Apocalypse

Douggg · Feb 3, 2017

Guide To The Bible said:
Very soon Satan himself will appear on Earth looking just like Jesus but he will claim to be Isa, the Muslim name for Jesus and will say the Muslims are right and the Christians are wrong.

Islam ends with Gog/Magog. Then the seven years begin right after. The Jews will think that the messianic age is about to begin, and the prince who shall come will be anointed the King of Israel making him the Antichrist. Then about 3 years 3 months later, he betrays the Jews, revealing himself as the man of sin. The Jews will be mortified and will reject him as continuing as their King of Israel - ending his role as the Antichrist.

God has the person killed and brought back to life as the beast - which the person is in that role as the beast for the remaining 42 months of the 7 years.

Bible2+ · Feb 4, 2017

BABerean2 said in post 57:

Mat 3:9 and do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.
Mat 3:10 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Regarding Matthew 3:10b, note that even under the New Covenant, even initially saved Jews, just as even initially saved Gentiles, must still bear good fruit (that is, do good works) if they are to obtain ultimate salvation. For while initial salvation is by grace through faith without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9), other passages show that initially saved people must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law) if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For believers must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that believers will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

BABerean2 said in post 57:

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Note that here, Paul cannot possibly mean that there are no believers who are Jews or Gentiles in any sense, because elsewhere he shows, for example, that believers remain either genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b). Similarly, Galatians 3:28 does not mean that there are no believers who are males or females, for clearly we are still males or females with regard to our genitals, and with regard to other matters (1 Timothy 2:11-12; 1 Corinthians 14:34-37; 1 Corinthians 11:4-16; 1 Peter 3:7a).

So Galatians 3:28 can only mean that there is no distinction between Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles, or between Christian males and Christian females, with regard to them being "one in Christ" (Galatians 3:28b), in the sense of them being one body in Christ (Ephesians 4:4-6), without distinction with regard to their salvation (Romans 10:12; 1 Corinthians 12:13; 1 Peter 3:7b).

Bible2+ · Feb 4, 2017

antletems said in post 59:

99% of Revelations has already happened by 70AD.

Note that Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are still future to us, because they are about "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b); and just as Jesus' second coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find its fulfillment, so the highly-detailed events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find their fulfillment.

That is, the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which Jesus will return immediately after (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), has not started yet. It will begin with a horrible war, which, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, will end up killing a fourth of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. After this war, there will be a terrible series of natural disasters historically unprecedented in their magnitude, such as a gigantic volcanic eruption (Revelation 6:12-14), possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera, and then the collapse into the ocean of another erupting volcano (Revelation 8:8-9), possibly one of the Canary Islands, the collapse of which could set up a huge tsunami which could destroy the eastern seaboard of the U.S.

If such a tsunami occurs, it could also cause a string of awful, Fukushima-type, nuclear-meltdown radiation disasters in the nuclear power plants and their nuclear-waste storage facilities all along the eastern seaboard of the U.S. Also, if the tsunami breaks open the germ-containment structures on Plum Island, just off the coast of Connecticut, especially-deadly viruses and bacteria could be washed inland and spread across the U.S. and Canada as they infect animals and people.

After the volcanic activity and possible tsunami, a comet will strike the earth (Revelation 8:10-11), possibly in the U.S. and Canadian Great Lakes region. As the comet falls from the sky, it will look like a great star, or like a burning lamp in the sky (Revelation 8:10). It will strike a region of the earth which contains a third of the world's fresh surface water (Revelation 8:10b), and it will contain some poisonous element which will poison that water so that many who drink from it will die (Revelation 8:11b).

Sometime after that, weird locust-like beings will swarm up from the bottomless pit of the earth to torment mankind with excruciating stings for five months (Revelation 9:2-10). The world could see them as "aliens" who had been hibernating for thousands of years in a cavern deep underground. The locust-like beings will not kill anyone, but they will make those they sting want to die, the pain will be so bad (Revelation 9:5-6).

And all of this will be part of only the first half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

--

Preterism (whether full or partial), as well as historicism (in its various modern forms), and pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, could all be animated by the same spirit of fear: that the church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For these five views of preterism, historicism, pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the church alive today that it will not have to physically suffer through that tribulation.

Preterism says that the tribulation happened in 70 AD (or a few years before and including 70 AD). Historicism says that it happened over a long period in history, such as during the rise and height of the RCC's power in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after. Pre-tribulation rapturism says that Jesus will return and rapture the church into the third heaven before the tribulation. Symbolicism says that the tribulation is only symbolic of theological themes which those in the church have always had to struggle with (e.g. Matthew 6:24), and is symbolic of only-local physical persecutions which some in the church have always had to face, and are still facing today in some places. And spiritualism says that the tribulation is only spiritual events which go on only within the hearts of individuals.

But when the almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 begins in our future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these five views have each tried to build up between the church and the tribulation, will be completely shattered (Ezekiel 13:10-12) as the church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-31, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). These five views may have left some in the church unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these five views could even contribute to some in the church ultimately losing their salvation because of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12) during the tribulation, when they become "offended" that God is making them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-12, Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22, Luke 8:13).

Even though the church today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the future tribulation, the church need not fear this (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13, Revelation 2:10). For even though many in the church will suffer and die during that time (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), this will be to their gain, as it will bring their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8; see also 2 Corinthians 4:17-18; 2 Timothy 2:12), and it will not rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' second coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Bible2+ · Feb 4, 2017

Douggg said in post 61:

Islam ends with Gog/Magog. Then the seven years begin right after.

Note that the Gog/Magog invasion of Israel (Ezekiel chapters 38-39) will not occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10), when there will be no defensive walls or fear of attack in Israel whatsoever (Ezekiel 38:11). This is the exact opposite of today's situation, when Israel is filled with very high defensive walls and is in constant fear of attack. At the beginning of the millennium, all present-day weapons of war throughout the world will be destroyed and they will not be allowed to be remade during the millennium (Micah 4:3-4). That is why after the millennium, the Gog/Magog armies will employ only rudimentary, wooden weapons like bows and arrows, spears, shields, and clubs (Ezekiel 39:9), which, after the defeat of the Gog/Magog armies, will be able to be used as convenient firewood by the people living in Israel at that time, instead of them having to go out and collect or cut down firewood from the forest (Ezekiel 39:10).

The Gog in Revelation 20:8 is the same as in Ezekiel chapters 38-39: an individual human whose personal name is "Gog" (Ezekiel 38:3). He will be the chief leader of a future country which will form somewhere north of Israel (Ezekiel 39:2, Ezekiel 38:15), and which will be called "Magog" (Ezekiel 38:2). It will include at least two major cities and/or tribes which will be called "Meshech" and "Tubal" (Ezekiel 38:2). This country could come into existence during the millennium. Gog could be born near the end of the millennium, and he will be killed and buried at the end of the Gog/Magog event (Ezekiel 39:11).

Both accounts of the event show that the Gog/Magog armies will ultimately be completely defeated by miraculous fire from heaven (Ezekiel 38:22, Revelation 20:9). Also, whereas the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) will occur subsequent to the Gog/Magog event (Revelation 20:7-15), nothing requires (as is sometimes claimed) that the great white throne judgment has to happen immediately after that event. For there will be at least seven years (Ezekiel 39:9b) between the end of that event and the great white throne judgment.

Also, the Gog/Magog attack will not have to (as is sometimes claimed) involve only the nations listed in Ezekiel chapters 38-39. Those nations could be just a sampling. For the "nations" (ethnos), or peoples, who will be involved in the Gog/Magog attack will come from all over the earth (Revelation 20:8). They will still be physically part of Jesus' worldwide kingdom, still legally under his rule, just as they had been during the preceding millennium (Psalms 72:8-11, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 2). But after the millennium, they will be deceived by Satan into committing the attack (Revelation 20:7-10).

Also, while the Gog/Magog attack on Israel will not occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Israel could suffer a different attack before the millennium, at the start of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which attack could result in Israel's total defeat and occupation (Daniel 11:15-17).

Also, the city of Jerusalem could be attacked and totally defeated in the future at least three times before the millennium: once near the start of the future tribulation (Daniel 11:22), then again mid-tribulation (Daniel 11:31), and then at the tribulation's end (Daniel 11:45), right before Jesus' second coming and the start of the millennium (Zechariah 14:2-21).

BABerean2 · Feb 4, 2017

Bible2+ said:
Note that here, Paul cannot possibly mean that there are no believers who are Jews or Gentiles in any sense, because elsewhere he shows, for example, that believers remain either genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b). Similarly, Galatians 3:28 does not mean that there are no believers who are males or females, for clearly we are still males or females with regard to our genitals, and with regard to other matters (1 Timothy 2:11-12; 1 Corinthians 14:34-37; 1 Corinthians 11:4-16; 1 Peter 3:7a).

So Galatians 3:28 can only mean that there is no distinction between Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles, or between Christian males and Christian females, with regard to them being "one in Christ" (Galatians 3:28b), in the sense of them being one body in Christ (Ephesians 4:4-6), without distinction with regard to their salvation (Romans 10:12; 1 Corinthians 12:13; 1 Peter 3:7b).

The New Covenant has nothing to do with race.

Gal 6:15　 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.　
Gal 6:16　 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.　

We are Abraham's seed.

Gal 3:29　 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.　

We are Jews, who have the Holy Spirit inside of us.

Rom 2:28　 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;　
Rom 2:29　 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.　

Timothy said to pay no attention to genealogy. Why do we refuse to do as he said?

1Ti 1:4　 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.

Otherwise, we should be handing out DNA test kits at the Church-house door to determine a person's relationship to God.　

How much Abrahamic DNA is required to put one into this special relationship, based on race? (Matthew 3:9)
.

Bible2+ · Feb 5, 2017

BABerean2 said in post 65:

The New Covenant has nothing to do with race.

Note that it in no way contradicts the idea of race:

Romans 1:16 ¶For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The gospel of salvation goes to genetic Jews first (Romans 1:16b, Matthew 10:5-6, Matthew 15:24, Acts 3:26), and salvation is of the Jews (John 4:22b), because salvation is of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34). Gentile believers are grafted into Israel so that they can partake of the salvation offered to Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16). And all believers, no matter whether they are genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews, if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

BABerean2 said in post 65:

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.

Amen.

Whether or not someone is physically circumcised does not matter to Christians (Galatians 5:6), whether Jews or Gentiles. Instead, the only circumcision that matters is the spiritual circumcision (Philippians 3:3) of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Christ (Colossians 2:11-13).

If Christians get physically circumcised thinking that they have to (Acts 15:1,5) because it was commanded to Abraham (Genesis 17:10) and was part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Leviticus 12:3), then Christ will profit them nothing (Galatians 5:2). They have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4) and placed themselves under the curse of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 3:10, Deuteronomy 27:26).

Under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, physical circumcision was required for a male, whether Jew or Gentile, whether infant or adult, to become part of Israel (Exodus 12:48). But under the New Covenant, physical circumcision is not required for a Jew or Gentile to become part of Israel. All that is required is faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). This is one of the ways that the New Covenant is not according to the Old Covenant (Jeremiah 31:32). The letter of the entire Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished on the Cross (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6).

Also, unlike the abolished physical circumcision of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, the spiritual circumcision of the New Covenant of Jesus (Colossians 2:11-13, Philippians 3:3, Romans 2:29) makes no distinction between males and females (Galatians 3:28-29).

Also, under the New Covenant, a non-Christian, genetic Jew, even though he may be physically circumcised, is spiritually uncircumcised (Acts 7:51), and so spiritually is not a Jew (Romans 2:28-29, Revelation 2:9b, Revelation 3:9). He has been broken off in spirit from the good olive tree of Israel, the genetic Jews' own tree (Romans 11:20,24).

BABerean2 said in post 65:

Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

We seem to be agreed that this verse (in its entirety) refers to the church, which consists of both Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles (1 Corinthians 12:13). For in Galatians 6:16, the original Greek word (kai: G2532) translated as "and" in the phrase "and upon the Israel of God" can mean "even", like it is translated more than a hundred times in the New Testament, such as in 2 Corinthians 1:3 in the phrase "God, even [kai] the Father". So Galatians 6:16 means "even upon the Israel of God". That is, "as many as walk according to this rule" are "the Israel of God", in a spiritual sense.

BABerean2 · Feb 6, 2017

Bible2+ said:
if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

It is not about the water.
It is about the Holy Spirit.
In the passage below water is mentioned one time, in reference to the amniotic fluid in which babies are born.
The Spirit is found three times and is therefore the emphasis of the passage.

Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
Joh 3:2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
Joh 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

...................................

Mar_1:8 I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

Act_1:8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

Act_7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God,

Act_10:45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

1Co_6:19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

Circumcised of the Spirit.

Rom_2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Baptism in water is merely the ceremony, which declares you have been previously baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Why is this important?

It is the difference between Old Covenant believers and New Covenant believers who have been given the power to overcome sin through the work of the Holy Spirit, which indwells them.

A person cannot get into the New Covenant through water.
It comes through faith, and the indwelling of the Spirit.

Joh 5:24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
(The phrase above is the process of being spiritually born again, through faith in Christ.)

1Co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

Bible2+ · Feb 6, 2017

BABerean2 said in post 67:

1Co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

Here, Paul was not contradicting his own teaching of the necessity of baptism for ultimate salvation (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27). He simply meant that God did not want him to spend his apostolic time personally baptizing everyone who got saved through his preaching, when any other people in the church could do that for him. For any Christian can baptize new Christians. Also, Paul did not want to personally baptize a lot of people, so as to avoid as much as possible any false charge that he baptized in his own name (1 Corinthians 1:14-15). The Bible does not say how many people Paul baptized, but it does show that he made sure that people got baptized, whether by himself or someone else, right away after their coming into faith due to his preaching (Acts 16:15,33, Acts 18:8, Acts 19:5; 1 Corinthians 1:14-16).

BABerean2 said in post 67:

Act_10:45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

Acts 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues . . .

The Holy Spirit's gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-10), which operate in Christians who have received Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 19:6, Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46), will not cease operating until Jesus' second coming. For 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 means that just as only when children become adults do they put away childish things, so only when Christians become perfect when they see Jesus face to face at his second coming (1 John 3:2) will they no longer need Spiritual gifts such as prophecy, tongues, and the word of knowledge (1 Corinthians 12:8,10). During the future tribulation, which will just precede the second coming (Matthew 24:29-31), are some in the church going to reject the ministry of the two witnesses, simply because it will involve them prophesying and performing miracles (Revelation 11:3,6)?

Because Jesus' second coming, like the preceding tribulation, has not happened yet, all of the Spirit's gifts are still operating in the church today, within Pentecostal-type congregations, and within charismatic-type congregations, which can be of almost any denomination. God's Word commands Christians to operate in the Spiritual gifts when Christians come together (1 Corinthians 14:26-31). So congregations today should be careful not to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), such as by despising prophesyings (1 Thessalonians 5:20) or forbidding all speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:39). Tongues are one of the Spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-10) through which Christians can be regularly edified (1 Corinthians 14:4-5,12,26). Not all Holy Spirit-baptized Christians will speak in tongues (1 Corinthians 12:30), but almost all will (cf. Acts 19:6, Acts 10:45-46), for tongues are one of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Corinthians 12:28; 1 Corinthians 14:5).

Different Christians receive different kinds of tongues (1 Corinthians 12:10). Some tongues are languages which people can understand (Acts 2:4,8), while other tongues are languages which people cannot understand (1 Corinthians 14:2), not even the speakers (1 Corinthians 14:14). Unintelligible tongues could include ancient human languages which are unknown to history, ancient human languages which are known to history but are not understood, and angelic languages (1 Corinthians 13:1). Unintelligible tongues are not useless, however, for when they are prayed or sung privately to God without interpretation (1 Corinthians 14:2,28), they edify the spirits of those who speak or sing them (1 Corinthians 14:4,14-15, Jude 1:20) to bless God and thank God (1 Corinthians 14:16). And when unintelligible tongues are prayed or sung out loud in a congregation and then Spiritually interpreted (1 Corinthians 12:10b-11), their interpretation edifies the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:5b,12-13,26). When Christians sing in tongues to God, they are singing the "spiritual songs" which the Bible distinguishes from psalms and hymns (Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16).

The Bible sets no restrictions on how much Christians can pray and sing to God in tongues out loud at home or silently in church (1 Corinthians 14:28) (just as regular praying can be done silently: 1 Samuel 1:13,17). Indeed, Paul the apostle prayed and sung to God in tongues in private more than anyone (1 Corinthians 14:18-19). But regarding church meetings, the Bible sets strict rules on speaking tongues out loud: They are not to be spoken out loud in church meetings unless there is someone present who can Spiritually interpret them to the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:28). And even when a tongues-interpreter is present, at the most only three people should in turn speak out loud in unknown tongues, which should then be interpreted to the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:27). Everyone who has received the gift of tongues should be praying for the separate gift of the interpretation of tongues, so that he or she can edify others (1 Corinthians 14:12-13; 1 Corinthians 12:10b).

BABerean2 said in post 67:

Baptism in water is merely the ceremony, which declares you have been previously baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Note that water baptism can precede Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 8:15-17, Acts 19:5-6).

BABerean2 said in post 67:

Circumcised of the Spirit.

Indeed, through water-immersion (burial) baptism:

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

BABerean2 said in post 67:

A person cannot get into the New Covenant through water.
It comes through faith, and the indwelling of the Spirit.

Note that it is not either/or, but both/and. For:

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved . . .

1 Peter 3:21 ... baptism doth also now save us ...

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

And this baptism must be by immersion (burial in the water):

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Acts 2:38 ... be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins ...

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

BABerean2 · Feb 7, 2017

double

BABerean2 · Feb 7, 2017

extra

BABerean2 · Feb 7, 2017

Bible2+ said:
Here, Paul was not contradicting his own teaching of the necessity of baptism for ultimate salvation (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27). He simply meant that God did not want him to spend his apostolic time personally baptizing everyone who got saved through his preaching, when any other people in the church could do that for him. For any Christian can baptize new Christians. Also, Paul did not want to personally baptize a lot of people, so as to avoid as much as possible any false charge that he baptized in his own name (1 Corinthians 1:14-15). The Bible does not say how many people Paul baptized, but it does show that he made sure that people got baptized, whether by himself or someone else, right away after their coming into faith due to his preaching (Acts 16:15,33, Acts 18:8, Acts 19:5; 1 Corinthians 1:14-16).

Acts 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues . . .

The Holy Spirit's gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-10), which operate in Christians who have received Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 19:6, Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46), will not cease operating until Jesus' second coming. For 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 means that just as only when children become adults do they put away childish things, so only when Christians become perfect when they see Jesus face to face at his second coming (1 John 3:2) will they no longer need Spiritual gifts such as prophecy, tongues, and the word of knowledge (1 Corinthians 12:8,10). During the future tribulation, which will just precede the second coming (Matthew 24:29-31), are some in the church going to reject the ministry of the two witnesses, simply because it will involve them prophesying and performing miracles (Revelation 11:3,6)?

Because Jesus' second coming, like the preceding tribulation, has not happened yet, all of the Spirit's gifts are still operating in the church today, within Pentecostal-type congregations, and within charismatic-type congregations, which can be of almost any denomination. God's Word commands Christians to operate in the Spiritual gifts when Christians come together (1 Corinthians 14:26-31). So congregations today should be careful not to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), such as by despising prophesyings (1 Thessalonians 5:20) or forbidding all speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:39). Tongues are one of the Spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-10) through which Christians can be regularly edified (1 Corinthians 14:4-5,12,26). Not all Holy Spirit-baptized Christians will speak in tongues (1 Corinthians 12:30), but almost all will (cf. Acts 19:6, Acts 10:45-46), for tongues are one of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Corinthians 12:28; 1 Corinthians 14:5).

Different Christians receive different kinds of tongues (1 Corinthians 12:10). Some tongues are languages which people can understand (Acts 2:4,8), while other tongues are languages which people cannot understand (1 Corinthians 14:2), not even the speakers (1 Corinthians 14:14). Unintelligible tongues could include ancient human languages which are unknown to history, ancient human languages which are known to history but are not understood, and angelic languages (1 Corinthians 13:1). Unintelligible tongues are not useless, however, for when they are prayed or sung privately to God without interpretation (1 Corinthians 14:2,28), they edify the spirits of those who speak or sing them (1 Corinthians 14:4,14-15, Jude 1:20) to bless God and thank God (1 Corinthians 14:16). And when unintelligible tongues are prayed or sung out loud in a congregation and then Spiritually interpreted (1 Corinthians 12:10b-11), their interpretation edifies the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:5b,12-13,26). When Christians sing in tongues to God, they are singing the "spiritual songs" which the Bible distinguishes from psalms and hymns (Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16).

The Bible sets no restrictions on how much Christians can pray and sing to God in tongues out loud at home or silently in church (1 Corinthians 14:28) (just as regular praying can be done silently: 1 Samuel 1:13,17). Indeed, Paul the apostle prayed and sung to God in tongues in private more than anyone (1 Corinthians 14:18-19). But regarding church meetings, the Bible sets strict rules on speaking tongues out loud: They are not to be spoken out loud in church meetings unless there is someone present who can Spiritually interpret them to the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:28). And even when a tongues-interpreter is present, at the most only three people should in turn speak out loud in unknown tongues, which should then be interpreted to the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:27). Everyone who has received the gift of tongues should be praying for the separate gift of the interpretation of tongues, so that he or she can edify others (1 Corinthians 14:12-13; 1 Corinthians 12:10b).

Note that water baptism can precede Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 8:15-17, Acts 19:5-6).

Indeed, through water-immersion (burial) baptism:

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Note that it is not either/or, but both/and. For:

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved . . .

1 Peter 3:21 ... baptism doth also now save us ...

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

And this baptism must be by immersion (burial in the water):

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Acts 2:38 ... be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins ...

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Based on what you are saying, the man who accepts Christ as Savior and is indwelled with the Holy Spirit, but is killed in an automobile accident before he can be water baptized the next week is not going to heaven.

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klutedavid · Feb 8, 2017

BABerean2 said:
Based on what you are saying, the man who accepts Christ as Savior and is indwelled with the Holy Spirit, but is killed in an automobile accident before he can be water baptized the next week is not going to heaven.

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Hello Berean.

Good quality posts on both sides of this debate.

Also, the thief on the cross was not baptized in water, yet he would be in paradise with Christ.

Bible2+ · Feb 8, 2017

BABerean2 said in post #71:

Based on what you are saying, the man who accepts Christ as Savior and is indwelled with the Holy Spirit, but is killed in an automobile accident before he can be water baptized the next week is not going to heaven.

Note that no one in the Bible who became a Christian waited until next week to get baptized. It was that important.

Consider the Philippian jailer who became a believer:

Acts 16:33 And he... was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

And consider the Ethiopian eunuch whom Philip preached to:

Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

And consider others whom Paul preached to:

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

--

Also, regarding being killed in a car accident before you can get baptized, note that God could see to it that you don't get killed, just as he can see to it that you don't get killed before you have had a chance to repent from a sin. For if you die suddenly in unrepentant sin, you won't go to heaven.

For the ability of Christians (although not their choosing) to repent from and to confess to God every sin that they commit is assured. For if they do commit a sin, even if they are unaware of it, Jesus will send them warning and chastening to make sure that they know that they have sinned and need to repent (Revelation 3:19, Hebrews 12:6-7, cf. Jeremiah 31:18-19). And he will give them time to repent (Revelation 2:21a). It is only if they wrongly employ their free will to waste the time that they are given, and ignore the warning and chastening, and refuse to repent (Revelation 2:21-23, cf. Deuteronomy 21:18-21) until death (1 John 5:16b) or Jesus' second coming (Luke 12:45-46), that they will ultimately lose their salvation due to unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Galatians 5:19-21).

If saved people become unsure whether or not they have ignored Jesus' warning, and refused to repent from a sin, they need to pray and ask him to reveal to them if there is any unrepentant sin in their heart (Psalms 139:23-24). And they need to be reading the Bible, every word of it (Matthew 4:4; 2 Timothy 3:16), over and over again. For it will expose to them any unrepentant sin which still exists within their heart (Hebrews 4:12; 2 Timothy 3:16), so that they can repent from it and confess it to God, and be forgiven and perfect before God (2 Timothy 3:17; 1 John 1:9; 2 Corinthians 7:1).

--

Also, it is sometimes asked if the thief on the cross getting saved means that baptism is not necessary. The answer is No, for the thief on the cross could have been baptized before Luke 23:42-43 happened, but then backslid and committed theft. Also, baptism is only a New Testament/New Covenant requirement for ultimate salvation (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Romans 6:3-11, Galatians 3:27, Colossians 2:12). And the New Covenant was not put into legal effect until Jesus died (Hebrews 9:16-17, Matthew 26:28). But Luke 23:42-43 happened before Jesus died, so baptism was not yet a requirement for ultimate salvation. But now that Jesus' death is past, believers have to obey all of his New Covenant commandments (John 14:21-24) if they want to obtain ultimate salvation (Hebrews 5:9, Romans 2:6-8), including his commandment that every believer get baptized (Matthew 28:19-20, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38), and by immersion/"burial" in the water of baptism (Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12; cf. 1 Corinthians 14:37). Also, a saved person can ultimately lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), which includes unrepentant sins of omission (James 4:17), which would include refusing without repentance to get baptized, and by immersion.

BABerean2 · Feb 8, 2017

Bible2+ said:
Also, it is sometimes asked if the thief on the cross getting saved means that baptism is not necessary. The answer is No, for the thief on the cross could have been baptized before Luke 23:42-43 happened, but then backslid and committed theft. Also, baptism is only a New Testament/New Covenant requirement for ultimate salvation (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Romans 6:3-11, Galatians 3:27, Colossians 2:12). And the New Covenant was not put into legal effect until Jesus died (Hebrews 9:16-17, Matthew 26:28). But Luke 23:42-43 happened before Jesus died, so baptism was not yet a requirement for ultimate salvation. But now that Jesus' death is past, believers have to obey all of his New Covenant commandments (John 14:21-24) if they want to obtain ultimate salvation (Hebrews 5:9, Romans 2:6-8), including his commandment that every believer get baptized (Matthew 28:19-20, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38), and by immersion/"burial" in the water of baptism (Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12; cf. 1 Corinthians 14:37). Also, a saved person can ultimately lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), which includes unrepentant sins of omission (James 4:17), which would include refusing without repentance to get baptized, and by immersion.

Is your focus on the water, instead of the Spirit?
Which one is the focus of John chapter 3?

Is your focus is on the ceremony, instead of faith in Christ?

Are you ignoring John 5:24?

Have you already passed from death to life, through faith in Christ or are you busy trying to make sure you have not forgotten to repent for a sin?
Is it a done deal, or is it not?

Are you now indwelled with the teacher sent down from God? John 14:26

Do you think that an atheist baptized in water is going to heaven?

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Bible2+ · Feb 8, 2017

BABerean2 said in post #74:

Is it a done deal, or is it not?

Do you mean in the sense of once-saved-always-saved?

If so, note that the Bible does not teach OSAS, but shows that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 3:12, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, even if they do continue in the faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also patiently continue to the end in obedience and good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, even if they do continue in faith and good works of faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to the end to repent from every sin that they commit (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to commit unrepentant sin, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Luke 12:45-46; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus' death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (cf. Acts 22:16a).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they partake of the divine flesh and blood of the bread and wine of communion (John 6:53, Matthew 26:26-28; 1 Corinthians 10:16; 1 Corinthians 11:27-30). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (cf. John 6:60,66).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they forgive everyone for every wrong (Matthew 6:14-15). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 18:21-35).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do all that they can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to and peace with everyone whom they have ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26, cf. Acts 24:16). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they help Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (3 John 1:10b).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they provide for their families (1 Timothy 5:8). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do not commit the unforgivable sin, which is blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29). An example of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is saying that an act performed by the power of the Holy Spirit (e.g. Matthew 12:28) was performed by Satan (Mark 3:22-30). There is no assurance that initially saved people will never choose to say that (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:39b; 1 Thessalonians 5:19).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do not remove words from the book of Revelation and then publish the altered text as if it were the original, without repentance (Revelation 22:19). And there is no assurance that they will never choose to do that (cf. 2 Corinthians 4:2).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do not worship the future Antichrist and his image, and do not willingly receive his mark on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 14:9-12, Revelation 13:16-18). And there is no assurance that they will not choose to do those things (1 Timothy 4:1).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:20-22). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Luke 12:45-46).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:26). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Revelation 21:7-8).

All this is said not to engender any unhealthy fear in believers, but the healthy fear which all believers are supposed to have (e.g. Romans 11:20-22).

And all this is said not to engender any despair in believers, but the healthy, close-clinging to the person of Jesus himself, which all believers must continue in (John 15:4-6). For while God makes it possible for initially saved people to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13) toward their ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 2:12b, Matthew 7:21), this is possible only so long as they continue to abide in Jesus. For on their own, apart from Jesus, they cannot do anything good (John 15:4-5).

Also, Jesus is not a hard taskmaster. He will never give believers more work to do for him than they can easily bear (Matthew 11:28-30). So if believers ever get stressed out that Jesus is asking them to do too much, then it is not Jesus asking them to do whatever is stressing them out (Luke 10:40-42). They need to take a step back and ask Jesus what particular spiritual work he is actually asking them as individuals to do (Mark 13:34, Romans 12:6-8).

BABerean2 · Feb 9, 2017

Bible2+ said:
Do you mean in the sense of once-saved-always-saved?

If so, note that the Bible does not teach OSAS, but shows that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 3:12, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, even if they do continue in the faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also patiently continue to the end in obedience and good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, even if they do continue in faith and good works of faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to the end to repent from every sin that they commit (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to commit unrepentant sin, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Luke 12:45-46; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus' death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (cf. Acts 22:16a).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they partake of the divine flesh and blood of the bread and wine of communion (John 6:53, Matthew 26:26-28; 1 Corinthians 10:16; 1 Corinthians 11:27-30). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (cf. John 6:60,66).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they forgive everyone for every wrong (Matthew 6:14-15). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 18:21-35).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do all that they can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to and peace with everyone whom they have ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26, cf. Acts 24:16). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they help Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (3 John 1:10b).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they provide for their families (1 Timothy 5:8). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do not commit the unforgivable sin, which is blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29). An example of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is saying that an act performed by the power of the Holy Spirit (e.g. Matthew 12:28) was performed by Satan (Mark 3:22-30). There is no assurance that initially saved people will never choose to say that (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:39b; 1 Thessalonians 5:19).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do not remove words from the book of Revelation and then publish the altered text as if it were the original, without repentance (Revelation 22:19). And there is no assurance that they will never choose to do that (cf. 2 Corinthians 4:2).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do not worship the future Antichrist and his image, and do not willingly receive his mark on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 14:9-12, Revelation 13:16-18). And there is no assurance that they will not choose to do those things (1 Timothy 4:1).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:20-22). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Luke 12:45-46).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:26). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Revelation 21:7-8).

All this is said not to engender any unhealthy fear in believers, but the healthy fear which all believers are supposed to have (e.g. Romans 11:20-22).

And all this is said not to engender any despair in believers, but the healthy, close-clinging to the person of Jesus himself, which all believers must continue in (John 15:4-6). For while God makes it possible for initially saved people to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13) toward their ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 2:12b, Matthew 7:21), this is possible only so long as they continue to abide in Jesus. For on their own, apart from Jesus, they cannot do anything good (John 15:4-5).

Also, Jesus is not a hard taskmaster. He will never give believers more work to do for him than they can easily bear (Matthew 11:28-30). So if believers ever get stressed out that Jesus is asking them to do too much, then it is not Jesus asking them to do whatever is stressing them out (Luke 10:40-42). They need to take a step back and ask Jesus what particular spiritual work he is actually asking them as individuals to do (Mark 13:34, Romans 12:6-8).

Do you believe John 5:24, or do you not?

Have you already been passed from death to life, through faith in Christ? Yes or No?

Do you believe John 14:26, or do you not?

Have you already been indwelled with the teacher sent down from God? Yes or No?

All of the scripture you quoted in the last post shows that you are promoting a form of "works- based Salvation", instead of Grace.

We are under the Law of Christ, after we accept the free gift of Grace. We are not lawless, as found in 1 John chapter 3. However, you will never be able to work your way to heaven. Nobody is that good.

1Jn 3:22　 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.　

1Jn 3:23　 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.　

1Jn 3:24　 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

We cannot gain our salvation through what we do.
Our works come about because of what He has already done for us.

The Spirit of God within you, gives you the power to do what is right.

　

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Bible2+ · Feb 10, 2017

BABerean2 said in post #76:

Do you believe John 5:24, or do you not?

John 5:24 refers to salvation in the sense of believers' present, spiritual salvation, instead of the still-future redemption of their physical bodies (Romans 8:23-25). John 5:24 means that a saved person will not ultimately come into condemnation, as in an ultimate loss of salvation, so long as he continues to the end to believe (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23, John 15:6), to perform good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, John 15:2a), and to repent from every sin that he commits (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27). All saved people will be judged (2 Corinthians 5:10).

And some saved people, at the judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at his second coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they do not continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

BABerean2 said in post #76:

Have you already been passed from death to life, through faith in Christ?

Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they are actually alive, so initially saved people can know that they are actually saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). And just as an infant cannot "give back" his being born, or become unborn, so a born-again person cannot become un-born-again, or "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there is no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there is no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. For just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic, and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they are to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (e.g. Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

BABerean2 said in post #76:

Do you believe John 14:26, or do you not?

Note that the Holy Spirit does not take away Christians' free will. So if they wrongly employ their free will to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19) and do something like committing apostasy, or engaging in some sin without repentance, or becoming utterly lazy without repentance, then they will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 25:26,30; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

BABerean2 said in post #76:

All of the scripture you quoted in the last post shows that you are promoting a form of "works- based Salvation", instead of Grace.

Note that while initial salvation is by grace without works (Ephesians 2:8-9), ultimate salvation does require works (Romans 2:6-8).

BABerean2 said in post #76:

Our works come about because of what He has already done for us.

The Spirit of God within you, gives you the power to do what is right.

Note that while God indeed makes it possible for saved people to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13, John 15:4-5), he does not take away their free will, turning them into robots, or into macabre flesh puppets, mere marionettes whom he forces to dance across the stage as he pulls on their strings. Instead, he leaves them as his real children with free will. And so they have to choose each and every day to deny themselves, to take up their crosses, and to follow Jesus, to the end (Luke 9:23, Matthew 24:13). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46, Luke 8:13).

Initial salvation by grace through faith without works does not automatically produce good works. That is why saved people must be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8), and why it is possible for saved people to wrongly employ their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

2 Corinthians 5:9, 1 Corinthians 3:9, Colossians 1:29, Philippians 2:12b, Titus 3:8, and Romans 2:6-8 show that Christians themselves must actually labor, along with God. Ultimate salvation is synergistic because Christians can end up losing their salvation if they wrongly employ their free will to stop their laboring, i.e. to become utterly lazy, without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Revealing Times · Feb 10, 2017

Bible2+ said:
Note that while initial salvation is by grace without works (Ephesians 2:8-9), ultimate salvation does require works (Romans 2:6-8).

Everything above this is excellent, bravo......Here we have truth also, yet I think I would prefer to say, because of our Faith, our works will show, else we must not have Faith. I know, its semantics, but if we aren't careful, some we quote us as saying that we believe in works over faith.

Trust me, you will be teaching the same thing over and over here.

A per the once saved always saved. I liken it to a football game. The baptists are technically right, but really wrong.

Say Bama was leading Tennessee by 30-3 at halftime, most would say they are "WINNING" but if Tennessee comes back and wins 31-30, Bama was "NEVER WINNING" they were always "LOSING", now they were ahead, BUT LOSING. The same is with the SAVED per the Baptists belief, its true, if one winds up in Hell he was NEVER SAVED, but that doesn't mean you can't have Salvation and lose it. But we aren't "SAVED" until we make Heaven, because of course we can turn back to our former ways, and Jesus said then 7 times the Demons will come in.

BABerean2 · Feb 10, 2017

Bible2+ said:
Ultimate salvation is synergistic

Bible2+ · Feb 10, 2017

Revealing Times said in post #78:

I think I would prefer to say, because of our Faith, our works will show, else we must not have Faith.

God grants initial salvation by faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9), just as infants are born apart from their works. But just as an infant after it is born needs to begin to breath, and then to continue to breathe, if it is to remain alive, so a new believer after he is born again needs to begin to perform works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), and to continue to perform them (Titus 3:8), if his faith is to remain alive (James 2:26).

For faith is like a body, and works of faith are like the breathing (spirit) of that body (James 2:26). Faith without works of faith will die, just as a body without breathing will die (James 2:26). That is why our ultimate salvation will depend on both our faith and our continued works of faith (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21). If a believer refuses to continue to perform works of faith, without repentance, he will ultimately lose his salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a), just as if someone stops himself from breathing by hanging himself, he will die.

The breathing analogy (James 2:26) does not include the automatic aspect of breathing. For believers must be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8). The analogies in the Bible do not include every aspect of the analogous thing. For example, believers, born-again people, being like newborn babies (1 Peter 2:2) does not mean that believers have no ability to talk, walk, or control their bowels.

Revealing Times said in post #78:

The same is with the SAVED per the Baptists belief, its true, if one winds up in Hell he was NEVER SAVED . . .

That brings to mind Calvinism's mistaken doctrine of once-saved-always-saved through assured perseverance. This doctrine unwittingly ends up logically requiring that saved people are robots. For if saved people cannot choose to do evil to the point where they can ultimately lose their salvation, then they no longer have free will. Also, the mistaken doctrine of assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring that a Christian can have no present assurance that he is truly saved. For if a Christian who does not persevere to the end was never truly saved, then no Christian can presently have the assurance that he is truly saved. For no Christian can know if he will persevere to the end. Down the road, he could fail to persevere, and so end up showing that he was all along only a fake Christian, a self-deceived hypocrite.

But under true, Biblical doctrine, every believer in the gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31) can know that he is presently saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), if after he became a believer in the gospel he repented from his sins (1 John 3:6) and confessed them to God (1 John 1:9). And he can be sure that as a saved person, he can never be separated from the love of God, so long as he loves God (Romans 8:28-39), which means to obey him (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24). And no matter how many tests a saved person fails during his lifetime, sometime subsequent to his initial repentance, even if he fails and commits sin seventy times seven times in a single day (Matthew 18:21-22, Luke 17:4), he can be sure that so long as he sincerely repents from every act of sin and confesses it to God, he will be completely forgiven (1 John 1:9). He will lose his salvation ultimately only if he wrongly employs his free will to do something like committing a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

Revealing Times said in post #78:

But we aren't "SAVED" until we make Heaven . . .

We are initially saved now, but not yet ultimately saved.

That is, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation which Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5) in their mortal bodies, while ultimate salvation is that salvation which is ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5), and is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus will bring to obedient Christians at his second coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when he will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies just like the immortal physical body which Jesus obtained at his resurrection on the third day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).

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