No, it is your side of the argument that contradicts scripture correctly understood. No, I don't watch fiction: sorry.
What does it prove that saints suffer by the Beast? After the pretrib rapture millions will turn to Jesus and there will be a new group of "saints."
The 144,000 are in heaven. You just have not understood that yet. The Wrath of God begins with the last verse of the 6th seal. The rapture will take place before that. Did you not understand the 5th seal? They are the martyr of the church age, and they are asking God "HOW LONG" before their murders will be judged.
We know now that the church age is the age of grace, and judgment will not come until AFTER the church age. Read closely the answer they are given. They are told they must wait until the VERY LAST martyr has been killed as they have been killed - as CHURCH AGE martyrs. In other words, they must wait for the pretrib rapture that will end the church age. How interesting then that the very next verse is the 6th seal and the wrath of God beginning.
The rapture will take place between the 5th and 6th seal, and a moment before the earthquake of the 6th seal. It will be pretrib and prewrath.
John 17 is not about the end, it is about the church age. John 14 tells us He will take us to the homes He has prepared for us. OF COURSE God can protect us from trials during the church age. But the truth is, we won't be here for His wrath.
So what? The rapture will be a ONE TIME event. Lot does not fit. But if you look, lot was REMOVED from where God's wrath came. What? You imagine God will rapture everyone in trouble during the church age? No, the rapture comes ONCE for the church.
You read that wrong. King James fault, not yours.
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [the day of the Lord] shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
(several of the first translations into English render it so)
There will certainly be a departing first: the rapture. Please note that in 2 thes. 2:3b the man of sin IS REVEALED. Yet, we read in verse 6 and again in verses 7 & 8 that he CANNOT be revealed until the one restraining him is "taken out of the way."
Therefore, the "apostasia" of verse 3 must be the same as the restrainer in verses 6, 7, and 8. With your theory, a "falling away" (from what Paul did not specify) must then be the one restraining being "taken out of the way."
Is there anyway you can picture a falling away (an evil thing) restraining the man of sin (another evil)? Can you equate a "falling away" with "taken out of the way?" I cannot. But I can certainly equate a departing (the rapture) with a restraining force being "taken out of the way."
Well, if you have not found it yet, it is very unlikely you will. But He comes in 1 Thes. 4:7 and He comes again in Rev. 19. These are not the same comings.
Yes, so far you are right, "at the Lord's coming." I agree so far, for it is scripture. You are mistaken on the trumpets. Paul's "last trump" is the last trumpet of a certain group of trumpet sounds, such as on the feast of trumpets. It is NOT the 7th trumpet of Revelation, nor is it the same trumpet of Matthew 24. Sorry, but Matthew 24 and Luke 21 is not about the church. It is pointed straight at Israel. After all, Jesus said He was sent only to Israel.
When Paul got the revelation of the rapture, he said it was a MYSTERY. It could not be a mystery if it was previously written. Did you ever notice where the gathering in Matthew 24 is gathering FROM? Perhaps you should go look. The rapture of the church is a gathering from EARTH.
WRONG!
There is a CHIEF resurrection that is for all the righteous: Jesus was the firstfruits of this first and chief of resurrections. The rapture of the church will be the second group. The 144,000 will be the next, and finally the Old Testament saints will be last. All are part of the "first" or chief resurrection. The ONLY other resurrection is called "the second death" resurrection. It is for the damned.
Wow! You really need to learn to correctly divide the word of God. Yes, certainly during the church age we bring people to God. But our job ends with the pretrib rapture.
This does NOT leave the earth with no witness: the 144,000 will be his witnesses during the first half of the week, and the TWO witnesses will be there for the second half.
Do you understand, the 70th week is for DANIEL'S people, not the church! Go back to Daniel 9 and read it.
Sorry, it is not me that is twisting. OF COURSE there are saints in Revelation. The moment after the rapture removes the church pretrib, there will be millions more that turn to God. And of course there will be many Jews and Hebrews still on the earth that WILL turn to Jesus when the see Him.
Sorry, but I don't ignore scripture, I understand scripture.
After reading your posts, I would not touch your video with a ten foot pole!
Iamlamad
You say millions will turn to Jesus after the pretrib rapture. Who is talking of Jesus and turning people to Jesus during this time if all believers are taken from the earth? You don’t have scriptural evidence for your pre-trib rapture position. The best you can do is claim the saints described during the revelation are converts because you have already been taken from the earth before suffering.
We have 1/4th of the earth dying in Rev 6. The fifth seal shows under the altar those who have been
‘slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held’. They died on earth during the first four seals.
The 144,000 are in heaven (Rev 14:1). They were redeemed from the earth (Rev 14:3). They were on the earth and were protected by the seal of God and couldn’t be harmed by the locusts (Rev 9:4, Rev 7:3).
The wrath of God does not begin at the 6th seal. You are blatantly wrong. The first four seals are opened and 1/4th of the people on earth perish by sword, by hunger, by death and the beasts of the earth. This is the wrath of God. God is almighty. God created all things. If 1/4th of the earth perishes (this is 1 billion 750 million at current numbers of 7 billion population) this is clearly God’s wrath. You are confused because in Rev 6:17 the men hide themselves and say the great day of the Lord’s wrath has come. Rev 6:16 says they want to be hidden from the face of Him who sits on the throne, potentially meaning the Lord reveals himself to the earth on His throne. It doesn’t mean this is the beginning of His wrath. Clearly the first four seals are part of His wrath. If the humans identify that this is the Lord’s wrath in 6:17 it does not mean the first four seals were not His wrath.
God is almighty and all things work towards God’s purpose. This is God’s story, he knows the beginning from the end. If God allows 1/4th of the earth to perish, it is by His will, and it is His wrath.
You say that those in the 5th seal must wait until every last one of their brethren would be killed as they were, that they must wait for the pre-tribulation rapture to occur. This is absurd. If you are on the earth while 1 billion 750 million people perish from war, famine, death and beasts YOU ARE ALREADY IN THE TRIBULATION. You are saying the pre-trib rapture happens after the first four seals and before the 6th seal? All because you misunderstand God’s wrath, because you don’t understand that all things are from God and the first four seals constitute part of God’s wrath.
Now the 5th seal describes those who have been
‘slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held’. This means they were killed for their faith in Jesus Christ and for their testimony. They cry out for their spilled blood to be avenged but are given a white robe and told they should rest until the rest of their brethren, their fellow servants would be killed as they were.
This shows there are more servants on earth that are to be killed. What this means is that before God’s wrath comes upon those who spilled their blood, the rest of their brethren who would be martyred must occur first, before the Lord’s judgment falls upon the wicked that slayed them.
We know that many are still to perish by persecution from the dragon (Rev 12:17), the beast (Rev 13:7), false prophet decree to death (Rev 13:15), beheaded (Rev 20:4).
John 17 is not confined in time. John 14 doesn’t imply a rapture. Yes the Lord’s house has many mansions prepared for true believers. Those who are true will be received. This is when we die and keep our faith true (Rev 2:10) or if we are a part of those who are ‘alive and remain’ when the Lord returns, and will be gathered and transformed in the ONLY TRUE RAPTURE at the final trumpet (1 Thes 4:16-17, 1 Corinthians 15:52, Matthew 24:29-31).
I’ve already mentioned that 2 Thes 2:3 says in the common translations (you can check Biblehub) is falling away, apostasy, the rebellion, the departure. All mean a departure in faith. No I don’t believe this means the restrainer is the church. I don’t believe the Lord would take the church from the earth, removing the light/salt from the earth in the time of greatest darkness, when they are needed the most. If you stand strong in your faith there is no need to fear in your life, as when you die your fate is certain. There is important work to do on the earth during the end times and this includes bringing people to Jesus.
How does 1 Thes 4:7 mean the Lord is coming to take the church? Rev 19 is the marriage of the Lamb being announced, it
‘has come, and His wife has made herself ready’. The very next verse at 19/11 the Lord returns to the earth with His power and glory, He resurrects those who died and gathers those who remain on the earth (Rev 20:4). When the Lord has gathered everyone the marriage supper will be. Rev 19 is saying the time has arrived, the wife is ready, the marriage supper has come. Why would the Lord have a marriage in heaven with all present and those who died during the tribulation, when in the very next verse He arrives on the earth and resurrects the dead and gathers those who are alive. All believers in Christ are the body of Christ, they are the church with Christ at the head. The marriage supper is called in 19, but will actually occur when the Lord is together with all believers (since all will be gathered upon the Lord’s return to the earth).
The alternative is that there will be a marriage and supper in heaven. Then the Lord will resurrect those from heaven to the earth. Those who are still alive through the tribulation will be gathered. There will be another marriage and supper and those who are in heaven but resurrected will get two marriages and suppers (they wont be married to the Lord twice), and the ones on earth will get one marriage supper.
I think it makes a lot more sense that since the Lord is arriving on the earth, and gathers all true believers, from heaven and the earth, the supper will be with the Lamb (who is on the earth) with all true believers.
Where is the proof the last trumpet is referring to a feast trumpet? Matthew 24:31 says the angels will gather the elect with the sound of a trumpet. The elect are the body of Christ, which is the Church. Yes the Lord came for Israel, but the Lord was killed in the flesh and put on the cross and Israel predominantly is in rebellion against Him. Jesus Christ is the son of God. He is the beginning and the ending, the Alpha and the Omega, the Almighty (Rev 1:8). He is one with His father. Jesus knows exactly what would happen with their rebellion. God knows exactly that salvation came to the gentiles as a result of Israel’s rebellion. We know all who truly believe in Jesus Christ will be saved (Romans 10:9). To say that the Lord is ignorant of His own story, or doesn’t know what is going to come just isn’t true and you cannot assume of the Lord being ignorant of future occurrences in His own story. The last trumpet is when Christ arrives (see Matthew 24:31). Yes Matthew 24:31 is referring to a gathering of true believers, not necessarily entirely on earth KJV “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall
gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
You are wrong on Rev 20:4, where are you providing for the very people described in Rev 20:4? The saints on earth who were beheaded for their witness to Jesus and word of God, who did not worship the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. This clearly describes saints on the earth, who are forced to choose between their lives and the mark of the beast. The 144,000 are redeemed from the earth. They could be redeemed the way the two witnesses are (Rev 11:12), or another way, or redeemed through death. Again you don’t have much of any scriptural evidence for a whole church pre-trib rapture as you claim. But I’m sure you don't agree, I just don’t find anything you or others have said supporting this view as convincing.
So you are saying the only witnesses on earth will be 144,000 and the two witnesses? The whole church is gone? You know that the 144,000 receive the seal of God? I’m sure the 144,000 will be witnesses and bringing people to the Lord. This doesn’t mean all believers will be taken from the earth. 144,000 is all that will be witnesses to God on the earth? That will be all the amount of true believers to bring people to the Lord? We are told that the faithful believers will be protected from the trial (Rev 3:10), which can be protected from evil and doesn’t say they will be taken from the earth (lot was protected from the trial (2 Peter 2:7-9)).
The 70 weeks describes bringing an end to sin, to make reconciliation for lawlessness and to bring everlasting righteousness (Daniel 9:24) which describe the total tribulation period. Evil is brought against Jerusalem (Dan 9:12), there is destruction but those who remain will flee into the wilderness. The Lord’s judgment will be upon the whole earth, all wickedness and unrighteousness. Not all who are within the church are true believers (Matt 7:21-23), the lukewarm will be vomited out, we have other areas of scripture describing falling away (not just 2 Thes 2:3) in faith under persecution and difficulty.
Again you haven’t proved your position scripturally, which is the ONLY true basis for supporting your view. You are making far too many assumptions. Where does it say the Lord is taking the church in the pre-trib rapture? Where does it say they will all be taken from the earth?
Anyway, it’s clear to both of us we don’t agree. You can assume the superior perspective and say I don’t understand scripture or whatever you want. If you made a video or thread on this topic I would consider your material. I am not close minded to your perspective, I just don't find it convincing. I am interested to hear if you have more evidence supporting your position. But I don’t expect you to consider the scripture I have presented in my 12 minute video, since it is apparently beneath you. I find too many failures and difficulties in your reasoning and perspectives, but I assume you do with mine. Anyway, thanks for the post.
