Are we in the last of the last days?

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I also believe that God will allow Satan to appear on Earth. This will happen for the last five months of the appointed time of the end prior to the second coming. But I doubt that the Muslims will have any involvement. Paul"s "man" of sin will have his 42 months of authority, but he'll only be let out of the abyss and be revealed for the last 5 months of that time.



The owners of the forum can do whatever they want, it's their forum. I wish that I had bought it before they changed to this new software but I never knew that it was for sale. Still, using the Firefox browser with the right add-ons, like Add blocker plus, I can make it tolerable. Add blocker does more than just block the adds. With the select element feature I can remove various items from the web page with an element hiding rule. I'm still using an old Fisher Price computer with XP so this lets the page load quicker. I had to say bye bye to my old Opera browser though, it just wouldn't work with this forum.

As far as moderators or censorship allowing freedom of speech, this is still the best forum for that. Try rapture ready sometime and you'll see what I mean, they're like a cult.



He also told him that 49 years after an alternative decree, the Messiah would come again. If a second coming was required. But I can't go to hell when I die. I'm a Calvinist, one of the Elect. I was picked by the Father from before the foundation of the universe to follow the Lamb wherever He goes..

And I'm a date setter too, I can't help it. I've got the dates. I just don't go around blabbing them out all the time. Most people don't like it for a couple of reasons that I can think of. They think that we're violating Jesus' instructions that NO MAN CAN KNOW THE DAY OR THE HOUR. And NOBODY and I mean NOBODY wants to hear that the end of the world is here. That's bad news. And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days!

I looked at your date and at some of the material from motsog after you had posted it the other day. I think that it's going to be way sooner. Way sooner. There's too many faithful witnesses that can never be reproduced again. Your date was out of the ball park. I would be far more worried about telling people that our Master is delayed right now, telling them that it will be 5 or 10 years from now because it could all start tomorrow. Be silent before the Day of the Lord.

God gives wisdom to the wise, He reveals the deep and the hidden things. If He wanted you to tell everybody, He would have instructed you to do so. Not every one wants to know. I'm very sure about the things that I have found but I can't say that it would be for everyone to know. My real brother is a prime example, he does NOT want to talk about it. I don't think that it should be our job to throw it in people's faces at a public forum.

I had encountered a negative reaction the other day from a person and then prepared this big long post with too much evidence and too much of the specifics. Then after staring at the material for a couple of days I just couldn't send it. It was just too much, and I was glad that I didn't send it. Still, it should always be a prudent idea to keep a few weeks of supplies on hand. Battery operated radio, flashlights and granola bars. Those kinds of things.

And who knows, we might enjoy another spring and we might enjoy another summer. Why spoil it?

"It will be as eternal as the moon, my faithful witness in the sky!"

Great post thanks, glad you saw mine and motsog sites. In fact another person got in touch with me today and said they had worked out the same date too. That make 3 of us now and counting.

If you believe the Daniel prophecy that the Anti-Christ stops the sacrifices half way through the final 7 years (as I do) then of course that hasn't begun as yet because the man of sin will only be revealed after the falling away of church which also hasn't happened but I guess your take on this is different. The Quran has it's own eschatology that is a mirror image of the Bibles and plainly swaps the good guys for the bad guys. You'd do well to look into it. Also look into how close the Jews are to getting their temple re-built: New Details Emerging on the Rebuilt Altar of the Jewish Holy Temple
 
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Dave Watchman

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If you believe the Daniel prophecy that the Anti-Christ stops the sacrifices half way through the final 7 years (as I do) then of course that hasn't begun as yet because the man of sin will only be revealed after the falling away of church which also hasn't happened but I guess your take on this is different. The Quran has it's own eschatology that is a mirror image of the Bibles and plainly swaps the good guys for the bad guys. You'd do well to look into it. Also look into how close the Jews are to getting their temple re-built: New Details Emerging on the Rebuilt Altar of the Jewish Holy Temple

I'm sorry man, there's not going to be any "final 7 years". Jesus put an end to sacrifices in the middle of a week that began in the spring of AD 27. Remember when the curtain was rent?

I'm also sorry to say that there's not going to be another temple. Even if they were to put up a tent one fast, it would not be a "holy place" to fulfill the Lord's Scripture.

I'm also sorry to say that the "falling away" or the "rebellion" is a done deal. It had been snowballing for a long long time, many generations, and has now finally culminated with the abomination of desolation which now stands in the holy place where it ought not to be. That's when the man of sin took his seat in the temple of God and claimed to be God. The only thing remaining for him to do right now before the great tribulation can begin is to cause fire to fall down from Heaven in the presence of men, like on the day that Lot left out of Sodom.

"For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

"he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

So many people think this means that there has to be a rebuilt temple. It's like when Jesus said in Matthew 23: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat. Moses sat in the Temple of God and proclaimed God's Word. Thou shalt not kill, Remember the Sabbath and you shalt not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

"He shall pay no attention to the God of his fathers, or to the one beloved by women. He shall not pay attention to any other god, for he shall magnify himself above all.

"Woman" is symbolic for God's people or the church. "Jesus" is the One beloved by God's people, they being the "woman" here. Think Bride of Christ.

Jesus said:

"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat"

"The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses"

They have "seated themselves".

"so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God

"so that he sets himself up in God's temple,

"So he will seat himself in the temple of God,

He will "seat himself".

Moses was the teacher of the Law, the Word of God. He was long gone when Jesus said this so the Scribes and the Pharisees had really just taken over his job or his "seat", which was Moses' place in the Temple of God.

Our end time Antichrist has taken over God's job by influencing the shift in morality and the trend in increased lawlessness. "Anti" can also mean "in place of".

God said: "Remember the Sabbath","You shall not murder", "You shall not commit adultery" and "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination".

Antichrist says: forget about the Sabbath, legalize inappropriate contentography, legalize abortion, legalize same sex marriage and have a sexual revolution.

When the Man of Sin seeks to change these specific times and these particular Laws, he by default has magnified himself above all that is called God or is worshiped and has set himself up in God's "seat" of authority in God's Temple thereby claiming to BE God.

"Worship" comes from the word "proskuneo" and can also mean to "submit to" or "to obey". And he has been at work on this for a long time using various human agents but make no mistake it has been Satan's hand inside the glove.

"Do you know the laws of the heavens, or can you set up their rule over the earth?"

I know that this is a stressful subject for most to confront. I'm just thinking out loud here but I'm thinking that this is where we are right now with our end time Antichrist. His 42 months of authority has begun but he's in a predicament. He can't be revealed until the 5th trumpet, so he's been working continuously and as fast as he can behind the scenes to cause the rebellion to reach and exceed it's limit.

This is how he is able to rise up to the Prince of the host, to the Place of His Sanctuary. He knows the sooner he completes this task the sooner that the sudden destruction will fall from Heaven which will enable his debut. He is trying to get the censer cast down from Revelation 8. Is this how he causes fire to fall from Heaven in the presence of men? Through influencing the "falling away" or the "rebellion" on Earth he provokes the initial outbreak of God's Wrath in the form of the first trumpet.

And I do believe he has ultimately been successful in the setting up of the abomination of desolation. But I can't see him slowing his pace even until the day that he finally causes fire to fall from Heaven in the sight of men. He must surely be aware that the fallout from the first four trumpets will not only be the catalyst for enabling all the world to wander after the beast but also for the beast's mark, the formation of the ten kingdoms and all of the other unfathomable events in Revelation's narrative.

At the sounding of the 5th trumpet Satan will be allowed to manifest himself in our visible realm again as he once did back in the days of old. He once was (visible), now is not (visible) and will become (visible) again and go to his destruction. The majority of the people all over the world will do whatever he tells them to do. He will tell the world to make an image for the beast that was wounded by the sword and yet lived. This image will be a carbon copy of the church and state entity that persecuted God's people during the middle ages but this time it will be on a global scale.

As part of another study to do with the tetrads, I think that I might have found the celestial events from Joel 2:31 and Matthew 24:29. These two sets of solar and lunar eclipses act as bookends which frame in a specific number of days and seem to harmonize with the three prophetic time periods from Daniel 12.


graph-22-medium-jpg.134405


<----1260---->
<-----1290-----> 0.976744186046512
<------1335------> 0.966292134831461
<-------1372-------> 0.973032069970845

I fear that we have already entered into the appointed time of the end, which are the three prophetic time periods from Daniel 12. Not everything is as we thought it would be, but we are now approaching the final one third. Remember how old Israel was waiting for Elijah to come before the great and terrible day of the Lord. They were expecting a super hero to call fire down from the sky and burn up the Romans or something like that. Instead they got a guy in a camel hair suit and a leather belt, eating locusts. They let their preconceptions overrule the reality of their day.

They missed the appointed time of their Visitation.

I don't want to miss the appointed time of ours.

Just like in the days of John the Baptist.
 
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Guide To The Bible

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I'm sorry man, there's not going to be any "final 7 years". Jesus put an end to sacrifices in the middle of a week that began in the spring of AD 27. Remember when the curtain was rent?

I'm also sorry to say that there's not going to be another temple. Even if they were to put up a tent one fast, it would not be a "holy place" to fulfill the Lord's Scripture.

I'm also sorry to say that the "falling away" or the "rebellion" is a done deal. It had been snowballing for a long long time, many generations, and has now finally culminated with the abomination of desolation which now stands in the holy place where it ought not to be. That's when the man of sin took his seat in the temple of God and claimed to be God. The only thing remaining for him to do right now before the great tribulation can begin is to cause fire to fall down from Heaven in the presence of men, like on the day that Lot left out of Sodom.

"For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

"he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

So many people think this means that there has to be a rebuilt temple. It's like when Jesus said in Matthew 23: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat. Moses sat in the Temple of God and proclaimed God's Word. Thou shalt not kill, Remember the Sabbath and you shalt not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

"He shall pay no attention to the God of his fathers, or to the one beloved by women. He shall not pay attention to any other god, for he shall magnify himself above all.

"Woman" is symbolic for God's people or the church. "Jesus" is the One beloved by God's people, they being the "woman" here. Think Bride of Christ.

Jesus said:

"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat"

"The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses"

They have "seated themselves".

"so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God

"so that he sets himself up in God's temple,

"So he will seat himself in the temple of God,

He will "seat himself".

Moses was the teacher of the Law, the Word of God. He was long gone when Jesus said this so the Scribes and the Pharisees had really just taken over his job or his "seat", which was Moses' place in the Temple of God.

Our end time Antichrist has taken over God's job by influencing the shift in morality and the trend in increased lawlessness. "Anti" can also mean "in place of".

God said: "Remember the Sabbath","You shall not murder", "You shall not commit adultery" and "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination".

Antichrist says: forget about the Sabbath, legalize inappropriate contentography, legalize abortion, legalize same sex marriage and have a sexual revolution.

When the Man of Sin seeks to change these specific times and these particular Laws, he by default has magnified himself above all that is called God or is worshiped and has set himself up in God's "seat" of authority in God's Temple thereby claiming to BE God.

"Worship" comes from the word "proskuneo" and can also mean to "submit to" or "to obey". And he has been at work on this for a long time using various human agents but make no mistake it has been Satan's hand inside the glove.

"Do you know the laws of the heavens, or can you set up their rule over the earth?"

I know that this is a stressful subject for most to confront. I'm just thinking out loud here but I'm thinking that this is where we are right now with our end time Antichrist. His 42 months of authority has begun but he's in a predicament. He can't be revealed until the 5th trumpet, so he's been working continuously and as fast as he can behind the scenes to cause the rebellion to reach and exceed it's limit.

This is how he is able to rise up to the Prince of the host, to the Place of His Sanctuary. He knows the sooner he completes this task the sooner that the sudden destruction will fall from Heaven which will enable his debut. He is trying to get the censer cast down from Revelation 8. Is this how he causes fire to fall from Heaven in the presence of men? Through influencing the "falling away" or the "rebellion" on Earth he provokes the initial outbreak of God's Wrath in the form of the first trumpet.

And I do believe he has ultimately been successful in the setting up of the abomination of desolation. But I can't see him slowing his pace even until the day that he finally causes fire to fall from Heaven in the sight of men. He must surely be aware that the fallout from the first four trumpets will not only be the catalyst for enabling all the world to wander after the beast but also for the beast's mark, the formation of the ten kingdoms and all of the other unfathomable events in Revelation's narrative.

At the sounding of the 5th trumpet Satan will be allowed to manifest himself in our visible realm again as he once did back in the days of old. He once was (visible), now is not (visible) and will become (visible) again and go to his destruction. The majority of the people all over the world will do whatever he tells them to do. He will tell the world to make an image for the beast that was wounded by the sword and yet lived. This image will be a carbon copy of the church and state entity that persecuted God's people during the middle ages but this time it will be on a global scale.

As part of another study to do with the tetrads, I think that I might have found the celestial events from Joel 2:31 and Matthew 24:29. These two sets of solar and lunar eclipses act as bookends which frame in a specific number of days and seem to harmonize with the three prophetic time periods from Daniel 12.


graph-22-medium-jpg.134405


<----1260---->
<-----1290-----> 0.976744186046512
<------1335------> 0.966292134831461
<-------1372-------> 0.973032069970845

I fear that we have already entered into the appointed time of the end, which are the three prophetic time periods from Daniel 12. Not everything is as we thought it would be, but we are now approaching the final one third. Remember how old Israel was waiting for Elijah to come before the great and terrible day of the Lord. They were expecting a super hero to call fire down from the sky and burn up the Romans or something like that. Instead they got a guy in a camel hair suit and a leather belt, eating locusts. They let their preconceptions overrule the reality of their day.

They missed the appointed time of their Visitation.

I don't want to miss the appointed time of ours.

Just like in the days of John the Baptist.

Every Christian has a different belief about eschatology that's for sure, are you able to say who you think the AC an FP are? I would ask what date you have but I/we might get told off. Perhaps you could private message me it. I think that's okay to do.
 
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Dave Watchman

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The lady who runs this page also believes that Satan will be allowed to appear on earth:

"Very soon Satan will leave the spirit world that he has lived in for thousands of years. He will become visible to us and will claim that he is God. The Bible calls him the beast.

Names of Satan
Names of Satan and other names for Satan

Every Christian has a different belief about eschatology that's for sure, are you able to say who you think the AC an FP are?

He can be Putin one day and the pope the next. But it's Lucifer's hand that's in the glove. I'm amazed at how easy it seems to be for these heathen guys to figure it out.

Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long year
Stole many a man's soul to waste

And I was 'round when Jesus Christ
Had his moment of doubt and pain
Made damn sure that Pilate
Washed his hands and sealed his fate

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game

I stuck around St. Petersburg
When I saw it was a time for a change
Killed the czar and his ministers
Anastasia screamed in vain

I rode a tank
Held a general's rank
When the blitzkrieg raged
And the bodies stank

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name, oh yeah
Ah, what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah
(Woo woo, woo woo)

I watched with glee
While your kings and queens
Fought for ten decades
For the gods they made
(Woo woo, woo woo)

I shouted out,
"Who killed the Kennedys?"
When after all
It was you and me
(Who who, who who)

Let me please introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
And I laid traps for troubadours
Who get killed before they reached Bombay
(Woo woo, who who)

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
(Who who)
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah, get down, baby
(Who who, who who)

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
But what's confusing you
Is just the nature of my game
(Woo woo, who who)

Just as every cop is a criminal
And all the sinners saints
As heads is tails
Just call me Lucifer
'Cause I'm in need of some restraint
(Who who, who who)

So if you meet me
Have some courtesy
Have some sympathy, and some taste
(Woo woo)
Use all your well-learned politesse
Or I'll lay your soul to waste, mm yeah
(Woo woo, woo woo)

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, mm yeah
(Who who)
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, mm mean it, get down
(Woo woo, woo woo)

Woo, who
Oh yeah, get on down
Oh yeah
Oh yeah!
(Woo woo)

Tell me baby, what's my name
Tell me honey, can ya guess my name
Tell me baby, what's my name
I tell you one time, you're to blame

Oh, who
Woo, woo
Woo, who
Woo, woo
Woo, who, who
Woo, who, who
Oh, yeah

What's my name
Tell me, baby, what's my name
Tell me, sweetie, what's my name

Woo, who, who
Woo, who, who
Woo, who, who
Woo, who, who
Woo, who, who
Woo, who, who
Oh, yeah
Woo woo
Woo woo

Writer/s: KEITH RICHARDS, MICK JAGGER
 
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he-man

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Aren't you the one constantly speaking evil against our belief in a pre-trib rapture, and calling us the lost? James 4:11
Think again! 1 Thess 4:15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
 
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parousia70

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Depends how one defines 'last days', some say we've been in the last days since Christ's death and resurrection, other's say it refer's to the last 7 years of Daniels 70th week, before Jesus returns. Others say it's the last 3.5 years. And yet other's say we are in the last days now because of all the signs we are now seeing, even though we are clearly not in the last 7 years. The Bible is not 100% clear on this point but imho I tend to see it as the last 7 years but I'm not dogmatic.
The Bible is quite clear that the Last Days were underway during Christ's earthly Ministry (Hebrews 1:1-3) and that the end of the ages had arrived in the first century (1 Corinthians 10:11, Hebrews 9:26) indeed the Final Hour had arrived back then as well (1 John 2:18)

Perhaps you could explain to us why you believe these scriptures are not 100% clear to you?

(BTW The 'quote' thing hasn't worked properly?)

Don't put the forward slash (/) before the first QUOTE in the brackets - it's only for the "end quote"

What Prophesy does Jesus claim to have fulfilled here:
John 7:38
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Well, this is off of our topic of what prophecys did the apostles interpret but I have personally experienced the above and it is an amazing feeling and Jesus was literally describing what one can experience when one believes in Him. It literally feels like streams of water (living water) flowing up from within your belly and when I felt it, it poured out of the sides of my body.

However, you are quite right that Jesus fulfilled prophesy here, because this was the last and greatest day of the feast of Tabernacles - Day 22 of month 7 (Tishri). It is known as Simchat Torah, which means ‘rejoicing in the law’. As with many other notable feasts and Holy days Jesus fulfilled this day too:

John 7:37-41
37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 The one who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, will have rivers of living water flowing from his heart.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time
the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified. 40 On hearing his words, some of the people said, “Surely this man is the Prophet.” 41 Others said, “He is the Messiah.”

This was Jesus’ official public announcement that through Himself and unto all His believers that the promise of the Holy Spirit would be fulfilled.

But what Living waters prophesy from the OT do you believe Jesus fulfilled here? You forgot to cite it.

Also, what event do you believe fulfilled THIS prophesy?:
11. "'When the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?' '....He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers, who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.' '....Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it.' ....When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Matt. 21:40-41,43,45)

This is off our topic too but..

As Jesus says the Pharisees were those wicked vineyard owners and this prophesy is a treble prophesy which had a partial fulfilment in 70 AD when God allowed the Jews nation to be almost destroyed and the time of the gentiles and the church began.

So "the Owner of the Vineyard" came in 70 AD and destroyed them?
How?

The second fulfilment of this prophecy will be when Jesus returns and destroys what remains on Earth to make way for His Millennium rule. The third and last time will be at the end of the 1000 years when God makes a new Heaven and a Earth for us.

Where do you get this teaching from the scripture in question?

I've read and re read it and I do not see how what you just said here is being taught in Matthew 21:40-45.
 
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Guide To The Bible

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The Bible is quite clear that the Last Days were underway during Christ's earthly Ministry (Hebrews 1:1-3) and that the end of the ages had arrived in the first century (1 Corinthians 10:11, Hebrews 9:26) indeed the Final Hour had arrived back then as well (1 John 2:18)

Perhaps you could explain to us why you believe these scriptures are not 100% clear to you?

When you say 'us' do you mean 'you'?

Yes, the disciples thought it was that last days that is clear and I agree with that because they really thought Jesus was about to appear at any moment but this was a wrong assumption (which is another reason why I am trying to get you to understand that the apostles did not provide very much in way of interpretation of prophesy, you are proving my point without realising it, but thanks because that is another time the apostles tried to interpret prophecy but in this case they got it wrong) 2000 years on and we know better with hind sight that the last days are now up on us. If any of the disciples had of been able to work out from scripture that mankind had to wait another 2000 years (which is possible btw) they would have said so and would not have made an incorrect assumption. But if you want to think that 2000 year isn't long to wait then think about that next time you get frustrated because you're having to wait for something - like being kept on hold on the phone or in a queue etc.

Don't put the forward slash (/) before the first QUOTE in the brackets - it's only for the "end quote"
Thanks

But what Living waters prophesy from the OT do you believe Jesus fulfilled here? You forgot to cite it.

Isaiah 12:3
Therefore you will joyously draw water From the springs of salvation.

Isaiah 44:3
For I will pour out water on the thirsty land And streams on the dry ground; I will pour out My Spirit on your offspring And My blessing on your descendants;

But if (and I hope you do) ever get to experience what that feels like it is amazing, I have only felt it once however.

So "the Owner of the Vineyard" came in 70 AD and destroyed them?
How?

Preterists hold that ancient Israel found its fulfilment in the Christian church at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Although I do not agree with this view (either) I merely mentioned it as it is recognised by some Christians and in some ways it is a taste of what is to come.

Where do you get this teaching from the scripture in question?

I've read and re read it and I do not see how what you just said here is being taught in Matthew 21:40-45.

That does surprise me? Especially when applied to Christ's return. Why can't you see that? He (and God) are the owners of the vineyard (the World)

So, not to wander off the topic of our discussion, the other time the disciples tried to interpret prophecy that I can think of, was when they asked about Elijah:

Mathew 17
10The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?” 11Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” 13Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.

The disciple were trying to understand why they had just seen Elijah while the prophecy's said that Elijah was supposed to appear before the Messiah. Jesus explains that John the Baptist was Elijah but also that Elijah would come again to restore all things before the great and terrible day of the Lord. This is another time that the apostles show their inability to interpret prophecy correctly.

And that is about all the times I can think of when the apostles tried to interpret prophecy. As we can see it is not much. As said, the average Christian knows more than the apostles did about interpreting prophecy.
 
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Psalm3704

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They are the martyrs, murdered for their faith. Their souls are kept under the heavenly Altar, Revelation 6:9-11 and they are allowed to cry out at times.
Plainly obvious from Revelation 19:2, where they praise God for taking vengeance for their blood.
I repeat: Any rapture to heaven is wrong and unbiblical.

It doesn't matter if you think the martyrs in heaven are martyrs from the past or martyrs being kill today. or the dead in-Christ or those in-Christ alive at the time of the rapture, the fact is the bible clearly refutes your foolishness about no one going to heaven.


Revelation 19:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lordb our God!

Revelation 7:9-11 New King James Version (NKJV)
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,


.
This is not an earthly scene O'foolish One. Bible even said heaven.








.
 
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Psalm3704

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Then open your mind to understand the Scriptures

It's obvious who needs help with scriptures. Read below.

John says no one except Christ has ever gone to heaven I think you have not only struck out, you have need to get milk to get you anywhere.

No John did not say "no one except Christ has ever gone to heaven."

Who was talking to Nicodemus? You think John? :doh:

Isn't it amazing you think John was the one talking to Nicodemus. ROFL!!!

John 3:10-13 New King James Version (NKJV)
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

These are basic Sunday school materials. How is it that you do not know who was talking to Nicodemus? Are you not the teacher of Israel and do not know these things?

Revelation 11:11-12 New King James Version (NKJV)
11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.

Are you not the teacher of Israel and do not know these things? Matthew 3:10.


Think again! 1 Thess 4:15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Ahh no! You're not fooling anyone ripping a passage out of context and use a different translation to mislead readers into thinking Christians will be left on earth till the second coming.

This is what 1 Thessalonians 4:15 means. It merely tells you those alive in Christ does not ascend into the air to meet Christ before the dead in Christ going up first.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (CJB) When we say this, we base it on the Lord's own word: we who remain alive when the Lord comes will certainly not take precedence over those who have died.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (GNT) W_ hat we are teaching you now is the Lord's teaching: we who are alive on the day the Lord comes will not go ahead of those who have died.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (KJV) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (NCV) What we tell you now is the Lord's own message. We who are living when the Lord comes again will not go before those who have already died.

___________________________________

This is what 1 Thessalonians 4:15 means. It merely tells you those alive in Christ does not ascend into the air to meet Christ before the dead in Christ.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Failed at reading or failed at false teachings? Are you not the teacher of Israel and do not know these things? Matthew 3:10. You're gonna have to do much better than this, bud!










.







.
 
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he-man

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No John did not say "no one except Christ has ever gone to heaven."
HUH?
John 3:12-13 New King James Version (NKJV) 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
Revelation 11:11-12 New King James Version (NKJV) 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.
Can you not understand "FUTURE" tense? Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Ahh no! You're not fooling anyone ripping a passage out of context and use a different translation to mislead readers into thinking Christians will be left on earth till the second coming.This is what 1 Thessalonians 4:15 means. It merely tells you those alive in Christ does not ascend into the air to meet Christ before the dead in Christ going up first.
G4035 περιλοιποι to be left over, rest, remainder, remnant
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 New King James Version (NKJV) 17 Then we who are alive and to be left over shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. [/quote] Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants] Τοῦτο γὰρ ὑμῖν λέγομεν ἐν λόγῳ κυρίου, ὅτι ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι εἰς τὴν παρουσίαν τοῦ κυρίου οὐ μὴ φθάσωμεν τοὺς κοιμηθέντας·
2 Chronicles 35:15 And the singers the sons of Asaph were in their place, according to the commandment of David, and Asaph, and Heman, and Jeduthun the king's seer; and the porters waited at every gate; they might not depart from their service; for their brethren the Levites prepared for them.
 
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parousia70

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When you say 'us' do you mean 'you'?
Me and our readers. Us.
For every back and forth interaction between two members on CF, there are always a handful of lurkers who are following along, not only the other posters in the thread, but many folks who simply lurk in the background, gleaning what they can from the debate as they study the different views being put forth.

Mostly I post for them. It's usually not my desire to sway the person I'm debating from their view. Indeed I prefer the other debater not be swayed, for it provides a better contrast for the readers to draw their own conclusions.

Yes, the disciples thought it was that last days that is clear and I agree with that because they really thought Jesus was about to appear at any moment

Agreed. and they had good reason, for their master specifically instructed them to harbor this expectation and "be ready". (Matthew 24:44)

but this was a wrong assumption (which is another reason why I am trying to get you to understand that the apostles did not provide very much in way of interpretation of prophesy, you are proving my point without realising it, but thanks because that is another time the apostles tried to interpret prophecy but in this case they got it wrong)

They expected this because Christ taught of a coming soon and at hand in their lifetimes. Jesus spoke of a coming in their generation (Matt 24:34/23:36), before all the apostles finished their preaching and died (Mt 16:27-28/John 21:22-23/Matt 10:23). St. John said the vision of Revelation was to come to pass shortly, for the time was at hand (Rev 1:1,3). St. Paul said Christ was to come "in a very little while...and would not delay" (Heb 10:37). St. James told his flock that "the coming of the Lord is at hand...behold, the judge is standing at the door (James 5:9). St. Peter said "the end of all things is at hand...the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God" (1 Peter 4:7,17). St. Paul said the end of the age had come upon them (1 Cor 10:11).

If Christ and the apostles erred on this teaching, what other teachings do you think they might have erred on?

The resurrection of Jesus?
Doctrines of Grace through faith?
Baptism?

How can you be sure they weren't wrong about everything, if you'r doctrine is WHOLLY DEPENDENT on the idea that they were 100% wrong about such an important issue as the this??

There are over 100 verses in the NT testifying about the sure and certain expectation of a first century fulfillment.

What other doctrine taught by Christ and the apostles over 100 times do you believe they were 100% wrong about?

2000 years on and we know better with hind sight that the last days are now up on us.

I disagree. The Apostles knew better what they taught than anyone before or since.

For sure, Christ and all the apostles understood that the end of the Old Covenant world counted as his coming in that generation.


Isaiah 12:3
Therefore you will joyously draw water From the springs of salvation.

Isaiah 44:3
For I will pour out water on the thirsty land And streams on the dry ground; I will pour out My Spirit on your offspring And My blessing on your descendants;

Interesting.
What about this one:
And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur. (Zechariah 14:8)


Preterists hold that ancient Israel found its fulfilment in the Christian church at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

That's because the Bible teaches it.

That does surprise me? Especially when applied to Christ's return. Why can't you see that? He (and God) are the owners of the vineyard (the World)

What I don't see is the "triple fulfillment" theory you are positing.... where in this passage is it taught that it gets fulfilled exactly 3 times in the succession you laid out?

What I do see is Christ promising that the Pharisees of the First century were to be destroyed at "the coming of the lord of the Vineyard".

That they were destroyed is something we both agree with Christ on.
That they were destroyed at "the coming of the lord of the vineyard" is something you apparently do not agree with Christ on.
Is it your position that Christ was wrong about that?

The two events are inseparable in the mind of Christ. Yet your theology must find a way to separate them, so you have inserted this "Triple Fulfillment" theory where no such thing is taught.

I believe you should let the scripture inform your view, instead of attempting to mold the scripture to suit your view.

Any theological position that rests on the notion that Jesus and the apostles were in error ought be rejected outright.
 
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Guide To The Bible

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Me and our readers. Us.
For every back and forth interaction between two members on CF, there are always a handful of lurkers who are following along, not only the other posters in the thread, but many folks who simply lurk in the background, gleaning what they can from the debate as they study the different views being put forth.

Mostly I post for them. It's usually not my desire to sway the person I'm debating from their view. Indeed I prefer the other debater not be swayed, for it provides a better contrast for the readers to draw their own conclusions.

What I meant is your presumption that 'us' implied you had a posse of lurkers behind you that where waiting for me to answer you and your 'followers' questions. You sounded a bit full of yourself imo. Any lurkers no doubt agree and disagree with both of us on number of points we've made.

Agreed. and they had good reason for their master taught them this expectation.

They expected this because Christ taught of a coming soon and at hand in their lifetimes. Jesus spoke of a coming in their generation (Matt 24:34/23:36), before all the apostles finished their preaching and died (Mt 16:27-28/John 21:22-23/Matt 10:23). St. John said the vision of Revelation was to come to pass shortly, for the time was at hand (Rev 1:1,3). St. Paul said Christ was to come "in a very little while...and would not delay" (Heb 10:37). St. James told his flock that "the coming of the Lord is at hand...behold, the judge is standing at the door (James 5:9). St. Peter said "the end of all things is at hand...the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God" (1 Peter 4:7,17). St. Paul said the end of the age had come upon them (1 Cor 10:11).

Jesus never said he was going to come back in their life time, or do you think Jesus was misleading them? The truth is, as I am trying to get you to understand, is that the apostles misunderstood what Jesus said about when His return would be. Just as you have misunderstood this too, even with 2000 years of hindsight.[/QUOTE]

If Christ and the apostles erred on this teaching, what other teachings do you think they might have erred on?

The resurrection of Jesus?
Doctrines of Grace through faith?
Baptism?

This is just trying to put words into my mouth, please don't start accusing me of things I haven't said. That is what the devil tries to get people to do. Don't fall into that trap.[/QUOTE]

How can you be sure they weren't wrong about everything, if you'r doctrine is WHOLLY DEPENDENT on the idea that they were 100% wrong about such an important issue as the this??

I didn't say that either, and I'm not liking your tone btw. I said, and have repeated now many times that the apostles hardly interpreted any prophesy, as I have been explaining to you. I have also said that in other areas such as spiritual gifting for example they were better than just about any Christian since[/QUOTE]

There are over 100 verses in the NT testifying about the sure and certain expectation of a first century fulfillment.

What other doctrine taught by Christ and the apostles over 100 times do you believe they were 100% wrong about?
Again I would point out the Jesus never taught that and He did not return in their life times. If you think otherwise then that is madness.[/QUOTE]

I disagree. The Apostles knew better what they taught than anyone before or since.

As far as interpreting prophesy (which is the topic of our discussion that I have been trying to keep you to) is concerned then NO, they were of little effect.

For sure, Christ and all the apostles understood that the end of the Old Covenant world counted as his coming in that generation.

Yes they misunderstood the prophecys.

Interesting.
What about this one:
And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur. (Zechariah 14:8)

That relates to the what will happen in the Millennial reign to Jerusalem and the surrounding area.[/QUOTE]

That's because the Bible teaches it.

So you're a Preterist. Well that explain that then.

What I don't see is the "triple fulfillment" theory you are positing.... where in this passage is it taught that it gets fulfilled exactly 3 times in the succession you laid out?

The owner of the vinyard is Jesus/God. The World is the vinyard, The tenants were the Jews in 70AD, The non-Christians at Jesus second coming (soon) and all the ungodly humans, demons and fallen angels at the end of the millennial reign.

What I do see is Christ promising that the Pharisees of the First century were to be destroyed at "the coming of the lord of the Vineyard".

Well that would mean you think Titus and Vespasian were Jesus and God?

That they were destroyed is something we both agree with Christ on.
That they were destroyed at "the coming of the lord of the vineyard" is something you apparently do not agree with Christ on.
Is it your position that Christ was wrong about that?

This did not make enough grammatical sense for me to understand what you mean exactly. But Jesus did not come in 70 AD.

The two events are inseparable in the mind of Christ. Yet your theology must find a way to separate them, so you have inserted this "Triple Fulfillment" theory where no such thing is taught.

I Disagree.

I believe you should let the scripture inform your view, instead of attempting to mold the scripture to suit your view.

I believe you are misinterpreting scripture.

Any theological position that rests on the notion that Jesus and the apostles were in error ought be rejected outright.

Your accusing me again of something I have not said. Please try not to do this with people it is not only annoying it is sinful. i never said Jesus was in error. I said (for the umpteenth time now; That the apostles hardly interpreted any prophecys.

So to sum up the only prophecys the apostles interpreted were:

Peter repeated what Joel said and applied it to the day of Pentecost but not its final fulfilment that's yet to come, so even this doesn't count towards end times prophecy yet to be fulfilled:

Paul said:

The man of sin will call himself god

A rebellion (falling away) will happen before the man of sin is revealed.

Something is holding back the man of sin from being revealed.

A powerful delusion will cause the rebellion (falling away)

And the disciples said Elijah would come before Jesus returns.

And that's it.

Not much.
 
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parousia70

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What I meant is your presumption that 'us' implied you had a posse of lurkers behind you that where waiting for me to answer you and your 'followers' questions.

Glad I could clarify it for you.

You sounded a bit full of yourself imo.

No more full of myself than you sound of yourself claiming to know more than the apostles about sound Doctrine.

Any lurkers no doubt agree and disagree with both of us on number of points we've made.
Correct

Jesus never said he was going to come back in their life time

Really?
Ask yourself who is the "You" in all these passages?

Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

“Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.


Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

or do you think Jesus was misleading them?

Seems to me that would have to be YOUR conclusion to the above passages, no? What other option is there?

The truth is, as I am trying to get you to understand, is that the apostles misunderstood what Jesus said about when His return would be. Just as you have misunderstood this too, even with 2000 years of hindsight.

I submit it is you with the misunderstanding.
I stand with the Apostles.

This is just trying to put words into my mouth, please don't start accusing me of things I haven't said.

But you have:
P70:For sure, Christ and all the apostles understood that the end of the Old Covenant world counted as his coming in that generation.
GTTB:Yes they misunderstood the prophecys.


Again I would point out the Jesus never taught that and He did not return in their life times. If you think otherwise then that is madness.

You are demonstrably wrong, as I have evidenced above.

That relates to the what will happen in the Millennial reign to Jerusalem and the surrounding area.

I disagree.
Christ Fulfilled this verse excatly as He claimed in the first century.

So you're a Preterist. Well that explain that then.
All Christians are preterist, we only vary by degree.

The owner of the vinyard is Jesus/God. The World is the vinyard, The tenants were the Jews in 70AD

And Christ told them they would be destroyed by the "coming of the Lord of the Vineyard" Yet you continue to disagree with Christ on this.

The non-Christians at Jesus second coming (soon)

It's always soon isn't it?

Again, Fallible internet guy "Guide to the Bible" says it's "soon" today.
Infallible, inspired apostles said it was "soon" 2000 years ago.

Forgive me for siding with the infallible guys....

Well that would mean you think Titus and Vespasian were Jesus and God?

Do you have any knowledge of Gods previous "comings" in OT times, and the kind of language the prophets used to describe them?

Christ's Coming was to be precisely in the manner and tradition of Yahweh's Old-Testament-era comings. We have countless examples of the Father coming in His great glory during the Old Testamental period (be sure to note the graphic, physical descriptions and explicit "visual" connotations of Yahweh's comings, noticing how the same language is used to describe the Coming of Christ):

[On Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai] Jehovah came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them (Deut 33:2; cf. Neh 9:13-15; Hab 3:3-16)

[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because you are turbulent more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my ordinances, neither have done after the ordinances of the nations that are round about you; therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you before the eyes of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations (Ez 5:7-9)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5) Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others: Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16). Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20). Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34).

This did not make enough grammatical sense for me to understand what you mean exactly. But Jesus did not come in 70 AD.

Of course He did, exactly in the manner of The Father's Old testament era comings.

Your accusing me again of something I have not said. Please try not to do this with people it is not only annoying it is sinful. i never said Jesus was in error.

But you are saying that, not only directly as I pointed out above, but by logical inference. Your position DEMANDS Christ was in error, my position affirms they were not.
 
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Guide To The Bible

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Glad I could clarify it for you.



No more full of myself than you sound of yourself claiming to know more than the apostles about sound Doctrine.


Correct



Really?
Ask yourself who is the "You" in all these passages?

Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

“Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.


Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.



Seems to me that would have to be YOUR conclusion to the above passages, no? What other option is there?



I submit it is you with the misunderstanding.
I stand with the Apostles.



But you have:





You are demonstrably wrong, as I have evidenced above.



I disagree.
Christ Fulfilled this verse excatly as He claimed in the first century.


All Christians are preterist, we only vary by degree.



And Christ told them they would be destroyed by the "coming of the Lord of the Vineyard" Yet you continue to disagree with Christ on this.



It's always soon isn't it?

Again, Fallible internet guy "Guide to the Bible" says it's "soon" today.
Infallible, inspired apostles said it was "soon" 2000 years ago.

Forgive me for siding with the infallible guys....



Do you have any knowledge of Gods previous "comings" in OT times, and the kind of language the prophets used to describe them?

Christ's Coming was to be precisely in the manner and tradition of Yahweh's Old-Testament-era comings. We have countless examples of the Father coming in His great glory during the Old Testamental period (be sure to note the graphic, physical descriptions and explicit "visual" connotations of Yahweh's comings, noticing how the same language is used to describe the Coming of Christ):

[On Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai] Jehovah came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them (Deut 33:2; cf. Neh 9:13-15; Hab 3:3-16)

[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because you are turbulent more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my ordinances, neither have done after the ordinances of the nations that are round about you; therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you before the eyes of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations (Ez 5:7-9)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5) Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others: Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16). Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20). Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34).



Of course He did, exactly in the manner of The Father's Old testament era comings.



But you are saying that, not only directly as I pointed out above, but by logical inference. Your position DEMANDS Christ was in error.

You're still accusing me of saying things I didn't say and still not sticking to the point I was and have now made. You also think Jesus has already returned which is bizarre. You seem to have an odd understanding of many things? Anyway I have proved my point that the only prophecys the apostles interpreted were:

The man of sin will call himself god.

A rebellion (falling away) will happen before the man of sin is revealed.

Something is holding back the man of sin from being revealed.

A powerful delusion will cause the rebellion (falling away).

And the disciples said Elijah would come before Jesus returns.

And that is it. Thanks for the discussion.
 
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parousia70

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You're still accusing me of saying things I didn't say and still not sticking to the point I was and have now made.

I have shown the forum that you have said it directly, and that your position logically infers it at well.
I'm confident our readers can see this.

You also think Jesus has already returned which is bizarre.

AD70 was "the coming of the Lord of the Vineyard" and was certainly the Coming of Christ that the apostles expected and prophesied was soon coming, at hand, and about to take place in their day.

Rejecting this fact and inventing a 2000 year "gap" and de-literalizing and rejecting the accuracy of the time statements where no such gap exists in scripture is what is Bizarre. It is not born of any scriptural mandate, it is born of a desire to make scripture conform to your bias against a 1st century fulfillment.

Thanks for the discussion.

Always a pleasure.
Thank you for providing ample opportunity to demonstrate the Biblical validity of my views as compared to yours.
 
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parousia70

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The man of sin will call himself god.

Ok

A rebellion (falling away) will happen before the man of sin is revealed.

See the Book of Jude for proclamation of that rebellion having happened in the first century

Something is holding back the man of sin from being revealed.

According to Paul, he was alive and being held back from his takeover of the temple in the 1st century and the Thessalonians knew who was Holding him back at that time:

A powerful delusion will cause the rebellion (falling away).

Again, see Jude, Book of, All.

And the disciples said Elijah would come before Jesus returns.

Chapter and verse?

Jesus said John the Baptist WAS Elijah.
 
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Psalm3704

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HUH?
John 3:12-13 New King James Version (NKJV) 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Exactly! You just don't get it.

So you think John was writing about himself in John 3 huh? :doh:

John says no one except Christ has ever gone to heaven I think you have not only struck out, you have need to get milk to get you anywhere.
No John did not say "no one except Christ has ever gone to heaven."

Who was talking to Nicodemus? You think John? :doh:

Isn't it amazing you think John was the one talking to Nicodemus. ROFL!!!

John 3:10-13 New King James Version (NKJV)
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

These are basic Sunday school materials. How is it that you do not know who was talking to Nicodemus? Are you not the teacher of Israel and do not know these things?

Revelation 11:11-12 New King James Version (NKJV)
11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.

Are you not the teacher of Israel and do not know these things? Matthew 3:10.



Can you not understand "FUTURE" tense?

Exactly my point about John 3:13.

You're in the dark with all this.

John 3:13 New King James Version (NKJV)
No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.


Matthew 27:50-53 New King James Version (NKJV)
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.











.
 
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he-man

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Exactly! You just don't get it. No John did not say "no one except Christ has ever gone to heaven." Who was talking to Nicodemus? You think John?
No. I was quoting the exact Scripture to show what was said and not WHO said it. DUH? Are you trampling the Holy City? Christ was not coming the second time he had not yet ascended, DUH? Has the END come yet? DUH? Has he handed over the Kingdom to GOD? DUH? What does “He also descended to the lower parts of the earth?” mean?
Matthew 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
Revelation 11:2 But exclude the courtyard outside the temple. Do not measure it, because it has been given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.
Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God. 1 Corinthians 15:23 But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him. 24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power.
1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.
The graves were opened, and many bodies of saints which slept, arose. To whom they appeared, in what manner, and how they disappeared, we are not told; and we must not desire to be wise above what is written.
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
Fritzsche, who, however, brackets the phrase as a doubtful reading. ἔγερσιν occurs here only in N. T. 1454 ἔγερσιν Expositor's Greek Testament
whether they again died or ascended to heaven, is not revealed, and conjecture is vain. Barnes' Notes on the Bible
An instance of real apparition [vision]. Bengel's Gnomen
it was fitting that "the Prince of Life … should be the First that should rise from the dead" (Ac 26:23; 1Co 15:20, 23; Col 1:18; Re 1:5).
"till the trumpet shall sound." Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
"Christ the firstfruits, afterwards they that are Christ's." (1 Peter 3:19) when he descended into hell Pulpit Commentary Ephesians 4:9 What does “He ascended” mean, except that He also descended to the lower parts of the earth?
Ezekiel 31:14 For they have all been given over to death, to the earth beneath, among the sons of men, with those who go down to the pit."
John 3:13
No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven--the Son of Man.
Acts 2:34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, "'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand 35until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.
1 Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign, till he has put all enemies under his feet.
Christ; for he rose as the first fruits, as the first begotten of the dead, and the firstborn from the dead; for he was the first that was raised to an immortal life. Rev 1:5 and from Jesus the Messiah, the witness, the faithful one, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To the one who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood






 
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he-man

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Exactly! You just don't get it .No John did not say "no one except Christ has ever gone to heaven."
Christ was not coming the second time he had not yet ascended, DUH? Has the END come yet? DUH? Has he handed over the Kingdom to GOD? DUH? What does “He also descended to the lower parts of the earth?” mean?
Matthew 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
Revelation 11:2 But exclude the courtyard outside the temple. Do not measure it, because it has been given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.
Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God. 1 Corinthians 15:23 But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him. 24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power.
1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.
The graves were opened, and many bodies of saints which slept, arose. To whom they appeared, in what manner, and how they disappeared, we are not told; and we must not desire to be wise above what is written.
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
Fritzsche, who, however, brackets the phrase as a doubtful reading. ἔγερσιν occurs here only in N. T. 1454 ἔγερσιν Expositor's Greek Testament
whether they again died or ascended to heaven, is not revealed, and conjecture is vain. Barnes' Notes on the Bible
An instance of real apparition [vision]. Bengel's Gnomen
it was fitting that "the Prince of Life … should be the First that should rise from the dead" (Ac 26:23; 1Co 15:20, 23; Col 1:18; Re 1:5).
"till the trumpet shall sound." Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
"Christ the firstfruits, afterwards they that are Christ's." (1 Peter 3:19) when he descended into hell Pulpit Commentary Ephesians 4:9 What does “He ascended” mean, except that He also descended to the lower parts of the earth?
Ezekiel 31:14 For they have all been given over to death, to the earth beneath, among the sons of men, with those who go down to the pit."
John 3:13
No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven--the Son of Man.
Acts 2:34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, "'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand 35until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.
1 Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign, till he has put all enemies under his feet.
Christ; for he rose as the first fruits, as the first begotten of the dead, and the firstborn from the dead; for he was the first that was raised to an immortal life. Rev 1:5 and from Jesus the Messiah, the witness, the faithful one, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To the one who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood
So, by this I quote:
2 Chronicles 35:15 And the singers the sons of Asaph were in their place, according to the commandment of David, and Asaph, and]u] Heman, and Jeduthun the king's seer;[/u] and the porters waited at every gate; they might not depart from their service; for their brethren the Levites prepared for them.
 
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