Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

Major1 said:

NO! If I wanted to read such false hoods and out right distortions I would visit the web site you copied and pasted it from.

Do yourself a favor and move on to something else.

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Top Bible commentators like Albert Barnes, John Calvin, Adam Clarke, John Gill, Matthew Henry, Matthew Poole, John Wesley and others; all teach that Jesus confirmed the covenant that is referenced in Daniel 9:27, and they all teach that Jesus and His disciples completely fulfilled the 70th Week of Daniel prophecy.

Here the full text.
The 70th Week Of Daniel Covenant Deception

Amen, Brother.

From the 1599, Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America, before John Nelson Darby showed up.

Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.


The New Covenant was promised in Jeremiah chapter 31.

Daniel was reading from the Book of Jeremiah when Gabriel appeared.

Christ said that he would bring in this New Covenant in His Blood, in Matthew 26:28.

What comes in between Jeremiah 31 and Matthew 26?
That would be Daniel 9:27.

Are we supposed to believe the angel Gabriel "forgot" to mention the New Covenant already promised to Jeremiah?

Who Confirmed The Covenant?

James Lloyd

http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

Major1 said:

Riberra said:

Top Bible commentators like Albert Barnes, John Calvin, Adam Clarke, John Gill, Matthew Henry, Matthew Poole, John Wesley and others; all teach that Jesus confirmed the covenant that is referenced in Daniel 9:27, and they all teach that Jesus and His disciples completely fulfilled the 70th Week of Daniel prophecy.

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Matthew Henry Commentary Originally written in 1706

Matthew Henry Complete Bible Commentary Online

full text here:
Daniel 9 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)

About the full 70 weeks of Daniel.

Concerning the termination of them; and here likewise interpreters are not agreed. Some make them to end at the death of Christ, and think the express words of this famous prophecy will warrant us to conclude that from this very hour when Gabriel spoke to Daniel, at the time of the evening oblation, to the hour when Christ died, which was towards evening too, it was exactly 490 years; and I am willing enough to be of that opinion.

But others think, because it is said that in the midst of the weeks (that is, the last of the seventy weeks) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, they end three years and a half after the death of Christ, when the Jews having rejected the gospel, the apostles turned to the Gentiles. But those who make them to end precisely at the death of Christ read it thus, "He shall make strong the testament to the many; the last seven, or the last week, yea, half that seven, or half that week (namely, the latter half, the three years and a half which Christ spent in his public ministry), shall bring to an end sacrifice and oblation.’’ Others make these 490 years to end with the destruction of Jerusalem, about thirty-seven years after the death of Christ, because these seventy weeks are said to be determined upon the people of the Jews and the holy city; and much is said here concerning the destruction of the city and the sanctuary.

Riberra said:

Matthew Henry Commentary Originally written in 1706

Matthew Henry Complete Bible Commentary Online

full text here:
Daniel 9 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)

About the full 70 weeks of Daniel.

Concerning the termination of them; and here likewise interpreters are not agreed. Some make them to end at the death of Christ, and think the express words of this famous prophecy will warrant us to conclude that from this very hour when Gabriel spoke to Daniel, at the time of the evening oblation, to the hour when Christ died, which was towards evening too, it was exactly 490 years; and I am willing enough to be of that opinion.

But others think, because it is said that in the midst of the weeks (that is, the last of the seventy weeks) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, they end three years and a half after the death of Christ, when the Jews having rejected the gospel, the apostles turned to the Gentiles. But those who make them to end precisely at the death of Christ read it thus, "He shall make strong the testament to the many; the last seven, or the last week, yea, half that seven, or half that week (namely, the latter half, the three years and a half which Christ spent in his public ministry), shall bring to an end sacrifice and oblation.’’ Others make these 490 years to end with the destruction of Jerusalem, about thirty-seven years after the death of Christ, because these seventy weeks are said to be determined upon the people of the Jews and the holy city; and much is said here concerning the destruction of the city and the sanctuary.

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Good to know. Now here are some individuals who think as you do........You fit right in.
Arnold Murray
Pat Robertson
R.C. Sproul
Herbert W. Armstrong
Garner Ted Armstrong
Texe Marrs

The commandment to restore and build Jerusalem was given by Artaxerxes Longimanus on March 14, 445 B.C. (The emphasis in the verse on "the street" and "the wall" was to avoid confusion with other earlier mandates confined to rebuilding the Temple.)

During the ministry of Jesus Christ there were several occasions in which the people attempted to promote Him as king, but He carefully avoided it: "Mine hour is not yet come".

Then, one day, He meticulously arranges it. On this particular day he rode into the city of Jerusalem riding on a donkey, deliberately fulfilling a prophecy by Zechariah that the Messiah would present Himself as king in just that way:

Zech. 9:9...
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Whenever we might easily miss the significance of what was going on, the Pharisees come to our rescue. They felt that the overzealous crowd was blaspheming, proclaiming Jesus as the Messiah the King. However, Jesus endorsed it!

Luke 19:40.....
I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

This is the only occasion that Jesus presented Himself as King. It occurred on April 6, 32 A.D.

When we examine the period between March 14, 445 B.C. and April 6, 32 A.D., and correct for leap years, we discover that it is 173,880 days exactly, to the very day!

There is then a gap between the 69th week (verse 25) and the 70th week (verse 27):

Dan. 9:26....
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The sixty-two "weeks" follow the initial seven, so verse 26 deals with events after 69th week, but before the 70th. These events include the Messiah being killed and the city and sanctuary being destroyed.

As Jesus approached the city on the donkey, He also predicted the destruction of Jerusalem:

Luke 19:43-44.......
For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

The Messiah was, of course, executed at the Crucifixion..."but not for Himself."

The city and the sanctuary were destroyed 38 years later when the Roman legions under Titus Vespasian leveled the city of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, precisely as Daniel and Jesus had predicted. In fact, as one carefully examines Jesus' specific words, it appears that He held them accountable to know this astonishing prophecy in Daniel 9! "Because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation."

There is then a remaining seven-year period to be fulfilled. This period is the most documented period in the entire Bible. The Book of Revelation, Chapters 6 through 19, is essentially a detailing of that climactic period.

The interval between the 69th and 70th week continues, but it is increasingly apparent that it may soon be over.

The more one is familiar with the numerous climactic themes of "end-time" prophecy, the more it seems that Daniel's 70th Week is on our horizon.
Material supplied in part from(The Precision of Prophecy Daniels 70 Weeks - Chuck Missler - Koinonia House)

Major1 said:

There is then a remaining seven-year period to be fulfilled. This period is the most documented period in the entire Bible. The Book of Revelation, Chapters 6 through 19, is essentially a detailing of that climactic period.

The interval between the 69th and 70th week continues, but it is increasingly apparent that it may soon be over.

The more one is familiar with the numerous climactic themes of "end-time" prophecy, the more it seems that Daniel's 70th Week is on our horizon.
Material supplied in part from(The Precision of Prophecy Daniels 70 Weeks - Chuck Missler - Koinonia House)

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You are free to believe that there is a 2,000 years GAP betwen the 69 Th and the 70 Th week, but the readers have the right to know that this is false teaching.The 70 weeks of Daniel prophecy have nothing to do about the Little Horn/Beast of the End Times prophesied by Daniel and John in Revelation.

Major1 said:

I know that and have been saying exactly that to you.

I have just as much a need and right to say that your position is false as well.

Thanks for your opinion.

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Contary to you ,I am not expecting the end of the world to happen soon.

The 70 weeks of Daniel prophecy have nothing to do about the Little Horn/Beast of the End Times prophesied by Daniel and later by John in Revelation.

Note also:
The time of Jacob' troubles for the Jews have occured during the destruction of Jerusalem by the roman army in 70 AD, 1,2 million of Jews have been killed at that moment.

Riberra said:

You are free to believe that there is a 2,000 years GAP betwen the 69 Th and the 70 Th week, but the readers have the right to know that this is false teaching.The 70 weeks of Daniel prophecy have nothing to do about the Little Horn/Beast of the End Times prophesied by Daniel and John in Revelation.

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It is obvious that you embrace a preterist position. That is not Biblical. IT is popular but not Biblical.

Daniel 9:24...........
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

1. all transgression would be finished or restrained,
2. all sin would be put to an end,
3. atonement would be made for all wickedness,
4. everlasting righteousness would begin,
5. all vision and prophecy would be sealed up, and
6. the most Holy One and most Holy Place would be anointed.

DID ALL OF THAT HAPPEN????

Consider points #1 and #2. Do you believe that All transgression in Israel has been finished or restrained????? What you are trying to essence is that there iS NO TRANSGRESSIONS TAKING PLACE.

Then you are saying that all sin been put to an end. REALLY??????
Do you actually think through what you post before posting it.
Do you realize how embarrassing this is for you????
This only can happen once Jesus, the Messiah returns and writes His perfect Law on the hearts of the people of Israel. This can only happen will at the beginning of the Millennium.

Now consider points #4 and #5. Just as in points #1 and #2, everlasting righteousness cannot begin in Israel until her Messiah has come and has begun to rule and reign.

Rev. 20:4........
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. "

Furthermore, when He comes again, all visions and prophecy about His coming to be their sovereign King, as well as about the Israelites being gathered from all the nations and brought back into their homeland, will be sealed, in the sense of being confirmed or fulfilled.

Thus, #3 and #6 are the only ones of the six points that, arguably, could be associated with Jesus' initial coming in the first century. Let's look at these two points. Many would insist that Jesus' blood sacrifice on the cross was the blood atonement made for all wickedness, including that of Israel. It could be argued, though, that the refusal of the vast majority of Israelites (whether in Israel or dispersed among the nations) to accept this blood atonement, on their behalf, has left them unredeemed and unsaved.

Let us look at point #3. We know that "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness" of sins (Hebrews 9:22). Because of the gigantic bloodbath that will take place when Jesus returns to earth (which I am convinced will take place on a future time), as He is treading the winepress of God's wrath (Revelation 14:19,20, 19:15), it also could be argued that final atonement will be made for the sins of a remnant of Israel at that time. That is, when the Great Trumpet of Yom Kippur is blown, God's wrathful punishment will be deflected from them onto their enemies (Isaiah 27:7-9,12,13), who will shed enough blood to rise as high as the horse's bridles.

Next, let us look at point #6. Jesus was anointed by the Holy Spirit at His baptism by John the Baptist. Also, not long before His crucifixion, Jesus was anointed by the woman in Bethany (Matthew 26:6,7). Symbolically, according to Jesus, the latter was a preparation for His burial (26:12). However one looks at it, unquestionably Jesus was the Anointed One at His first coming.

I believe that Jesus also will be anointed as King and the Holy One, once He returns again and sits on His throne in Jerusalem, just as David was anointed as king over Judah (2 Samuel 2:4) and over Israel (5:3), and Solomon was anointed king over Israel (1 Kings 1:39). Jesus will be the Anointed One (Psalm 2:2) who will be installed as King on His holy hill in Jerusalem (2:6). Furthermore, presumably, the Millennial Temple (Holy Place), once it has been constructed, will be anointed as well. These are future anointings.

As far as I can see, those are the only two of the six points in the list above that, conceivably, could have had to do with Jesus' first coming. Yet it can be argued quite effectively, I believe, that they very likely will be associated with His second coming instead. Moreover, not until Jesus returns back to earth again—which I am convinced will take place when the seventy weeks of years are completed—will all transgression be finished, all of Israel's sin be put to an end, everlasting righteousness begin, and all vision and prophecy be sealed up for the nation of Israel.
(www.tedmontogmery,com

Major1 said:

It is obvious that you embrace a preterist position. That is not Biblical. IT is popular but not Biblical.

Daniel 9:24...........
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

1. all transgression would be finished or restrained,
2. all sin would be put to an end,
3. atonement would be made for all wickedness,
4. everlasting righteousness would begin,
5. all vision and prophecy would be sealed up, and
6. the most Holy One and most Holy Place would be anointed.

DID ALL OF THAT HAPPEN????

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all transgression would be finished or restrained,
all sin would be put to an end,
atonement would be made for all wickedness,
everlasting righteousness would begin,
all vision and prophecy would be sealed up, and
the most Holy One and most Holy Place would be anointed.


The Jews needed to accomplish all the above in the allowed 490 years.They have rejected all that and have cruxified Jesus the Messiah,thus their desolation have come upon them in 70 AD.


The context of the 70 weeks of Daniel prophecy is NOT about the end-times.

The context of the passage is about Daniel’s people, the Jews, who were due to be released from Babylonian captivity, and Daniel had been praying about their future.

In the passage, God told Daniel (through His angel) that He was giving the Jews one last chance to repent of their sins, to reconcile with God, and to prepare for their coming Messiah, who would arrive in the 70th week of the prophecy.

The prophecy of the 70 Weeks of Daniel told the Jews EXACTLY what year the Messiah would appear.

Jesus disciples understood the timing of the prophecy and were expecting Him, as witnessed when Andrew told his brother Simon, “we have found the Messiah.”

Satan used the hard hearts of the Jewish leaders to hide it from them, which caused them to reject Jesus and deliver Him up to be crucified.

To understand the context of the prophecy, read the complete chapter of Daniel 9.

The focus of this study is Daniel 9:27: “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”
The Covenant of Jesus is a perfect fit with the prophecy of Daniel’s 70 Weeks.

Many modern teachers say that the pronoun ‘he’ represents an end-time antichrist who makes a peace covenant with Israel. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Antichrist will make, confirm, or break a covenant with anyone, let alone Israel.

The pronoun ‘he’ is referring to the previous noun, ‘prince’, from verse 26.

The prince is Jesus, as the word prince (nagiyd) in verse 26 is the same as in verse 25 which declares the arrival of Messiah the Prince (Jesus).

There are many verses that point to Jesus confirming a covenant during His ministry, which took place during the first half of the 70th Week of Daniel.

‘And He(Jesus) said to them, “For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” Matthew 26:28

In these words we find four things which agree with the prophecy of Daniel 9:27:

“the One” who was to confirm the covenant, Jesus the Messiah;
“the covenant” itself, the renewed covenant made with Abraham;
that which “confirmed” the covenant, the blood of Christ;
those who receive the benefits of the covenant, the “many” who believe in Him as their Messiah.

These words correspond perfectly with those of the prophecy. “He shall confirm the covenant with many.”

Here’s more verses that testify that Jesus shed blood confirmed the New Covenant, which redeemed many.

Zechariah 2:11 “Many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and they shall become My people. And I will dwell in your midst. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you.”

Through Jesus, the promise to make Abraham a “father of many nations” was fulfilled, as Jesus disciples spread the gospel to many nations.

Isaiah 53:11 says, “He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities.“

Matthew 20:28 says, “just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.“

Romans 5:15 says, “But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.”

Romans 5:19 says, “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.”

Scripture tells us that it is Christ who confirmed the covenant.

Romans 15:8 clearly tells us that Jesus Christ was sent to confirm the promised made unto Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc.

“Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers.”

Galatians 3:13-18 tells us that the covenant was confirmed before of God in Christ.

“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.”

Psalm3704 said:

All i did was merely made you aware of your mistake and you're just too ashame to admit you stuck your foot in your mouth.

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Mat_7:3　 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Mat_7:4　 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

Mat_7:5　 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.


You are the one who denies that Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13, when the exact text from the Old Testament is quoted in the passage.



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BABerean2 said:

Mat_7:3　 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Mat_7:4　 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

Mat_7:5　 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

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BABerean2 said:

You are the one who denies that Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13, when the exact text from the Old Testament is quoted in the passage.

You may want to avoid talking about "foot-in-mouth".

And then you pretend to be the Jedi Master, by calling others "padawan", to top it off.

It would be better to discuss the text, instead...

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Well let's go to the bible and see what the text had to say.



The bible said when God makes this covenant with all of Israel (both Kingdoms: Israel and Judah), it will happen at a time when:

1) The descendants of Israel will never stop being a nation. ~ Jeremiah 31:36

2) The days are coming when the city of Jerusalem will be rebuilt for the Lord. The whole city will be rebuilt ~ Jeremiah 31:38

3) The city of Jerusalem will never again be torn down or destroyed. ~ Jeremiah 31:40











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In the English language we are looking for the tense of the passage.

However, we must remember that sometimes the New Testament writers quoted directed from the prophecies of the Old Testament.

Jer_31:31　 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
(future tense)

Mat_26:28　 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (present tense)

Mar_14:24　 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many. (present tense)

Luk_22:20　 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you. (present tense)

1Co_11:25　 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."
(present tense)

2Co_3:6　 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. (past tense)


Heb 8:6　 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.　(present tense)
Heb 8:7　 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.　
Heb_8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH— (The Old Testament section is written in the future tense, because it is copied directly from Jeremiah 31:31. Look at the first verse listed at the top to confirm this.)

Heb_8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. (past tense)

Heb_9:15　 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. (present tense)

Heb_12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. (present tense) (The reference to "the blood" connects the verse to Matthew 26:28.)


You quote from one New Covenant verse (Hebrews 8:8) copied directly from the Old Testament, but then attempt to ignore all of the others written in the present tense.

And then you attempt to interpret the New Testament passages through your own interpretation of the Old Testament, in an attempt to make your doctrine work.



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BABerean2 said:

In the English language we are looking for the tense of the passage.

However, we must remember that sometimes the New Testament writers quoted directed from the prophecies of the Old Testament.

Jer_31:31　 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
(future tense)

Mat_26:28　 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (present tense)

Mar_14:24　 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many. (present tense)

Luk_22:20　 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you. (present tense)

1Co_11:25　 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."
(present tense)

2Co_3:6　 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. (past tense)


Heb 8:6　 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.　(present tense)
Heb 8:7　 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.　
Heb_8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH— (The Old Testament section is written in the future tense, because it is copied directly from Jeremiah 31:31. Look at the first verse listed at the top to confirm this.)

Heb_8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. (past tense)

Heb_9:15　 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. (present tense)

Heb_12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. (present tense) (The reference to "the blood" connects the verse to Matthew 26:28.)


You quote from one New Covenant verse (Hebrews 8:8) copied directly from the Old Testament, but then attempt to ignore all of the others written in the present tense.

And then you attempt to interpret the New Testament passages through your own interpretation of the Old Testament, in an attempt to make your doctrine work.



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But BAB2,

You're just hiding from the truth. What are you gonna do with Jeremiah 31:31-40, just throw it out the window and ignore it since destroys your argument?


The bible said when God makes this covenant with all of Israel (both Kingdoms: Israel and Judah), it will happen at a time when:

1) The descendants of Israel will never stop being a nation. ~ Jeremiah 31:36

2) The days are coming when the city of Jerusalem will be rebuilt for the Lord. The whole city will be rebuilt ~ Jeremiah 31:38

3) The city of Jerusalem will never again be torn down or destroyed. ~ Jeremiah 31:40

Well BAB2. I rest my case, now what say you?








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precepts said:

And by the way, the 70 weeks is really referring to 70 literal yrs.

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70 weeks cannot equal 70 years.

It could be interpreted as 7 days x 70 = 490 days

or

7 weeks of years (7 years) x 70 = 490 years

Dan 9:24　 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.　
Dan 9:25　 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.　
Dan 9:26　 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.　
Dan 9:27　 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."　

The covenant with the many in Daniel 9:27 is the same covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28, which is the New Covenant foretold in Jeremiah 31:31-34. It is found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13 and Hebrews 12:18-24.

Daniel was reading from the Book of Jeremiah when the angel Gabriel appeared.

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BABerean2 said:

Find a Bible that has not had Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:18-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8 cut out of it.

Take an English class dealing with the tense of verbs, like "now" which is found in Hebrews 8:6.

All false doctrines are revealed not by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but by the scripture they must ignore to make the doctrine work.

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In the rest of Jeremiah 31, it also said the following.


You're just hiding from the truth. What are you gonna do with Jeremiah 31:31-40, just throw it out the window and ignore it since destroys your argument?


The bible said when God makes this covenant with all of Israel (both Kingdoms: Israel and Judah), it will happen at a time when:

1) The descendants of Israel will never stop being a nation. ~ Jeremiah 31:36

2) The days are coming when the city of Jerusalem will be rebuilt for the Lord. The whole city will be rebuilt ~ Jeremiah 31:38

3) The city of Jerusalem will never again be torn down or destroyed. ~ Jeremiah 31:40

You're just hiding from the truth BAB2. What are you gonna do with Jeremiah 31:31-40, just throw it out the window and ignore it since destroys your argument? Deny everything in the bible that doesn't fit your can of worms? You and your cherry-pick-theology.

Strike 1!!!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hebrews 8:6-13 was written in 65 AD.

Paul tells us in Hebrews 8:10, the covenant will be fulfill in the future from the time he wrote the book of Hebrews.

BAB2, did you know will indicates future tense?

Hebrews 8:10 (GNT) Now, this is the covenant that I will make with the people of Israel in the days to come, says the Lord: I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

(Future tense)

Hebrews 8:10 (NCV) This is the agreement I will make with the people of Israel at that time, says the Lord. I will put my teachings in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

(Future tense)


Hebrews 8:10 (NIV) This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

(Future tense)

Hebrews 8:6-13 was written in 65 AD.

Matthew 26:28 happened in 33 AD.

I'm sure you think 65 AD happened before 33 AD. I rest my case.

Strike 2!!!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hebrews 12:18-29 is evidence of a pre-trib rapture. And completely destroys your precious post-trib rapture.



~at the sound of the trumpet (1 Thessalonians 4:16), Hebrews 12:19,

~the church is taken to heaven. Hebrews 12:22-23.

~This happens just before the tribulation when God pours out His wrath upon the earth, Hebrews 12:26.

~And destroys the world by fire. Hebrews 12:29.

BAB2 guess what? Strike 3!!! You're outta dere!

Now what say you? 0 for 3, at least you're consistent.











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Psalm3704 said:

You're just hiding from the truth. What are you gonna do with Jeremiah 31:31-40, just throw it out the window and ignore it since destroys your argument?

Click to expand...

You have got me now...

I thought that the word "now" found in Hebrews 8:6 meant that Christ was now the mediator of a New Covenant, since "now" is a present tense word.

I also thought that the New Covenant made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13.

I thought the New Covenant was applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:18-24.

I also thought that Paul said we are ministers of the New Covenant in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

I appreciate your efforts here to reveal the truth in this matter.

Thank you very much.

Your interpretation of the Old Testament, combined with your clever Baseball analogy, has revealed the truth.

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BABerean2 said:

You have got me now...

I thought that the word "now" found in Hebrews 8:6 meant that Christ was now the mediator of a New Covenant, since "now" is a present tense word.

I also thought that the New Covenant made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13.

Click to expand...

Wrong thinking BAB2. Besides the obvious that Paul wrote the book of Hebrews in 65 AD and the Kingdom of Israel has never returned to Israel. The promise is future tense. How many times can you count "I will" in Hebrews 8?


Repeat after me BAB2, I will never understand Paul's writings.

BABerean2 said:

I thought the New Covenant was applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:18-24.

Click to expand...

Do you realize Hebrews 12 is four chapters away from Hebrews 8.

Paul's not writing about the same thing in chapter 12.

Repeat after me BAB2, I will never understand Paul's writings.

BABerean2 said:

I also thought that Paul said we are ministers of the New Covenant in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

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Do you realize 2 Corinthians 3 and Hebrews 8 are different books and not writings on the same topic.

This time you went deep into the end zone on a 3rd and 1 yard play at the 50 yard line. You didn't need to pull a verse out of context from that far away. No Hail Mary needed on a 3rd and 1 play from scrimmage.

Repeat after me BAB2, I will never understand Paul's writings.

BABerean2 said:

I appreciate your efforts here to reveal the truth in this matter.

Thank you very much.

Your interpretation of the Old Testament, combined with your clever Baseball analogy, has revealed the truth.

Click to expand...

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Psalm3704 said:

Do you realize Hebrews 12 is four chapters away from Hebrews 8.

Paul's not writing about the same thing in chapter 12.

Click to expand...

That is a good one! I hope you do realize the chapters and verses were added after Paul wrote the letter.

Heb 12:22　 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,　
Heb 12:23　 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,　
Heb 12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.　


How about the verse below? It is right after chapter 8.
Now what are you going to do since this is not found in Jeremiah chapter 31?

Heb 9:15　 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.　(Present tense)


Maybe you will say Paul is talking about something different...

or try to ignore it and talk about baseball...

Before this thread, with its good discussions, falls off the front page list, I will again answer the question asked in the OP;
'Where in Revelation is a rapture mentioned'?
Answer: 'Nowhere in Revelation is a rapture mentioned'.

For that matter, a rapture removal of the Church to heaven is never mentioned anywhere in the Bible. It is very unwise to believe the rapture doctrine.
It leads to complacency and means that those who have believed such a thing, will be devastated when it doesn't happen.