Cessationism question

Job8

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2014
4,634
1,801
✟21,583.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
There could be a lot of reasons why "every church" doesn't have those with the gift of healing, other than Cessationism being true.
Evasion does not address this. If indeed ALL the spiritual gifts are still in force, then every church needs a healer with supernatural powers (regardless of denomination). And every hospital should be empty. When multitudes came to Christ for healing they were ALL healed. When the apostles were doing their miracles, the crowds were ALL healed.
 
Upvote 0

Biblicist

Full Gospel believer
Mar 27, 2011
7,023
992
Melbourne, Australia
✟43,594.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Evasion does not address this. If indeed ALL the spiritual gifts are still in force, then every church needs a healer with supernatural powers (regardless of denomination). And every hospital should be empty. When multitudes came to Christ for healing they were ALL healed. When the apostles were doing their miracles, the crowds were ALL healed.
There is a common misconception that the Office of Healings that the Father established for the local congregation (1Cor 12:28) functions the same way as the Apostles did when they were functioning under "Signs and Wonders", the two are not one and the same.
 
Upvote 0

GoldenKingGaze

Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.
Mar 12, 2007
4,200
518
Visit site
✟249,501.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Single
Politics
AU-Labor
There is a common misconception that the Office of Healings that the Father established for the local congregation (1Cor 12:28) functions the same way as the Apostles did when they were functioning under "Signs and Wonders", the two are not one and the same.
Can you explain this further and the source of the point?
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,024
7,364
60
Indianapolis, IN
✟549,630.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Hi

I am a former continuationist, having reformed in the last year. It was quite a lengthy process and I remained theoretically continuationist until recently. My position had become all but fixed when I came across a verse which could feasibly be the final nail in the proverbial coffin if I understand it correctly.

The verse in question is John 9:4 - "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work". Its context is one of Jesus' healing miracles, and I understand it to mean that the darkness is the cessation of spiritual sign gifts. I tried to consider if it was an eschatological verse, but the context keeps drawing me back here.

I know that this is a touchy and controversial subject so I am probably inviting lots of heat by mentioning it, but I'd like if someone could explain the verse and clarify whether it speaks to this or something else.

Thanks
I don't think there is a direct correlation here, clearly the works of Christ do include miracles. The cessation question is actually centered in Corinthians 12-14 and just an understanding of redemptive history. I think the darkness he is talking about is the cross, many miracles followed the ministry of the Apostles for decades. Miracles still happen but they are not as common as they would have been during the times of Moses and Joshua, Elijah and Elisha, Christ and the Apostles. Miracles confirmed the word that was going out, once the time of revelation had passed the miracles were not as common.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
Upvote 0

Biblicist

Full Gospel believer
Mar 27, 2011
7,023
992
Melbourne, Australia
✟43,594.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Can you explain this further and the source of the point?
A little while back I undertook a fairly indepth study into what are signs, wonders and miracles so you might find the following notes that I produced during my analysis helpful - though I would not expect anyone to be able to digest it all under a few weeks.

__________________________________________

The expression signs & wonders was unquestionably popularized during the ministry of John Wimber during the 1980’s and 90’s. Since this time we continue to see a plethora of similar meetings being held under the banner of “Signs & Wonders”.

Before I go on, it should be stated that healing is certainly a provision of the New Covenant where we are told that the Holy Spirit will work through individuals within both deeds of powers and healings and that the Father has established 8 Congregational Offices where two are also deeds of powers and healings.

The problem we have with trying to access what are often deemed to be signs & wonders, is that they are not something that we can appropriate through the agency of the Holy Spirit. When we need healing for whatever reason, we can certainly obey the Word by approaching the Elders (James 5:14) where they are to pray over the person who is sick. The key aspect of their prayer is that in many situations that this necessitates that the 8 Congregational Offices/functions of 1Cor 12:28 are in operation within the local assembly, which would require that at least one Elder is able to operate within the Office of healings and depending on the circumstances another may need to operate within deeds of power (aka, miracles).

According to James 5 it seems that there can be times where someones sickness may be the result of a specific sin where they may only need to confess their sin to receive their healing. One of the obvious reasons that we are told to go to the Elders for prayer is that one of the Elders may already be aware of some potential sin which he can raise and have the issue dealt with; whereas another Elder might need to be functioning within the word of knowledge where the Spirit of God might reveal the sin so that it can be dealt with.

Unlike the Offices (or functions, roles) of deeds of powers and healings which are the responsibility of the Holy Spirit, when we move into the realm of signs & wonders these appear to be the sole agency of the Father, where it is his prerogative and his alone to outwork them as he so pleases. The following two lists of 16 OT passages and 16 NT passages which speak of signs & wonders should make this aspect a bit clearer.

This creates a problem for both the cessationist and the Continuist, where the cessationist who tries to correctly point out that signs & wonders were primarily the domain of those who were the Apostles-of-Christ, when they take this further by trying to connect the 9 Manifestations of the Holy Spirit (1Cor 12:7-10) as supposedly being sign-gifts (a horrid term) which belonged to the past, a Continuist may quickly stumble when they try and say that “Signs & Wonders” are a regular occurrence of the Church, as with tongues, prophecy and healings; so the cessationist may be able to find a an excuse to walk away from the Holy Spirit’s ministry.

For those Continuists who have not realised that the Manifestations of the Spirit (1Cor 12:7-10) are not the same as the signs & wonders that the Father can administer at his own place and timing, this means that they can all too easily claim the rights and privileges that were given to those who were commissioned by the Son as his Apostles-of-Christ. This can allow us to all too easily move into presumption where we can begin to claim things that we should not be attempting to claim.

OT applications of "Signs & Wonders"

1. Exodus 7:3 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in Egypt,
2. Deut 4:34 Has any god ever tried to take for himself one nation out of another nation, by testings, by signs and wonders, by war, by a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, or by great and awesome deeds, like all the things the LORD your God did for you in Egypt before your very eyes?
3. Deut 6:22 Before our eyes the LORD sent signs and wonders--great and terrible--on Egypt and Pharaoh and his whole household.
4. Deut 7:19 You saw with your own eyes the great trials, the signs and wonders, the mighty hand and outstretched arm, with which the LORD your God brought you out. The LORD your God will do the same to all the peoples you now fear.
5. Deut 26:8 So the LORD brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, with great terror and with signs and wonders.
6. Deut 29:3 With your own eyes you saw those great trials, those signs and great wonders.
7. Deut 34:11 who did all those signs and wonders the LORD sent him to do in Egypt--to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land.
8. Neh 9:10 You sent signs and wonders against Pharaoh, against all his officials and all the people of his land, for you knew how arrogantly the Egyptians treated them. You made a name for yourself, which remains to this day.
9. Psa 78:43 the day he displayed his signs in Egypt, his wonders in the region of Zoan.
10. Psa 105:27 They performed his signs among them, his wonders in the land of Ham.
11. Psalm 135:9 He sent his signs and wonders into your midst, Egypt, against Pharaoh and all his servants.
12. Jer 32:20 You performed signs and wonders in Egypt and have continued them to this day, in Israel and among all mankind, and have gained the renown that is still yours.
13. Jer 32:21 You brought your people Israel out of Egypt with signs and wonders, by a mighty hand and an outstretched arm and with great terror.
14. Dan 4:2 It is my pleasure to tell you about the miraculous signs and wonders that the Most High God has performed for me.
15. Dan 4:3 How great are his signs, how mighty his wonders! His kingdom is an eternal kingdom; his dominion endures from generation to generation.
16. Dan 6:27 He rescues and he saves; he performs signs and wonders in the heavens and on the earth. He has rescued Daniel from the power of the lions."

Note: There are also two additional references to both a sign and a wonder in Duet 13:1 and 2 where they speak of prophets who could work both the sign and wonder but where they are false prophets. God may or may not be the agent of the sign and wonder so it’s a difficult to know exactly where this passage fits in.
. . . . . . .

(Sign) Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament (HALOT) -- BibleWorks9
אֵת particle direct object marker homonym 1 אוֹת noun common both plural construct suffix 1st person common singular
Hol246 אוֹת
I אוֹת (80 ×), אֹת; pl. ת(וֹ)אֹתֹ, sf. תָיו(וֹ)אֹתֹ; masc., rarely fem. (e.g. Gn 912•17): sign: a) (distinguishing) mark Gn 415; b) (battle) banner? Nu 22; c) sign to bring to mind (covenant) obligation Gn 912; d) memorial Ex 139; e) sign guaranteeing afterwards the dependability of assertion Ex 312; f) miraculous sign, showing s.one's power Ex 48; g) omen, announcing s.thg to come Gn 114; h) warning, deterring example Nu 173. (pg 8)​

(Sign) NASB Bible -- BibleWorks9
<0226> אוֹת oth (16d)
Meaning: a sign
Origin: from 184
Usage: banners(1), omens(1), pledge(1), sign(43), signs(30), standards(1), witness(1), wondrous(1).
Notes:
a Exo 4:21
b Exo 11:9; Act 7:36​

(Wonder) Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament (HALOT) -- BibleWorks9
4916 מוֹפֵת
מוֹפֵת, SamP. (Ben-H. Dt 132 muÒfat): ? etym.; MHeb.2, JArm.t מוֹפְתָא: ? Ph. מפת (Jean-H. Dictionnaire 164): פֶתכֶם(וֹ)מֹ, מוֹפְתִים, מוֹפְתָיו; ï Keller Oth 60f; Quell Fschr. Baumgärtel 288f; Stolz ZThK 69:125ff; THAT 1:91ff: wonder, sign, Sept. usu. τέρας, most often in Deuteronomic passages, first in Is; given by people: by a prophet, Moses and Aaron Ex 421 1110, Is 818 203 Ezk 126.11 2424.27, Ps 717 (portent, in a bad sense); אַנְשֵׁי מ׳ Zech 38 (1QHod 721); through celestial phenomena Jl 33, 2C 3231, the plagues in Egypt Ex 119; with אוֹת Ex 73 Dt 434 622 719 132f 268 2846 (curses) 292 3411 Is 818 203 Jr 3220f Ps 7843 10527 1359 Neh 910; parallel with אוֹת and מַסָּה Dt 434 719 292, parallel with נִפְלָאָה and מִשְׁפָּטִים Ps 1055 1C 1612; נָתַן מוֹפֵת perform a wonder Ex 79 2C 3224, to promise a sign Dt 132, to announce a sign 1K 133.5; מוֹפֵת דִּבֶּר to give a sign 1K 133. †​


(Wonder) NASB Bible -- BibleWorks9
<04159> מוֹפֵת mopheth or מֹפֵת mopheth (68d)
Meaning: a wonder, sign, portent
Origin: from an unused word
Usage: marvel(1), marvels(3), miracle(1), miracles(1), sign(8), symbol(1), token(1), wonder(4), wonders(17).
Notes:
a Exo 4:21
b Exo 11:9; Act 7:36​

. . . . . . .

"Signs & Wonders" - New Testament (NIV Revised)

1. Matthew 24:24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
2. Mark 13:22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
3. John 4:48 "Unless you people see signs and wonders," Jesus told him, "you will never believe."
4. Acts 2:19 I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke.
5. Acts 2:22 "Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
6. Acts 2:43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles.
7. Acts 4:30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus."
8. Acts 5:12 The apostles performed many signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon's Colonnade.
9. Acts 6:8 Now Stephen, a man full of God's grace and power, performed great wonders and signs among the people.
10. Acts 7:36 He led them out of Egypt and performed wonders and signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the wilderness.
11. Acts 14:3 So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to perform signs and wonders.
12. Acts 15:12 The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them.
13. Romans 15:19 by the power of signs and wonders, through the power of the Spirit of God. So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ.
14. 2 Corinthians 12:12 I persevered in demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including signs, wonders and miracles.
15. 2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie,
16. Hebrews 2:4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.​

. . . . . .

Lexical Analysis:

7067 συνεπιμαρτυρέω […testified to it]
συνεπιμαρτυρέω testify at the same time (Petosiris, fgm. 21 ln. 58; Polyb. 25, 6, 4; Ps.-Aristot., De Mundo 6; Sext. Emp., Math. 8, 323; Athen. 13, 595e; EpArist 191; Philo, Mos. 2, 123) foll. by ὅτι 1 Cl 23:5. τινί by means of someth. Hb 2:4, to someth. 1 Cl 43:1.—DELG s.v. μάρτυς. M-M. TW.​

6634 σημεῖον
σημεῖον, ου, τό (s. prec. entry; Aeschyl., Hdt.+; ins, pap, LXX, pseudepigr., Philo, Joseph., apolog.; loanw. in rabb.; Hippol., Ref. 6, 27, 4; Did., Gen. 115, 9 ‘symbol’; gener. ‘sign’)
  1. a sign or distinguishing mark whereby someth. is known, . . .
  2. an event that is an indication or confirmation of intervention by transcendent powers, miracle, portent
a. miracle
α
. a miracle of divine origin, performed by God himself, by Christ, or by men of God . . .
β. worked by Satan or his agents to mislead God’s people . . .
b. portent terrifying appearances in the heavens, never before seen, as portents of the last days

NASB Bible <4592> σημεῖον (semeion) GK4956
Meaning: a sign
Origin: from the same as 4591
Usage: distinguishing mark(1), miracle(m)(2), sign(35), signs(39).​

NASB Bible <5059> τέρας (teras) GK5469
Meaning: a wonder, marvel
Origin: a prim. word
Usage: wonders(16).​

NASB Bible <1411> δύναμις (dunamis) GK1539
Meaning: (miraculous) power, might, strength
Origin: from 1410
Usage: ability(4), meaning(1), mightily(1), mighty(1), miracle(2), miracles(17),
miraculous powers(3), power(80), Power(3), powers(6), strength(2), wealth(m)(1).​

BGAD 4821 μερισμός
μερισμός, οῦ, (μερίζω; Pla. +; ins, pap, LXX, TestJob 46:1; Philo; Jos., C. Ap. 2, 203; Ar. 6, 1; Tat. 5, 1).
1. division, separation
a.
ἄχρι μερισμοῦ ψυχῆς καὶ πνεύματος to the separation of soul and spirit, i.e. so as to separate soul and spirit Hb 4:12.
b.
in Ign. w. ref. to dissidents, who have separated themselves: (the) division partly as action, partly as result IPhld 2:1; 3:1; 8:1; pl. ISm 7:2. ὥ προειδότα τὸν μ. τινων as one who knew of the division caused by certain people IPhld 7:2.
2. distribution, apportionment (Aeneas Tact. ln. 27; Polyb. 31, 10, 1; SIG 1017, 16 [III BC]; TestJob 46:1; Josh 11:23; Philo, Poster. Cai. 90) ἁγίου πνεύματος μερισμοί distributions of the Holy Spirit, i.e. of the various gifts proceeding from the Holy Spirit Hb 2:4. AcPl Ha 8, 18 κατὰ … μ. λαμβάνοντες//Ox 1602, 22 κατὰ μ. λαβόντες//BMM recto 22-24.—DELG s.v. μείρομαι II. M-M.​


NASB Bible <3311> μερισμός (merismos) GK3536
Meaning: a dividing, distribution
Origin: from 3307
Usage: division(1), gifts(m)(1).​

LSJ Lexicon (Abridged)
38742 σημεῖον
σημεῖον
, τό, Ion. σημήιον, Dor. σαμᾷον, (σῆμα) a sign, a mark, token, Hdt., Att.
2. a sign from the gods, an omen, Soph., Plat.: esp. of the constellations, Eur.
3. a sign or signal to do a thing made by flags, Hdt.; αἴρειν, κατασπᾶν τὸ ς. to make or take down the signal for battle, Thuc.; τὰ σημεῖα ἤρθη the signals agreed upon were made, Id.
4. an ensign or flag, on the admiral's ship, Hdt.; on the general's tent, Xen.:-then, generally, a standard, ensign, Eur.: hence, a boundary, limit, Dem.
5. a device upon a shield, Hdt., Eur.; upon ships, a figure-head, Ar.
6. a signal, watchword, Thuc.
II. in reasoning, a sign or proof, Ar., Thuc., etc.:- σημεῖον δέ: or σημεῖον γάρ: (to introduce an argument) this is a proof of it, Dem., etc.​

Friberg Lexicon
24387 σημεῖον, ου, τό (1) basically, as what serves as a pointer to aid perception or insight sign, mark, distinguishing characteristic; (2) as what distinguishes one person or thing from another sign, token, mark (LU 2.12; RO 4.11); (3) as a miraculous event contrary to the usual course of nature and intended as a pointer or means of confirmation, often used with τέρας (wonder) sign (MK 13.22); as a miraculous event resulting from personal action sign, miracle (JN 2.11; RV 13.13)​

Louw-Nida Lexicon
33.477 σημεῖον, ου n: an event which is regarded as having some special meaning - 'sign.' εἰπὲ ἡμῖν ... τί τὸ σημεῖον τῆς σῆς παρουσίας 'tell us ... what will be the sign of your coming' Mt 24.3. In translating σημεῖον in Mt 24.3, it may be necessary in some languages to say 'tell us what will happen that will show that you are coming' or 'tell us what we will see that will make us know that you are coming.'

σημεῖον as an event with special meaning was inevitably an unusual or even miraculous type of occurrence, and in a number of contexts σημεῖον may be rendered as 'miracle.' Certainly that is the referent of the term σημεῖον in Jn 2.23 (πολλοὶ ἐπίστευσαν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ, θεωροῦντες αὐτοῦ τὰ σημεῖα ἃ ἐποίει 'many believed in him as they saw the signs he did').

For the Gospel of John, however, a σημεῖον is not simply a miraculous event but something which points to a reality with even greater significance. A strictly literal translation of σημεῖον as 'sign' might mean nothing more than a road sign or a sign on a building, and therefore in some languages σημεῖον in a context such as Jn 2.23 may be rendered as 'a miracle with great meaning.'​

VGNT Dictionary
3826 σημεῖον [pg 572]
σημεῖον,
(1) “sign,” “seal”: cf. P Rev Lxxvi. 5 (B.C. 259–8) ἀποδειξάτωσαν] τὸ ἐπιβ@λ]ηθὲν σημεῖον ἀσινέ@ς, “let them exhibit the seal which has been appended unbroken.”

(2) “outward distinguishing mark”: cf. P Par 18bis 10 (Roman) ἔστιν δὲ σημεῖον τῆς ταφῆς, BGU II. 42730 (A.D. 159) πέπρακα τὸν κάμηλον θήλιαν, ο@ὗ] τὸ σημεῖον πρόκιται, and Preisigke 56796 (A.D. 307) ὄνου λευ]κῆς οὔsης, ἐχούσης σημεῖοn @ἐ]πὶ @τοῦ τραχή]λου. Similarly of a bodily “mark” disqualifying from the priesthood—ib. 1527 (A.D. 155–6) Ἀγa@θ]οκλῆς ἐπύθετο, εἴ τινα σημεῖα ἔχουσιν @οἱ παῖδες ἐπὶ τοῦ σώματος, BGU I. 34714 (A.D. 171 ) (= Chrest. I. p. 105) Σερηνια@νὸς] ἐpύθετο … εἰ @σ]ηm@εῖο]n ἔχοι ὁ @παῖ]ς. εἰπόντων ἄσημον αὐτὸν εἶναι … ἀρχιερεὺς … ἐκέλευσεν τὸν παῖ@δα περιτ]μηθῆναι @κατὰ] τὸ ἔθος, and so ib. 829 (A.D. 185). In P Amh II. 392 (late ii/B.C.) A military corps of youths are described as οἱ @ἐκ] τοῦ σημείου νεανίσκοι, and for σημεῖον as an index of inward character, as in 2 Cor 1212, cf. a rescript of Hadrian Syll 384 (= 3 831)14 (A.D. 117) ἡγούμην σημεῖα ἀγαθῶν ἀνδρῶν τὰ τοιαῦτα εἶναι.

(3) In P Oxy II. 2936 (A.D. 27) οὔτε διὰ γραπτοῦ οὔτε διὰ σημε<ί>ου, the editors understand the meaning to be “either by letter or by message,” and so Wilcken Archiv iv. p. 259. Similarly in P Fay 1286 (iii/A.D.), P Oxy IV. 7243 (A.D. 155) of tachygraphic signs. In ib. XIV. 16359 (B.C. 44–37), a document dealing with the cession of catoecic land, τοῖς ἄλλοις σημείοις seems to refer to “boundary-marks” rather than to “title-deeds”: cf. ib. III. 50415 (early ii/A.D.) and the note to P Ryl II. 15915. See also Syll 929 (= 3 685)70, 75 (B.C. 139).

(4) For σημεῖον in its NT sense of “miracle” or “wonder” (Mt 1238 f., al.), we may cite Syll 326 (= 3 709)25 (c. B.C. 107) προεσάμανε μὲν τὰν μέλλουσαν γίνεσθαι πρᾶξιν @διὰ τ]ῶν ἐν τῶι ἱερῶι γενομένων σαμείων, and for the meaning “proof,” see the illiterate P Oxy XIV. 168318 (late iv/A.D.) σημίου δὲ χάριν. Deissmann (LAE2, p. 167) has pointed out that in 2 Thess 317 σημεῖον has the same force as the σύμβολον which in other cases was given to the bearer of a letter in proof of his commission, cf. e.g. P Passalacqua15 (iii/B.C.) (= Witkowski Epp.2, p. 54) ἀπεδόθη τάδ᾽ αὐτῶι καὶ τὸ σύμβολον τῶν ἐγ.​

Gingrich Lexicon
5762 σημεῖον
σημεῖον
, ου, τό sign1. the sign or (distinguishing) mark by which something is known, token, indication Mt 16:3; 24:3, 30; Mk 13:4; Lk 2:12, 34; 11:29f; 21:7; Ro 4:11; 1 Cor 14:22; 2 Th 3:17. Signal Mt 26:48.—2. a sign consisting of a miracle or wondera. miracle of divine origin Mt 12:38f; 16:1, 4; Mk 8:11f; 16:17, 20; Lk 11:16, 29; 23:8; J 2:11, 18; 3:2; 4:48; 6:2, 14; 7:31; 9:16; Ac 2:22, 43; 4:16, 22; 14:3; Ro 15:19; 1 Cor 1:22; 2 Cor 12:12a; Hb 2:4.—b. miracle of a demonic nature Mk 13:22; 2 Th 2:9; Rv 13:13f; 16:14; 19:20.—c. portent Lk 21:11, 25; Ac 2:19; Rv 12:1, 3; 15:1. [semio-, combining form as in semiology, semiotic] [pg 180]​


.............................

Hebrews 2:4 Text comparison
Heb 2:4 is an interesting text in that many presume that the writer of Hebrews is connecting the Manifestations of the Holy Spirit (aka, gifts) with that of signs and wonders. This point is regularly addressed within the better newer commentaries on Hebrews.

Heb 2_4 (Signs_wonders_Holy Spirit).png
  1. (Heb 2:4 GNT) συνεπιμαρτυροῦντος τοῦ θεοῦ σημείοις τε καὶ τέρασιν καὶ ποικίλαις δυνάμεσιν καὶ πνεύματος ἁγίου μερισμοῖς κατὰ τὴν αὐτοῦ θέλησιν;
  2. NIV Hebrews 2:4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.
  3. NASB Hebrews 2:4 God also bearing witness with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.
  4. ESV Hebrews 2:4 while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.
  5. NRSV Hebrews 2:4 while God added his testimony by signs and wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit, distributed according to his will.
  6. Holman Hebrews 2:4 At the same time, God also testified by signs and wonders, various miracles, and distributions of gifts from the Holy Spirit according to His will.
  7. KJV Hebrews 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
. . . . . . .

Word count (Sign*) NIV
  1. God said, "Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years,
  2. NIV Genesis 9:12 And God said, "This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come:
  3. NIV Genesis 9:13 I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth.
  4. NIV Genesis 9:17 So God said to Noah, "This is the sign of the covenant I have established between me and all life on the earth."
  5. NIV Genesis 17:11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you.
  6. NIV Genesis 49:3 "Reuben, you are my firstborn, my might, the first sign of my strength, excelling in honor, excelling in power.
  7. NIV Exodus 3:12 And God said, "I will be with you. And this will be the sign to you that it is I who have sent you: When you have brought the people out of Egypt, you1 will worship God on this mountain."
  8. NIV Exodus 4:8 Then the LORD said, "If they do not believe you or pay attention to the first sign, they may believe the second.
  9. NIV Exodus 4:9 But if they do not believe these two signs or listen to you, take some water from the Nile and pour it on the dry ground. The water you take from the river will become blood on the ground."
  10. NIV Exodus 4:17 But take this staff in your hand so you can perform the signs with it."
  11. NIV Exodus 4:28 Then Moses told Aaron everything the LORD had sent him to say, and also about all the signs he had commanded him to perform.
  12. NIV Exodus 4:30 and Aaron told them everything the LORD had said to Moses. He also performed the signs before the people,
  13. NIV Exodus 7:3 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in Egypt,
  14. NIV Exodus 8:23 I will make a distinction1 between my people and your people. This sign will occur tomorrow.'"
  15. NIV Exodus 10:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these signs of mine among them
  16. NIV Exodus 10:2 that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD."
  17. NIV Exodus 12:13 The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are, and when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike Egypt.
  18. NIV Exodus 13:9 This observance will be for you like a sign on your hand and a reminder on your forehead that this law of the LORD is to be on your lips. For the LORD brought you out of Egypt with his mighty hand.
  19. NIV Exodus 13:16 And it will be like a sign on your hand and a symbol on your forehead that the LORD brought us out of Egypt with his mighty hand."
  20. NIV Exodus 31:13 "Say to the Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy.
  21. NIV Exodus 31:17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed. '"
  22. NIV Numbers 14:11 The LORD said to Moses, "How long will these people treat me with contempt? How long will they refuse to believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have performed among them?
  23. NIV Numbers 14:22 not one of those who saw my glory and the signs I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness but who disobeyed me and tested me ten times--
  24. NIV Numbers 16:38 the censers of the men who sinned at the cost of their lives. Hammer the censers into sheets to overlay the altar, for they were presented before the LORD and have become holy. Let them be a sign to the Israelites."
  25. NIV Numbers 17:10 The LORD said to Moses, "Put back Aaron's staff in front of the ark of the covenant law, to be kept as a sign to the rebellious. This will put an end to their grumbling against me, so that they will not die."
  26. NIV Numbers 26:10 The earth opened its mouth and swallowed them along with Korah, whose followers died when the fire devoured the 250 men. And they served as a warning sign.
  27. NIV Deuteronomy 4:34 Has any god ever tried to take for himself one nation out of another nation, by testings, by signs and wonders, by war, by a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, or by great and awesome deeds, like all the things the LORD your God did for you in Egypt before your very eyes?
  28. NIV Deuteronomy 6:22 Before our eyes the LORD sent signs and wonders-- great and terrible-- on Egypt and Pharaoh and his whole household.
  29. NIV Deuteronomy 7:19 You saw with your own eyes the great trials, the signs and wonders, the mighty hand and outstretched arm, with which the LORD your God brought you out. The LORD your God will do the same to all the peoples you now fear.
  30. NIV Deuteronomy 11:3 the signs he performed and the things he did in the heart of Egypt, both to Pharaoh king of Egypt and to his whole country;
  31. NIV Deuteronomy 13:1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder,
  32. NIV Deuteronomy 13:2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them,"
  33. NIV Deuteronomy 21:17 He must acknowledge the son of his unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double share of all he has. That son is the first sign of his father's strength. The right of the firstborn belongs to him.
  34. NIV Deuteronomy 26:8 So the LORD brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, with great terror and with signs and wonders.
  35. NIV Deuteronomy 28:46 They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever.
  36. NIV Deuteronomy 29:3 With your own eyes you saw those great trials, those signs and great wonders.
  37. NIV Deuteronomy 34:11 who did all those signs and wonders the LORD sent him to do in Egypt-- to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land.
  38. NIV Joshua 2:12 "Now then, please swear to me by the LORD that you will show kindness to my family, because I have shown kindness to you. Give me a sure sign
  39. NIV Joshua 4:6 to serve as a sign among you. In the future, when your children ask you, 'What do these stones mean?'
  40. NIV Joshua 24:17 It was the LORD our God himself who brought us and our parents up out of Egypt, from that land of slavery, and performed those great signs before our eyes. He protected us on our entire journey and among all the nations through which we traveled.
  41. NIV Judges 6:17 Gideon replied, "If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign that it is really you talking to me.
  42. NIV 1 Samuel 2:34 "'And what happens to your two sons, Hophni and Phinehas, will be a sign to you-- they will both die on the same day.
  43. NIV 1 Samuel 10:7 Once these signs are fulfilled, do whatever your hand finds to do, for God is with you.
  44. NIV 1 Samuel 10:9 As Saul turned to leave Samuel, God changed Saul's heart, and all these signs were fulfilled that day.
  45. NIV 1 Samuel 14:10 But if they say, 'Come up to us,' we will climb up, because that will be our sign that the LORD has given them into our hands."
  46. NIV 1 Kings 13:3 That same day the man of God gave a sign: "This is the sign the LORD has declared: The altar will be split apart and the ashes on it will be poured out."
  47. NIV 1 Kings 13:5 Also, the altar was split apart and its ashes poured out according to the sign given by the man of God by the word of the LORD.
  48. NIV 1 Kings 20:33 The men took this as a good sign and were quick to pick up his word. "Yes, your brother Ben-Hadad!" they said. "Go and get him," the king said. When Ben-Hadad came out, Ahab had him come up into his chariot.
  49. NIV 2 Kings 19:29 "This will be the sign for you, Hezekiah: "This year you will eat what grows by itself, and the second year what springs from that. But in the third year sow and reap, plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
  50. NIV 2 Kings 20:8 Hezekiah had asked Isaiah, "What will be the sign that the LORD will heal me and that I will go up to the temple of the LORD on the third day from now?"
  51. NIV 2 Kings 20:9 Isaiah answered, "This is the LORD's sign to you that the LORD will do what he has promised: Shall the shadow go forward ten steps, or shall it go back ten steps?"
  52. NIV 2 Chronicles 32:24 In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. He prayed to the LORD, who answered him and gave him a miraculous sign.
  53. NIV 2 Chronicles 32:31 But when envoys were sent by the rulers of Babylon to ask him about the miraculous sign that had occurred in the land, God left him to test him and to know everything that was in his heart.
  54. NIV Nehemiah 9:10 You sent signs and wonders against Pharaoh, against all his officials and all the people of his land, for you knew how arrogantly the Egyptians treated them. You made a name for yourself, which remains to this day.
  55. NIV Job 31:35 ("Oh, that I had someone to hear me! I sign now my defense-- let the Almighty answer me; let my accuser put his indictment in writing.
  56. NIV Psalm 71:7 I have become a sign to many; you are my strong refuge.
  57. NIV Psalm 74:4 Your foes roared in the place where you met with us; they set up their standards as signs.
  58. NIV Psalm 74:9 We are given no signs from God; no prophets are left, and none of us knows how long this will be.
  59. NIV Psalm 78:43 the day he displayed his signs in Egypt, his wonders in the region of Zoan.
  60. NIV Psalm 86:17 Give me a sign of your goodness, that my enemies may see it and be put to shame, for you, LORD, have helped me and comforted me.
  61. NIV Psalm 105:27 They performed his signs among them, his wonders in the land of Ham.
  62. NIV Psalm 135:9 He sent his signs and wonders into your midst, Egypt, against Pharaoh and all his servants.
  63. NIV Isaiah 7:11 "Ask the LORD your God for a sign, whether in the deepest depths or in the highest heights."
  64. NIV Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you1 a sign: The virgin2 will conceive and give birth to a son, and3 will call him Immanuel.4
  65. NIV Isaiah 8:18 Here am I, and the children the LORD has given me. We are signs and symbols in Israel from the LORD Almighty, who dwells on Mount Zion.
  66. NIV Isaiah 19:20 It will be a sign and witness to the LORD Almighty in the land of Egypt. When they cry out to the LORD because of their oppressors, he will send them a savior and defender, and he will rescue them.
  67. NIV Isaiah 20:3 Then the LORD said, "Just as my servant Isaiah has gone stripped and barefoot for three years, as a sign and portent against Egypt and Cush,1
  68. NIV Isaiah 37:30 "This will be the sign for you, Hezekiah: "This year you will eat what grows by itself, and the second year what springs from that. But in the third year sow and reap, plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
  69. NIV Isaiah 38:7 "'This is the LORD's sign to you that the LORD will do what he has promised:
  70. NIV Isaiah 38:22 Hezekiah had asked, "What will be the sign that I will go up to the temple of the LORD?"
  71. NIV Isaiah 44:25 who foils the signs of false prophets and makes fools of diviners, who overthrows the learning of the wise and turns it into nonsense,
  72. NIV Isaiah 55:13 Instead of the thornbush will grow the juniper, and instead of briers the myrtle will grow. This will be for the LORD's renown, for an everlasting sign, that will endure forever."
  73. NIV Isaiah 66:19 "I will set a sign among them, and I will send some of those who survive to the nations-- to Tarshish, to the Libyans1 and Lydians (famous as archers), to Tubal and Greece, and to the distant islands that have not heard of my fame or seen my glory. They will proclaim my glory among the nations.
  74. NIV Jeremiah 10:2 This is what the LORD says: "Do not learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by signs in the heavens, though the nations are terrified by them.
  75. NIV Jeremiah 31:21 "Set up road signs; put up guideposts. Take note of the highway, the road that you take. Return, Virgin Israel, return to your towns.
  76. NIV Jeremiah 32:20 You performed signs and wonders in Egypt and have continued them to this day, in Israel and among all mankind, and have gained the renown that is still yours.
  77. NIV Jeremiah 32:21 You brought your people Israel out of Egypt with signs and wonders, by a mighty hand and an outstretched arm and with great terror.
  78. NIV Jeremiah 44:29 "'This will be the sign to you that I will punish you in this place,' declares the LORD, 'so that you will know that my threats of harm against you will surely stand.'
  79. NIV Ezekiel 4:3 Then take an iron pan, place it as an iron wall between you and the city and turn your face toward it. It will be under siege, and you shall besiege it. This will be a sign to the people of Israel.
  80. NIV Ezekiel 12:6 Put them on your shoulder as they are watching and carry them out at dusk. Cover your face so that you cannot see the land, for I have made you a sign to the Israelites."
  81. NIV Ezekiel 12:11 Say to them, 'I am a sign to you.'"As I have done, so it will be done to them. They will go into exile as captives.
  82. NIV Ezekiel 20:12 Also I gave them my Sabbaths as a sign between us, so they would know that I the LORD made them holy.
  83. NIV Ezekiel 20:20 Keep my Sabbaths holy, that they may be a sign between us. Then you will know that I am the LORD your God."
  84. NIV Ezekiel 24:24 Ezekiel will be a sign to you; you will do just as he has done. When this happens, you will know that I am the Sovereign LORD.'
  85. NIV Ezekiel 24:27 At that time your mouth will be opened; you will speak with him and will no longer be silent. So you will be a sign to them, and they will know that I am the LORD."
  86. NIV Daniel 4:2 It is my pleasure to tell you about the miraculous signs and wonders that the Most High God has performed for me.
  87. NIV Daniel 4:3 How great are his signs, how mighty his wonders! His kingdom is an eternal kingdom; his dominion endures from generation to generation.
  88. NIV Daniel 6:27 He rescues and he saves; he performs signs and wonders in the heavens and on the earth. He has rescued Daniel from the power of the lions."
  89. NIV Matthew 12:38 Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from you."
  90. NIV Matthew 12:39 He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
  91. NIV Matthew 16:1 The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him by asking him to show them a sign from heaven.
  92. NIV Matthew 16:3 and in the morning, 'Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.' You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times.
  93. NIV Matthew 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Jesus then left them and went away.
  94. NIV Matthew 24:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"
  95. NIV Matthew 24:24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
  96. NIV Matthew 24:30 "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth1 will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
  97. NIV Mark 8:11 The Pharisees came and began to question Jesus. To test him, they asked him for a sign from heaven.
  98. NIV Mark 8:12 He sighed deeply and said, "Why does this generation ask for a sign? Truly I tell you, no sign will be given to it."
  99. NIV Mark 13:4 "Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?"
  100. NIV Mark 13:22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
  101. NIV Mark 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
  102. NIV Mark 16:20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.
  103. NIV Luke 1:22 When he came out, he could not speak to them. They realized he had seen a vision in the temple, for he kept making signs to them but remained unable to speak.
  104. NIV Luke 1:62 Then they made signs to his father, to find out what he would like to name the child.
  105. NIV Luke 2:12 This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger."
  106. NIV Luke 2:34 Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: "This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against,
  107. NIV Luke 11:16 Others tested him by asking for a sign from heaven.
  108. NIV Luke 11:29 As the crowds increased, Jesus said, "This is a wicked generation. It asks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.
  109. NIV Luke 11:30 For as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites, so also will the Son of Man be to this generation.
  110. NIV Luke 21:7 "Teacher," they asked, "when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?"
  111. NIV Luke 21:11 There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.
  112. NIV Luke 21:25 "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea.
  113. NIV Luke 23:8 When Herod saw Jesus, he was greatly pleased, because for a long time he had been wanting to see him. From what he had heard about him, he hoped to see him perform a sign of some sort.
  114. NIV John 2:11 What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him.
  115. NIV John 2:18 The Jews then responded to him, "What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?"
  116. NIV John 2:23 Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Festival, many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name.
  117. NIV John 3:2 He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him."
  118. NIV John 4:48 "Unless you people see signs and wonders," Jesus told him, "you will never believe."
  119. NIV John 4:54 This was the second sign Jesus performed after coming from Judea to Galilee.
  120. NIV John 6:2 and a great crowd of people followed him because they saw the signs he had performed by healing the sick.
  121. NIV John 6:14 After the people saw the sign Jesus performed, they began to say, "Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world."
  122. NIV John 6:26 Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill.
  123. NIV John 6:30 So they asked him, "What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do?
  124. NIV John 7:31 Still, many in the crowd believed in him. They said, "When the Messiah comes, will he perform more signs than this man?"
  125. NIV John 9:16 Some of the Pharisees said, "This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath." But others asked, "How can a sinner perform such signs?" So they were divided.
  126. NIV John 10:41 and many people came to him. They said, "Though John never performed a sign, all that John said about this man was true."
  127. NIV John 11:47 Then the chief priests and the Pharisees called a meeting of the Sanhedrin. "What are we accomplishing?" they asked. "Here is this man performing many signs.
  128. NIV John 12:18 Many people, because they had heard that he had performed this sign, went out to meet him.
  129. NIV John 12:37 Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him.
  130. NIV John 19:20 Many of the Jews read this sign, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and the sign was written in Aramaic, Latin and Greek.
  131. NIV John 20:30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.
  132. NIV Acts 2:19 I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke.
  133. NIV Acts 2:22 "Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
  134. NIV Acts 2:43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles.
  135. NIV Acts 4:16 "What are we going to do with these men?" they asked. "Everyone living in Jerusalem knows they have performed a notable sign, and we cannot deny it.
  136. NIV Acts 4:30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus."
  137. NIV Acts 5:12 The apostles performed many signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon's Colonnade.
  138. NIV Acts 6:8 Now Stephen, a man full of God's grace and power, performed great wonders and signs among the people.
  139. NIV Acts 7:36 He led them out of Egypt and performed wonders and signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the wilderness.
  140. NIV Acts 8:6 When the crowds heard Philip and saw the signs he performed, they all paid close attention to what he said.
  141. NIV Acts 8:13 Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.
  142. NIV Acts 14:3 So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to perform signs and wonders.
  143. NIV Acts 15:12 The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them.
  144. NIV Romans 4:11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.
  145. NIV Romans 15:19 by the power of signs and wonders, through the power of the Spirit of God. So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ.
  146. NIV 1 Corinthians 1:22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom,
  147. NIV 1 Corinthians 14:22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers.
  148. NIV 2 Corinthians 12:12 I persevered in demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including signs, wonders and miracles.
  149. NIV Philippians 1:28 without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved-- and that by God.
  150. NIV 2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie,
  151. NIV Hebrews 2:4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.
  152. NIV Revelation 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
  153. NIV Revelation 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads.
  154. NIV Revelation 13:13 And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people.
  155. NIV Revelation 13:14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.
  156. NIV Revelation 15:1 I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues-- last, because with them God's wrath is completed.
  157. NIV Revelation 16:14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.
  158. NIV Revelation 19:20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

. . . . . . .
History of Latin 'miraculum'

Our English word miracle makes for an interesting word study where it would undoubtedly surprise many that there is no Greek word for our English miracle. the word was first employed in the Latin translations where its use was an honest attempt by the translators to help there readers to understand that a certain even was of God or not, but in the end it unfortunately has cause more harm than good, but as I said, that was not the intent of the translators.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=miracle
Miracle (n.)
mid-12c., "a wondrous work of God," from Old French miracle (11c.) "miracle, story of a miracle, miracle play," from Latin miraculum "object of wonder" (in Church Latin, "marvelous event caused by God"), from mirari "to wonder at, marvel, be astonished," figuratively "to regard, esteem," from mirus "wonderful, astonishing, amazing," earlier *smeiros, from PIE *smei- "to smile, laugh" (cognates: Sanskrit smerah "smiling," Greek meidan "to smile," Old Church Slavonic smejo "to laugh;" see smile (v.)).

From mid-13c. as "extraordinary or remarkable feat," without regard to deity. Replaced Old English wundortacen, wundorweorc. The Greek words rendered as miracle in the English bibles were semeion "sign," teras "wonder," and dynamis "power," in Vulgate translated respectively as signum, prodigium, and virtus. The Latin word is the source of Spanish milagro, Italian miracolo.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: mark kennedy
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,940
1,064
✟250,347.00
Faith
Christian
There is a common misconception that the Office of Healings that the Father established for the local congregation (1Cor 12:28) functions the same way as the Apostles did when they were functioning under "Signs and Wonders", the two are not one and the same.

There is no biblical evidence that there are 2 type of healing; one being the miraculous healings that were performed by the disciples, and the other a lesser gift of healing which people claim to have today whereby the healer regularly fails to heal or only seems able to heal unproveable or psychosomatic illnesses (backaches, depression, etc).

The healings of the NT were undoubted miracles performed at the touch or command of a person who had been given that ability. They were instantaneous and complete healings of paraplegics, blindness from birth, deafness and the like. There were never any failures to heal.

Along with the ability to perform miracles and and speak in tongues, healing was a sign gift given to the disciples to authenticate the new gospel ministry:

Mark 16:17-20 "And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well........20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it."

These signs (the ability to heal, perform miracles, and speak in tongues) were gifts of the Holy Spirit (ie the same gifts listed in 1 Cor 12):

Heb 2:4 "God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will."

Notice the past tenses in Heb 2:4 and Mark 16:20. These gifts are not in operation today. People having such abilities were limited to short periods of history when God needed to authenticate their message. There have been 3 such periods in biblical history: the time of Moses and Joshua to authenticate and introduce the writing of the Pentateuch, the time of Elijah and Elisha to introduce in the age of the Prophets, and Jesus and the Apostles to authenticate the Gospel and New Testament. People saw the miracles, were amazed, recognized they were from God and listened to the message. After the message and their messengers were authenticated the 'fireworks' ceased.

It is patently obvious that the gifts touted in the charismatic/pentecostal movement in the few decades are not the same as the New Testament gifts, therefore the continuationist has to invent the idea that there is a 2nd inferior type of the gift which is untaught in scripture. Not only is there an 2nd type of healer who routinely fails to heal, there is also a 2nd type of prophet who regularly makes errors and false prophecies from their feelings, and a 2nd type of tongues that is nothing more than speaking random syllables. There is no biblical evidence for the existence of any of these inferior types of gift.

The only healings described in the NT are instantaneous, 100% successful, 100% of the time. The only prophecies in the NT are from God speaking to the prophet and are totally infallible. The only tongues in the NT is the miraculous ability to speak a foreign language without learning it.

According to James 5 it seems that there can be times where someones sickness may be the result of a specific sin where they may only need to confess their sin to receive their healing. One of the obvious reasons that we are told to go to the Elders for prayer is that one of the Elders may already be aware of some potential sin which he can raise and have the issue dealt with; whereas another Elder might need to be functioning within the word of knowledge where the Spirit of God might reveal the sin so that it can be dealt with.

James 5 is nothing to do with the gift of healing. It makes no mention of it. James doesn't say call for the person with the gift of healing. He says call for people to pray for the sick. That is what we are to do today - pray, not send them to a faith healer - and if it is the Lords will they will be healed.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,333.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
After my first post sometime last year in response to the OP, I have come to the conclusion that intellectual debate about the issue will not solve anything. What does prove the point that the supernatural signs wonders and miracles do happen today is the evidence that is presented by the thousands of people who have either experienced healing and deliverance themselves, or who have witnessed real miracles of healing in their family members, friends, and others as the result of ministry.

You can see actual healings taking place when you view video clips on Youtube. I have a DVD of 130 people who testify to healing of incurable conditions given up by medical experts. These people are not lying. Why should they? They are a cross section of ordinary people who were ministered to and instantly healed by the power of God.

So all these prove conclusively that the ministry of miracle healing happens today; and has actually been happening for at least the last 300 years. John Wesley had 250 genuine healings during his ministry. Even his horse got instantly healed of lameness. Was the horse lying when it told Wesley, "I am healed!"? ^_^^_^^_^^_^
Guy Bevington, a Methodist Holiness evangelist testifies of many genuine healings during his circuit preaching. I had a friend during the 1960s who was Smith Wigglesworth's pianist while he was in New Zealand. He witnessed to many genuine healings of actual incurable medical conditions.

The problem with religious prejudice is that even though the evidence is right in front of people, they will refuse to believe it. The Pharisees and Chief Priest acknowledged that the healing of the blind man by Jesus was a genuine miracle, yet they plotted to kill Jesus nevertheless because the miracle threatened their credibility in the eyes of the people.

There is a lying spirit in our modern day that influences church leaders and teachers that signs. wonders and miracles ceased at the end of the Apostolic Age. This lying spirit is supernatural in itself and no amount of debate and apologetics in favour of continuance will overcome it. These church leaders and teachers need to have this lying demon cast away from them and then they will no longer be blinded to the truth of modern day miracles.

The best weapon is the actual and powerful demonstration of the power of God in our modern day churches that are willing to believe that signs, wonders and miracles do take place today accompanying the preaching of the gospel. But even then, the lying spirit will continue to infect these blind guides and false shepherds. They will not acknowledge their blindness, and the lying spirit will not leave them because they invited it into their belief structures, and God will not force it to leave until the person who is infected starts praying and crying out to God for deliverance and freedom from it.

So, for that reason, the controversy over it and the false accusations against modern day believers of signs wonders and miracles being motivated by the devil, will continue.
 
Upvote 0

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,748
2,615
Livingston County, MI, US
✟199,349.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I would not dare saying Christians have a lying spirit.

"You can see actual healings taking place when you view video clips on Youtube. I have a DVD of 130 people who testify to healing of incurable conditions given up by medical experts. These people are not lying. Why should they?"

I have many people in cults and world religions make the same claims. In fact, Catholic Christians have video's of healing at sites related to Mary and their Saints.

Why did the Pentecostal Missionary Union ask Smith to resign?
Smith Wigglesworth: Disqualified?

Please explain,

quotes:

Wigglesworth prophesied a mighty restoration of the gifts of the Spirit and revival to start before the end of the twentieth Century. He is reputed to have said: ‘Australia you have been chosen by God for a great move of the Holy Spirit. This move of God will be the greatest move of God ever known in mankind’s history and will start towards the end of the 20th century and move into the 21st century. This move of God will start a great revival in Australia, spread throughout the whole world and usher in the second coming of Jesus. This will be the final revival before the coming of the Lord’.(1)

Despite all the wild unsubstantiated healing claims, Wigglesworth’s daughter, who assisted at his meetings, was never
healed of deafness. Wigglesworth also suffered for years with gallstones and later with Sciatica. Much has been written
about this man regarding claims of healings and miracles, but what did this man believe?

http://taministries.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Smith-Wigglesworth-The-Facts-v3.5.pdf

what about these other sick faith healers?
Sick Healers?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,333.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
I would not dare saying Christians have a lying spirit.

"You can see actual healings taking place when you view video clips on Youtube. I have a DVD of 130 people who testify to healing of incurable conditions given up by medical experts. These people are not lying. Why should they?"

I have many people in cults and world religions make the same claims. In fact, Catholic Christians have video's of healing at sites related to Mary and their Saints.

Why did the Pentecostal Missionary Union ask Smith to resign?
Smith Wigglesworth: Disqualified?

Please explain,

quotes:

Wigglesworth prophesied a mighty restoration of the gifts of the Spirit and revival to start before the end of the twentieth Century. He is reputed to have said: ‘Australia you have been chosen by God for a great move of the Holy Spirit. This move of God will be the greatest move of God ever known in mankind’s history and will start towards the end of the 20th century and move into the 21st century. This move of God will start a great revival in Australia, spread throughout the whole world and usher in the second coming of Jesus. This will be the final revival before the coming of the Lord’.(1)

Despite all the wild unsubstantiated healing claims, Wigglesworth’s daughter, who assisted at his meetings, was never
healed of deafness. Wigglesworth also suffered for years with gallstones and later with Sciatica. Much has been written
about this man regarding claims of healings and miracles, but what did this man believe?

http://taministries.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Smith-Wigglesworth-The-Facts-v3.5.pdf

what about these other sick faith healers?
Sick Healers?

Obviously you have never read Roberts Liardon's book of the complete teachings of Smith Wigglesworth. These are transcripts of all his sermons, that were given to Liardon by Wigglesworth's family. If you read just a few of those sermons you will know exactly what he believed and taught.

Wigglesworth was generally disliked during his life, especially by many religious leaders, so it is no surprised that some tried to discredit him. Wigglesworth never wrote an autobiography because he did not want to take the attention away from Christ. He never actually wrote anything. All the writing we have were taken from shorthand transcripts of his sermons. The reason he did not write about himself was that he did not feel the need to justify himself in face of the persecution he encountered in the same way that some modern ministries have justified themselves in print. Wigglesworth believed that Jesus would vindicate him.

I can understand how some would have been offended at him, because he was not polite to people, and often handled people roughly when he prayed for them. He said that it was not the people, but the devil who he was being rough with.

Concerning the healings. I had friends in Wellington during the 1960s who met Wigglesworth, one of whom was his pianist during his New Zealand meetings. They spoke very highly of him and attested that the healings and miracles they witnessed was totally genuine. The majority of the healings were checked by medical practitioners and confirmed as from God because the conditions were beyond medical help.

You see, I don't find your claims very credible because I have extensively read Wigglesworth's teaching throughout his life, and have had conversations with those who knew and ministered with him. This has more credibility for me than the views of a person who has never met Wigglesworth and has not read him very much, but seems to depending on articles about him.

Did you know that there were many movements involving the gifts of the Spirit and healing during the 1000 years that the Roman Catholic Church was dominant. Church historians have condemned these movements as heretical, but after reading through the court transcripts of the trials of the leaders of these movements, it has been discovered that these movements were so similar to modern evangelical and Charismatic movements so that one cannot tell them apart. We cannot get full information about these movements because the RCC destroyed all the writings that were produced by these movements. But important clues can be gained from the court transcripts which still exist in the Vatican today.

The point I am making here is that just because one religious group decides that another group or ministry is false and heretical, it doesn't mean that is the actual case. One researcher took the time and trouble to discover and show that these "heretical" groups were not heretical at all, but Bible based.
 
Upvote 0

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,748
2,615
Livingston County, MI, US
✟199,349.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Obviously you have never read Roberts Liardon's book of the complete teachings of Smith Wigglesworth. These are transcripts of all his sermons, that were given to Liardon by Wigglesworth's family. If you read just a few of those sermons you will know exactly what he believed and taught.

Are you speaking tof the same Liardon as this below?

Evangelical pastor Roberts Liardon temporarily stepped down from his Irvine-based ministry this week after admitting to a "short-term inappropriate sexual relationship."

Pastor Takes Leave After Admitting to 'Moral Failure'

I read the book on Smith here, https://annointing.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/wigglesworth-prayer-power-and-miracles.pdf It lacks historical varification.

Back to my questions please.

Why did the Pentecostal Missionary Union ask Smith to resign?
"Graham Jeffs, a solicitor from England who is now an elder at St. James Church in Colorado Springs, attended church less than a half-mile from where Wigglesworth lived and preached. He recently gave me copies of the hand written correspondence between Smith Wigglesworth and the leaders of the Pentecostal Missionary Union (PMU) written after Wigglesworth had been accused of misconduct by two separate women at the peak of his ministry career."

Please explain,

quotes:

Wigglesworth prophesied a mighty restoration of the gifts of the Spirit and revival to start before the end of the twentieth Century. He is reputed to have said: ‘Australia you have been chosen by God for a great move of the Holy Spirit. This move of God will be the greatest move of God ever known in mankind’s history and will start towards the end of the 20th century and move into the 21st century. This move of God will start a great revival in Australia, spread throughout the whole world and usher in the second coming of Jesus. This will be the final revival before the coming of the Lord’.(1)

Note: There have been other revivals since then, therefore his was not the final revival before the coming of the Lord.

Despite all the wild unsubstantiated healing claims, Wigglesworth’s daughter, who assisted at his meetings, was never healed of deafness. Wigglesworth also suffered for years with gallstones and later with Sciatica. Much has been written about this man regarding claims of healings and miracles, but what did this man believe?

http://taministries.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Smith-Wigglesworth-The-Facts-v3.5.pdf

what about these other sick faith healers?

quotes:

Doyle "Buddy" Harrison, Founder of Harrison House Books, son-in-law of Kenneth E. Hagin died Nov. 1998 of cancer. He was the founder of Faith Christian Fellowship, the WOF denomination. How could he have died of cancer? He was in the "faith movement" BEFORE Copeland and others . . .

0. E.W. Kenyon, Father of the Word of Faith Movement. One of the initial teachers of divine healing and it always being God's will to heal His children. Died in a coma brought on by a malignant tumor. Copeland teaches that Kenyon was sitting in a rocking chair, his daughter came into the room and Kenyon said "there's Jesus, good bye," and went to glory. This is a lie. He died from disease.

1. John Osteen, mega-church pastor in Houston - his wife, Dodie got liver cancer and through the mercy of God and medical attention survived. John Osteen is more sound today than when he initially began with the renewal movement, he is probably not as much a WOF teacher as he used to be.

2. Frederick K. Price, Word of Faith mega-church pastor in Los Angeles - his wife, Betty got cancer and was medically treated (chemo-therapy) and by the mercy of God was patched up."If you need a crutch upon or something to help you get along, then praise God, hobble along until you get your faith moving to the point that you don’t need a crutch." How Faith Works pp. 92-92
I guess after all the years of sitting under "anointed" faith teaching by one of the movements leading faith teachers was not enough for Fred’s wife - she needed a doctor after all.

3. Jamie Buckingham, Discipleship Movement & charismatic author - died of cancer. He was under a medical doctors care.

4. Charles Capps, Word of Faith teacher, teaches power of our words to create reality - his wife got cancer and was medically treated.

I don’t deny the existence of disease. I deny the right of that disease to exist in this body, because I’m the Body of Christ." The Tongue p. 43.I guess Chuck’s wife must have not spoken the right magic words to keep the cancer from her body.
5. John Wimber, Signs & Wonders Movement, author of "Power Healing," - just died from cancer. He too, was medically treated - no "power" healing for him, only chemo-therapy.
5a. Chris Wimber, GM of Vineyard Music died Feb 6, 1998 of melanoma cancer. Mahesh is supposed to have "healed" people of cancer and AIDS - yet there was no "healing" for Chris.

6. Mack Timberlake, Word of Faith pastor - suffering from throat cancer, getting medical attention.

7. R.W. Schambach, Faith Healer - got a quadruple heart bypass (from a real live human doctor)

"You don’t have any problems, all you need is faith in God."Maybe so, but isn't it nice that He has provided doctors too? Without them, R.W. would have long ago faced his judgment.
8. Dr. Hobart Freeman, Word of Faith teacher & pastor of Faith Assembly - over 90 people died in his church following his teaching and then Hobart died due to a medically treatable disease.
I personally respect Hobart & his misguided followers. They actually took the teachings of the WOF movement to their logical conclusion. They stood on the "promises" alone and believed in their doctrine enough to face painful deaths instead of refusing to deny what they believed. Hobart Freeman is the most chilling testimony of the complete bankruptcy of the WOF errors. If WOF teachings were true they would have certainly worked for Hobart and the 90+ people who died in "faith believing." (BTW - Hobart is a name NONE of the WOF'ers mention, he was too serious about the teachings).

9. Joyce Meyer, the fast rising Word of Faith female preacher. On Aug. 31, 1998 on her morning broadcast admitted that she had breast cancer and was MEDICALLY TREATED. I found her admission to be very interesting.

9. Prophet Keith Grayton, Prophetic Movement - died of the complications of AIDS He spoke at our Church in Detroit, and declared he was totally healed. He died a year or so later.

10. Kenneth Hagin, "father" of the Word of Faith Movement - sister died of cancer, (he wears glasses as does his son). Hagin’s great faith and special anointing could not keep her on the planet or his eyesight from growing dim.
10a. Hagin's sister died from cancer.
10b. Hagin's wife had to go to the hospital for an operation even though Jesus "appeared" to Hagin and gave him a special anointing to heal the sick (read I Believe In Visions). If people believe Hagin is anointed then they will be healed, I guess his own family members doubt his healing powers.

11. Robert Tilton, God's "profit" admitted he had to get special face-lifting surgery because of the danger of getting ink poisoning from laying on all the prayer requests he received. Why didn't he command healing . . .like he does for countless others over the airwaves?

1. Robert Tilton, Word of Faith Televangelist - 2 divorces, multiple law suits, caught in many lies, utters many false prophecies, uses unscrupulous means to garner millions from God's "gullible."

2. Peter Popoff, Televangelist - a proven fraud (read "The Faith Healers" by James Randi)

3. W.V. Grant, Televangelist - convicted felon for tax fraud, a divorcee.

4. Leroy Jenkins, Televangelist - convicted felon for arson & assault.

5. Jimmy Swaggert, Televangelist - adulterer, opulent lifestyle while crying broke on television.

6. Marilyn Hickey, Word of Faith teacher - shameless use of charismatic trinkets (blessed cornmeal, oils, cloths, seeds, coins, etc.).

7. Marjoe Gortner, came from 3 generations of Pentecostal preachers. He laid hands on multitudes to give them the "gift" of tongues. . . yet he himself was not saved. He admitted this publicly, and made a movie showing him in action. Unsaved, yet seeming to flow in the miraculous.

8. Jim Bakker, convicted felon. Jim & Tammy lived high off the hog for many years. Later they divorced, and in jail the Lord seems to have dealt with Jim and I think he has repented.

9. E.W. Kenyon, divorced his wife yet taught that faith is a law that works by another law, the law of love! We are told by WOF teachers that Kenyon was a man of faith and power - but how could his "god-kind-of-faith" been in operation if he could not even love his wife properly?

I have no reason to believe that these above have been made up.

In fact, you will see the same Cognitive Dissonance in Christian Science surrounding Mary Baker Eddy. Rarely, sources provided by a family are accurate. Historians like myself read such material with a critical eye and view it as faith history aka false history.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,333.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Are you speaking tof the same Liardon as this below?

Evangelical pastor Roberts Liardon temporarily stepped down from his Irvine-based ministry this week after admitting to a "short-term inappropriate sexual relationship."

Pastor Takes Leave After Admitting to 'Moral Failure'

I read the book on Smith here, https://annointing.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/wigglesworth-prayer-power-and-miracles.pdf It lacks historical varification.

Back to my questions please.

Why did the Pentecostal Missionary Union ask Smith to resign?
"Graham Jeffs, a solicitor from England who is now an elder at St. James Church in Colorado Springs, attended church less than a half-mile from where Wigglesworth lived and preached. He recently gave me copies of the hand written correspondence between Smith Wigglesworth and the leaders of the Pentecostal Missionary Union (PMU) written after Wigglesworth had been accused of misconduct by two separate women at the peak of his ministry career."

Please explain,

quotes:

Wigglesworth prophesied a mighty restoration of the gifts of the Spirit and revival to start before the end of the twentieth Century. He is reputed to have said: ‘Australia you have been chosen by God for a great move of the Holy Spirit. This move of God will be the greatest move of God ever known in mankind’s history and will start towards the end of the 20th century and move into the 21st century. This move of God will start a great revival in Australia, spread throughout the whole world and usher in the second coming of Jesus. This will be the final revival before the coming of the Lord’.(1)

Note: There have been other revivals since then, therefore his was not the final revival before the coming of the Lord.

Despite all the wild unsubstantiated healing claims, Wigglesworth’s daughter, who assisted at his meetings, was never healed of deafness. Wigglesworth also suffered for years with gallstones and later with Sciatica. Much has been written about this man regarding claims of healings and miracles, but what did this man believe?

http://taministries.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Smith-Wigglesworth-The-Facts-v3.5.pdf

what about these other sick faith healers?

quotes:

Doyle "Buddy" Harrison, Founder of Harrison House Books, son-in-law of Kenneth E. Hagin died Nov. 1998 of cancer. He was the founder of Faith Christian Fellowship, the WOF denomination. How could he have died of cancer? He was in the "faith movement" BEFORE Copeland and others . . .

0. E.W. Kenyon, Father of the Word of Faith Movement. One of the initial teachers of divine healing and it always being God's will to heal His children. Died in a coma brought on by a malignant tumor. Copeland teaches that Kenyon was sitting in a rocking chair, his daughter came into the room and Kenyon said "there's Jesus, good bye," and went to glory. This is a lie. He died from disease.

1. John Osteen, mega-church pastor in Houston - his wife, Dodie got liver cancer and through the mercy of God and medical attention survived. John Osteen is more sound today than when he initially began with the renewal movement, he is probably not as much a WOF teacher as he used to be.

2. Frederick K. Price, Word of Faith mega-church pastor in Los Angeles - his wife, Betty got cancer and was medically treated (chemo-therapy) and by the mercy of God was patched up."If you need a crutch upon or something to help you get along, then praise God, hobble along until you get your faith moving to the point that you don’t need a crutch." How Faith Works pp. 92-92
I guess after all the years of sitting under "anointed" faith teaching by one of the movements leading faith teachers was not enough for Fred’s wife - she needed a doctor after all.


3. Jamie Buckingham, Discipleship Movement & charismatic author - died of cancer. He was under a medical doctors care.

4. Charles Capps, Word of Faith teacher, teaches power of our words to create reality - his wife got cancer and was medically treated.

I don’t deny the existence of disease. I deny the right of that disease to exist in this body, because I’m the Body of Christ." The Tongue p. 43.I guess Chuck’s wife must have not spoken the right magic words to keep the cancer from her body.
5. John Wimber, Signs & Wonders Movement, author of "Power Healing," - just died from cancer. He too, was medically treated - no "power" healing for him, only chemo-therapy.
5a. Chris Wimber, GM of Vineyard Music died Feb 6, 1998 of melanoma cancer. Mahesh is supposed to have "healed" people of cancer and AIDS - yet there was no "healing" for Chris.

6. Mack Timberlake, Word of Faith pastor - suffering from throat cancer, getting medical attention.

7. R.W. Schambach, Faith Healer - got a quadruple heart bypass (from a real live human doctor)

"You don’t have any problems, all you need is faith in God."Maybe so, but isn't it nice that He has provided doctors too? Without them, R.W. would have long ago faced his judgment.
8. Dr. Hobart Freeman, Word of Faith teacher & pastor of Faith Assembly - over 90 people died in his church following his teaching and then Hobart died due to a medically treatable disease.
I personally respect Hobart & his misguided followers. They actually took the teachings of the WOF movement to their logical conclusion. They stood on the "promises" alone and believed in their doctrine enough to face painful deaths instead of refusing to deny what they believed. Hobart Freeman is the most chilling testimony of the complete bankruptcy of the WOF errors. If WOF teachings were true they would have certainly worked for Hobart and the 90+ people who died in "faith believing." (BTW - Hobart is a name NONE of the WOF'ers mention, he was too serious about the teachings).

9. Joyce Meyer, the fast rising Word of Faith female preacher. On Aug. 31, 1998 on her morning broadcast admitted that she had breast cancer and was MEDICALLY TREATED. I found her admission to be very interesting.

9. Prophet Keith Grayton, Prophetic Movement - died of the complications of AIDS He spoke at our Church in Detroit, and declared he was totally healed. He died a year or so later.

10. Kenneth Hagin, "father" of the Word of Faith Movement - sister died of cancer, (he wears glasses as does his son). Hagin’s great faith and special anointing could not keep her on the planet or his eyesight from growing dim.
10a. Hagin's sister died from cancer.
10b. Hagin's wife had to go to the hospital for an operation
even though Jesus "appeared" to Hagin and gave him a special anointing to heal the sick (read I Believe In Visions). If people believe Hagin is anointed then they will be healed, I guess his own family members doubt his healing powers.

11. Robert Tilton, God's "profit" admitted he had to get special face-lifting surgery because of the danger of getting ink poisoning from laying on all the prayer requests he received. Why didn't he command healing . . .like he does for countless others over the airwaves?

1. Robert Tilton, Word of Faith Televangelist - 2 divorces, multiple law suits, caught in many lies, utters many false prophecies, uses unscrupulous means to garner millions from God's "gullible."

2. Peter Popoff, Televangelist - a proven fraud (read "The Faith Healers" by James Randi)

3. W.V. Grant, Televangelist - convicted felon for tax fraud, a divorcee.

4. Leroy Jenkins, Televangelist - convicted felon for arson & assault.

5. Jimmy Swaggert, Televangelist - adulterer, opulent lifestyle while crying broke on television.

6. Marilyn Hickey, Word of Faith teacher - shameless use of charismatic trinkets (blessed cornmeal, oils, cloths, seeds, coins, etc.).

7. Marjoe Gortner, came from 3 generations of Pentecostal preachers. He laid hands on multitudes to give them the "gift" of tongues. . . yet he himself was not saved. He admitted this publicly, and made a movie showing him in action. Unsaved, yet seeming to flow in the miraculous.

8. Jim Bakker, convicted felon. Jim & Tammy lived high off the hog for many years. Later they divorced, and in jail the Lord seems to have dealt with Jim and I think he has repented.

9. E.W. Kenyon, divorced his wife yet taught that faith is a law that works by another law, the law of love! We are told by WOF teachers that Kenyon was a man of faith and power - but how could his "god-kind-of-faith" been in operation if he could not even love his wife properly?

I have no reason to believe that these above have been made up.

In fact, you will see the same Cognitive Dissonance in Christian Science surrounding Mary Baker Eddy. Rarely, sources provided by a family are accurate. Historians like myself read such material with a critical eye and view it as faith history aka false history.
The article about Roberts Liardon was written 16 years ago and he is still widely respected today. So your point there is pretty irrelevant.

About your examples, it shows that we have sinful bodies that will decay and die. Are you saying that every person from John Wesley's time until now who have testified to being healed is mistaken or lying?

Who cares about who died of what? I don't. And it doesn't stop me believing what Jesus and Paul said about healing being there for all until Jesus comes again.

You can believe what you like and I know that you will never see a person healed and even if a healing miracle happened right before your eyes your belief will make you deny it.

Personal experience and the testimonies of personal friends of healing miracles outweighs anything you have stated in your post. Those healing ministries didn't heal anyone. The Holy Spirit did, and having a healing ministry does not guarantee personal health. Even Paul got sick and he had a very powerful healing and deliverance ministry. Don't tell me that because Paul got sick that he was a fake too!!
 
Upvote 0

Biblicist

Full Gospel believer
Mar 27, 2011
7,023
992
Melbourne, Australia
✟43,594.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
I would not dare saying Christians have a lying spirit . . . . . . I have many people in cults and world religions make the same claims. In fact, Catholic Christians have video's of healing at sites related to Mary and their Saints . . . . . . . what about these other sick faith healers? Sick Healers?
When I was reading through Oscarr’s post (129) I thought that the use of ‘lying spirit’ might be a bit strong for a general forum, but still, I would have to agree with Oscarr that there are certainly more than a few influential celebrity ministries out there where their strong and aggressive form of hardcore-cessationism does seem to fit this type of descriptor; but this does not mean that all those who hold to the cessationist worldview are being deceived by lying spirits as I know that family ties, tradition and indoctrination can easily isolate many from the truth, be it with historical, political and cultural truth or with Biblical doctrine, which is something that we all become victim to from time to time as none of us are immune to these sort of strong influences.

Where I would differ from Oscarr is with ‘knowledge and experience’, which is how I am redefining what Oscarr actually said.

When I was saved as a teenager, this was within a cessationist congregation where my associations with other congregations and individual Christians were founded completely within the cessationist ethos; from my earliest recollections my only association with a Pentecostal or charismatic was with my few encounters with the Pentecostal wife of one of our members, where she attended the local AoG and her husband with our own.

So in spite of not having any associations with Pentecostals and where I did not even know of any Pentecostal ministries (pre-Satellite TV), it was after a number of months that I started to compare the church life that was around me with what I reading within the Scriptures with how the early Church seemed to be experiencing something that we were not. So my awakening came from my reading of the Scriptures and even though I could not make all that much sense out of what I was reading in places such as Acts and First Corinthians, I at least realised that something was not quite right with what was around me.

So after about twelve months when I started my first job and bought a car I started to buy and read books from our cities only Christian Bookshop at that time, where many of them were written by these Charismatics. So for me, it was the Word before experience though when I started to experience what apparently many millions were also experiencing, then the Word began to make more sense.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,333.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
When I was reading through Oscarr’s post (129) I thought that the use of ‘lying spirit’ might be a bit strong for a general forum,
Possibly, but I have never been known for pulling my punches during a debate. I got into trouble on one thread and got my post deleted because I didn't realise that one could cast out demons on CF! :)

I was brought up by a father who was a master debater. He was cunning. He would prod my brother and me until we started shouting at him. Then he would say that we had lost the argument because we raised our voices!

But I get passionate over some issues because there are so many misinformed folks saying rubbish that needs to be challenged. Using a softly softly approach can result in being fobbed off. Love sometimes has to be direct and can feel like the silver bullet. Doesn't Proverbs say that the wounds of a friend are better than the kisses of an enemy? Jesus called Peter Satan at one stage when Peter was trying to stop Him doing what He was sent here to do.


but still, I would have to agree with Oscarr that there are certainly more than a few influential celebrity ministries out there where their strong and aggressive form of hardcore-cessationism does seem to fit this type of descriptor; but this does not mean that all those who hold to the cessationist worldview are being deceived by lying spirits as I know that family ties, tradition and indoctrination can easily isolate many from the truth, be it with historical, political and cultural truth or with Biblical doctrine, which is something that we all become victim to from time to time as none of us are immune to these sort of strong influences.

Agreed

Where I would differ from Oscarr is with ‘knowledge and experience’, which is how I am redefining what Oscarr actually said.

I wonder if you misunderstood, or I might have expressed it unclearly. What I was countering was the difference between having person friends who were actually there when the miracles happened, and just reading about them in a book or in an article which said that there was no objective evidence that the miracles were actually genuine. Eye witnesses to events is the strongest evidence that can persuade a judge or jury in a court of law, so in the same vein, eye witnesses to miracles are more compelling evidence than people writing about them yet never having witnessed a miracle themselves.

When I pray for a woman with an acute back problem where she can hardly walk without pain and then right afterwards she tells me that the pain has gone, and a week later bounding out of her car, and over the street to me saying that she hasn't felt any pain all that week, is more compelling evidence against cessationist teaching than anything else I know.

When I was saved as a teenager, this was within a cessationist congregation where my associations with other congregations and individual Christians were founded completely within the cessationist ethos; from my earliest recollections my only association with a Pentecostal or charismatic was with my few encounters with the Pentecostal wife of one of our members, where she attended the local AoG and her husband with our own.

So in spite of not having any associations with Pentecostals and where I did not even know of any Pentecostal ministries (pre-Satellite TV), it was after a number of months that I started to compare the church life that was around me with what I reading within the Scriptures with how the early Church seemed to be experiencing something that we were not. So my awakening came from my reading of the Scriptures and even though I could not make all that much sense out of what I was reading in places such as Acts and First Corinthians, I at least realised that something was not quite right with what was around me.

Faith comes by hearing or reading the Word of God. Sounds like the Holy Spirit was speaking to you through the Word into your spirit, giving you the conviction which appeared like an uncomfortable feeling about what was around you.

So after about twelve months when I started my first job and bought a car I started to buy and read books from our cities only Christian Bookshop at that time, where many of them were written by these Charismatics. So for me, it was the Word before experience though when I started to experience what apparently many millions were also experiencing, then the Word began to make more sense.

Even though I was converted in a Pentecostal church, I became skeptical for a long time about healing because I saw so many being prayed for and not healed. After many years of that, I decided to settle the issue once and for all. I went to my favourite second hand Christian bookshop and bought hundreds of dollars worth of books on healing from all the major authors and healing ministries. I also went on Youtube and watched all the healing ministries and saw how they operated. Even watching the videos with people being healed in front of my eyes, I still had thoughts that these healings weren't real.

It was when I turned away from the experiences in my church that made me skeptical and decided to believe the gospels and acts, and then put that belief into practice, that results started to happen. There hasn't been a flood of healing in my ministry, but there have been enough to encourage me that healing is for today and Jesus can heal folks through my faith. The best results have been when I ministered healing in exactly the same way Jesus did.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Biblicist

Full Gospel believer
Mar 27, 2011
7,023
992
Melbourne, Australia
✟43,594.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Even though I was converted in a Pentecostal church, I became skeptical for a long time about healing because I saw so many being prayed for and not healed. After many years of that, I decided to settle the issue once and for all. I went to my favourite second hand Christian bookshop and bought hundreds of dollars worth of books on healing from all the major authors and healing ministries. I also went on Youtube and watched all the healing ministries and saw how they operated. Even watching the videos with people being healed in front of my eyes, I still had thoughts that these healings weren't real.

It was when I turned away from the experiences in my church that made me skeptical and decided to believe the gospels and acts, and then put that belief into practice, that results started to happen. There hasn't been a flood of healing in my ministry, but there have been enough to encourage me that healing is for today and Jesus can heal folks through my faith.
It seems that we were pretty much in the same situation. During my early years, having heard about as many variations and opinions on First Corinthians 12, 13 & 14 from various Sunday platforms I came to the realisation that most speakers had very little understanding of what they were speaking on. So in 1992 I began to sit down in an attempt to define what First Corinthians 12, 13 & 14 had to say on the Person and Ministry of the Holy Spirit through both the Church and the individual Believer.

Up until the late 1980’s most books that were written on the role of the Holy Spirit within the Church were based more on personal testimonies and even though they were often encouraging they lacked the necessary theological reflection that we need to be able to connect to the Scriptures. Since this time there has been an incredible about of Biblical commentary on the things of the Spirit which is what I have concentrated on over the past 15 years or so.

The best results have been when I ministered healing in exactly the same way Jesus did.
Here’s where we would disagree as I do not believe that we are called to minister in the same manner as Jesus did. But I will add in my bit over in the Charismatic forum where you opened up a thread on signs and wonders link.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,333.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
It seems that we were pretty much in the same situation. During my early years, having heard about as many variations and opinions on First Corinthians 12, 13 & 14 from various Sunday platforms I came to the realisation that most speakers had very little understanding of what they were speaking on. So in 1992 I began to sit down in an attempt to define what First Corinthians 12, 13 & 14 had to say on the Person and Ministry of the Holy Spirit through both the Church and the individual Believer.

Up until the late 1980’s most books that were written on the role of the Holy Spirit within the Church were based more on personal testimonies and even though they were often encouraging they lacked the necessary theological reflection that we need to be able to connect to the Scriptures. Since this time there has been an incredible about of Biblical commentary on the things of the Spirit which is what I have concentrated on over the past 15 years or so.


Here’s where we would disagree as I do not believe that we are called to minister in the same manner as Jesus did. But I will add in my bit over in the Charismatic forum where you opened up a thread on signs and wonders link.

I will open up a thread there. It will be an interesting discussion and I can share more fully on what I have learned.
 
Upvote 0

JohannineScholar

Active Member
Sep 4, 2016
157
22
USA
✟28,255.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I will open up a thread there. It will be an interesting discussion and I can share more fully on what I have learned.
Why is there so little if any of the supernatural gifts in the lives of Christians? I accept that they are found in church history, but they seem very seldom. Why aren't they around, even among Christians who believe in them and seek them? I have been to charismatic churches and it all strikes me as make-believe. People faking 'tongues' and giving 'words' that are from their own imagination. Anyone who will argue these things are real has no credibility (so if that's you--I'll disengage--because that is just wanting something to be real so much that you convince yourself it's real). But I am interested--if they are supposed to be normative, where is a church like the Corinthian one, where these things flow, where even unbelievers can confess that the real thing is at work?

People who want to argue that these things haven't ceased--I don't want to hear arguments--I want to see where these gifts are, if they are still here. Can you only tell me reports in books, or can you show me where these things actually happen?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Hillsage

One 4 Him & Him 4 all
Supporter
Jun 12, 2009
5,244
1,767
The land of OZ
✟322,350.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Why is there so little if any of the supernatural gifts in the lives of Christians? I accept that they are found in church history, but they seem very seldom. Why aren't they around, even among Christians who believe in them and seek them? I have been to charismatic churches and it all strikes me as make-believe. People faking 'tongues' and giving 'words' that are from their own imagination. Anyone who will argue these things are real has no credibility (so if that's you--I'll disengage--because that is just wanting something to be real so much that you convince yourself it's real). But I am interested--if they are supposed to be normative, where is a church like the Corinthian one, where these things flow, where even unbelievers can confess that the real thing is at work?

People who want to argue that these things haven't ceased--I don't want to hear arguments--I want to see where these gifts are, if they are still here. Can you only tell me reports in books, or can you show me where these things actually happen?
I might also ask where the church is, where people drop dead for lying to the Holy Spirit about how much money they're giving to the church, as happened to Ananias and Sapphira? And where are the churches where even Jesus Himself wouldn't do miracles because of their unbelief?

Matthew 13:58 And He/JESUS did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief.

Well, I suppose we do know where the unbelief churches are. All over America. :(
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0