Why is YHWH translated as LORD in most English Bibles?

DamianWarS said:

LORD is a common translation. The all caps is separates it from general "Lord". Adonai (which is actually is lord) was a common substitution for the word in ancient Jewish texts or when reading so it is somewhat fitting for it to be translated as LORD today.

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Adon is Lord, Adonai is 'my Lords' (plural), but a special form is used when speaking of YHWH that sounds the same but is pointed slightly different. Additionally it is used with singular verbs in the same way that Elohim when speaking about YHWH is used with singular verbs.

Example: ‎ וְיִתֵּ֥ן אֲדֹנָ֖י בְּיַ֥ד הַמֶּֽלֶךְ׃ (1 Ki. 22:6 BHS)

However I believe YHWH as a sacred name of God is a misnomer. The name came from Exodus 3:15 but in context God tells us the name in Exodus 3:14 where he tells Moses to say "I AM has sent me to you" And that's his name... "I AM" of course this isn't a name at all this is a state of being that is above all names so I think we miss the point when we exalt this name.

In Hebrew the word for "name" is shem. Hebrew is an extremely concrete language and "name" is too abstract of a translation. the word is directly related to breath (neshamah) and is like saying the reputation, character or "breath" of God. Exodus 3:15 doesn't stop at YHWH and it says

Exodus 3:15
“Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘[YHWH], the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is My [shem] forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations"​

This is the "shem of God" not the name of God and it doesn't stop at the first 4 letters.

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First, the idea of a 'name' (shem) is a very concrete idea in biblical Hebrew and 'name' is used very similarly to the way it is used in English. Examples:

‎ וַיִּקְרָ֧א הָֽאָדָ֛ם שֵׁ֥ם אִשְׁתּ֖וֹ חַוָּ֑ה כִּ֛י הִ֥וא הָֽיְתָ֖ה אֵ֥ם כָּל־חָֽי (Gen. 3:20 BHS)
And the man called his wife Eve because she was the mother of all living.

‎ וַיִּקְרָ֤א שֵׁם־הָֽאַחַת֙ יְמִימָ֔ה וְשֵׁ֥ם הַשֵּׁנִ֖ית קְצִיעָ֑ה וְשֵׁ֥ם הַשְּׁלִישִׁ֖ית קֶ֥רֶן הַפּֽוּךְ (Job 42:14 BHS)
And he called the name of the first Jemimah, and the name of the second Cassia, and the name of the third Keren-Happuch.

Second, and more importantly, you cannot separate Ex. 3:14 from 3:15 this way, the name spoken of in 3:15 refers to the "I AM" of 3:14.

YHWH is related to HYH (hayah). What is hayah? It is the "I AM" in verse 14 that was originally spoken as the name.

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HYH is the root from which the "I AM" in verse 14 is derived but, as conjugated, the form would be the 3rd person perfect singular i.e. "He was."

YHWH can in fact be the 2nd person singular of Hayah (pronounced as "Yihweh")... so not "I AM" but "HE IS".

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"He is" correct for YHWH, but that is 3rd person imperfect singular, not 2nd person. 2nd person is "You are."

So again this name is not a name at all, it is a state of being. God is above languages and names. His "shem" is the all existent, eternal one, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jews, Christians and Muslims alike agree on this regardless of the words they use and it shows us that his character, his "shem" has transcended religions and cultures.

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It is a name, and very similar to other Semitic names of the time. Almost all names in biblical Hebrew were also parts of every day vocabulary. One of the struggles beginning Hebrew students have when reading the bible is distinguishing between names and common words.

Example: נתן נתן את הספר לדויד (Nathan gave the book to David) or (natan Natan et hasepher l'Dawid)

Here's an exquisite example of God's play on words as to what we should call Him ...
hope you enjoy

Hosea 2:16
"At that time," declares the Lord,
"you will call, My husband
you will never again call me My master.

The MT reads (tiqrÿi, "you will call"; Qal imperfect 2nd person feminine singular).
There are wordplays on the terms (ish) and (baal). The term (ishi, "my man, husband") is a title of affection (Genesis 2:23; genesis 3:6,16) as the counterpart to (ishah, "woman, wife")

And it shall be at that day, saith the Lord, The Gospel day, the times of the Gospel dispensation, the latter part of them; at the time of the conversion of the Jews, and the bringing in of the fullness of the Gentiles; at the time when God will allure and persuade them to seek the Messiah, and they shall turn to him; when he shall speak comfortably to them, and give them a door of hope, and all spiritual blessings, and cause them to sing as when they came out of Egypt:

that thou shalt call me Ishi; or, "my husband"
Returning to Christ their first husband, and being received by Him, their desire to Him, and full assurance of it; shall not only be allowed to call him their husband and say as the church did, "my beloved is mine, and I am his", Songs 8:14, or, "my man"

The man the Lord, the man Jehovah's fellow, Immanuel God with us, God in human nature; and so more manifestly points at Christ, who stands in the relation of a husband to his people: or, "my strength", as some interpret it; the husband being the strength, protection, and defence of the wife, the weaker vessel; so Christ is the strength of his saints, in whom they have righteousness and strength, and through whose strength they can do all things:

Isaiah 45:5
I am the Lord. There is no other God;
I am the only God.
I will make you strong,
even though you don't know me,

and shalt call me no more Baali; which means "my master" "Baali" represents lordship and fear.
Saints don't have the spirit of bondage to fear, but the spirit of adoption, whereby they call God their Father, and Christ their husband.It shouldn't ne mentioed because it may led to thinking of that idol, and remember him, which the Lord would not be linked to.

Hosea 2:17
I will never let her say the names of Baal again;
people won't use their names anymore.

Exodus 23:13
"Be sure to do all that I have said to you. You must not even say the names of other gods; those names must not come out of your mouth.

Zechariah 13:2
The Lord All-Powerful says, "At that time I will get rid of the names of the idols from the land; no one will remember them anymore. I will also remove the prophets and unclean spirits from the land.

"And it comes to pass in that day, is the saying of Jehovah, thou wilt call, My husband; and thou wilt no more call to me, My Baal."

The church will then enter once more into the right relation to its God. That is, the church as the feminine singular and the Lord as the masculine Godhead

Neogaia777 said:

There is a difference between "titles" ascribed to someone and their personal "name"... God's personal name is YHWH is Hebrew, Jehovah, in English, but his personal name, no one knows exactly what it means so as to define it, it remains still a mystery and probably will till Jesus comes back...

God Bless!

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Not really when the best name you have for one is a title. LORD is equivalent to Lord of lords, King of kings. The word lord may be a title, but there is but one that is above all lords. And, scripture does use this as a name, Deuteronomy 10:17, Psalm 136:3, 1 Timothy 6:15, Revelation 17:14, Revelation 19:16. Note Rev 19 even calls the title a name.


As far as any significance to the letters YHWH, it only has significance in the Hebrew language where DamianWarS in post 6 pointed out an association with HYH (hayah) which is the I AM used for God in verse 14 as the footnote in NIV says for verse 15; "The Hebrew for Lord sounds like and may be related to the Hebrew for I am in verse 14."

The letters YHWH mean nothing in English, if you insist on them you could just as well use IAMIAM along with explaining this new word to all English readers of scripture.

The point is that in Hebrew the letters YHWH had a meaning, an eternal God/LORD of lords, I AM. Now look at when Jesus referenced the story of the burning bush. Did he say anything about a "formal name" for God being YHWH? No, Jesus uses the word that appears in English translations, Lord. So if Jesus taught YHWH is equivilant to Lord, why can't we use Lord in the OT version of the story?

The significance is that if Jesus taught that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to be eternally living, then certainly God is eternal which I AM describes and sounds like Lord in Hebrew.

Thanks for the God Bless, and may he also bless you.

makes more sense with KJV.
Hosea 2:16
And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali.

benelchi said:

It is a name, and very similar to other Semitic names of the time. Almost all names in biblical Hebrew were also parts of every day vocabulary. One of the struggles beginning Hebrew students have when reading the bible is distinguishing between names and common words.

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Can you explain how it is important in the OT story of the burning bush that YHWH is to be understood to be a formal name but when Jesus referenced the text he uses Lord for YHWH?

This is one of my favorite verses, and you have really captured most of the word play. One additional note, Ba'al is used as Master, Ba'al (the false God), and Husband (Ba'ali is the most common way to say "My Husband" in Israel today. This verse is impossible to translate into English with all the same nuances that a Hebrew reader hears because the natural translation of אישי and בעלי is 'my husband' for both. The translator is faced with the a dilemma in this verse i.e. how do we show both the sameness of these words and the differences the same time.

Example: ‎ בָּ֣טַח בָּ֭הּ לֵ֣ב בַּעְלָ֑הּ (Prov. 31:11 BHS), most translations of this verse read something like "The heart of her husband trusts in her"


Sidenote: Looking at your name, I thought I would draw attention to the Job verse I quoted above. Most people don't recognize that the name of the middle daughter is "Cassia." In most bible translations they translate קְצִיעָ֑ה (Job 42:14) as Keziah when it is used as a name, but as cassia when it is used as a description of the cinnamon like spice i.e. "Myrrh, aloes, and cassia perfume all your garments; from ivory palaces harps bring you joy." (Ps. 45:8 HCSB). However, it is the same Hebrew word, and it should probably read today as "He named his first daughter Jemimah, his second Cassia, and his third Keren-happuch. No women as beautiful as Job's daughters could be found in all the land." (Job 42:14-15 HCSB)

~Cassia~ said:

Here's an exquisite example of God's play on words as to what we should call Him ...
hope you enjoy

Hosea 2:16
"At that time," declares the Lord,
"you will call, My husband
you will never again call me My master.

The MT reads (tiqrÿi, "you will call"; Qal imperfect 2nd person feminine singular).
There are wordplays on the terms (ish) and (baal). The term (ishi, "my man, husband") is a title of affection (Genesis 2:23; genesis 3:6,16) as the counterpart to (ishah, "woman, wife")

And it shall be at that day, saith the Lord, The Gospel day, the times of the Gospel dispensation, the latter part of them; at the time of the conversion of the Jews, and the bringing in of the fullness of the Gentiles; at the time when God will allure and persuade them to seek the Messiah, and they shall turn to him; when he shall speak comfortably to them, and give them a door of hope, and all spiritual blessings, and cause them to sing as when they came out of Egypt:

that thou shalt call me Ishi; or, "my husband"
Returning to Christ their first husband, and being received by Him, their desire to Him, and full assurance of it; shall not only be allowed to call him their husband and say as the church did, "my beloved is mine, and I am his", Songs 8:14, or, "my man"

The man the Lord, the man Jehovah's fellow, Immanuel God with us, God in human nature; and so more manifestly points at Christ, who stands in the relation of a husband to his people: or, "my strength", as some interpret it; the husband being the strength, protection, and defence of the wife, the weaker vessel; so Christ is the strength of his saints, in whom they have righteousness and strength, and through whose strength they can do all things:

Isaiah 45:5
I am the Lord. There is no other God;
I am the only God.
I will make you strong,
even though you don't know me,

and shalt call me no more Baali; which means "my master" "Baali" represents lordship and fear.
Saints don't have the spirit of bondage to fear, but the spirit of adoption, whereby they call God their Father, and Christ their husband.It shouldn't ne mentioed because it may led to thinking of that idol, and remember him, which the Lord would not be linked to.

Hosea 2:17
I will never let her say the names of Baal again;
people won't use their names anymore.

Exodus 23:13
"Be sure to do all that I have said to you. You must not even say the names of other gods; those names must not come out of your mouth.

Zechariah 13:2
The Lord All-Powerful says, "At that time I will get rid of the names of the idols from the land; no one will remember them anymore. I will also remove the prophets and unclean spirits from the land.

"And it comes to pass in that day, is the saying of Jehovah, thou wilt call, My husband; and thou wilt no more call to me, My Baal."

The church will then enter once more into the right relation to its God. That is, the church as the feminine singular and the Lord as the masculine Godhead

Click to expand...

AnticipateHisComing said:

Can you explain how it is important in the OT story of the burning bush that YHWH is to be understood to be a formal name but when Jesus referenced the text he uses Lord for YHWH?

Click to expand...

As I indicated in my other post, there was a very strong connection between Lord and YHWH for the Jewish people, when the read a text with YHWH they verbally substituted the name Adonai (My Lords). Note: This is still done today.

benelchi said:

This is one of my favorite verses, and you have really captured most of the word play. One additional note, Ba'al is used as Master, Ba'al (the false God), and Husband (Ba'ali is the most common way to say "My Husband" in Israel today. This verse is impossible to translate into English with all the same nuances that a Hebrew reader hears because the natural translation of אישי and בעלי is 'my husband' for both. The translator is faced with the a dilemma in this verse i.e. how do we show both the sameness of these words and the differences the same time.

Example: ‎ בָּ֣טַח בָּ֭הּ לֵ֣ב בַּעְלָ֑הּ (Prov. 31:11 BHS), most translations of this verse read something like "The heart of her husband trusts in her"


Sidenote: Looking at your name, I thought I would draw attention to the Job verse I quoted above. Most people don't recognize that the name of the middle daughter is "Cassia." In most bible translations they translate קְצִיעָ֑ה (Job 42:14) as Keziah when it is used as a name, but as cassia when it is used as a description of the cinnamon like spice i.e. "Myrrh, aloes, and cassia perfume all your garments; from ivory palaces harps bring you joy." (Ps. 45:8 HCSB). However, it is the same Hebrew word, and it should probably read today as "He named his first daughter Jemimah, his second Cassia, and his third Keren-happuch. No women as beautiful as Job's daughters could be found in all the land." (Job 42:14-15 HCSB)

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Psalms 45 is a great verse in it's praise to the household of God.
Actually Job's daughters gaining the inheritance in the first book written (being the only change that Job made) was the reason behind the name "~Cassia~"

Hosea 2:16 Is a favorite verse for me too so great to get more insight into it!

~Cassia~ said:

Psalms 45 is a great verse in it's praise to the household of God.
Actually Job's daughters gaining the inheritance in the first book written (being the only change that Job made) was the reason behind the name "~Cassia~"

Hosea 2:16 Is a favorite verse for me too so great to get more insight into it!

Click to expand...

My Daughter's name is "Keziah" one of Job's daughter's names...

God Bless!

AnticipateHisComing said:

Nice post.

I would like to elaborate on the idea of names. Start at the beginning, in creation God made the animals according to their kind, Genesis 1:24-25 God then brought the animals to man to name, Genesis 2:19-20. This is the ancient practice to assign names based on what one is. This means a name describes the object and is not just some random letters.

Now look at the name women and see how it was also formed based on a descriptive name for them. Genesis 2:23. Look throughout the OT to see numerous names for people and places based on descriptive features.

So if names are meant to describe the person, how could we on earth comprehend and formulate a name that was adequate in describing the glory of God? If no man has seen or can see the face/glory of God, how can we give a descriptive name to him? It would be deceiving to give God the greatest heavenly being an earthly name. Nothing on earth compares to his glory. The closest we have is the Sun which the brightness of God is compared to.

Paul when caught up to heaven saw "inexpressible" things, 2 Corinthians 12:4. Peter says God fills us with inexpressible joy, 1 Peter 1:8. The Angel of the Lord said his name was beyond understanding, Judges 13:18. How can we express a name for the inexpressible?

Now this thread is concentrating on Exodus 3:13-15, but what about Exodus 33:12-23? Moses, despite having seen God in the burning bush and multiple other times, still asked to see God in his glory. Moses wanted an even greater glimpse of God's glory. Note how God answers back, Exodus 33:19. He says he will proclaim his name in his presence. Now despite what translation of the text you use, I even dare you to go back to the original text to look for YHWH, God said he would SAY his name. YHWH is not pronounceable, so obviously God said something different than what was recorded in scripture, even in the original language text. I further doubt God spoke in Hebrew. I would bet he spoke his name as called in heaven, in the heavenly language. This was truly a special honor bestowed on Moses. So God passed in front of Moses and Moses saw the back of God, this was more glorious then the fire of Ex 3 and the other "face to face" meetings he had with God. It is only because he saw God in his glory that he could hear his name. It follows that none can say God's name without seeing the glory that Moses saw. And so we make do with LORD until we meet in heaven.

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Every Hebrew name has a meaning. In english our names have meaning too but are much more abstract and you have to go to some baby book to find the meaning. In hebrew (biblical hebrew) names are regular words that could be used every day. With that said I think you are missing the point a little, searching for a sacred string of sounds to represent the creator of the universe. Remember the concept of a "name" is a very abstract in english and it is not in hebrew. Although it can represent am abstract in Hebrew it does so through a concrete word and this affects the meaning of the word. So when God passed before Moses he proclaimed his "shem" to Moses. You've approached the text from an abstract world view and so expect that God spoke some sort of sacred word that humans can't pronounce. I don't know if that's true and the text doesn't indicate we are missing something but this focus on a name for God to me missing the big picture and is irresponsible to his Glory. To a pagan mindset that surrounded Moses this would have been counter-productive and Moses may very well have started worshiping that name. BTW it's not that the YHWH is un-pronounceable it's just that it is written with no vowel markers (as all ancient hebrew was) and it's pronunciation has been lost because there it is not spoken. Certainly when the word used in Exodus 3:15 was a hebrew word that Moses was able to pronounce to tell others about God.

benelchi said:

Adon is Lord, Adonai is 'my Lords' (plural), but a special form is used when speaking of YHWH that sounds the same but is pointed slightly different. Additionally it is used with singular verbs in the same way that Elohim when speaking about YHWH is used with singular verbs.

Example: ‎ וְיִתֵּ֥ן אֲדֹנָ֖י בְּיַ֥ד הַמֶּֽלֶךְ׃ (1 Ki. 22:6 BHS)



First, the idea of a 'name' (shem) is a very concrete idea in biblical Hebrew and 'name' is used very similarly to the way it is used in English. Examples:

‎ וַיִּקְרָ֧א הָֽאָדָ֛ם שֵׁ֥ם אִשְׁתּ֖וֹ חַוָּ֑ה כִּ֛י הִ֥וא הָֽיְתָ֖ה אֵ֥ם כָּל־חָֽי (Gen. 3:20 BHS)
And the man called his wife Eve because she was the mother of all living.

‎ וַיִּקְרָ֤א שֵׁם־הָֽאַחַת֙ יְמִימָ֔ה וְשֵׁ֥ם הַשֵּׁנִ֖ית קְצִיעָ֑ה וְשֵׁ֥ם הַשְּׁלִישִׁ֖ית קֶ֥רֶן הַפּֽוּךְ (Job 42:14 BHS)
And he called the name of the first Jemimah, and the name of the second Cassia, and the name of the third Keren-Happuch.

Second, and more importantly, you cannot separate Ex. 3:14 from 3:15 this way, the name spoken of in 3:15 refers to the "I AM" of 3:14.

HYH is the root from which the "I AM" in verse 14 is derived but, as conjugated, the form would be the 3rd person perfect singular i.e. "He was."

"He is" correct for YHWH, but that is 3rd person imperfect singular, not 2nd person. 2nd person is "You are."

It is a name, and very similar to other Semitic names of the time. Almost all names in biblical Hebrew were also parts of every day vocabulary. One of the struggles beginning Hebrew students have when reading the bible is distinguishing between names and common words.

Example: נתן נתן את הספר לדויד (Nathan gave the book to David) or (natan Natan et hasepher l'Dawid)

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thanks for the correction. YHWH is not the 2nd person as you rightly pointed out it is the 3ird person. The english "He is" was my intention as I put in.

regarding "shem". The english word "name" is an abstract where the ancient hebrew word "shem" is primarily a concrete. Yes it can be used as an abstract in a way we would identify as name but you cannot just extract the "concrete-ness" out of it and isolate the abstract. Isolating it as a mirror word for "name" is approaching it from an abstract worldview which was not the ancient hebrew mindset. They would approach things in a concrete worldview. So although "shem" can abstractly represent the english "name" it is not it's equal. The word actually has a much broader meaning and every time it is use it invokes this meaning not just the abstract that we are drawn too.

AnticipateHisComing said:

Hidden and complex ideas can be conveyed with simple and plain words.

I cringe every time one promotes an importance of "original languages" as if that the only way to truth.

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By translators who know them.
Where did I say "only way"?

AnticipateHisComing said:

Now this is just dramatic speculative hyperbole.

Your premise; YHWH with some missing vowels is a formal name for God with special meaning such that we can't/aren't allowed to say it.
Do you really think that God speaks in Hebrew?
Do you think that Adam spoke in Hebrew?
Do you think that the angels speak in Hebrew?

I say no to all, especially the last, as 1 Corinthians 13:1 says that the tongues of men are different than angels.

This means that when God gave Moses the letters to write for him YHWH, it was already a translation from the native language used in heaven. This means it is impossible for it to convey all the glory of his heavenly name. So if God translated a name for him in Hebrew, there is no dire consequence for us to translate it to another word in English.

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History disagrees with you.

DamianWarS said:

regarding "shem". The english word "name" is an abstract where the ancient hebrew word "shem" is primarily a concrete.

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NIDOTTE states "The word שם occurs approximately 770x in the sing, and 84x in the pl. In most cases the word simply means name.

Yes it can be used as an abstract in a way we would identify as name but you cannot just extract the "concrete-ness" out of it and isolate the abstract. Isolating it as a mirror word for "name" is approaching it from an abstract worldview which was not the ancient hebrew mindset. They would approach things in a concrete worldview. So although "shem" can abstractly represent the english "name" it is not it's equal. The word actually has a much broader meaning and every time it is use it invokes this meaning not just the abstract that we are drawn too.

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While I would acknowledge that names were viewed differently in the ANE i.e. the meaning of a given name was far more important to those in the ANE than it is to us today. People today can go their entire life without never really knowing what their name meant, but in the ANE they would understand the meaning of their name from early childhood. That being said, the idea that those in the ANE didn't think in abstract terms crumbles under the weight of evidence we have in the literature of the ANE which frequently communicates many abstract ideas i.e. about love, hate, faithfulness, truth, etc...

Ken Behrens said:

History disagrees with you.

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What specific examples from history do you have in mind?

benelchi said:

What specific examples from history do you have in mind?

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The books I read many years ago are long gone. Here is internet duplications:

First, that the vowels were forgotten, but originally used: line 6-7 par 2 The Tetragrammaton

Next, the development of sorcery tradition around the correct pronunciation: Par. 7 16.02.50, Wilkinson, Tetragrammaton | M. Resnick | The Medieval Review

The tradition of the tetragrammon in black magic: I have a link, but I am not posting it because of the prohibition in the website might affect it. It is direct quotes of sorcery spells showing the presumed effect of using the name. I will give it to you in private if you like.

Sorry, these are secondary sources.

Ken Behrens said:

I do wish that there would be a better option. Lord is the proper translation of adonai, and it is terribly confusing. Just another reason to learn to read the original languages.

Suppose that someone discovered the missing vowels in the name YHWH, and could prove that he was correct. He would not publish them or even let on that he knew them. There are legends from the last several centuries that Satanists believe that this name will cause the spiritual structure of the world to be upset, and placed under their magikcal control. Now I don't believe this is so, and I'm sure you don't either, but people have been killed for less.

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AnticipateHisComing said:

Now this is just dramatic speculative hyperbole.

Your premise; YHWH with some missing vowels is a formal name for God with special meaning such that we can't/aren't allowed to say it.
Do you really think that God speaks in Hebrew?
Do you think that Adam spoke in Hebrew?
Do you think that the angels speak in Hebrew?

I say no to all, especially the last, as 1 Corinthians 13:1 says that the tongues of men are different than angels.

This means that when God gave Moses the letters to write for him YHWH, it was already a translation from the native language used in heaven. This means it is impossible for it to convey all the glory of his heavenly name. So if God translated a name for him in Hebrew, there is no dire consequence for us to translate it to another word in English.

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Ken Behrens said:

History disagrees with you.

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My argument is not on some historic Satanist belief, but with your use of it to address some question in the OP. You speculate when you say "suppose that someone ..." You support the thought with Satanic thought of a most dramatic example, "will cause the spiritual structure of the world to be upset".

Your post appears to place some importance of YHWH as a formal name for God. My post argues against it. These posts seem to address the OP question:

"but why would God give us His name if we aren't supposed to use it?"

Now go back and read my post 17 for the argument presented if you wish to refute it. Sorry, just stating that some time in history Satanists believed something special in pronouncing the "special" name of God is a very weak argument, especially here on CF.

DamianWarS said:

Every Hebrew name has a meaning. In english our names have meaning too but are much more abstract and you have to go to some baby book to find the meaning. In hebrew (biblical hebrew) names are regular words that could be used every day. With that said I think you are missing the point a little, searching for a sacred string of sounds to represent the creator of the universe. Remember the concept of a "name" is a very abstract in english and it is not in hebrew. Although it can represent am abstract in Hebrew it does so through a concrete word and this affects the meaning of the word.

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It is because of my appreciation for names to represent in concrete terms what they are named for that I argue so. I propose that it is impossible for humans on this earth to comprehend the full glory of God. Therefore no earthly name would do him justice, be a true representative name for God. Now it is easy for us to use abstract comparisons to God and say he is brighter than the sun, but it is wrong to say God is sun and to use that name for him.

DamianWarS said:

So when God passed before Moses he proclaimed his "shem" to Moses. You've approached the text from an abstract world view and so expect that God spoke some sort of sacred word that humans can't pronounce. I don't know if that's true and the text doesn't indicate we are missing something but this focus on a name for God to me missing the big picture and is irresponsible to his Glory.

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Quite the opposite. I approach the text looking for a concrete name spoken by God that represents and contains the full glory of God. As previously argued, nothing on earth and no earthly name would suffice.

Do you acknowledge that in the story in Exodus 33 Moses asked for a peak into the glory of God? Do you acknowledge that Moses had previously seen the glory of God? Do you agree that God honored Moses' request and showed him even greater glory than Moses had seen before? Do you agree that God did this in two ways, by passing in front of him and saying his name? It follows that God's passing in front of Moses and his speaking of his name was more glorious than Moses' previous encounters. If not, there is no point to the story.

DamianWarS said:

To a pagan mindset that surrounded Moses this would have been counter-productive and Moses may very well have started worshiping that name.

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This is just conjecture and I don't even see an argument it it. Are you saying that God could not pronounce his heavenly name because Moses would misuse it? Understand that God chose Moses to lead his people. He knew his heart and I say it is only because Moses was so humble of a man that he was allowed, worthy and capable of seeing God's glory without it going to his head, Numbers 12:3.

DamianWarS said:

BTW it's not that the YHWH is un-pronounceable it's just that it is written with no vowel markers (as all ancient hebrew was) and it's pronunciation has been lost because there it is not spoken. Certainly when the word used in Exodus 3:15 was a hebrew word that Moses was able to pronounce to tell others about God.

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My argument is not over some tradition to not pronounce or even write YHWH with whatever missing vowels that might have originally been there. My argument is that the name is not a concrete name for God. I disagree with those that insist that the letters can't be changed over time or translated to a different word for other languages. Going back to the OP, I agree with translations dropping YHWH.

Lastly, if YHWH was an important formal name for God, than Jesus would have used it and taught it.

AnticipateHisComing said:

Now go back and read my post 17 for the argument presented if you wish to refute it. Sorry, just stating that some time in history Satanists believed something special in pronouncing the "special" name of God is a very weak argument, especially here on CF.

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I am not here to argue. If I post, it is to share what I know, and to meet like-minded people. I was concerned about your post 16, as you implied I believed it was the "only way". The important question about my response to #17 was asked by benelchi, and I answered with the documentation, as much as I could post without the actual spells. And the time in history is 200 years ago, as the details were published in a witchcraft encyclopedia I used to own.

benelchi said:

NIDOTTE states "The word שם occurs approximately 770x in the sing, and 84x in the pl. In most cases the word simply means name.

While I would acknowledge that names were viewed differently in the ANE i.e. the meaning of a given name was far more important to those in the ANE than it is to us today. People today can go their entire life without never really knowing what their name meant, but in the ANE they would understand the meaning of their name from early childhood. That being said, the idea that those in the ANE didn't think in abstract terms crumbles under the weight of evidence we have in the literature of the ANE which frequently communicates many abstract ideas i.e. about love, hate, faithfulness, truth, etc...

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We read the word "name" and we superimpose abstract thinking over that. You did a word search and your conclusion was that in most cases the english abstract was correct. However Just because we can easily do that from our abstract worldview doesn't mean it was the same for an AH (Ancient Hebrew). You mentioned there are plenty of abstracts in the bible but just because we see a word like "love" and push an abstract concept over it again doesn't make it the way an ANE approached it.

Love in hebrew is ahav (H157). The parent root is "hav"; this word is not in the bible but related words are havhav (H1890), noun for gift and yahav (H3051), a verb for provide. These words are all related and there meanings analogous; not the same but within the same framework. Love in english is a fully abstract thought or emotion; it is something we feel or how we feel towards another and we generally get to choose this feeling or reject it. In Hebraic thought it had a fuller meaning somehow connected to this idea of provision and gift. Love is approached much differently, a person did not choose their parents, siblings, community, children and even spouse. These are are gifts and provision from God and "love" is the product of this. "ahav" is derived from the product of these very concrete ideas and is not just an isolated abstract feeling that we choose.

If a AH said "I love this gift you gave me" it would be something like "I [ahav] this [havhav] you [yahav] me. Ignoring the english/hebrew superimposed with english grammar there still is an idea of how these words are connected. It is just not a coincidence they sound similar; these words and their meanings are related and it shows you the concrete mindset of an AH. Where in English each of those words have very isolated meanings that do not conjure up images of love, or gift or provision (whatever the case may be) when spoken.