Romans 9 and Salvation

faroukfarouk

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But if you read a few more verses you will find:

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:44
Very relevant, certainly; I wouldn't by 'but' imply that this negates human responsibility; maybe you're not actually saying this.

I do like what CH Spurgeon - with his profound knowledge of the Scriptures - said when asked how to reconcile God's sovereignty with human responsibility. His pithy reply was to say that he would not try to reconcile great friends.
 
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Ken Rank

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SOTERIA in the New Testament basically means deliverance, and according to context it can refer to different shades of meaning.

Part of the problem with 'sound-bite' styles of evangelism which urges people to sign the dotted line according to a formula sometimes imposed on Scripture is that context is sometimes lost. While the Holy Spirit can indeed use Scripture expressed in a sound-bite, yet what a word - such as SOTERIA - means in context is helpful and important to consider.
Yes, deliverance is a good word but the Isaiah passages being quoted, and previous Hoses verses being quoted, are dealing with Israel in the nations and the often overlooked and ignored promise that they will be called BACK to the fold and to the land. Teshuvah is a word in Hebrew we often translate as repent, but it is really return... which carries the notion that whoever is returning was there once before. :) That is part of the context in Romans 9... but we have turned the English "saved" in that verse in an eternal security thing. Blessings.
 
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Ken Rank

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Sure let's talk about John 3,

3 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus[a] by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.”

Nicodemus, is saying we, as if the pharisees, know he is a teacher sent from God.

Jesus came for the Jews, we all know this.

When Jesus says, for God so loved the World, it means, Nicodemus, I came for the Jews, but salvation is going to be available to Jews AND gentiles alike.
Thanks for the lesson? :)
 
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faroukfarouk

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Yes, deliverance is a good word but the Isaiah passages being quoted, and previous Hoses verses being quoted, are dealing with Israel in the nations and the often overlooked and ignored promise that they will be called BACK to the fold and to the land. Teshuvah is a word in Hebrew we often translate as repent, but it is really return... which carries the notion that whoever is returning was there once before. :) That is part of the context in Romans 9... but we have turned the English "saved" in that verse in an eternal security thing. Blessings.
I think in the panorama of revelation from Old Testament to New Testament, the multiple references to word meanings show parallels and developments rather than necessarily referring exclusively to one aspect; you mention repentance: METANOIA in the New Testament which basically means turning. A Jew steeped in the Old Testament may indeed be reminded of the return of an exile. Turning and returning according to context may - one or other or both - be present, according to context.

Again as in the other thread my thinking is of course influenced by dispensational presuppositions; I don't see the church in the Old Testament and I would see Israel and the church as distinct entities.

Arabic also might have multiple references in one word that Arabs would pick up in the form of the consonantal nodes, but as far as this committing everyone to one exclusive use of a basic consonantal node of letters, this would not be understood by Arabs as necessary.
 
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Ken Rank

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I think in the panorama of revelation from Old Testament to New Testament, the multiple references to word meanings show parallels and developments rather than necessarily referring exclusively to one aspect; you mention repentance: METANOIA in the New Testament which basically means turning. A Jew steeped in the Old Testament may indeed be reminded of the return of an exile. Turning and returning according to context may - one or other or both - be present, according to context.

Again as in the other thread my thinking is of course influenced by dispensational presuppositions; I don't see the church in the Old Testament and I would see Israel and the church as distinct entities.

Arabic also might have multiple references in one word that Arabs would pick up in the form of the consonantal nodes, but as far as this committing everyone to one exclusive use of a basic consonantal node of letters, this would not be understood by Arabs as necessary.
I still think we lose, sometimes, the weight of certain things in translation. A b'rit is an agreement made between two or more parties and it is cut in blood. The closest thing we have in English is a covenant but that doesn't require blood. Since the Greek word for covenant (diatheke) also is the word for will or testament... we have gone from an agreement cut in blood to God writing a will. The idea of a New TESTAMENT (or OT) is just not consistent at all with the rest of Scripture.

So much context and meaning is lost in that one example. Repenting does means to turn, but it doesn't end there. It carries a destination to turn to once you turn away from the other. In English we see a person walking toward a cliff and we call on him to repent, and he turns, and starts walking toward another cliff? When Yeshua, and I use his name that way to make a point... we are dealing with Hebraic concepts because, though God is the inspiration... the paradigm of the writers was not 21st century Western, it was 1st century Semitic Near East. So the Hebraic concept of repent was yes... to turn away... but then TO a specific place. If we are living in sin then the call to repent is to be called AWAY from the sin and TO the righteousness of God. And that is where we kind of fall short here... we stop halfway through the point. We need to make sure the destination is clear when one turns. :)
 
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Thursday

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Cooperative salvation is works salvation and NOT of grace CONDITIONED solely upon Christ and His merits alone. Sacramental works salvation of Popery is man made along the lines of evangelical Arminianism. Gods the potter, we are the clay. God is sovereign over His creation and has power to do as HE WILLS with it!! The response you have is typical to the sinful unregenerate arrogant man. He that is of God heareth Gods words: YE therefore hear them not, BECAUSE YE ARE NOT OF GOD. John 8:47. Those whom God has quickened and saved by His mercy in Christ, WILL hear and submit to Gods Holy Word and rest fully in Christ Jesus as their hope of redemption

Wrong. Grace enables cooperation.

Do you think someone who refuses to obey Jesus will be saved?
 
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Ken Rank

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Thanks for the lesson? :)
@PrettyboyAndy you rated this "creative" which I take as you maybe saying I am dodging a point or something? If no, that's fine... if yes... that was my response because I had nothing to say. I don't have a clue what you were saying, or how that dealt with what I said. You boldened and changed the font color on "ruler of the Jews." Was that to make a point? If so, what? Did you know Nicodemus studied at the House of Shammai? Do you know what they taught there? I mean... what are you getting at with the John 3 post? The bottom line is this... I can share about 80 verses, I am guessing... maybe 100, maybe 60.... but more than you want to read... that show we CHOOSE. If you don't think we do, that's fine... but you won't convince me otherwise because you would have to do so while ignoring 80 ish verses. So if that is what you are intending to do... save your time. :) Time is valuable and no need to waste it on me. Blessings.
 
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faroukfarouk

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I still think we lose, sometimes, the weight of certain things in translation. A b'rit is an agreement made between two or more parties and it is cut in blood. The closest thing we have in English is a covenant but that doesn't require blood. Since the Greek word for covenant (diatheke) also is the word for will or testament... we have gone from an agreement cut in blood to God writing a will. The idea of a New TESTAMENT (or OT) is just not consistent at all with the rest of Scripture.

So much context and meaning is lost in that one example. Repenting does means to turn, but it doesn't end there. It carries a destination to turn to once you turn away from the other. In English we see a person walking toward a cliff and we call on him to repent, and he turns, and starts walking toward another cliff? When Yeshua, and I use his name that way to make a point... we are dealing with Hebraic concepts because, though God is the inspiration... the paradigm of the writers was not 21st century Western, it was 1st century Semitic Near East. So the Hebraic concept of repent was yes... to turn away... but then TO a specific place. If we are living in sin then the call to repent is to be called AWAY from the sin and TO the righteousness of God. And that is where we kind of fall short here... we stop halfway through the point. We need to make sure the destination is clear when one turns. :)
I've long understood METANOIA to mean turning from sin and turning to God, anyway; and it's in lexicons with that connotation.

Do you remember the Seekers' song from the 60s? "There is a season - turn, turn, turn - there is a reason - turn, turn, turn - and a time for every purpose under heaven." The thought of Ecclesiastes and Paul in unison. :)

rateyourmusic dot com
 
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ToBeLoved

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Back to the OP which mentions Romans 9 and not necessarily any supporting verses... I question whether we are even talking about eternal salvation here at all! Watch...

Romans 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

If I asked 100 Christians what this verse means, I bet at least 95 would say something about eternal security. However, Paul is quoting Isaiah 10:22... which says, "Though your people be like the sand by the sea, Israel, only a remnant will return. Destruction has been decreed, overwhelming and righteous." The Hebrew word means return, and the context is on the dispersed of Israel and this is even verified in the fact that in the verses leading up to Romans 9:27, Paul is quoting Hosea 1 which is very clearly talking about the dispersed of Israel and their eventual return.

Christianity has turned the entire NT into a call to be saved... and I am not diminishing salvation. But I think that the NT is weighted more on how we walk before the Lord we come to in faith. Paul wrote that all Scripture is inspired by God... and that we can use it for teaching, correction, and instruction in righteous living. But understand that when Paul wrote this there was no NT.... his reference to "Scripture" was a reference to what we now call the OT. The weight should be on how we walk.... and hence the Great Commission is not a call to evangelize the world, it is a call to teach. Teach what? Teach those who want to know what God's will is and how He expects us to walk out our life.
the NT is first and foremost about salvation. That cannot be denied because none of us can even hope to please God without the indwelling Holy Spirit and becoming a Child of God. So nothing wrong with that.

THen after we are His CHildren, the rest of the New TEstament kicks in explaining justification, sanctification and many other things.

I see that as senseible and the only way God could have presented it in Truth.
 
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Ken Rank

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the NT is first and foremost about salvation. That cannot be denied because none of us can even hope to please God without the indwelling Holy Spirit and becoming a Child of God. So nothing wrong with that.

THen after we are His CHildren, the rest of the New TEstament kicks in explaining justification, sanctification and many other things.

I see that as senseible and the only way God could have presented it in Truth.
I don't really disagree but that wasn't my point that you responded to. Romans 9:27 uses the word "saved" in English but is not talking about eternal salvation, it is dealing with a promise made to Israel (as supported by Paul quoting Hosea and Isaiah in that and surrounding verses) and their promised return.

I personally see the NT as a book that is designed to reach out to those in the nations in an effort to reach out to them, call them to a specific path (manner of living) while introducing Messiah's work that had been prophesied long before Romans was written. I also see it pointing us to the OT to learn... and yes, I can give examples. :)
 
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sdowney717

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I don't really disagree but that wasn't my point that you responded to. Romans 9:27 uses the word "saved" in English but is not talking about eternal salvation, it is dealing with a promise made to Israel (as supported by Paul quoting Hosea and Isaiah in that and surrounding verses) and their promised return.

I personally see the NT as a book that is designed to reach out to those in the nations in an effort to reach out to them, call them to a specific path (manner of living) while introducing Messiah's work that had been prophesied long before Romans was written. I also see it pointing us to the OT to learn... and yes, I can give examples. :)

If you read here Romans 9 regarding salvation it is clearly speaking of eternal salvation by the mention of their faith v 30, of those He has called from both gentile and jew. This is summed up in v33.
v28 speaks of what Christ accomplished in His short time on the earth.

v29, The Lord left of them a 'seed', that is a spiritually true remnant of all of Israel that ever was knows the Truth of Christ and is saved, otherwise they would have been as Sodom and Gomorrah which had a complete destruction of those people. The OT covenant is done away with, so get your mind off the land and the flesh regarding Israel.

22 What if God, choosing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction;

23 and this, that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, whom He had prepared before unto glory,

24 even us whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As He saith also in Hosea: “I will call them ‘My people,’ who were not My people, and ‘her beloved’ who was not beloved.”

26 And, “It shall come to pass that in the place where it was said unto them, ‘Ye are not My people,’ there shall they be called the children of the living God.”

27 Isaiah also crieth concerning Israel: “Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved.

28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness, because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.”

29 And as Isaiah said before: “Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we would have been as Sodom and been made like unto Gomorrah.”

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;

31 but Israel, who followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Why so? Because they sought it not by faith but, as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.

33 As it is written: “Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, and whosoever believeth in Him shall not be ashamed.”
 
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Ken Rank

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22 What if God, choosing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction;

23 and this, that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, whom He had prepared before unto glory,

These are the same one people as Romans 9:21 (place cursor over the link) says that those who are vessels of wrath fit for destruction and the vessels of mercy prepared unto glory are out of the same lump. This is proven out not just in vs. 21, but through the rest as follows....

24 even us whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

The word for gentiles is ethnos, it also means nations. I think that is a better word in this case because of what follows....

25 As He saith also in Hosea: “I will call them ‘My people,’ who were not My people, and ‘her beloved’ who was not beloved.”

26 And, “It shall come to pass that in the place where it was said unto them, ‘Ye are not My people,’ there shall they be called the children of the living God.”

Paul quotes Hosea who is talking about the Northern Kingdom, Israel, also known as Ephraim. These are they which were taken into Assyria and then scattered into the nations losing touch with their roots and their identity and who became known, historically, as "The Lost Sheep of the House of Israel." So in the place where God said, "you are not my people" is the nations where God scattered them into (see Deuteronomy 30:1-6, Psalms 44:11, Jeremiah 31:10, Ezekiel 36:19 and many others).... and it is there (in the nations, where we are) where He promised to again call them, "sons (or children) of the Living God."

They were a people who were cut off because of disobedience and said to be "Not my people" (vessels of wrath fit for destruction) and then told to come back and be called, "Sons of the living God" (vessels of mercy fit for glory).

27 Isaiah also crieth concerning Israel: “Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved.


This is a quote, obviously, of Isaiah 10:22 which, if you place your cursor over it, doesn't have the word "saved" in it... it has the word "returned." The Hebrew is y'shuv ( יָשׁוְּב ) which is "shuv" (return) with a yud prefix which is 3rd person imperfect (future) which is translated as "they will." So "they will return." Since Paul is quoting THAT... then we don't go by the English translation, we go by what he quoted. They (Israel) will return."


The Romans 9 verses are not dealing with eternal salvation AS WE define it. It is dealing with salvation, and there are eternal aspects here... but the specifics HERE is dealing with part of the ultimate plan of restoration... calling Israel back from the 4 corners, from the nations they have been scattered into. The prodigal son, Ephraim... coming home.
 
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sdowney717

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These are the same one people as Romans 9:21 (place cursor over the link) says that those who are vessels of wrath fit for destruction and the vessels of mercy prepared unto glory are out of the same lump. This is proven out not just in vs. 21, but through the rest as follows....



The word for gentiles is ethnos, it also means nations. I think that is a better word in this case because of what follows....



Paul quotes Hosea who is talking about the Northern Kingdom, Israel, also known as Ephraim. These are they which were taken into Assyria and then scattered into the nations losing touch with their roots and their identity and who became known, historically, as "The Lost Sheep of the House of Israel." So in the place where God said, "you are not my people" is the nations where God scattered them into (see Deuteronomy 30:1-6, Psalms 44:11, Jeremiah 31:10, Ezekiel 36:19 and many others).... and it is there (in the nations, where we are) where He promised to again call them, "sons (or children) of the Living God."

They were a people who were cut off because of disobedience and said to be "Not my people" (vessels of wrath fit for destruction) and then told to come back and be called, "Sons of the living God" (vessels of mercy fit for glory).



This is a quote, obviously, of Isaiah 10:22 which, if you place your cursor over it, doesn't have the word "saved" in it... it has the word "returned." The Hebrew is y'shuv ( יָשׁוְּב ) which is "shuv" (return) with a yud prefix which is 3rd person imperfect (future) which is translated as "they will." So "they will return." Since Paul is quoting THAT... then we don't go by the English translation, we go by what he quoted. They (Israel) will return."


The Romans 9 verses are not dealing with eternal salvation AS WE define it. It is dealing with salvation, and there are eternal aspects here... but the specifics HERE is dealing with part of the ultimate plan of restoration... calling Israel back from the 4 corners, from the nations they have been scattered into. The prodigal son, Ephraim... coming home.

Some Jews and some Gentiles will be saved, not all jews and gentiles.
Those that He calls to be His are the children of God, meaning salvation for them.
Regardless whether they were of the same lump meaning their flesh, God made from one blood all the nations of the earth, some He has called and others are not called.
Clearly the glory mentioned here in Romans 9 is only for those who obtain salvation from both jew and gentiles.
22 What if God, choosing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction;
23 and this, that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, whom He had prepared before unto glory,
24 even us whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

I had to post with Firefox, Chrome is giving me cloudflare security issues and it messed up my post.
 
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Ken Rank

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Some Jews and some Gentiles will be saved, not all jews and gentiles.
Those that He calls
I don't disagree... just keep in mind two things. One, the seed of Abraham is a seed no man can count. Second, the word remnant does not mean few... it means "that which is left." I am sharing this only because our Christian culture today seems to think that remnant means small amount and it doesn't. Blessings.
 
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bling

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What exactly are you implying? That the faith is not a gift?

Sorry for the short reply, to your longer post, I am just trying to figure where you stand, so I can decipher the post in light of your views.
OK I missed this.

It is very simple: Yes "faith" is a gift all mature adults receive from God and is in contrast to what animals receive, but that does not mean they all turn their faith toward God/Christ.
Every mature adult shows "faith" in something and/or someone.

You are trying to use Eph. 2:8-9 as a "proof text" to show saving faith is also a gift when that is not what it says and even Calvinist scholars agree that is not what it says. The Greek grammar does not support that interpretation nor does the context. The "gift" refers back to "salvation" that is from faith and not the faith itself.
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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OK I missed this.

It is very simple: Yes "faith" is a gift all mature adults receive from God and is in contrast to what animals receive, but that does not mean they all turn their faith toward God/Christ.
Every mature adult shows "faith" in something and/or someone.

You are trying to use Eph. 2:8-9 as a "proof text" to show saving faith is also a gift when that is not what it says and even Calvinist scholars agree that is not what it says. The Greek grammar does not support that interpretation nor does the context. The "gift" refers back to "salvation" that is from faith and not the faith itself.

What is the difference between salvation from faith and faith?

I never heard this before
 
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Thursday

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Yes according to Popery it's wrong. But scripture teaches its all of grace

That's not what scripture teaches. Grace enables salvation, but we will be judged.

More passages for you to ignore:

Matt 7:21
Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Matt 6:15
but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

John 15:10
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.

Matt 25(The Sheep and the Calvinists?)
41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

1 Cor 6
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
 
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bsd058

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What is the difference between salvation from faith and faith?

I never heard this before
They seems to think of faith in terms of an abstract faith that can be placed in anything. Or an ability to believe in something.

We understand it in the sense that belief is in particular the kind that brings about salvation, which can only mean it was faith in Christ to begin with.

Clearly Eph 2:8-9 does not indicate that all have the gift of faith as a gift from God (I don't think this is found anywhere within Scripture--along with prevenient grace), and clearly the kind of faith that God has given in Eph 2:8-9 is the kind of faith that produces salvation, based on context alone.

But I really think all of this is off topic to the correct understanding of Romans 9. This has turned into a Calvinism vs Arminian proof text thread, IMO.
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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They seems to think of faith in terms of an abstract faith that can be placed in anything. Or an ability to believe in something.

We understand it in the sense that belief is in particular the kind that brings about salvation, which can only mean it was faith in Christ to begin with.

Clearly Eph 2:8-9 does not indicate that all have the gift of faith as a gift from God (I don't think this is found anywhere within Scripture--along with prevenient grace), and clearly the kind of faith that God has given in Eph 2:8-9 is the kind of faith that produces salvation, based on context alone.

But I really think all of this is off topic to the correct understanding of Romans 9. This has turned into a Calvinism vs Arminian proof text thread, IMO.


I don't even see anywhere in scripture prevenient grace! Never even heard it before I started chatting on Christian Forums
 
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