Could Someone Explain Calvinism?

Monk Brendan said:

Sorry, but I like a liturgical service, something that most Protestants will have nothing to do with.

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Being Arminian has nothing to do with being liturgical or not.

Monk Brendan said:

He wanted us to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune for our own growth in Him

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To be or not to be, that was the real choice our progenitors made in the Garden, was it not? (Genesis 2:17) Clearly, they chose poorly! As a result, we are "begotten" in their tarnished image (not "created" in God's perfect image), and that only because of God's choice to be merciful and exceedingly gracious towards us (otherwise the entire human race would have consisted of Adam & Eve alone).

We suffer and die because of sin (i.e. Romans 5:12), but death, decay, and suffering were not part of God's original plan for us or for our first parents (who were both created "upright" and in His image .. i.e. Genesis 1:26-27; Ecclesiastes 7:29). As for their progeny, we were just an apple bite away from God's original plan for us. God did not intend for any of us to "suffer"

Monk Brendan said:

Where is that assurance? You can't tell me that there is a single Christian of a Calvinistic thought that has NOT had a moment of doubt.

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Hi MB, the Bible tells us, directly and indirectly, that God wants His children to have an assurance of salvation (cf John 5:24; Philippians 1:6; Hebrews 7:25; i.e. 1 John 5:13). He also commands us, through the pen of St. Paul, to "test ourselves" regularly to make sure that we are in the faith .. 2 Corinthians 13:5. He wants us to know, yes

Assurance cannot be understood as an absolute certainty or ironclad guarantee from God (as if those who have it never doubt their salvation*), plus we know that there are MANY among us who "believe" they are Christians, but they are not and never were .. i.e. Matthew 7:22-23. God intends that His elect, His children, should have assurance however (of our salvation/of His enduring love for us), since He clearly tells us that NONE of those He draws and gives to His Son will be lost .. John 6:37-40, 44.

Having "assurance" gives us the confidence that we are His (and thereby the confidence to act in faith and do the work He's called us to), come what may, because we 'know' that He will continue the great work that He began in us and see us through this life to Glory

Yours in Christ,
David

*Our assurance, unlike our "salvation", is something that often ebbs and flows with our walk, IOW, with where we are "in Him" at any given moment.

Monk Brendan said:

Okay, let me say it like this. I am an Eastern Catholic, I follow the theology of the early Church Fathers, so of whom were around 1500-1800 years ago, long before Calvin or Luther, or Armin, or anyone else in the Reformed movement.

That theology is summed up in the Nicene Creed. Read it, and you will understand.

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"Calvinism" is also rightly known as "Augustinianism" (as I mentioned earlier in this thread). Calvin said there was really nothing that he taught that was not taught first by St. Augustine more than a millennium before he was born.

Catholics hold to the Nicene Creed and that's good Guess what, so do Calvinists Maybe we should choose to look at all the places where we agree for a change (instead of always trying to prove how far apart we are ).

Yours and His,
David

Episaw said:

Calvinism was the product of John Calvin, who believed that God chooses who will be saved according to his foreknowledge so he does not attempt to save those who will not be saved because of their rejection of his son Jesus again according to his foreknowledge.

This is possible because God knows everything from alpha to omega.

The other fact is you can't save someone who does not want to be saved and the scripture is clear that there are those who are going to reject Christ regardless.

So in this respect, Calvinism is not so strange. Take away the foreknowledge of God and you have a different story entirely.

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This is not Calvinism. This is what is known as Molinism.

Calvinism would not base God's choice on his foreknowledge of events (in the sense of knowing beforehand), but rather his foreknowledge of people (loving those he would bring to life in Christ).

God's choosing in Calvinism is not passive (does not depend upon what He sees other would do), it is active (is the cause of the redeemed being born again).

Monk Brendan said:

What can I say? “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” JOHN 3:16 (KJV)

That is the whole world, and all that are in it (i.e. EVERYBODY).

Jesus did not come down from heaven, live a holy life, preach the Good News, then suffer and die for a handful of people. He died for ever person that has lived, that live now, and that will live.

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John 3:16 is often misunderstood. First of all, there is no "whosoever" in the Greek. The word "whosoever" should actually be rendered "all the believing ones." The correct understanding of John 3:16 has to do with God's purpose for sending the Son, not how he brings about salvation.



In other words, the reason God sent his Son was so that the believing ones would be saved. So there is particularity in God's purpose for sending His Son. It doesn't say to save every individual. He was sent to save believers.

The reason the passage says that God loved the world was to strike down the notion that God loved the Jews only. Remember that the passage this comes in is the passage in which Nicodemus (a leader of the Jews) is taught by Christ how one is born again (namely that it is the Spirit's work). Jesus was telling him that the Spirit does as he wills and brings life (makes born again) to whom he chooses. No one knows why (the purpose) he chooses who he chooses (where he goes), but you can perceive his work (like the wind).

Jesus then goes on to tell Nicodemus that he must be lifted up (crucified) for the purpose of the believing to have eternal life.

John 3:15 -
"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that all the believing (πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων) will in Him have eternal life."

Monk Brendan said:

Where is that assurance? You can't tell me that there is a single Christian of a Calvinistic thought that has NOT had a moment of doubt. As an Eastern Christian, I pray, I hope that my life has been centered enough on Him to make it into heaven. Even if I have to take the lowest place in heaven, polishing the streets of gold, I will be content.

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I have doubts sometimes, definitely, but then I remember that my salvation depends solely on Christ's work and I trust him to finish the work he began in me. Solus Christus in order that Soli Deo Gloria.

Monk Brendan said:

Where is that assurance? You can't tell me that there is a single Christian of a Calvinistic thought that has NOT had a moment of doubt. As an Eastern Christian, I pray, I hope that my life has been centered enough on Him to make it into heaven. Even if I have to take the lowest place in heaven, polishing the streets of gold, I will be content.

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Hey, I'm just here asking questions. I've tried to understand Calvinism from a Calvinist pov for years. Even when I was in such denominations I couldn't accept certain things about it.

I'm Eastern Orthodox, and quite comfortably and happily so. I am finally home. So my answers about assurance would be a bit different from Calvinism in some cases.

But I appreciate what a poster replied earlier to my question on that. I do understand the witness of the Holy Spirit.

Monk Brendan said:

While I have dipped my toe in the Assemblies of God, and have sat through a few Baptist services, I don't get the whole idea of God creating UN-elected people. I mean, if He loves everyone, wouldn't He want all of us to live with Him in heaven? I know that there are several passages in the Bible about election. But it still seems to me that God still loves everyone, and wants all of us to be in heaven with us.

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I see it as 'salvation resting on the Lord' not on anything I have done
Jesus said no man comes to me unless the Father draws him

Everyone deserved justice
God gives mercy to who He wants

Monk Brendan said:

While I have dipped my toe in the Assemblies of God, and have sat through a few Baptist services, I don't get the whole idea of God creating UN-elected people. I mean, if He loves everyone, wouldn't He want all of us to live with Him in heaven? I know that there are several passages in the Bible about election. But it still seems to me that God still loves everyone, and wants all of us to be in heaven with us.

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24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

God knows the end from the beginning, and therefore knows who will be saved and who will not, but He does not have us come into this world pre-programmed for one or the other outcomes (Calvanistic predestination). He gives everyone a free choice, and it is the exercise of that free choice which determines the fate of every one of us ...

Jesus taught "whosoever" - that means "anyone" ...

Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Mt 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

and other verses of Jesus own words. But now possibly the best known verse of Scripture, in its context ...

John 3
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: ...

There will be the majority who never chose to accept God's free gift of salvation, but that is their God-given choice. he has not created two different arms of humanity - one destined to be saved, and one destined to be lost.

Albeit a short, oversimplified reply, I pray it will help someone.

Monk Brendan said:

Okay, let me say it like this. I am an Eastern Catholic, I follow the theology of the early Church Fathers, so of whom were around 1500-1800 years ago, long before Calvin or Luther, or Armin, or anyone else in the Reformed movement.

That theology is summed up in the Nicene Creed. Read it, and you will understand.

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As an ex-Roman Catholic I understand the theology of the church fathers quite well. Arminian theology is partly based upon the theology of the early church fathers and is in agreement with Eastern Orthodoxy, and Eastern Catholic churches for the most part. That is all I have been saying thus far, and you have been misunderstanding my meaning.

Monk Brendan said:

but He will not mess with our free will

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Simply not true.

Joseph's brothers, Pharaoh, Cyrus, Lydia are examples of how God overrides people's will. We have choices that we make, but those choices are never greater than God's sovereign decree.

Monk Brendan said:

You see? I am not allowed a free will, under the laws of Calvin. Without free will I am just a meat robot, going through the motions that God has planned from the foundation of the earth.

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You did not self create. No, you are not just a robot, but you only have ability to act in accordance with your nature.

Monk Brendan said:

He is the most important person in my life. And I serve Him out of love, not out of fear, not because I am a meat robot, but because God loved me first, and made me with free will, capable of choosing to love and be loved by God. Calvin's theology has nothing to do with that.

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You have a great misunderstanding of Calvinism.

Monk Brendan said:

You can't point to a single person, from Pope St John Paul the Great down to yourself that, once "saved" have always been able to resist temptation, and have never let an unkind thought cross their mind.

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Being saved or having the assurance of being saved does not mean that a person does not fall into sin. I have assurance that I am saved, not because of something that is in me of my own volition or something I do, but about what Jesus Christ has done.

Catholicism can not grant you assurance, that is true, with the endless treadmill of repetitive bloodless sacrifice of the Mass.

Jesus Christ is the one who grants assurance, not Catholicism, not some Pope, no one else but Christ.

Monk Brendan said:

Why do you deny that we are made in His image and likeness, and because He has free will, then we have it too?

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I never said anything of the sort.

An image is never identical to the original. Just because we are made in the image of God does not mean that we perfectly share every single one of His attributes. We have not eternally existed. We are not omniscient. We are not omnipresent. We are not infallible. We are not immutable. We have never created everything from nothing. We do not have autonomous free will.

It's ideally, subjectively about confidence in God's sovereignty and sanctification. But it sometimes comes down to megalomania and moralism (much like Islam).

Lutheranism isn't perfect either, sometimes it just revels in mindless absurdity, esp. in fundamentalist forms.