If suicidals only knew

Godlovesmetwo · Nov 23, 2016

Tinker Grey said:
We can hope.

That's good.

ToBeLoved · Nov 24, 2016

LovebirdsFlying said:
As someone who has suffered from chronic depression since as young as six years old, and first started having "those" thoughts at age eight:

Someone early on in this thread spoke the truth, that people in a serious state of depression honestly believe others would be better off without them. Complicate matters with my physical disability. I cannot hold a job, and have been told twice by Vocational Rehabilitation that I am unemployable. I'm so disabled I can't even work through programs designed to find jobs for the disabled. So when I see my husband struggling to make ends meet, and I can't help him pay the bills, how useless do you think that makes me feel? It's worse when he comes home from work and then has to do a chore that was too much for me, and worst of all when some medical need of mine throws his carefully calculated budget out of whack. Are there times I think he'd be better off without this burden, and I wonder what in the world he sees in me? You bet there are. And when I am at my gloomiest, I can't even imagine that anyone would grieve for me. I actually picture them dancing and singing, "Ding Dong, the Witch is Dead."

Depression is not just feeling sorry for yourself because you didn't get asked to the prom. In fact, that's kind of an insult. That's comparing acne to advanced skin cancer. True depression is a malfunction of the brain. When the brain isn't working properly, thoughts won't make sense except to the person who is thinking them. But they are honestly believed.

One illustration I use is the concept of visual hallucinations. For example, let's say I am hallucinating and I see a snake on the floor in front of me. No way will you ever be able to convince me that there is no snake. What do you mean, there is no snake? I see a snake plain as day, doggone it, and you can't tell me I don't see it. What are you trying to do, mess with me or something? If you don't see something that is obviously right in front of you, then you must be the one who's nuts. Only when the brain chemicals quit misfiring, by whatever means it takes to accomplish that, will I stop seeing the snake. Depressive thoughts work the same way. Even though they are not accurate, they are just as real to the person with depression as that snake is to the person who is hallucinating.

Thank you for sharing. I have diagnosed clinical depression also. It is like hell on earth. People need to be educated it is due to our brains not acing endorphins not made by our bodies. A chemical imbalance.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BubbaJack · Jan 27, 2017

bettercallpaul said:
Only knew the fallout. the fallout of their suicide. The consequences short and long-term.
I think if you could show them a video of the future consequence, they'd change their mind. They'd see it from other people's point of view.

Meh. I wouldn't ask anyone else to continue their suffering just to save me a few days of soul-searching. People who kill themselves have reasons and they know their troubles better than anyone else.

Radrook · Jan 27, 2017

o

dysert said:
Someone attempting suicide is not in their right mind. They don't have the capacity to think rationally let alone abstractly. Now before you get to that point, it may be helpful to see things from outer space or from the POV of others, but once you've crossed the line, all that goes out the window. Your only goal is to relieve your suffering.

So to you consider an attempt at escaping what is deemed as unbearable suffering always irrational? I was once pinned under hundreds of pounds of pressure with my pubic bone bearing that weight against the edge of the step leading into a school building's basement area and I would have considered it merciful to have had such agony terminated at that moment by any means possible.

ToBeLoved · Jan 27, 2017

Radrook said:
o
So to you consider an attempt at escaping what is deemed as unbearable suffering always irrational? I was once pinned under hundreds of pounds of pressure with my pubic bone bearing that weight against the edge of the step leading into a school building's basement area and I would have considered it merciful to have had such agony terminated at that moment by any means possible.

Interesting perspective of a real life experience. Thanks for sharing.

I do agree that someone's pain both physically and or mentally cannot be measured by anyone else. That is why Jesus is the only perfect judge, because He knows the heart and the mind.

IMHO, judgement is a real problem in our churches. We need to be humble and loving when exercising any judgement. Judgement as in agape love is only for the better of the reciever. Agape is to do not for yourself at all, but only in the other's best interest. That sure changes how we see things if we have to check our own hearts before we open our mouths. :prayer:

It can make one repent for thinking selfish before one even acts upon it. I've done it.

Tull · Jan 27, 2017

Anyone who thinks they can't be in enough pain to want to die should check their ego which,if you're going to make somebody else's death all about you,might need to be checked.

Godlovesmetwo · Jan 27, 2017

Radrook said:
o
So to you consider an attempt at escaping what is deemed as unbearable suffering always irrational? I was once pinned under hundreds of pounds of pressure with my pubic bone bearing that weight against the edge of the step leading into a school building's basement area and I would have considered it merciful to have had such agony terminated at that moment by any means possible.

That is an interesting example. Thanks for sharing.

Godlovesmetwo · Jan 27, 2017

Tull said:
Anyone who thinks they can't be in enough pain to want to die should check their ego which,if you're going to make somebody else's death all about you,might need to be checked.

Mine is too vast, too gigantic. it would take too long to be fully checked out.

bhsmte · Jan 27, 2017

bettercallpaul said:
Only knew the fallout. the fallout of their suicide. The consequences short and long-term.
I think if you could show them a video of the future consequence, they'd change their mind. They'd see it from other people's point of view.

Watching; 'its a wonderful life' should be mandatory.

Radrook · Jan 27, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
Interesting perspective of a real life experience. Thanks for sharing.

I do agree that someone's pain both physically and or mentally cannot be measured by anyone else. That is why Jesus is the only perfect judge, because He knows the heart and the mind.

IMHO, judgement is a real problem in our churches. We need to be humble and loving when exercising any judgement. Judgement as in agape love is only for the better of the reciever. Agape is to do not for yourself at all, but only in the other's best interest. That sure changes how we see things if we have to check our own hearts before we open our mouths.

It can make one repent for thinking selfish before one even acts upon it. I've done it.

I totally agree! Let God be the judge since he is the only one who can properly assess al factors involved in the situation.

James 4:12

TagliatelliMonster · Jan 30, 2017

bettercallpaul said:
Only knew the fallout. the fallout of their suicide. The consequences short and long-term.
I think if you could show them a video of the future consequence, they'd change their mind. They'd see it from other people's point of view.

I think suicide is far to broad a concept to make such generalised statements.

As always, there's a lot of different cases out there.

BubbaJack · Jan 30, 2017

Wayholka said:
I've attempted suicide four times in my life and in my own mind, I'm just expediting my trip to Heaven after suffering years of abuse, mental illness and a lack of any hope in the world. I just wanted to end all of that regardless of what anyone else demanded of me. There was one point in my life where it was either commit suicide or bring a gun to school. I figured it would have been the lesser evil to kill myself and go more quietly.

Those who say suicide is selfish has obviously never been to that point of suffering. I think it's just plain cruel that someone has to threaten you with Hellfire to motivate you to keep on living in order to suffer some more.

Suicide is not a black and white issue.

Well said!

BubbaJack · Jan 30, 2017

It's different when you get older. That vast horizon you knew as a younger person gets more and more narrow; health and financial issues begin to manifest and take on greater importance. The things you kvetched about while younger seem ridiculous (did I really stress out over that bag of blood and bones with the great hair?) Eventually one may see life as just drudgery, with varying degrees of pain depending on the person. This whole idea that there is always hope and that the suicidal are simply mistaken in their assessment of things is not for those wishing to die; it's for everyone else, to convince themselves that life is a good thing. Why would anyone want to leave Paradise?

Today I surprised myself. I suddenly had the worst heartburn ever, but I also thought that it might have been a heart attack. Just a few years ago I would have drove to the ER, but not today. I wasn't concerned at all about dying. Not a bit.

Godlovesmetwo · Jan 30, 2017

BubbaJack said:
Eventually one may see life as just drudgery, with varying degrees of pain depending on the person. This whole idea that there is always hope and that the suicidal are simply mistaken in their assessment of things is not for those wishing to die; it's for everyone else, to convince themselves that life is a good thing. Why would anyone want to leave Paradise?

that is well-expressed. And what it must be like for a lot of people. I sometimes feel the same to be honest. But in my case, I've got a loyal partner and a smiling dog. I just couldn't let them down. I have to hang in there for their sake too. I'm lucky . not everyone is in such a fortunate situation as me, I admit.

Godlovesmetwo · Jan 30, 2017

Imagine if there was an easy way of exiting. "I'm tired of life, I'm out of here." Everyone accepts your decision and says farewell, maybe at a farewell party maybe not. You go to a room where a GP gives you an injection, you fall asleep forever. No pain. Easy.
That is assisted suicide. Would you like to see that available in your country?
I wouldn't. it is for open for abuse.
We are on this earth for other people, not just ourselves. That might sound trite but I believe it to be true.

ToBeLoved · Feb 1, 2017

bettercallpaul said:
Imagine if there was an easy way of exiting. "I'm tired of life, I'm out of here." Everyone accepts your decision and says farewell, maybe at a farewell party maybe not. You go to a room where a GP gives you an injection, you fall asleep forever. No pain. Easy.
That is assisted suicide. Would you like to see that available in your country?
I wouldn't. it is for open for abuse.
We are on this earth for other people, not just ourselves. That might sound trite but I believe it to be true.

Maybe that is why God gave human beings an innate fear of death.

So there wouldn't be an easy way, otherwise people would just be off'ing themselves like there was no tomorrow.

I think death scares the heck out of most of us and the unknown.

Radrook · Feb 1, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
Maybe that is why God gave human beings an innate fear of death.

So there wouldn't be an easy way, otherwise people would just be off'ing themselves like there was no tomorrow.

I think death scares the heck out of most of us and the unknown.

True, and most who appear to not fear it are those who don't really believe in death. Instead they imagine themselves transferring over to another plane of life. That's why we had the Kamikazes during WWII and we have terrorists who sacrifice themselves as if fearless of death when all they are believing in is an immediate transfer to some paradise which they are earning via their suicide..

bhsmte · Feb 1, 2017

Radrook said:
True, and most who appear to not fear it are those who don't really believe in death. Instead they imagine themselves transferring over to another plane of life. That's why we had the Kamikazes during WWII and we have terrorists who sacrifice themselves as if fearless of death when all they are believing in is an immediate transfer to some paradise which they are earning via their suicide..

What do you believe will happen to you when you die?

Received · Feb 2, 2017

bettercallpaul said:
Only knew the fallout. the fallout of their suicide. The consequences short and long-term.
I think if you could show them a video of the future consequence, they'd change their mind. They'd see it from other people's point of view.

That would definitely sway a good portion, but appealing to reason isn't quite exclusively how suicide works. I mean, you can sometimes dramatically temper or even (over time) eradicate the depression (or anxiety) that underlies one's suicidality (thereby kicking off the suicidality with it) by appealing to cognitions and changing them, which therapists know by the term "cognitive restructuring". So pointing out to them how their suicidal act would affect others can be a way of using reason to help them stay around longer, but in the vast majority of cases this will probably make the suicidal person feel even worse with guilt and/or shame.

And then you also have the consideration that suicide is a way out of suffering that's perceived to be without end, or patterns itself in such a way where the gasps for air allowed between smashes of debilitating depression aren't worth the trouble. There comes a point when you can't argue with that logic -- when the person tries all treatments (which usually means they've only tried the conventional ones, which are usually a failure for suicidal people) -- and still feels suffocated to the point that taking the leap into death is the only perceived viable option left given the level of suffocation the suicidal person is feeling.

Sometimes the world is just too much. I'm not justifying suicide, but simply recognizing finitude. To think otherwise -- that each person is always capable of overcoming his situation -- is to implicitly blame them for not showing impossible strength they're incapable of showing, being human beings as they are.

Also, putting all the responsibility of the person ignores the institutional and other pressures -- including with us, the non-suicidal, and our obligation to be there for the suicidal -- that play into making a person suicidal. We have to look there, and "there" is a big area (encompassing things from diet, proper use of antidepressant medications [no more SSRI worship, consider medications like thyroid hormone/T3, norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors, dopamine agonists, etc.], proper social support [again implicates us, the non-suicidal], proper political-economic institutions which create levels of socioeconomic pressure or lack thereof, etc.), in addition to putting reasonable responsibility on the suicidal person.

teresa · Feb 2, 2017

This thread is a great example of members utilizing decorum with an often painful and difficult topic to discuss.

Well done.

If suicidals only knew

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