The LAW Paul vs. Jesus

Athée

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I recognize that Jesus' words can both a near-term and far-term application. To the Jew living before the Old Covenant ended, they were to live by faith under that covenant; to those living afterward under the New Covenant, they are to live by faith under that covenant. As the scriptures say, the righteous shall live by faith. (Try to connect this post with my previous post concerning Luke 1:6 and Malachi 3:18.)
Sure, in the near term he said obey the laws and teach others to do the same. Helpfully he also told them how long he expected this to continue... Until heaven and earth pass away. So while you may be able to find other good support for your position, this argument does not go through.
 
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DingDing

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Sure, in the near term he said obey the laws and teach others to do the same. Helpfully he also told them how long he expected this to continue... Until heaven and earth pass away. So while you may be able to find other good support for your position, this argument does not go through.

He said, "till all is fulfilled." [Matthew 5:18]. What you appear to subbornly refuse to consider is that Jesus fulfilled (closed) one covenant so that He could initiate a better one. Like I said before, you need to do that bible search on the word "covenant" that I mentioned previously. Until you do that, this conversation is done. You have much to learn and appear to have no desire to do so.
 
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Athée

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Well there was a prohibition against Hebrews marrying Gentiles but David's grandmother was a Gentile.

"You shall not marry them (the gentiles, about which the Bible speaks in the previous verses), you not give your daughter to their son and you shall not take his daughter for your son." (Deut. 7:3)​

Let me describe a scene from Nehemiah, the Israelites have returned to Jerusalem and nearly completed the Temple and Wall rebuilding. There’s just one problem, they are marrying foreign wives, so they all have to come to Jerusalem, stand outside the Temple in the rain, and repent:

Then all the men of Judah and Benjamin gathered themselves together unto Jerusalem within three days… and all the people sat in the street of the house of God, trembling because of this matter, and for the great rain. And Ezra the priest stood up, and said unto them, Ye have transgressed, and have taken strange wives, to increase the trespass of Israel. Now therefore make confession unto the Lord God of your fathers, and do his pleasure: and separate yourselves from the people of the land, and from the strange wives. (Neh. 10:9-11)
Then there's Rahab the prostitute that took the spies in, in the time of Joshua, in the city of Jericho. She is not only in Jesus family line but also mentioned in the Hebrews 11 hall of faith line up.

These two prohibitions were somehow related and if there is one thing God complained about in the Old Testament is when they would draw near with their lips but their hearts where far from him. The oblations, sacrifices, sacred convocations, even circumcision and the Sabbath God set aside because what is partial must give way to what is complete. Just like one of these days creation will wear out like an old pair of jeans:

And: “In the beginning, Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You remain; They will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed; but You remain the same, and Your years will never end.” (Heb. 1:11)
I don't think we are going to need any Bibles in heaven, because now we know in part but one day we will know him, even as we are known:

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.(1 Cor. 13:10-12)
The temporal (temporary) must give way to the eternal, the shadow to the substance, the partial to the complete. The biggest problem with the dietary laws isn't that they were a bad idea, it's because they spent all their time keeping the minute details and couldn't hear the weightier elements of the law.

But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." (Matt. 9:13)
They want to know why Jesus is hanging around with sinners, actually it's because the sinners were repenting and those strictly obeying every minute detail to the point of obsessive, compulsive narcissism that hated him. The Pharisees would fast twice a week minimum, Tuesdays and Thursdays like clock work and most of them would have been better off cooking out. The Sabbath was never more then a day when everyone, including slaves and beasts of burden did no work. Guess what they did? Turned it into a works righteousness.

What changed? They were missing the whole point. So enjoy your pork chops, I know I do.

Grace and peace,
Mark
Forgive me if you have already said this but is there any indication that God thought the law was imperfect? This seems to be a key idea in your view. Is it because the law was necessarily temporal, this would mean eventually it would end but it seems to me that doesn't help us since it was said to be in effect until heaven and earth pass away, which hasn't happened yet.
Is it because there are deeper principles than the law? It seems like obeying the deeper principle would end up in obeying any specific instance where God commanded a specific thing?
When you say the thing that changed was that humans were getting it wrong are you saying that the unclean nature of catfish was dependent in some way on how humans understood and acted on their understanding of its unclean status?
 
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Athée

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He said, "till all is fulfilled." [Matthew 5:18]. What you appear to subbornly refuse to consider is that Jesus fulfilled (closed) one covenant so that He could initiate a better one. Like I said before, you need to do that bible search on the word "covenant" that I mentioned previously. Until you do that, this conversation is done. You have much to learn and appear to have no desire to do so.
I am considering it, the problem is that the argument you are putting forward for me to consider seems flawed.
You cited the very last phrase of the verse "till all is fulfilled"/accomplished without addressing that the phrase you separated from it's context is both grammatically and ideologically linked to the entire verse. The passage does not say, until all is accomplished, only. If it did you could make the case you are making that it meant until Jesus died and resurrected. But it actually includes the passing away of heaven and earth as part of this "all" that needs to be fulfilled before any, even the least, part of the law can pass. This is not in conflict with Jesus beginning a new covenant at his resurrection, it some means that the law is as complete and as operant as it was in the old covenant.

Here is the verse in its entirety.

For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Matthew 5:18 ESV
Matthew 5:18, English Standard Version (ESV) For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
 
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miknik5

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Could not help but notice that you did not address Luke 1:6. So, no mention of a righteous person there? Okay, what then about Malachi 3:18? It would seem God has declared a great many people as being righteous. Did God give any indication in either passage as to why these people were declared righteous?

I can assure you that on That day, both Elizabeth and Zechariah and anyone whom GOD has revealed HIS SON to, will not be professing themselves

In fact, I can venture a guess that even those who did not believe won't be opening their mouths to profess themselves either
 
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Athée

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I will wait until you have been able to accomplish this study, and then we will see where this goes from there.
Fair enough, in the meantime did you want to conceded that your argument from Matthew 5 was flawed or do you see an error in my reasoning when the whole verse is considered in context as opposed to simply focusing on the final phrase?
 
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miknik5

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sit at my right hand UNTIL I make a footstool of your enemies

You must concede that HE did not come to bring peace but division and there are still enemies of THE CROSS

That is why the LAW will not pass UNTIL all has been accomplished because all don't know how to handle the LAW rightly having NOT been born of HIS SPIRIT

They do not rightly combine THE SPIRIT of the law with the written law and run the risk of blaspheming HIS NAME by what they do or do not do


Which is why I asked you if the 613 laws can you make a right judgement

And as wel reminded you that MERCY covers a multitude of sins


Not by power or by might sayeth the LORD but by MY SPIRIT

It's just that some do not know of whose SPIRIT they truly are of
 
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DingDing

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I can assure you that on That day, both Elizabeth and Zechariah and anyone whom GOD has revealed HIS SON to, will not be professing themselves

In fact, I can venture a guess that even those who did not believe won't be opening their mouths to profess themselves either

I can see that you cannot address Luke 1:6 or Malachi 3:18. If you don't have an easy answer, you should ask yourself why?
 
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DingDing

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Fair enough, in the meantime did you want to conceded that your argument from Matthew 5 was flawed or do you see an error in my reasoning when the whole verse is considered in context as opposed to simply focusing on the final phrase?
I concede that you have much homework to do.
 
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mark kennedy

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Forgive me if you have already said this but is there any indication that God thought the law was imperfect? This seems to be a key idea in your view. Is it because the law was necessarily temporal, this would mean eventually it would end but it seems to me that doesn't help us since it was said to be in effect until heaven and earth pass away, which hasn't happened yet.
Is it because there are deeper principles than the law? It seems like obeying the deeper principle would end up in obeying any specific instance where God commanded a specific thing?
When you say the thing that changed was that humans were getting it wrong are you saying that the unclean nature of catfish was dependent in some way on how humans understood and acted on their understanding of its unclean status?
Not eating pork (Deut. 14:3,8) and not wearing clothes made with two kinds of material (Deut. 22:11), sowing two kinds of seed in the Vineyard (Deuteronomy 22:9) are not moral issues like sexual immorality, lying and murder. As far as that goes Jesus never said murder was fine he said starting a fight with you brother was worse and no where near as bad as calling him fool. He never said Adultery was perfectly fine now he said looking at a woman with lust is adultery and talked about plucking your eye out if it causes you to sin, cut your hand off if it causes you to sin. Why? First you look, then you reach, then you take. True sanctification is from the inside out and not everything in the Old Testament was a moral issue.

God's nature never changes but diet and clothing restrictions do. Sure wish Christians asked questions like these.
 
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miknik5

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I can see that you cannot address Luke 1:6 or Malachi 3:18. If you don't have an easy answer, you should ask yourself why?
Sir no one will be justified by the law

In fact according to the WORD given to those under the Law ALL were declared unclean

Haggai 2
 
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miknik5

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Another thing...ding ding....

John came as a witness and a herald. And he preached water baptism to all in_______

Those who believed were baptized


What did this water baptism signify? And to whom was John's message?

To Gentiles?
 
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miknik5

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You know, it is sad when someone can't address a few simple verses like the two I mentioned. They should make one think, and be open to discussion, but that is evidently not the case here.
You know one of the things that you are doing distorting and Leaving out portions of what was really said speaks for itself that one is more interested in subtle lies rather than TRUTH

And ding ding

It will make others think also if your dishonesty and lack of integrity


I did answer your question

You just did not like the response

John 13 tells that those who want to have a part with THE SON of GOD who came forth from GOD and into the world will allow and want that HE wash us

Otherwise we truly do not have a part with HIM

You do know what washes us

Correct?

But not all's "houses" are marked
And those whose "houses" are not marked will not be passed over
 
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Bible Highlighter

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I guess my wife should divorce me then... Oh wait 1 Corinthians 7:15 never mind.

1 Corinthians 7:15 does not undo what is said in 2 Corinthians 6:14. It still means what it says. 1 Corinthians 7:15 is about a marital situation between two people. They are joined together in marriage (Which changes the scenario because they made a promise to each other in being joined together as one flesh in marriage). This is not the case in 2 Corinthians 6:14. There is no marriage situation going on here. 2 Corinthians 6:14 is telling the believer to not have fellowship with unbelievers because their sinful ways can influence them back into the ways of the world and lead them into a life of sin. For believers can backslide into a life of sin (and become unsaved and then can be restored back to the faith by repentance) like in the Parable of the Prodigal Son. For when the prodigal son came home, his father said that he was dead and is alive again two times. This is speaking in spiritual terms of course. Anyways, I know by first hand experience what it is like to be influenced by unbelievers. Such a thing had led me into a life of sin where I need to repent and get my heart right with the Lord again. But if you need other verses that say the same thing as 2 Corinthians 6:14, here ya go:

Ephesians 5:3-7
3 "But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 "Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them."

"Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God." (James 4:4).

"I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators." (1 Corinthians 5:9).

"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them." (Ephesians 5:11).

14 "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city." (Matthew 10:14-15).

That is how evangelization was done back then. They would travel two by two to people's houses preaching the gospel. If they did not receive the words of the gospel, they were to depart that house. They did not stay and have fellowship with them afterwards or stay in contact to get together later so as to watch a sports game and scream profanities together.

Fellowship in the New Testament is described as believers only gathering in each other's homes every Sunday to celebrate the Lord's supper and to worship the Lord.

Churches today have it all backwards. They have a big building and try to cram believers and unbelievers into the same building or area to worship God together. But how can unbelievers worship God? The short answer is that they cannot do so.



...
 
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