unto the edifying of one another (Eph. 4:16). Paul said “...the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.” (1 Cor. 12:7). And yet today it would be read, as “a manifestation of the spirit is given to the pastor in man’s programs”.

Lecture format order?

Another hindrance to God’s order is the entire lecture format in the gatherings. This is where everyone sits in pews and looks at the back of someone’s head and all eyes are drawn away to the speaker on the podium behind the pulpit where the so called ”Reverend” or “The Pastor” speaks his message, which is very much like a lecture in an auditorium or school.
As in architecture, “form follows function” and so if the function of a place to meet in is for a Lecture, then the form of the building will be with everyone facing the front. But in the assembly of believers, the function is for mutual edification, and so the form would not be in a large lecture format looking to the front. This very form fights against body ministry.
In the scriptures we see believers meeting in homes and edifying one another which is more conducive to body life. If the function of a church is for all to wait on God and edify one another and use their gifts, then the form of the gathering would not be
focused on a man at the front, but more of a family type environment to allow for the function of the body of Christ as he leads.
The giftings that God gives and the ministry in the spirit cannot be preplanned by man’s order. But to have a lecture, where one man prearranges the message under tight time frames where all is planned and he preforms on a stage or an“ altar”, is not biblical and cuts off the freedom of the Spirit in God’s order.
Many lecture type meetings may at best be evangelistic etc., but this is at the cost of the function of the church.

The Supper of The Lord

Today we see the Lords supper as a small snack and not a full meal as in scripture. Not having a meal together in a covenant communion relationship with each other is a great loss for many (1 Cor. 11:33).
How often today do we see the supper as a cracker and shot glass of grape juice, yet the word “supper”, means, “the chief meal”. The early believers had what was called a “love feast” and they did this often.
Jesus said to Laodicea that he wanted to sup with them, but sadly he was outside (Rev. 3:20). Part of that communion and participation is inward with the Lord and with each other (1 Cor 10:17). This is the same spiritual food all the saints of all time (1 Cor 10:17).
Having a meal together is a vital aspect.
“And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread...” (Acts 20:7). Having a full meal together in the time of Jesus was a very intimate thing and a time of close fellowship. This is one of the reasons they came together.

Paid Ministers?

Though some may not see this as a hindrance to God’s order, it is. When one man called “The Pastor” and a few others get paid a wage to minister over the body this makes their function dominant over others and creates a schism in the body. Why would the believers need to minister to one another If they pay the one man pastor to do so?
This makes christians dependent on the “experts” and those men called “Pastors” to do most of the ministry. But if all the body was to function properly under Christ headship, they would soon realize that they don’t need to have one man paid or exalted above the rest and that God works through all the body.
In scripture we see that Paul taught the elders to work with their own hands, “I have coveted no man’s silver, or gold, or apparel.34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.“(Acts 20: 34-36).
Local elders should work. If some are sent in Itinterant work however, (I speak specifically of apostles, and evangelist) who are led that way, they can receive benefits to help them in ministry. But Paul himself was reluctant to do this.
Those in itinerant work have a need to be helped in the work. This is because they come to a town and do not have work right away and may be there temporarily. Paul says these itinerant “preachers” of the gospel (particularly apostles) can receive help. But this is specifically for itinerant workers (1 Corinthians 9:5,14 ), not for local elders.
The expression “double honour” in 1 Timothy 5:17, also can refer to “esteem” and “value” for elders , similar to 1 Thess. 5:12,13, not a regular salary as some make it. The same word “honour” is used in 1 Timothy 6:1 for servants “honouring” their masters. But servants do not pay their masters?

One Man Makes decisions
no Concensus?


Another hinderance is when the whole body is not allowed to make decisions in a “concensus”. But instead one man, usually “the pastor”, makes most of the decisions for the whole church. He may have some people “under” him who he consults or even a board that makes decisions. But all these forms hinder the order of God in the church.
The word “consensus” means, “to make judgements, opinions or decisions as a whole group”. We see different examples in the New Testament of decision making where they all came to a consensus, “Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men...”(Acts 15:22-25 , 1 Cor. 1:10, Matt. 18:17). Clearly, the whole church was all involved.

Song Leaders?

Another unusual hinderance to God’s order is having a “song leader”. This may not seem a hinderance to many, but again, by having one man over all as a leader in spiritual worship hinders every part of the body from having a hymn or a spiritual song as Paul wrote, “Let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.” (Colossians 3:16,17).
All that we do must be in the name of the Lord, or in the character, life and power of the Spirit. This is the only way that we can truly worship, as Jesus said, “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. “(John 4:24).
We must worship God this way, there is no option. But to have a pre-programmed order from a song leader can quench the Spirit. All things we do must be in Christ for “By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually...”(Hebrews 13:15).
It is Jesus Christ in the midst of the church effectually working in every part, “...for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee” (Hebrews 2:11,12).
Having said this, it is not wrong to have songs in a book or musicians who can follow along with songs from others as they are led.

Tithing?

Many believers today are bound up under Old Testament law and other aspects to maintain their whole system. Tithing is one of those errors. Only the Levites had a commandment to take tithes as we read , “And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren...” (Hebrews 7:5).
No Gentile has such a commandment. The priesthood and law are changed that took tithes (Heb. 7:12) and giving in the New Testament is not the same, as Paul said, “Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.” (2 Cor. 9:7). Yet, tithing in the Old Testament was part of the Mosaic law and a necessity.
In Acts 15 some tried to put believers under the law of Moses (Acts 15:1,5). But the church concluded that they were not to be put under the law of Moses, which would include tithing as part of the law (Acts 15:24, and Acts 21:25). None should put believers under tithing today either.

The Pulpit?

Another unusual hinderance to God’s order is this thing called the “Pulpit”. In history we see a pulpit being used for announcements and readings in many religious gatherings. But eventually it was brought into protestant gatherings and it replaced the altar and sacrificial system of the Roman church. The reading of the scriptures was central and all the meeting was around the scripture reading. While this is better than the altar and Catholic Mass, it still replaced the purpose and function of the church meeting, which is the gathering of believers in Christ as He works effectually in the body to edify itself in love (Eph. 4:15,16).
This thing called the “pulpit ministry”, is where one man over all has freedom alone to speak there. But just having the pulpit there can distract from God’s order in the gatherings. There is no need of a pulpit if believers meet in homes.


Showtime religion

Another hinderance to God’s order is the showtime atmosphere influencing assemblies.

1 Showtime has its huge decorated theaters, and today many religeous building have the same, with their floodlights and ushers, and stages.

2. Showtime has its’s programs that are handed out and all the show is on a tight time schedule. This is similar to programs and tight time schedules in assemblies today.

3.Showtime has its famous superstars who have their pictures in large frames in the lobby and their names in lights on signs. Many religious places have this also.

4.Showtime has it’s actors, who rehearse their words and perform for pay. In many assemblies, ministers have rehearsed sermons and they get paid for a good message.

5. Showtime has its audiences with applause, who just sit in the chairs, and watch the show. Most gatherings today have their audiences with applause who just sit in the pews and watch the show.


The Dangers of
man-made religion


Even though there may be some benefits in many relgious forms today, the spiritual dangers are more so. The order of most churches today is; wrong, spiritually dangerous and hindering to the body of Christ and Christ headship. It creates a dysfunctional body, cuts off body ministry and the gifts from freely functioning, fights against the commands of God for the church, sets up men as heads of the church in controlling, dominant, exalted roles over others as lords and rulers. It creates schisms in the body of Christ at large, quenches the spirit in the gatherings in many ways, makes the word of God of no effect by their traditions, hinders the family environment of the body of Christ, and the fellowship in the breaking of bread, replaces the organic body of Christ with organizations and programs, sets up institutions, and entangles itself with the rudiments of the world.

While believers are to gather physically and be subject to God's order and discipline of the church. The church functions and moves in Christ and His leading in the spirit and inwardly as he works in every believer to edify one another, or to build up one another. The church is both a spiritual house inwardly connected to each other in Christ and a spiritual body inwardly connected as the body of Christ with many parts of that body each one working as they are led by God. But they are also lively stones built up and they physically gather together , having their flesh crucified and dead so that they can let the life of Christ dwell in them and manifest in their bodies. They bring their bodies in subjection to Christ and to one another in Christ as we submit to one another in the truth.

Elder/overseers, are simply more mature brothers who help and watch over (not Lord over) others and feed . Babies are unskillful in the word of righteousness but they can still move and speak and function in the body as they are led as well and to grow up into Christ the head as he leads.

Todays situation is far different from the true Christ that Christ is building. While there may be many believers in these religious forms and confusion. God calls them out to gather in Him and with the body and to let His peace rule or govern in their hearts and the Word of Christ to dwell in them richly, from this they will teach and admonish one another in love.

Let everything that can be shaken be shaken, so that all we see is that glorious image of Christ. Those that worship God MUST worship Him in spirit and in truth.
 
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LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
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It must also be said that there are some good nd true Christians in those flawed churches who follow God as much as is within their power to do so.....denominations however I do not agree with,there is only one church.


Yes there are many many true believers bound up in these traditions of men and in many ways the mass of confusion is Mystery Babylon. God tells His people to come out of it. We see that God's people are in it

did you read the disorder in these places as i showed. Things like one man pastor ministry over all programs and no body ministry etc?
 
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LoveofTruth

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Yes I did but such change will take time and not all will have the ideal situation to go to.
I know I have been working to this end for almost thirty years I have been helping to plant gatherings in homes. The meeting in one home went for 18 years and others still are going outside the city.

But the traditions of men do not fall off easily. Even basic things will not be let go of. Such things as calling a man made babylonian edifice a "church". Even though they may know this they still say "theres my church", referring to a man made building with none in it. Scripture shows that the church met in their house and bring it to the ears of the church etc. Its a good study to see all the places where the word 'church" is used and see that is refers to people , the called out assembly.

Other traditions they hold to such a s the one man over all as a Lord or controller of all in authority over all called the "Pastor". This is a sacred cow to many, they cannot imagine that such a function is unbiblical. Jesus himself said we are not to be as the gentile rulers who have dominion over others as Lords and rulers having authority over others. Believers and elders should be as servants and ministers. Their authority flows from Christ and His word as they live and minister the word and speak sound words grounded in the truth.
 
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LoveofTruth

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I hear some say. Are you going to church", and they refer to a man made building on the corner. In fact no man has ever gone to church in the history of the world. The church is not a building of man or a institution you GO to. The church is the body of Christ and the church meets in their houses and wait on the Lord for all good things.

Some will say other false things like, "lets go to Davids church, or Pastor Bobs", referring to the one man over all who is the pastor. But the church is Jesus Christ's church.
 
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That was a superb opening post - a great one indeed!

About the only thing that I would place a challenge on, at least where maybe a qualification may be in order was with "Today we see the Lords supper as a small snack and not a full meal as in scripture".

Even though when most congregations hold the Lord's Supper it can often be a meaningless exercise, I have to agree with you in that it should become more of a light meal as against what most of us experience today in church. There can be a problem here in that many congregations that encourage 'fellowship meals' (often between their afternoon and evening meetings), that they can end up becoming a comprehensive meal which often makes it difficult for those who have large families and who struggle with finances to become involved.

This can not only be a problem within a larger congregational setting but if such meals are not carefully handled within even a home group it can cause some to drift away due to a feeling that they are not fitting into the social status of the group.

But as I said, your opening post was superb and it has addressed many of the issues that we see within not only the institutionalised church but even within many house churches as well.
 
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LoveofTruth

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That was a superb opening post - a great one indeed!

About the only thing that I would place a challenge on, at least where maybe a qualification may be in order was with "Today we see the Lords supper as a small snack and not a full meal as in scripture".

Even though when most congregations hold the Lord's Supper it can often be a meaningless exercise, I have to agree with you in that it should become more of a light meal as against what most of us experience today in church. There can be a problem here in that many congregations that encourage 'fellowship meals' (often between their afternoon and evening meetings), that they can end up becoming a comprehensive meal which often makes it difficult for those who have large families and who struggle with finances to become involved.

This can not only be a problem within a larger congregational setting but if such meals are not carefully handled within even a home group it can cause some to drift away due to a feeling that they are not fitting into the social status of the group.

But as I said, your opening post was superb and it has addressed many of the issues that we see within not only the institutionalised church but even within many house churches as well.
Hello and God bless, Yes the meal is a wonderful moment in the gatherings. We always met in homes so the gatherings were sometime 30 people or 20 , and everyone brought food as they could. The poor didn't have to bring anything we fed them . we had a large table full of food often and in the middle of the table we had a large single piece of unleavened bread and a large jug of grape juice. Everyone took some food and broke a piece from the one bread and took a cup of grape juice for after the meal. We always saw the meal as a covenant meal, and not just our normal supper. But the word "sipper" does mean chief meal. It is a wonderful blessing that manny are missing if they don't have it. While we were eating we all took the bread and gave thanks and remembered the Lord and his death and after we ate we took the cup and also remembered and prayed.

Then we had a time of fellowship. First we gather and greeted each other and then after the brothers and sisters gather we gather our hearts unto the Lord and let the peace of God rule . If any come to a meeting with sin or unforgiveness they will not be at peace with God and not be able to function right in the meeting. Yes all believers have things God will reveal and many times to be corrected and part of the function of the church is to address all things. But we should still seek to be in the peace of God as we gather ( Colossians 3:15,16 KJV) Then when we let the Peace of God rule in our hearts comes thankfulness, some might say a prayer, or another a song, one might have a pressing testimony or scripture, another might comment on a text and teach , then another song. It is very free and as a body we all have edification. One man doesn't have to try and be all the body and all the ministry. Often even if I or another of the overseas had a teaching by the end of it many would have had comments and revelations and added much to the word. It is wonderful.
 
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98cwitr

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Tithing seems to be addressed and supported in Acts:

Acts 4:33-35New International Version (NIV)

33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all 34 that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.

The error I see in churches today is that they are run like businesses, instead of taking care of those in need, the emphasis (it seems) is increasing the church to make it more attractive in order to obtain greater membership numbers. Church shouldn't be a country club imo.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Tithing seems to be addressed and supported in Acts:

Acts 4:33-35New International Version (NIV)

33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all 34 that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.

The error I see in churches today is that they are run like businesses, instead of taking care of those in need, the emphasis (it seems) is increasing the church to make it more attractive in order to obtain greater membership numbers. Church shouldn't be a country club imo.

Hello and God bless,

The section you quoted in Acts doesn't show tithing, it is giving and helping the poor. Tithing was only to be taken from israel for the levites and High priest. It wad always food and only the Levites have a commandment to take tithes of their brethren the jews according to the law, Hebrews 7:5. This priesthood was changed and the law also Hebrews 7.

Also in Acts all through Acts we see the Jewish and Gentile church emerging. There is one body, but it was allowed for a time for the Jews to have a time of reformation to come out of the old covenant into the new ( Hebrews 9). The old covenant was fading away and ready to vanish (Hebrews 8 at the end). But it hadn't happened yet when Acts started and all through Acts we see this change. Even though Christ had finished the work and no more old sacrifices and gifts and washings were needed, but these were imposed upon the Jews for a time until the reformation could happen Hebrews 9)., The Jewish believers still struggled to let go of these for a long time.

We see this in Acts 15 and 21 where they were still going into the temple and offering animals sacrifices and thought they had to keep the law and be circumcised etc. But when they tried to circumcise the Gentiles, this was not allowed. Today no Gentile or Jew is under the law and no Gentile or jew has to tithes to the Levites. The priesthood is of all believers today and a spiritual house. Why would the gentiles have to be put under the old covenant and law that was passing away. No the Jews had a time of transition. But the gentiles dod not need this. So we read sections in Galatians 2 where Paul had the gospel to the uncircumcision ( Gentiles) and peter had the gospel to the circumcision ( Jews). The gospel is the same, but how it is applied and understood by both camps has a different application. The Jews were coming out of the old into the new. The gentiles were coming into the new. By and through faith is mentioned in another place for both camps. I believe it says the Jews by faith, and the Gentiles through faith.

Those who teach tithing and use Malachi and other verses in Matthew etc to justify tithing today put people back under the law and the curse of the law. Cursed be he that does not continue on all things written on the book of the law to do them.

and no Jew today tithes either. They had to bring the tithe to the Temple storehouse and bring a tithe of the land ( Jerusalem) and give a tithe of the tithe as a heave offering to the High Priest etc. And there are no such things today. The old covenant has been replaced by the new.
 
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98cwitr

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Hello and God bless,

Yhe section you quoted in Acts doesn't show tithing, it is giving and helping the poor. Tithing was only to be taken from israel for the levites and High priest. It wad always food and only the Levites have a commandment to take tithes of their brethren the jews according to the law, Hebrews 7:5. This priesthood was changed and the law also Hebrews 7.

Also in Acts all through Acts we see the Jewish and Gentile church emerging. There is one body, but it was allowed for a time for the Jews to have a time of reformation to come out of the old covenant into the new ( Hebrews 9). The old covenant was fading away and ready to vanish (Hebrews 8 at the end). But it hadn't happened yet when Acts started and all through Acts we see this change. Even though Christ had finished the work and no more old sacrifices and gifts and washings were needed, but these were imposed upon the Jews for a time until the reformation could happen Hebrews 9)., The Jewish believers still struggled to let go of these for a long time.

We see this in Acts 15 and 21 where they were still going into the temple and offering animals sacrifices and thought they had to keep the law and be circumcised etc. But when they tried to circumcise the Gentiles, this was not allowed. Today no Gentile or Jew is under the law and no Gentile or jew has to tithes to the Levites. The priesthood is of all believers today and a spiritual house. Why would the gentiles have to be put under the old covenant and law that was passing away. No the Jews had a time of transition. But the gentiles dod not need this. So we read sections in Galatians 2 where Paul had the gospel to the uncircumcision ( Gentiles) and peter had the gospel to the circumcision ( Jews). The gospel is the same, but how it is applied and understood by both camps has a different application. The Jews were coming out of the old into the new. The gentiles were coming into the new. By and through faith is mentioned in another place for both camps. I believe it says the Jews by faith, and the Gentiles through faith.

Those who teach tithing and use Malachi and other verses in Matthew etc to justify tithing today put people back under the law and the curse of the law. Cursed be he that does not continue on all things written on the book of the law to do them.

and no Jew today tithes either. They had to bring the tithe to the Temple storehouse and bring a tithe of the land ( Jerusalem) and give a tithe of the tithe as a heave offering to the High Priest etc. And there are no such things today. The old covenant has been replaced by the new.

Then why didn't they give directly to the poor instead of bringing the money to the apostles?
 
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LoveofTruth

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Then why didn't they give directly to the poor instead of bringing the money to the apostles?
In the church we are to remember the poor also, and certain men were delegated to give to the poor the money from others, and to help widows etc. Decons did this as well. But this was certainly not "tithing", tithing" was a command only for the Levites under the law and of the Jews. Tithing had specific aspects to it.
 
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LoveofTruth

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to all, this shows tithing is not for gentiles or for any today

"5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:...12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." (Hebrews 7:5,12 KJV)
 
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LoveofTruth

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I have also seen that many today try to justify their religious traditions and commandments of men by making statements that are not scriptpural or based in the word. They may say things like, " we went to the church building yesterday" and when they are confronted on that statement and shown that there is no such thing as a church building, and that we the believers are the body of Christ, the church, a spiritual house built up, they still try to defend their traditions of men. To do this shows that they lack faith in this area, or that they are not speaking in faith. We can only speak things in faith according to the word of God. If there is no word we cannot speak in faith but would be speaking in unbelief and carnal ways and error.
 
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LoveofTruth

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also a correction in the first post

I posted

"Todays situation is far different from the true Christ that Christ is building."

it should read,,
"Todays situation is far different from the true church that Christ is building."
 
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It is fascinating to see how folks like you think that you are somehow the anointed guardian of the faith and that all who came before you are ignoramuses with the intellect of a gnat. Your whole post seems to indicate that those who lived in the first six centuries, who defended the deity of Christ, established the canon of scripture, fought heresies such as Monophysitism and Monothelitism, were just ignorant savages of some kind who happened to know a little Greek.

And this is not your problem alone. The world is full of your type, full of pride in what you consider to be your "important discovery of the truth" that no one else for ages discovered until God saw how brilliant you are and decided to open His mysteries to you and you alone. Whether it's Harold Camping and his bizarre numerology, Ellen White and her mysterious "bright light" that illumined the Bible, Charles Taze Russell and the rediscovery of Arian truth, or the "Golden Plates of Moroni" given to Joseph Smith, it's always the same thing - the Early Church and the first preachers left the faith almost before the vapor trails of Christ's Ascension into heaven had vanished.

The staggering length alone of your OP shows me that you feel you are on a mission to show all of us stupid people the errors of our way. Well, good luck with that. I will stick with the Church and the Early Fathers over anyone who came later. Those closest to Christ and who learned from the Apostles, I trust.

You? Not so much.
 
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Light of the East

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Another hinderance to God’s order is the showtime atmosphere influencing assemblies.

1 Showtime has its huge decorated theaters, and today many religeous building have the same, with their floodlights and ushers, and stages.

2. Showtime has its’s programs that are handed out and all the show is on a tight time schedule. This is similar to programs and tight time schedules in assemblies today.

3.Showtime has its famous superstars who have their pictures in large frames in the lobby and their names in lights on signs. Many religious places have this also.

4.Showtime has it’s actors, who rehearse their words and perform for pay. In many assemblies, ministers have rehearsed sermons and they get paid for a good message.

5. Showtime has its audiences with applause, who just sit in the chairs, and watch the show. Most gatherings today have their audiences with applause who just sit in the pews and watch the show.


Congratulations on hitting this one "SPOT-ON" as they say. You definitely nailed this one.

Just for grins and giggles, I used to tune into SonLight Radio whenever I drove in or about Chambersburg PA. Whenever I would punch the radio button and it was music time, I wasn't sure if it was a religious meeting or a good, ole honky-tonk.

Ah yea, the Jimmy Swaggart Traveling Road Show and Medicinal Emporium!! Fabulous show!
 
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God's Order VS Man's Order

God’s order in the body of Christ is His spiritual working in every part as he leads and empowers believers in all things. This spiritual order manifest in the body as we function in our daily lives and when gathered together. Though hidden from the eyes of natural men, it is there nevertheless. This order begins in the spirit and the patient waiting on God as He leads into all gifts, ministry and fruits of the Spirit and functioning of the church. No person can know this order unless they are in Christ, and walk in the spirit. But sadly, even many christians today are drawn away from God’s order and rule in their hearts into a religious form of man’s order and exalted leaders.

I agree.

Man’s order does not begin in the spirit, it begins in man’s natural mind and human wisdom, and is regulated by programs and traditions of men in the rudiments of the world that can make the word of God of no effect.

There is an authentic Apostolic Tradition referenced by St. Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:15, which we can contrast with the false Pharisaical traditions of men which our Lord objected to.

Jesus said, “I will build my church” and he is fully able to do this by his power and might, which he has been doing all along.

I agree.

But If you ask many believers today, "how is a church built?” They would say something like, “well, first you save up money for years with a gathering, or one that meets in a school or community center and then you buy a piece of land or go into debt, hire a construction crew and you pay them to build the church building. Then you put some pews in it, build an altar and pulpit, have a Pastor over all and make a name for it, put a sign up on the lawn, register with the government and there you go, the church is ready.

Here, you engage in rather disagreeable wordplay owing to the fact that in English and various Germanic languages, among others, the word for Church as in the entity is the same usually used to refer to the actual building, which we call a Temple in the holy Orthodox Church.

Then the whole assembly comes in and sit in rows facing the back of each others heads as they look forward to the exalted man on the podium, or “altar”, who gives a message to the church every week.”

The altar is not the same as the pulpit or "podium" as you call it. Pulpits are a feature of churches in the Western liturgical rites; Eastern churches tend not to have them, although there is nothing doctrinally or conceptually disagreeable from the perepective.

The Pulpit is, at any rate, separate, distinct from nd outside of the Altar, which is why in those churches that do have them, they are traditionally located outside of the chancel and in the nave.

Nor is the priest or bishop exalted, except by virtue of acting in persone Christi, which is therefore the most extreme form of service and humility which can be assumed.

But this is not how Jesus Christ builds his church, nor has he ever built His church this way.

More disagreeable exploitation of a linguistic quirk in the Germanic languages.

Christ builds his church from the inside out and this work starts from within all believers. The “church” is the body of Christ (Eph. 1:22, 23) and a living organism. It is a spiritual house made up of living stones (1 Peter 2:5), which is built up in the revelation of Jesus Christ. This is the starting point of Jesus building. It is not a man made religious building or a corporation with bosses and employees. Jesus Christ is the head of the church, which is his body, he is not the head of institutions and man made forms.

This sounds to me like Invisible Church ecclesiology, which is wrong. The Church is one visible entity ordained by our Lord, given the Great Commission in Matthew 28:19. The Church has always existed; its current status beginning at Pentecost, but before then, we can say that ancient Israel performed the same function. The Church cannot be destroyed by apostasy, as it is the Body of Christ, and the gates of Hell cannot prevail against it. Matthew 16:18

In God’s order, all believers must “...grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.“ (Ephesians 4:15,16). This edifying (or building up) of one another in love is how Christ builds His Church from the inside out.

It would be more accurate to say that is a description of Theosis, or the deificiafion of the members of the Church to become by grace what Christ is by nature, sons of God by adoption.

In God’s order He arranges all things after His mighty working
in the saints (Heb. 13:20, 21) as believers labourer together with him (1 Cor. 3:9). This order begins in the peace of God and by His rule (or governing) in the spirit (Col.3:15) as we wait on the Lord for ministry in the body one to another. Only then can we grow up into him (Eph. 4:15).
All who worship God must worship Him in spirit and in truth (John 4:24).

I agree.

For there is no life, salvation, ministry, or true church outside of Jesus Christ in the spirit. This is far different than man’s order, wisdom and traditions, that have dominated christianity for centuries.

Human order, wisdom and false traditions have dominated only those parts of the Church which capitulated to them, and thus ceased to be parts of the Church per se, and became separated from the holy Orthodox church through schism.

Despite the multitudes of believers who gather in these religious forms, with their various spiritual moments, the evangelistic aspect and some other good ministration seen in many of them, there is a great problem in the churches today and it must be addressed. It is still true today that, “Except the Lord build the house they labour in vain that build it” (Psalm 127:1).

This simply underscores the importance of ecumenical reconciliation. By setting aside certain erroneous misconceptions and returning to embrace full communion with the Orthodox, certain western churches which are in error can be delivered from that state.

Many christians who gather today may seem to be rich and increased with goods and think they have need of nothing, but many are unaware that they are “wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind and naked” (Revelation 3:17). Jesus said these serious words to the Church of Laodicea, but he also said, “Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come into him, and will sup with him and he with me” (Revelation 3:20). Jesus wants to dwell in the hearts of all those who will open to him and to “sup” with them, or to participate with them in the assembly as they gather. Without this participation of the Lord among the church they are in danger. Jesus said to the Laodicean church “I will spue thee out of my mouth.” (Revelation 3:16)
These words to Laodicea, echo to many churches today as well and this sober exhortation is the same.

And yet the church in Laodicea went on to heed the instructions of our Lord, and is thus still to this day extant as a part of the Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch, unlike several other churches in Revelations which sadly ceased to become extant with the Turkish genocide of Armenian, Assyrian and Pontic Greek Christians and the Greco-Turkish population exchanges that followed.

Even the church of Ephesus, the see of St. John the Apostle, is tragically basically defunct except as a place of pilgrimage.

Whereas for the moment at least, Laodicea, or Latakia as it is now known, still has substantial numbers of Orthodox Christians who are still members of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church mentioned in the Nicene Creed.

All christian gatherings should consider this question, “is Jesus Christ standing outside knocking or is he in the midst being able to effectually work in believers as they assemble?”

In the case of Orthodoxy, he is certainly in the midst of us. Regarding other denominations, I cannot say for sure, although I believe some of them are effectively Orthodox but separated from us only from a schism of a purely political nature, whereas in the case of other denominations, while they remain nominally Christian, they clearly have moved rather substantially contrary to the instructions of our Lord and do not really worship him (some, such as the Unitarians of Hungary and Transylvania, although still nominally Christian, would have us reject the deity of our Lord, which would preclude us from worshipping Him at all!)

For Christians to be able to function fully as the body of Christ, they need to withdraw from man’s order and walk in God’s order, even though this will be very hard for some.

I agree. Although I suspect we would not agree on the definition of God's order.

This one aspect alone is so different than most of man’s order today, where all the body is stifled and silenced by the one man pastor ministry or a few others with their programmed order, where all are bound up and unable to freely edify one another. Instead they are drawn to the exalted man who does most of the ministry. This is wrong and needs to change.

The New Testament clearly describes a pastoeal leadership function in the church of bishops and priests (presbyters, or elders), and deacons, and outlines in the Pastoral Epistles of St. Paul, to Timothy, and elsewhere, the qualifications for holding this office.

What is more, if anyone edifies in a manner contrary to the Apostolic tradition, they are anathema (Galatians 1:8).

Scripture speaks of a plurality of “elders in every church” (Acts 14:23). Never do we read of one man in the New Testament called “The Pastor” over all doing most of the ministry and getting a regular salary.

No, but we do read of bishops (overseers, episcopoi), priests (prebytere, which means elders) and deacons.

This threefold hierarchy has been preserved in the Holy Orthodox Church but sadly has been lost in some denominations which in an overreaction to certain failures within the Roman Catholic Church (which I would argue had departed from the NT model through a rejection of the principle of the equality of bishops within a synod, through the creation of the Papacy and the Cardinalate, holders of which have substantially increased authority compared to even the Patriarch of an Orthodox Church), discarded the Episcopate.

Bishops are not optional. The first century martyr and disciple of St. John, St. Ignatius of Antioch, who the Romans fed to lions, wrote "Let nothing be done without the bishop."

Furthermore, we read of the church gathering in homes and having a meal together as they ministered to one another, in prayer and fellowship. The institutional church structures today with their programs and clergy, have hinder many of these functions in the church.

The church we find in Acts was clearly an institution, albeit a God-created and God-protected one. We find the eleven apostles ordaining St. Matthias to join their number; the Apostles were the first bishops. They ordained the seven deacons, one of which, St. Stephen, was the first Christian to be martyred. They ordained elders to lead the individual local congregations. And they met at a council in Acts 15 to resolve a question concerning the reception of Gentiles, an event which was the Scriptural prototype for the great ecumenical councils at Nicea, Constantinople and elsewhere, and also the local councils and synodical gatherings of bishops throughout the church.

In fact, when examining man’s order as opposed to God’s order we see that almost everything that is done today, from walking up to the large building with a denominational name,

The existence of multiple "denominations," or indeed the concept of denominations per se, are contrary to the unity of the Church. The word "denomination" is basically a euphemism coined so that we don't have to use the words "schism," "schismatics," "heterodox" or "heresy," but these are really the underlying truths which the denominational concept conceals.

To the extent that the Orthodox Church is identified as a denomination, it is only due to the semantic applications of this euphemism; it is not a capitulation to the false invisible church or branch ecclesiology the concept of denominations implies (or rather depends upon).

called a “church”, and everything in between that is on the programed order, from the Pastor over all who often quenches the spirit in others,

The holders of pastoral office have a duty to correct those who teach against the Apostolic faith, and if they refuse correction, to anathematize, under Galatians 1:8.

to their programs that do not allow the body to ministry freely,

If you are referring to the liturgy, in no sense does programmed worship preclude the free ministration of the laity to each other.

Rather, the liturgy consists of the bishop or priest leading the faithful in the celebration of the holy mysteries ordained by Christ for the church: baptism, the Eucharist, marriage, ordination, the annointing of the sick with oil, confession, and various euchological-sacramental services of consecration such as the Great Blessing of Waters on the feast of the Baptism of our Lord.

with the pastors sermon,

The homily is clearly a ministry assigned to the holders of pastoral office ij the New Testament.

the pulpit,

There is nothing wrong with pulpits.

worship leaders,

What is a "worship leader"?

women leaders,

Whereas the Orthodox Church does not ordain women to the priesthood or episcopate, we have had deaconesses. Furthermore, the entire nation of Georgia was converted to Christianity in the fourth century by St. Nino, an Armenian woman who we venerate as equal to the Apostles.

false authority, collections,

The early church collected funds for the assistance of the poor, martyrs, widows, et cetera.

dressing up,

That had better not be a reference to liturgical vestments.


The ancient church had doorkeepers to protect the faithful from agents of the Roman Empire who would otherwise have observed the gatherings and suppressed them. Doorkeepers are the lowest ranking of the Holy Orders, but are holy and sacred. Users can be seen as a continuation of that ministry.

theater type environment,

Orthodox churches do not have a theater like environment.

salaried ministers,
tithing,

Both of which are Biblical. It is wrong for the clergy to occupy themselves with worldly affairs, therefore, where possible, having them salaried is of benefit. Otherwise a priest would not be able to support his family. In the case of bishops, however, there is less of a need, since they are monastics, but even monasteries require funds to pay for the food, et cetera (this tends to come from monastic enterprise, but the contributions of the laity are also of benefit).

tax breaks from the government,

Nothing wrong with that. Although if the government imposed a tax it would be wrong to refuse to pay it.


These are biblical. We need a holy space in which to offer the supreme rational sacrifice of the Eucharist.


These are also Biblical.

exalted priest,

Addressed.

the silent body ministry, show time religion,

What?

no consensus decisions,

In Holy Orthodoxy all important decisions are made by consensus, not just between the bishops, but between the bishops and the laity. We call this principle Conciliarity or sobornost.

to shaking the pastors hand at the door,

In the Orthodox Church we kiss the right hand of our priests and bishops. We also kiss their stole during the liturgy.

God’s order was revealed to apostolic workers and also handed down to believers in scripture [...] today, believers led by God should walk in the same order and deliver the same order to others, especially those who are called to such apostolic work.

I agree.

Paul often warned christians against man’s traditions and order and to beware of anything that was not after Christ (Colossians. 2:8). This same warning is for all christians today and the dangers are just as real. But who has ears to hear this warning today?

What St. Paul was warning of were the false traditions of the Pharisees, and also the errors and innovations of the early heretics.

When people go away from God’s order, they become “disorderly”. Paul wrote how to deal with such people and said, “Withdraw from every brother that walketh disorderly and not after the traditions we handed down“(2 Thess. 3:6). Notice that, even if they are believers we are to withdraw from them.

Indeed so. Thus, we should withdraw from those who intentionally and not from ignorance or the cultural inertia of schism reject the apostolic faith.

But as soon as body ministry is alluded to and believers are exhorted to do this, many will cry out against it by wrongly using this verse to justify ther own man made programs and say, “Let all things be done decently and in order” (1 Cor. 14:40).

What do you mean by "body ministry"? Your post contains substantial use of terminologies which I am unfamiliar with, and at the same time what appears to be frequent recourse to neologism to describe functions of the Church where you seem to be unfamiliar with the words we actually use.

Paul was not writing the commandments and traditions of men to believers as some may try to imply.

The traditions of the Holy Apostles, and their commandments, are of God, and not of men.

In another place Paul said, “And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.” (1 Cor. 11:34).
Again we see that , Paul was led by the Spirit to “set in order” things in the churches. He also mentions “the rest” of the things he needed to set in order showing his zeal for every area of God’s order.

1 Corinthians 11:27-34 attest to the importance of closed communion, of not partaking of the Eucharist while unworthy.

Paul taught all believers to keep this order, “Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.” (2 Thessalonians 2:15). And he wrote, “Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you” (1 Corinthians 11:2). Can anyone say that such things were unimportant for the assemblies?

This order was for all the believers, “For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.” (1 Cor. 4:17). Paul taught the same things “everywhere” and in “every church”. So are any churches today exempt? Why would any christian want to do anything different?

Indeed so. I cannot understand why any one would not want to be Orthodox, particularly since we have Western Rite parishes which follow the liturgical norms of the West in a manner compatible with the apostolic kerygma.

“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power” (Col. 2:8).
All christians should take this warning seriously. Unless the word “BEWARE” is not serious enough?

This warning, I suspect, refers to Gnosticism, which made rather a big deal about the "fullness," or pleroma, and which was largely derived from the philosophical speculations of Plato.

I will take a closer look, but the language St. Paul uses there appears to be a a very direct and explicit criticism of Gnosticism.

The Pastor over all?

The one man “Pastor ministry” that has dominated Christendom for a long time often hinders God’s order. This is also seen as the false “clergy/laity division”. This tradition of men is contrary to God’s order of plurality of ministering elders in every church (James 5:14, Acts 14:23) and the various giftings to the body of Christ. We read in Ephesians 4:11 that God gave ”gave some, apostles; and some,
prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:”, All of these gifts are needed in the body for perfecting and edifying.
In God’s order there are more giftings than just pastors, in fact, we never read of a one man pastor gift over a church in the New Testament, doing most of the ministry. Instead, we always see a plurality of “elders in every church” (Acts 14:23). Yet unfortunately today, this one man ministry dominates christan assemblies all over the world and people love to have it so.
The one man pastor ministry tradition quenches the spirit in others and hinders the body from edifying itself under Christ headship in the gatherings and the mutual edification where all are commanded to wait on the Lord and freely be able use their gifts. This aspect of God’s order is clearly seen in the scriptures; Eph. 4:11-16, 1 Cor. 12:7-25, 1 Peter 4:10,11, 1 Cor. 14:26-37, 1 Thess. 5:11, Rom. 12:1-10, Col. 2:10,19.
How can the church function as they should when the entire gatherings are dominated by one man and body edification is hindered? At best, these large meetings are similar to evangelistic meetings or a big lecture. But regardless, this tradition of one man over all has hindered the church and the God’s order greatly. How can every one have, when only a Pastor gift is allowed to speak and minister freely?

False Authority?

Jesus said , ”Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; 27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:” (Matt. 20:25-27, Mark 10:42,43, Luke 22:25,26). Jesus corrected the false idea of men ruling over others by telling them to be “servants”. A servant has no authority in the world, but as they serve others, speaking and living the word of God they do.
The word “dominion” means to control and lord over. Jesus said this should not be among the saints and “authority” is not to be like the Gentile rulers. But many gatherings are set up this way today .
The pharisees challenged Jesus authority and asked him “By what authority doest thou these things?” (Matt. 21:23), they asked this because they did not recognize him in authority. Jesus was not a political,
ruler as they knew, but when he spoke His word he spoke as one having authorty, not as they did. This authority is similar to those christians who walk in the word of God today. The authortiy is not in a positional authority, but rather a moral, spiritual authority in Christ and in the ministry of word and their life example. Spiritual authority flows from Christ to the body, it is not a static office.
Paul said, “Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy” (2 Cor. 1:24). The words “we have dominion” in Greek means, “To rule:- have dominion over, lord, be lord of, exercise lordship over”, from 2962, “...supreme in authority, i.e. (as a noun) controller: by implication, Master (as a respectful title)...”. Yet this is exactly what we see in the exalted men over the body today. They have supreme authority and control over others and many even call them, “Master of Divinity”. But Jesus said call no man master. A master means, “a guide” from “to lead”. But all believers are to be led by the Spirit (Rom. 8:14) and the Holy Spirit will guide them into all truth (John 16:13), they have no need that any man should teach them (1 John 2:27). The old man is crucified, and they listen to the new man in the anointing.

Man made Programs?

In many assemblies today we see a program dictating the order of these religious forms. The very idea of a “program” fights against waiting on the Lord for ministry and the function of the body in Christ.
Usually in these programs there is a sermon, or litergy, a few songs, announcements, collections of money and no one else is on the program unless slotted in by the man in control. This order of man is not right.
Clearly in scripture we see the exact oppostie of a programs and a one man pastor ministry. We see a body where Christ is the head working effectually in every part unto the edifying of one another (Eph. 4:16). Paul said “...the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.” (1 Cor. 12:7). And yet today it would be read, as “a manifestation of the spirit is given to the pastor in man’s programs”.

Lecture format order?

Another hindrance to God’s order is the entire lecture format in the gatherings. This is where everyone sits in pews and looks at the back of someone’s head and all eyes are drawn away to the speaker on the podium behind the pulpit where the so called ”Reverend” or “The Pastor” speaks his message, which is very much like a lecture in an auditorium or school.
As in architecture, “form follows function” and so if the function of a place to meet in is for a Lecture, then the form of the building will be with everyone facing the front. But in the assembly of believers, the function is for mutual edification, and so the form would not be in a large lecture format looking to the front. This very form fights against body ministry.
In the scriptures we see believers meeting in homes and edifying one another which is more conducive to body life. If the function of a church is for all to wait on God and edify one another and use their gifts, then the form of the gathering would not be
focused on a man at the front, but more of a family type environment to allow for the function of the body of Christ as he leads.
The giftings that God gives and the ministry in the spirit cannot be preplanned by man’s order. But to have a lecture, where one man prearranges the message under tight time frames where all is planned and he preforms on a stage or an“ altar”, is not biblical and cuts off the freedom of the Spirit in God’s order.
Many lecture type meetings may at best be evangelistic etc., but this is at the cost of the function of the church.

The Supper of The Lord

Today we see the Lords supper as a small snack and not a full meal as in scripture. Not having a meal together in a covenant communion relationship with each other is a great loss for many (1 Cor. 11:33).
How often today do we see the supper as a cracker and shot glass of grape juice, yet the word “supper”, means, “the chief meal”. The early believers had what was called a “love feast” and they did this often.
Jesus said to Laodicea that he wanted to sup with them, but sadly he was outside (Rev. 3:20). Part of that communion and participation is inward with the Lord and with each other (1 Cor 10:17). This is the same spiritual food all the saints of all time (1 Cor 10:17).
Having a meal together is a vital aspect.
“And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread...” (Acts 20:7). Having a full meal together in the time of Jesus was a very intimate thing and a time of close fellowship. This is one of the reasons they came together.

Paid Ministers?

Though some may not see this as a hindrance to God’s order, it is. When one man called “The Pastor” and a few others get paid a wage to minister over the body this makes their function dominant over others and creates a schism in the body. Why would the believers need to minister to one another If they pay the one man pastor to do so?
This makes christians dependent on the “experts” and those men called “Pastors” to do most of the ministry. But if all the body was to function properly under Christ headship, they would soon realize that they don’t need to have one man paid or exalted above the rest and that God works through all the body.
In scripture we see that Paul taught the elders to work with their own hands, “I have coveted no man’s silver, or gold, or apparel.34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.“(Acts 20: 34-36).
Local elders should work. If some are sent in Itinterant work however, (I speak specifically of apostles, and evangelist) who are led that way, they can receive benefits to help them in ministry. But Paul himself was reluctant to do this.
Those in itinerant work have a need to be helped in the work. This is because they come to a town and do not have work right away and may be there temporarily. Paul says these itinerant “preachers” of the gospel (particularly apostles) can receive help. But this is specifically for itinerant workers (1 Corinthians 9:5,14 ), not for local elders.
The expression “double honour” in 1 Timothy 5:17, also can refer to “esteem” and “value” for elders , similar to 1 Thess. 5:12,13, not a regular salary as some make it. The same word “honour” is used in 1 Timothy 6:1 for servants “honouring” their masters. But servants do not pay their masters?

One Man Makes decisions
no Concensus?


Another hinderance is when the whole body is not allowed to make decisions in a “concensus”. But instead one man, usually “the pastor”, makes most of the decisions for the whole church. He may have some people “under” him who he consults or even a board that makes decisions. But all these forms hinder the order of God in the church.
The word “consensus” means, “to make judgements, opinions or decisions as a whole group”. We see different examples in the New Testament of decision making where they all came to a consensus, “Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men...”(Acts 15:22-25 , 1 Cor. 1:10, Matt. 18:17). Clearly, the whole church was all involved.

Song Leaders?

Another unusual hinderance to God’s order is having a “song leader”. This may not seem a hinderance to many, but again, by having one man over all as a leader in spiritual worship hinders every part of the body from having a hymn or a spiritual song as Paul wrote, “Let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.” (Colossians 3:16,17).
All that we do must be in the name of the Lord, or in the character, life and power of the Spirit. This is the only way that we can truly worship, as Jesus said, “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. “(John 4:24).
We must worship God this way, there is no option. But to have a pre-programmed order from a song leader can quench the Spirit. All things we do must be in Christ for “By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually...”(Hebrews 13:15).
It is Jesus Christ in the midst of the church effectually working in every part, “...for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee” (Hebrews 2:11,12).
Having said this, it is not wrong to have songs in a book or musicians who can follow along with songs from others as they are led.

Tithing?

Many believers today are bound up under Old Testament law and other aspects to maintain their whole system. Tithing is one of those errors. Only the Levites had a commandment to take tithes as we read , “And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren...” (Hebrews 7:5).
No Gentile has such a commandment. The priesthood and law are changed that took tithes (Heb. 7:12) and giving in the New Testament is not the same, as Paul said, “Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.” (2 Cor. 9:7). Yet, tithing in the Old Testament was part of the Mosaic law and a necessity.
In Acts 15 some tried to put believers under the law of Moses (Acts 15:1,5). But the church concluded that they were not to be put under the law of Moses, which would include tithing as part of the law (Acts 15:24, and Acts 21:25). None should put believers under tithing today either.

The Pulpit?

Another unusual hinderance to God’s order is this thing called the “Pulpit”. In history we see a pulpit being used for announcements and readings in many religious gatherings. But eventually it was brought into protestant gatherings and it replaced the altar and sacrificial system of the Roman church. The reading of the scriptures was central and all the meeting was around the scripture reading. While this is better than the altar and Catholic Mass, it still replaced the purpose and function of the church meeting, which is the gathering of believers in Christ as He works effectually in the body to edify itself in love (Eph. 4:15,16).
This thing called the “pulpit ministry”, is where one man over all has freedom alone to speak there. But just having the pulpit there can distract from God’s order in the gatherings. There is no need of a pulpit if believers meet in homes.


Showtime religion

Another hinderance to God’s order is the showtime atmosphere influencing assemblies.

1 Showtime has its huge decorated theaters, and today many religeous building have the same, with their floodlights and ushers, and stages.

2. Showtime has its’s programs that are handed out and all the show is on a tight time schedule. This is similar to programs and tight time schedules in assemblies today.

3.Showtime has its famous superstars who have their pictures in large frames in the lobby and their names in lights on signs. Many religious places have this also.

4.Showtime has it’s actors, who rehearse their words and perform for pay. In many assemblies, ministers have rehearsed sermons and they get paid for a good message.

5. Showtime has its audiences with applause, who just sit in the chairs, and watch the show. Most gatherings today have their audiences with applause who just sit in the pews and watch the show.


The Dangers of
man-made religion


Even though there may be some benefits in many relgious forms today, the spiritual dangers are more so. The order of most churches today is; wrong, spiritually dangerous and hindering to the body of Christ and Christ headship. It creates a dysfunctional body, cuts off body ministry and the gifts from freely functioning, fights against the commands of God for the church, sets up men as heads of the church in controlling, dominant, exalted roles over others as lords and rulers. It creates schisms in the body of Christ at large, quenches the spirit in the gatherings in many ways, makes the word of God of no effect by their traditions, hinders the family environment of the body of Christ, and the fellowship in the breaking of bread, replaces the organic body of Christ with organizations and programs, sets up institutions, and entangles itself with the rudiments of the world.

While believers are to gather physically and be subject to God's order and discipline of the church. The church functions and moves in Christ and His leading in the spirit and inwardly as he works in every believer to edify one another, or to build up one another. The church is both a spiritual house inwardly connected to each other in Christ and a spiritual body inwardly connected as the body of Christ with many parts of that body each one working as they are led by God. But they are also lively stones built up and they physically gather together , having their flesh crucified and dead so that they can let the life of Christ dwell in them and manifest in their bodies. They bring their bodies in subjection to Christ and to one another in Christ as we submit to one another in the truth.

Elder/overseers, are simply more mature brothers who help and watch over (not Lord over) others and feed . Babies are unskillful in the word of righteousness but they can still move and speak and function in the body as they are led as well and to grow up into Christ the head as he leads.

Todays situation is far different from the true Christ that Christ is building. While there may be many believers in these religious forms and confusion. God calls them out to gather in Him and with the body and to let His peace rule or govern in their hearts and the Word of Christ to dwell in them richly, from this they will teach and admonish one another in love.

Let everything that can be shaken be shaken, so that all we see is that glorious image of Christ. Those that worship God MUST worship Him in spirit and in truth.
 
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Light of the East

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This tradition of men has come from way back where men were drawn away from the apostolic order of meeting in homes (through the leading of the Spirit) unto to the large pagan type temples. The believers met in homes for close to 300 years after Christ death for the most part. It was around 325 A.D when believers began moving away from this with the building projects of Constantine and others. This did not begin in the New Testament church as we see in scripture. The believers met in homes at first having favour with all the people and not because of persecution (Acts 2:46,47).

Do you remember that Jesus compared the coming Kingdom of God in the New Covenant to a mustard seed? It is put into the earth the tiniest of all seeds and grows into a great tree.

Now....does the seed look anything at all like the finished and grown tree? Of course not. The Book of Acts is the "seed stage" of the New Covenant for the Church. You simply cannot take Acts and say that this is the pattern for all ages. In the growth of the Church, several things come into play which you have not addressed:

1. The animus of the Jews to this new "religion" called "The Way." It wasn't real long before Peter, Paul, and the rest of the Christians were highly unwelcome in the temple and synagogues. Hence the need for house congregations.

2. The persecution of the Romans and pagans. When the diaspora took place, the Christians were not exactly welcome there either. The various caesars made life pretty challenging for this new religion, hence the underground meetings.

3. The idea of church buildings is predicated upon the Old Covenant example of a specific place to worship given by God. In the desert it was the mobile tabernacle. Once Israel was established, it became the Temple as the main place of worship.

4. As the Gospel spread and nations began to come to Christ, what would you expect them to do? Go to Rome to worship? Stay in their houses, which could hardly accommodate crowds the size of which came into existence with the conversion of whole towns and villages. The Hagia Sophia, that great cathedral in Constantinople. used to hold several THOUSANDS of worshipers on a Sunday. How does a "house church" fit into that schema for you?

Your mistake is taking the seed and making it be the tree. The Kingdom grew, and with it, the necessary changes to adapt it to its growth.
 
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redleghunter

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Yes there are many many true believers bound up in these traditions of men and in many ways the mass of confusion is Mystery Babylon. God tells His people to come out of it. We see that God's people are in it

did you read the disorder in these places as i showed. Things like one man pastor ministry over all programs and no body ministry etc?
Is this the mega church phenomenon you mainly speak of?
 
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