Have conservatives done a 180 and become federalists?

Martinius · Jan 26, 2017

All of my long life, it has been a basic assumption that political conservatives want less centralized government in D.C. and more autonomy for states and local governments. States' Rights was an arguing point in opposition to civil rights legislation and many other federal laws.

But now, the neo-conservatives and alt-right people have switched to wanting a strong federal government, so strong that it usurps the rights and responsibilities of the states and cities. And, conversely, it is the liberals and the Dems and others (mayors, governors, sheriffs, etc.) who are fighting back for the right of states and local jurisdictions to make decisions and run their entities without federal interference.

Wow! I never, ever thought I would see this day.

This is my last thread and post for today. Will check back Friday. Good night all.

BubbaJack · Jan 26, 2017

Good night, bro!

Godlovesmetwo · Jan 26, 2017

Martinius said:
This is my last thread and post for today.

I never make conclusive statements like that in case I change my mind.

Sketcher · Jan 26, 2017

Martinius said:
But now, the neo-conservatives and alt-right people have switched to wanting a strong federal government, so strong that it usurps the rights and responsibilities of the states and cities. And, conversely, it is the liberals and the Dems and others (mayors, governors, sheriffs, etc.) who are fighting back for the right of states and local jurisdictions to make decisions and run their entities without federal interference.

Examples?

Rion · Jan 26, 2017

Neocons have been around for a long time. Alt-right people vary since it is basically an umbrella term. Generally speaking, however, they have less compunction about using the same methods as the New Left/Cultural Marxists do.

iluvatar5150 · Jan 26, 2017

Martinius said:
All of my long life, it has been a basic assumption that political conservatives want less centralized government in D.C. and more autonomy for states and local governments. States' Rights was an arguing point in opposition to civil rights legislation and many other federal laws.

But now, the neo-conservatives and alt-right people have switched to wanting a strong federal government, so strong that it usurps the rights and responsibilities of the states and cities. And, conversely, it is the liberals and the Dems and others (mayors, governors, sheriffs, etc.) who are fighting back for the right of states and local jurisdictions to make decisions and run their entities without federal interference.

Wow! I never, ever thought I would see this day.

This is my last thread and post for today. Will check back Friday. Good night all.

Conservatives don't care anymore - they want whatever level of control will get them the policies they want. They're for local control if that means looser gun and environmental laws, but they're for more centralized control if certain municipalities want to enact stricter laws on emissions or minimum wage. They just continue to play the "small government" card when it suits them because it's easier than actually talking about the issues.

roamer_1 · Jan 26, 2017

Martinius said:
All of my long life, it has been a basic assumption that political conservatives want less centralized government in D.C. and more autonomy for states and local governments. States' Rights was an arguing point in opposition to civil rights legislation and many other federal laws.

Actually Conservatives ARE federalists which means they want state sovereignty and a small federal government. The word you want is 'statists', which, oddly enough, means power residing in an over burgeoning federal government... Liberals are statists.

As to your question: Them ain't Conservatives.

faroukfarouk · Jan 26, 2017

Martinius said:
All of my long life, it has been a basic assumption that political conservatives want less centralized government in D.C. and more autonomy for states and local governments. States' Rights was an arguing point in opposition to civil rights legislation and many other federal laws.

But now, the neo-conservatives and alt-right people have switched to wanting a strong federal government, so strong that it usurps the rights and responsibilities of the states and cities. And, conversely, it is the liberals and the Dems and others (mayors, governors, sheriffs, etc.) who are fighting back for the right of states and local jurisdictions to make decisions and run their entities without federal interference.

Wow! I never, ever thought I would see this day.

This is my last thread and post for today. Will check back Friday. Good night all.

The time for candidates to Federal office to be conservative is after Super Tuesday in some states, and before Super Tuesday in others (or leadership Riding conferences in Canada). The discerning voter thus needs to figure whether conservative-sounding candidates are really radical, or whether radical-sounding candidates are really conservative; and also to remember the prism of whether it's springtime or fall.

Federal/state or provincial relations are influenced by this. One only has to look at the way Republicans replaced Democrats in the Deep South by learning to talk local.

Martinius · Jan 27, 2017

roamer_1 said:
Actually Conservatives ARE federalists which means they want state sovereignty and a small federal government. The word you want is 'statists', which, oddly enough, means power residing in an over burgeoning federal government... Liberals are statists.

As to your question: Them ain't Conservatives.

Thanks for the lesson. My point is that those (Republicans, conservatives) who opposed centralization of power and authority in Washington now want to have that power, and even increase it. And many who generally favor centralization of authority in the federal government are now using state's rights in response.

roamer_1 · Jan 27, 2017

Martinius said:
Thanks for the lesson. My point is that those (Republicans, conservatives) who opposed centralization of power and authority in Washington now want to have that power, and even increase it. And many who generally favor centralization of authority in the federal government are now using state's rights in response.

I can heartily agree with your observation, with the exception of your conflating Conservatism with Republicans - Something often done, to the point of being ubiquitous... But in reality, Conservatives have only ever come from the Goldwater/Reagan wing of the Republican party. These Neocons come from the moderate wing and there has always been a big-money liberal wing.

Principled Conservative representation is perhaps 50/75 reps in the liberty caucus and a handful of senators. All the rest are pointedly liberal, or will vacillate with the wind.

I would predict that what you see now is driven largely by that vacillation, with Conservative overtones as Trump has wrapped himself in the Conservative mantle. But make no mistake - this is a liberal corporate administration.

Martinius · Jan 27, 2017

roamer_1 said:
I can heartily agree with your observation, with the exception of your conflating Conservatism with Republicans - Something often done, to the point of being ubiquitous... But in reality, Conservatives have only ever come from the Goldwater/Reagan wing of the Republican party. These Neocons come from the moderate wing and there has always been a big-money liberal wing.

Principled Conservative representation is perhaps 50/75 reps in the liberty caucus and a handful of senators. All the rest are pointedly liberal, or will vacillate with the wind.

I would predict that what you see now is driven largely by that vacillation, with Conservative overtones as Trump has wrapped himself in the Conservative mantle. But make no mistake - this is a liberal corporate administration.

I appreciate your correction, but in my post I separated them with a comma. They may not be the same, but they have similar positions when it comes to the role of the federal government.

I have noted the label of "liberal corporate" in other places recently. To me that means conservative, in terms of the government keeping their hands off business. I may be wrong understanding the terminology.

roamer_1 · Jan 27, 2017

Martinius said:
I appreciate your correction, but in my post I separated them with a comma. They may not be the same, but they have similar positions when it comes to the role of the federal government.

I have noted the label of "liberal corporate" in other places recently. To me that means conservative, in terms of the government keeping their hands off business. I may be wrong understanding the terminology.

Look into 3rd-way Socialism. Crony Capitalism is how it progresses.

SoldierOfTheKing · Jan 28, 2017

Unclear whether the OP considers this to be a good thing or a bad thing...

bhsmte · Jan 28, 2017

Martinius said:
All of my long life, it has been a basic assumption that political conservatives want less centralized government in D.C. and more autonomy for states and local governments. States' Rights was an arguing point in opposition to civil rights legislation and many other federal laws.

But now, the neo-conservatives and alt-right people have switched to wanting a strong federal government, so strong that it usurps the rights and responsibilities of the states and cities. And, conversely, it is the liberals and the Dems and others (mayors, governors, sheriffs, etc.) who are fighting back for the right of states and local jurisdictions to make decisions and run their entities without federal interference.

Wow! I never, ever thought I would see this day.

This is my last thread and post for today. Will check back Friday. Good night all.

IMO, when you look at those on both the further left and further right, it is more about protecting a political ideology, than anything else. When they attempt to do so, you will often see contradictions in their efforts, while they scramble to protect the same, at all costs.

ThatRobGuy · Jan 28, 2017

They selectively choose when they want a strong federal government based on their own positions.

...but liberals do the same thing too.

We don't have a party of "strong fed" or "strong state" anymore...we simply have two parties who say "which method helps me force everyone else to do things my way or exempts me from following laws I don't agree with?"

Liberals loved states' rights when the discussion was marijuana laws
Conservatives love states' rights when it came to trying to deny marriages to certain folks and abortion

Here's the basic formula
When the federal government is doing things the way I like, federal supremacy is great everyone should be doing things this way!
When the feds make a ruling I don't like, STATES RIGHTS!!!! WE SHOULDN'T HAVE TO ABIDE BY THAT!

GondwanaLand · Jan 28, 2017

Martinius said:
All of my long life, it has been a basic assumption that political conservatives want less centralized government in D.C. and more autonomy for states and local governments. States' Rights was an arguing point in opposition to civil rights legislation and many other federal laws.

But now, the neo-conservatives and alt-right people have switched to wanting a strong federal government, so strong that it usurps the rights and responsibilities of the states and cities. And, conversely, it is the liberals and the Dems and others (mayors, governors, sheriffs, etc.) who are fighting back for the right of states and local jurisdictions to make decisions and run their entities without federal interference.

Wow! I never, ever thought I would see this day.

This is my last thread and post for today. Will check back Friday. Good night all.

Oh, today's conservatives have been strong federal government folks for a number of years now (at least since Dubya), and they've only gotten worse as each year passes. They are unrecognizeable as the party that once elected Reagan (honestly I think Reagan would lose/drop out in the first few months of a Republican Primary these days if he were alive and running now)

faroukfarouk · Jan 28, 2017

GondwanaLand said:
Oh, today's conservatives have been strong federal government folks for a number of years now (at least since Dubya), and they've only gotten worse as each year passes. They are unrecognizeable as the party that once elected Reagan (honestly I think Reagan would lose/drop out in the first few months of a Republican Primary these days if he were alive and running now)

Up here Canada and Ontario especially have to bail out automobile plants if the US does, because you can't have similar factories belonging to the same company group making the same cars at different levels.

It's really a form of expensive protectionism driven by fear of competition and a lack of confidence in the superiority of the finished product and a desire to manipulate the market.

Like you say, it's far removed from classic conservatism, not to say, confidence in the power of innovation and skill to produce a better product.

It's more like Dick Gephardt with added nationalist rhetoric.

Martinius · Jan 28, 2017

SoldierOfTheKing said:
Unclear whether the OP considers this to be a good thing or a bad thing...

Neither, just ironic. I am more of a moderate on this question.

Have conservatives done a 180 and become federalists?

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