Jehovahs Witnesses on the Resurrection of Christ: "Jesus rose as a spirit body not a physical body"

Who? Not What The Holy Spirit Is:


Scripture declares that the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3 & 4).

Scripture also teaches us the Holy Spirit is a divine person, a being with a mind, emotions, and a will.

1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, & the Holy Spirit: & these three are one."

He The Holy Spirit is clearly shown as God in many Scriptures, including (Acts 5:3-4). In this verse Peter confronts Ananias as to why he lied to the Holy Spirit and tells him that he had """not lied to men but to God"""

A clear declaration that lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God.

He The Holt Spirit's omnipresence is seen in (Ps 139:7-8) """Where can I go from your Spirit"""? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there

Here again we see the characteristic of an omniscience Holy Spirit:
1 Cor 2:
10 """God has revealed it to us by his Spirit""". """The Spirit searches all things""" """even the deep things of God"""

11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man’s spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.”
(HE THE HOLY SPIRIT """KNOWS THE THOUGHTS""" """OF GOD""". WHO BUT GOD COULD KNOW THE THOUGHTS OF GOD?)

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
(HE THE HOLY SPIRIT """SAID"""; SEPARATE FOR ME BARNABAS & PAUL FOR A WORK """I""" "HAVE CALLED THEM FOR"!)

He The Holy Spirit speaks again in (Acts 28:25

He The Holy Spirit can be blasphemed against (Matthew 12:31 &32

He The Holy Spirit is lied to """and called God""". (Acts 5:3-4

He The Holy Spirit teaches in (John 14:26

He The Holy Spirit possesses a mind, emotions, a will, thinks and knows (1 Cor 2:10

He The Holy Spirit can be, by us, grieved (Eph 4:30

He The Holy Spirit keeps/guards us (2 Tim 1:14

He The Holy Spirit helps & intercedes for us (Rom 8:26-27

He The Holy Spirit makes decisions according to His will (1 Cor 12:7-11

He The Holy Spirit Comforts & Counsels (Jn 14:16, 26, 15:26

He The Holy Spirit seals & "gives us the earnest"
("Earnest" means down payment. (11 Cor 5:5

He The Holy Spirit seals & "gives us the earnest" (11 Cor 1:22
("Earnest" means down payment

He The Holy Spirit seals us (Eph 1:13
(WHATS THE "GOSPEL OF YOUR SALVATION"? PLACING YOUR FAITH IN THE SIN ATONING DEATH, BURIAL & RESURRECTION OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST

He The Holy Spirit "guarantees" our salvation (Eph 1:14
(YOUR SALVATION WAS SEALED & IS GUARANTEED BY GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT. AT THE MOMENT YOU PLACED YOUR FAITH/BELIEF/TRUST IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST)

The Father sent the Son, the Son sends the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit points back to the Son & the Son glorifies the Father. Maranatha

Hillsage said:

In taking another look at your verse;
1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man is of the earth/adamah, earthy/choikos; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

I don't have to have all five earth elements in my definition since I see Adam being made of only of the earthy/choikos parts of adamah. Choikos is a derivative of the Gr. root choos which is defined as "dust" or "dug out from the earth".


Along those 'lines', I do maintain that original Adam/mankind was androgenous and capable of reproduction within himself. But upon separation of the female "side" Adam/mankind became two instead of just one. I do mak a distinction generally though concerning male/female and masculine/feminine. And your use above doesn't quite fit like a glove for me and my application. Oh well, what the heck do we really know anyway.


I differ in my POV. The definition of "soul/nephesh" is a 'breathing creature' or 'living creature', which is obviously alive. But the addition of CHAY/living prior to a 'breathing creature/nephesh simply means that from his 'first breath' of air Adam was led of the spirit and not the flesh. That chay life is what came from eating of the tree of life/chay. But upon Adam's first temptation of the flesh "be like God", his soul (Mind will emotion) was 'motivated to reach out and take' crushing the leading of his spirit. A spirit which not only avails the energia of God but the character of God. The withdrawal of access to the 'source of chay'/'the tree of chay simply forces the soul of man to go from a 'living breathing creature' to a death sentenced 'dying breathing creature'.


This is a position I too maintain. I believe that the spirit is the 'animating life force' of a triune man, and the soul is the 'motivating life force'. The spirit provides the energia of God to contract the muscles of respiration and draw breath and the soul (functioning brain) provides the 'I will, I won't' of the triune man.


In my POV the 'breath of God' is spirit...not oxygen.


I think the 'soul' is in the context of the first 6 verses stressing the 'choices' a soul make this side of glory, with particular mention in vs 1,5. But even if that is not true application the missing soul isn't the point of the passage IMO.

I think your very use of the word 'pseudo-spiritual activity' draws attention more to the 'function' of spirit than it does to the 'form' of spirit. The spirit of Christ in me is of the same 'form' as that of Satan and his minions. But the 'function' of the evil spirit leads to death (demonic character) and the 'function' of the 'Christ spirit' in me leads to life (God's character).

OK Ken, we've both thrown out our 'take'. I'm really not seeking a big debate, because none of it really matters IMO. Hope you agree. Nite bro.

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I mostly agree. But choikos is there to contrast with heaven in the next half verse, not for definition.

Androgenous, absolutely. Did you ever read Archimedes math text on why God puts two means in-between two extremes? The division of the mediator into two is part of the math of the golden section. His argument seems to apply to why Adam was divided.

The problem is that the text uses nesahma, and not ruach when God blows into Adam's nostrils.

By "pseudo-spritual activity", I am referring to what some of us used to call "soul-power".

Ken Behrens said:

I mostly agree. But choikos is there to contrast with heaven in the next half verse, not for definition.

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But for me, the next verse simply confirms that one who is 'earthy/fleshly led' dies like the first Adam. Whereas one who is spirit led, overcomes temporal death like second Adam/Jesus did. Jesus just did it perfectly, and we're mostly shy of "Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own,.." therefore making us dependent 100% upon His imputed righteousness.

GAL 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

I might add, I do disagree with the capitalization of spirit in the above verses.

Androgenous, absolutely. Did you ever read Archimedes math text on why God puts two means in-between two extremes? The division of the mediator into two is part of the math of the golden section. His argument seems to apply to why Adam was divided.

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No I haven't, sounds too 'heady' for this ole dog. So I may be missing out.
Oh well, I'm certainly no stranger to confusion.

The problem is that the text uses nesahma, and not ruach when God blows into Adam's nostrils.

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But if neshamah is defined as the 'a puff' of 'divine inspiration, intellect' of God, which comes from the 'substance' of the action which would be and indwelling spirit/ruwach.

By "pseudo-spritual activity", I am referring to what some of us used to call "soul-power".

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You mean like the black dudes in the 70's? I may not agree Ken, but you do a good job of making me think. Like I say 'ole dog-itis' is pretty strong here.

Hillsage said:

But if neshamah is defined as the 'a puff' of 'divine inspiration, intellect' of God, which comes from the 'substance' of the action which would be and indwelling spirit/ruwach.

You mean like the black dudes in the 70's? I may not agree Ken, but you do a good job of making me think. Like I say 'ole dog-itis' is pretty strong here.

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Neshama if...IF, I repeat IF

No, I mean like the charismatics of the 1970's describing the essential difference between what God does and what the human mind does.

You make me think too.

Ken Behrens said:

I Cor. 15:44 settles it as far as I can tell.

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Yes pretty clear indeed.

DrBubbaLove said:

What about me makes me me and not someone else?
IOW if science could dupe/clone my body (maybe a little taller), what about this new me makes that not me?
My answer would be the soul. Yours is still unclear to me at this point.

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The Orthodox answer would be both your body and mind/soul/noetic faculty.

You are consubstantially united to the rest of humanity according to your human nature, but all individual aspects of your person are uniquely you and will be resurrected. The flesh perishes, but will be raised and glorified.

This believe in the holiness of the body is what separates us from Gnostics and Docetics.

JWs are a non-Christian sect that blends three ancient heresies: Arianism, Docetism (well, insofar as it contains a denial of the physical resurrection; full-on Docetism would go on to deny a human nature of Christ altogether) and Chiliasm.

Ken Behrens said:

I Cor. 15:44 settles it as far as I can tell.

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If we keep reading 1 Corinthians 15, the matter is more apparent.

1 Corinthians 15: KJV

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Ken Behrens said:

Adam would have resurrected after earthly death into his spiritual body. If he ate the tree, he would live forever in this body. That is what the text is saying. Recall, even at the time of Paul's ministry, many Jews did not yet believe in the resurrection. Most of the ancients who believed in eternal life, believed for it in this world. The resurrection came into Israelite society only about 500BC, like in Ezekiel's prophecies. That is the original source of the idea. The Holy Spirit included it in the Bible for its value as symbolic of Christ.

Animals have mind and memory, but they do not have free will. We can take pictures of mind and memory as they operate, but cannot take pictures of free will.

The person is purely what God made him to be, subject to his choices to serve God. Let's see if anyone can find any Scripture that says we will remember facts about the past in the resurrection. I cannot.

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Agree to disagree.

But again my point is still it seems odd to suggest God would create a being as something less than He wanted them to be (flesh and spirit united) in order to have that being become something better after death of the body. Either mankind was "very Good" as He said it all was after He made man or it was not and so man could be better.

Further you appear to have some affection for the notion that part of the fall was to trap what is seemingly and essentially nothing different than an angel into a human body. Only to have the spirit freed again at the death of that body. Given dubious need for having a tree needed to eat to live eternally in a Garden said to be made for spirit, that obviously cannot eat a plant, seems an odd way to view things. As would the idea that the spirit being freed from the body at its death needing to eat of the same plant after being freed since free of the body the spirit would not be in "need" of a physical sustenance anymore.

For these reason and certainly more, I prefer to accept the idea that it is Jesus, God, who made us to live eternally happy with Him and made all of us a body united with a soul in our mother's womb. So it is Jesus alone, (not God and a plant), that can resurrect us with a new very physical, flesh and bone body that will be able to live eternally happy with Him. Unchanging Purpose and Will. So it is possible some of us can live just as He intended and for His Purpose. Which is evident in His having created mankind, a living body and soul, to live and share in His Happiness eternally from the Beginning.

yogosans14 said:

Instead, it says that He rose as a spirit creature and that the material body of Jesus was taken away by God the Father.

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OK. That's a good guess on their part.

yogosans14 said:

The Watchtower organization says that Jesus did not rise from the dead in the same body he died in (You Can Live Forever on Paradise Earth, pp. 143-44). Instead, it says that He rose as a spirit creature and that the material body of Jesus was taken away by God the Father.

The official website of Jehovahs Witnesses on Christ Resurrection:

The Bible says that Jesus “was put to death in the flesh but made alive [resurrected] in the spirit.”—1 Peter 3:18; Acts 13:34; 1 Corinthians 15:45; 2 Corinthians 5:16.

Jesus’ own words showed that he would not be resurrected with his flesh-and-blood body. He said that he would give his “flesh in behalf of the life of the world,” as a ransom for mankind. (John 6:51; Matthew 20:28) If he had taken back his flesh when he was resurrected, he would have canceled that ransom sacrifice. This could not have happened, though, for the Bible says that he sacrificed his flesh and blood “once for all time.”—Hebrews 9:11, 12.

If Jesus was raised up with a spirit body, how could his disciples see him?

• Spirit creatures can take on human form. For example, angels who did this in the past even ate and drank with humans. (Genesis 18:1-8; 19:1-3) However, they still were spirit creatures and could leave the physical realm.—Judges 13:15-21.
  
  
• After his resurrection, Jesus also assumed human form temporarily, just as angels had previously done. As a spirit creature, though, he was able to appear and disappear suddenly. (Luke 24:31; John 20:19, 26) The fleshly bodies that he materialized were not identical from one appearance to the next. Thus, even Jesus’ close friends recognized him only by what he said or did.—Luke 24:30, 31, 35; John 20:14-16; 21:6, 7.
  
  
• When Jesus appeared to the apostle Thomas, he took on a body with wound marks. He did this to bolster Thomas’ faith, since Thomas doubted that Jesus had been raised up.—John 20:24-29.

• 
  Your thoughts?

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The JWs are regarded as a cult, rather than a Christian denomination. They have their own Bible - which I think is essentially the same as ours but with a few important words changed; they don't believe in the Trinity, nor that Jesus was God. This, alone, leads me to regard the things they say as being suspect.

My favourite JW story is that many years ago, two JWs came to my house. I was the only one in, so I opened the door. During our conversation, (I was in one of my "let's try and convert 'em" moods) one of them said something like, " 'as Paul says in Acts chapter 20 ..... oh, I can't find it',". To which I replied, "actually, it was Peter in Acts chapter 10".
They left quite soon after that, and it was a long time before I saw them again.

DrBubbaLove said:

Agree to disagree.

But again my point is still it seems odd to suggest God would create a being as something less than He wanted them to be (flesh and spirit united) in order to have that being become something better after death of the body. Either mankind was "very Good" as He said it all was after He made man or it was not and so man could be better.

Further you appear to have some affection for the notion that part of the fall was to trap what is seemingly and essentially nothing different than an angel into a human body. Only to have the spirit freed again at the death of that body.

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Very good for this earth. He would be made better for the new earth of Revelation. The "trap" (I prefer to call it uniting") was to help earth as much as to help mankind.

Ken Behrens said:

Neshama if...IF, I repeat IF

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Repeat as many times as you wish....but I am sufficiently 'lost' with one "IF" So, music man, you may need to add a little melody to the lyric for me. Since a lyric without a melody, just doesn't make a song I can sing.

No, I mean like the charismatics of the 1970's describing the essential difference between what God does and what the human mind does.

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I was around then, but I'm just thinking of things like a spiritual 'word of knowledge' 'word of wisdom' from God, becoming Educational degrees for carnal minded religious men. I'm also thinking of things like 'the spiritual abilities' of Adam becoming 'soulish talents' following the fall.

Along those lines I share a quote from the book of Jasher: "Enosh lived ninety years and he begat Cainan; and Cainan grew up and he was forty years old, and he became wise and had knowledge and skill in all wisdom (human, earthly), and he reigned over all the sons of men, and he led the sons of men to wisdom, and knowledge; for Cainan was a very wise man and had understanding in all wisdom, and with his wisdom he ruled over spirits and demons: (Jasher 2:10-11)

This is the kind of teaching which also says Exorcism is not the spiritual gift of 'casting out, by the finger of God'. Instead it is a soulish model of crowding or starving the demon to volitionally 'leave' (similar to Sceva's sons and their Jewish exorcisms prior to adding the name of Jesus to their ritual rites). But when they met a demonic authority bigger than usual....well, you know the rest of the story.

You make me think too.

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Maybe we 'fish Friday' boys just 'mackeral snapperd' too many different kinds of fish after leaving 'The' church....to grow up.

Ken Behrens said:

Very good for this earth. He would be made better for the new earth of Revelation. The "trap" (I prefer to call it uniting") was to help earth as much as to help mankind.

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So the teaching is proclaiming God making something Very Good, is to be understood as that He could have done better with mankind. Further actually I think, our bodies might be looked as part of the punishment for sin. And to the degree one looks at our bodies that way, maybe even evil, including the idea of gender being evil.

Are there other things God is said to do imperfectly?
And what in this teaching allows for a spirit to have a physical need to eat a plant?

Hillsage said:

Repeat as many times as you wish....but I am sufficiently 'lost' with one "IF" So, music man, you may need to add a little melody to the lyric for me. Since a lyric without a melody, just doesn't make a song I can sing.

I was around then, but I'm just thinking of things like a spiritual 'word of knowledge' 'word of wisdom' from God, becoming Educational degrees for carnal minded religious men. I'm also thinking of things like 'the spiritual abilities' of Adam becoming 'soulish talents' following the fall.

Along those lines I share a quote from the book of Jasher: "Enosh lived ninety years and he begat Cainan; and Cainan grew up and he was forty years old, and he became wise and had knowledge and skill in all wisdom (human, earthly), and he reigned over all the sons of men, and he led the sons of men to wisdom, and knowledge; for Cainan was a very wise man and had understanding in all wisdom, and with his wisdom he ruled over spirits and demons: (Jasher 2:10-11)

This is the kind of teaching which also says Exorcism is not the spiritual gift of 'casting out, by the finger of God'. Instead it is a soulish model of crowding or starving the demon to volitionally 'leave' (similar to Sceva's sons and their Jewish exorcisms prior to adding the name of Jesus to their ritual rites). But when they met a demonic authority bigger than usual....well, you know the rest of the story.

Maybe we 'fish Friday' boys just 'mackeral snapperd' too many different kinds of fish after leaving 'The' church....to grow up.

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I say IF because I think it is a reach to equate the word neshama with the spirit. Pro: Jesus says the spirit is like the wind, and the Spirit at Pentecost showed up in a wind. Con: Why use the different Hebrew word, if they are the same, and why do the Hebrews say that ruach and chai (life is considered part of person also, as are spirit, soul and body) are different things if they can be equated.

The book of Jasher we have was written 1522 AD. So I would prefer the Book of Jubilees 8:3-5) as Jubilees was considered by many Jews to be part of the Bible.

The theory of soul power is that we can mimic to some extent the miracles of God using our souls, without the spirit being involved. In the 1970's this explanation was invoked to account for the success of witchcraft spells, and today is used to explain healing by Reiki. The assumption is, that when God uses us to work a miracle, His Spirit guides our souls, and the soul exercises abilities according to His spirit, like a worship musician lets God guide his fingers (in His body) when playing under the anointing. If that is the assumption made, then spirit and soul are necessarily different, since the same results can sometimes be achieved simply by the person himself willing it. In my experience, the model seems to be a good one for what I have seen.

I still eat fish all the time. I like it now more than meat. If I were still Catholic, I woudl be too old to have to fast.

DrBubbaLove said:

So the teaching is proclaiming God making something Very Good, is to be understood as that He could have done better with mankind. Further actually I think, our bodies might be looked as part of the punishment for sin. And to the degree one looks at our bodies that way, maybe even evil, including the idea of gender being evil.

Are there other things God is said to do imperfectly?
And what in this teaching allows for a spirit to have a physical need to eat a plant?

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He could have kept all the serpents out of the garden, for one thing. Actually, I seem to remember Adam blamed him for making Eve after they both sinned. The original teaching is that earth is imperfect on purpose, so God can love something that is not perfect, thus showing the greatness of His love in a new way. The physical need to eat is based on the fact that some of the pieces of earth included parts of the DNA of animals. BUT, one teaching from the early days says Adam and Eve did not have stomachs until after the fall. The book says that an angel threw them a giant fig from inside the garden, that lasted them for several days. Also, for whatever it's worth, many Jews consider the Fall to have been a good thing, humanity "coming of age".

Ken Behrens said:

I say IF because I think it is a reach to equate the word neshama with the spirit. Pro: Jesus says the spirit is like the wind, and the Spirit at Pentecost showed up in a wind. Con: Why use the different Hebrew word, if they are the same, and why do the Hebrews say that ruach and chai (life is considered part of person also, as are spirit, soul and body) are different things if they can be equated.

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I think "like the wind" "blowing where it will" does not mean He 'is the wind'. Just like the Holy Spirit descended "like a dove" and not 'as a dove' upon Jesus. I know I never heard any wind, or saw any dove when I received my baptism in the Spirit and spoke in tongues. I did think I 'heard' Him 'rushing like a mighty wind in my head' when I was sitting in the chair for the first time ever having 5 people praying for me with the laying on of hands'. Later I admit, it was more than likely just the blood rushing in my ears from the stress. But hey 'I got it' that night, and that's what counted.

The theory of soul power is that we can mimic to some extent the miracles of God using our souls, without the spirit being involved. In the 1970's this explanation was invoked to account for the success of witchcraft spells, and today is used to explain healing by Reiki. The assumption is, that when God uses us to work a miracle, His Spirit guides our souls, and the soul exercises abilities according to His spirit, like a worship musician lets God guide his fingers (in His body) when playing under the anointing. If that is the assumption made, then spirit and soul are necessarily different, since the same results can sometimes be achieved simply by the person himself willing it. In my experience, the model seems to be a good one for what I have seen.

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So, do you think Reiki is of God, or white witch then? I ask because I take care of a massage therapist who quit Buddhism and Reiki after becoming a Christian. I watched a 10 part psychic TV series where they helped cops solve crimes. And my thought was, are they all the devil's servants in this, or are they all just branded by the overly judgmental, and spiritually unqualified, church? If it's all devil's imitation then where is God's original, in the church being used for the good of man?

I still eat fish all the time. I like it now more than meat. If I were still Catholic, I would be too old to have to fast.

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I'm glad I quit before I knew we had an expiration date.

Hillsage said:

I think "like the wind" "blowing where it will" does not mean He 'is the wind'. Just like the Holy Spirit descended "like a dove" and not 'as a dove' upon Jesus. I know I never heard any wind, or saw any dove when I received my baptism in the Spirit and spoke in tongues. I did think I 'heard' Him 'rushing like a mighty wind in my head' when I was sitting in the chair for the first time ever having 5 people praying for me with the laying on of hands'. Later I admit, it was more than likely just the blood rushing in my ears from the stress. But hey 'I got it' that night, and that's what counted.



So, do you think Reiki is of God, or white witch then? I ask because I take care of a massage therapist who quit Buddhism and Reiki after becoming a Christian. I watched a 10 part psychic TV series where they helped cops solve crimes. And my thought was, are they all the devil's servants in this, or are they all just branded by the overly judgmental, and spiritually unqualified, church? If it's all devil's imitation then where is God's original, in the church being used for the good of man?


I'm glad I quit before I knew we had an expiration date.

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My thoughts verbatim. That's why I do not associate neshama with spirit.

Reiki is not of God, it is a soul power counterfeit. Used enough, it slowly pulls participants away from the presence of God, and connects them to their own pride. Because pagans/atheists can do it, it clearly does not reside in the spirit, hence the term "soul power". Same of white witchcraft. The fruits prove those who brand them correct.

Age 59.5. That's how I learned it in Catholic school.

Ken Behrens said:

He could have kept all the serpents out of the garden, for one thing. Actually, I seem to remember Adam blamed him for making Eve after they both sinned. The original teaching is that earth is imperfect on purpose, so God can love something that is not perfect, thus showing the greatness of His love in a new way. The physical need to eat is based on the fact that some of the pieces of earth included parts of the DNA of animals. BUT, one teaching from the early days says Adam and Eve did not have stomachs until after the fall. The book says that an angel threw them a giant fig from inside the garden, that lasted them for several days. Also, for whatever it's worth, many Jews consider the Fall to have been a good thing, humanity "coming of age".

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I would hesitate to claim a thing was an "original teaching" if one does not at least link to an ECF or some ancient record for support of such a claim. Some people back then claimed Christians were cannibals, referencing their writings does not mean that was a true belief of Christians, but those false claims do support a misunderstanding of teachings on the Eucharist which were obviously presented as true back then in order for such claims to have any foundation in truth, as all decent false claims do. People back then, even Christians just as now, made all sorts of claims, even ECFs and Saints. But asking what was the Church, forget RCC, what was the Church - the body of Christian believers - then response to such claims is a more important question. Finding even an ECF quote that "appears" to support a claim is not even "proof" that what is being claimed today is an "original teaching" of the Body of Christ back then.

Look at Scripture. For a time much of the Church believed and wanted to teach that all adults wanting to join needed to become Jewish first. If we had other writings from that age, could we then quote them and accurate claim adult circumcision was an "original teaching" of the Christian Church. Well, yeah we might, but Scripture also declares that the Church declared that teaching was wrong. And we see this over and over again in Church history, often - just like this first example in ACTS - it was not a majority opinion that wins as being correct/true.

Ken Behrens said:

Age 59.5. That's how I learned it in Catholic school.

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My 8 day water only fast, which I felt I was 'called' to do, was several years after 'that' cut off date. I guess God doesn't know anything about 'that age limit'. Or I missed what I consider a pretty 'clear' Word, upon waking up 'that morning'.

St_Worm2 said:

Hi Yogosans, Jesus was crucified and buried, and on the third day He rose from the dead. If He rose as a spirit only (as our JW friends insist), where did His body go?

His tomb was EMPTY
.

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Hebrews 11:5
Deuteronomy 34:5
Deuteronomy 34:6

Two more people who died but whose bodies could not be found. A missing body does not assert that one was risen up in it. The men in the aforementioned scriptures were not risen, but their bodies could not be found either. If God can create a physical body from dust, why is it hard to believe that he can make one disappear?