Why Believe in Perpetual Virginity?

brightlights

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It's not just Roman Catholics, but most Christians historically. Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and a great many Anglicans and Lutherans. Calvin himself argued in favor of Mary's perpetual virginity, as well, in his Institutes.

I'm not aware that Calvin argued this. In fact in his commentary on James he argues against it - claiming that James the Just was the brother of the Lord. Could you show me what you're talking about?
 
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CrystalDragon

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Those were children of Mary the wife of Clopas, a different Mary than the mother of Jesus.


No, the verse specifically mentions Jesus having a brother named John, a few more brothers, and several sisters. Unless there's suddenly another Jesus.
 
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brightlights

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So heresy and false doctrine arent synonymous?

Not always. Heresy is particularly harmful in that it strikes at the vitals of the faith and compromises the gospel. Dispensationalism, for example, is incorrect. But it is not heretical.
 
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pdudgeon

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This is still true in the East today. My half Asian grandchildren call their cousins gege and mei mei, meaning brother and sister.
agreed. the same is true of some African dialects today. there is no word for cousin, so all are considered brothers and sisters.
 
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Sammy-San

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This is still true in the East today. My half Asian grandchildren call their cousins gege and mei mei, meaning brother and sister.

Why do people believe in perpetual virginity? It doesnt make sense that a married person in ancient times wouldn't have children.
 
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brightlights

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What is an example of heresy?

"Jesus is not God"
"We are saved by good works"
"Jesus did not die for our sins"
"God is not Triune"
"The Bible is not God's word"

Basically anything that contradicts the Apostles Creed would amount to heresy.
 
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Sammy-San

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"Jesus is not God"
"We are saved by good works"
"Jesus did not die for our sins"
"God is not Triune"
"The Bible is not God's word"

Basically anything that contradicts the Apostles Creed would amount to heresy.

What about all the false miracles going on in the Church?
 
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Hank77

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Why do people believe in perpetual virginity? It doesnt make sense that a married person in ancient times wouldn't have children.
I don't know. You have to ask the people who do. Some of those reasons have been stated in this thread.
 
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thecolorsblend

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Was Mary Incarnate as Jesus was?
Um, do you know what is being referred to when I and others say "the Incarnation"?

If so, why would she need a savior?
Whatever graces she received, Our Lady remained fully human; only that, and nothing more. As such, she needed a savior. Our Lord was her savior the same as He was anybody else's

I believe it's cuase we want to ensure the focus is still God....
This is a peculiarity which seems unique to Protestantism. I find many Protestants, whether they would admit it or not, seem to view Mariology as a bizarre zero-sum game. Honoring Our Lady somehow subtracts something from the worship of God. Apart from being factually untrue, it is rather illogical in that a full understanding of Our Lady's role in bringing about salvation can logically only lead someone to fall down on his knees in worship of God.

Catholics (and likely other traditional Christians too) don't view the matter as either/or. It isn't a zero-sum game where honoring Our Lady (or the saints or whoever) somehow takes anything away from God. Our view is more like multiplication. It expands the pie rather than "taking focus away", whatever that means.

Ik a friend
"Ik"?? What does that mean??

Well. Yes and no. Scripture speaks of the brothers of Jesus in a few places. The simplest way to interpret this is that Jesus had actual brothers.
You're right, that is the simplest way. And if we presume those people are Our Lord's literal brothers in the sense that most people understand that word today, Our Lady would've had to gotten married to at least three different men in her life because they each are listed as having different fathers. The alternative explanation is that she was a virgin her entire life and the "brothers" referred to in those passages (none of which you've cited) aren't referring to brothers by the same definition we use today.

For further, more specific information about why it's improbably that those people are His brothers...

St. Jude and the “Brothers” of Jesus – Shameless Popery

Did Mary Have Other Children? – Shameless Popery

The sources used in those links come from the scriptures so I assume you'd find them trustworthy.

But you must admit that, unless we assume perpetual virginity, those explanations are much more complicated.
Not really. "Mary, ever virgin". That concept consists of three words.

But "Our Lord had brothers and sisters" consists of six words so I'd say your explanation is twice as complicated.


I really don't know. Not from Scripture, though.
I agree, they didn't believe in Sola Scriptura, you're right about that.

Does it? In 1 Corinthians 7 Paul says that marriage and celibacy are both good. I'm not convinced that he is exalting celibacy above marriage in that passage.
Alrightsy...

Now concerning the thing whereof you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
But for fear of fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
- 1 Corinthians 7:1-2

With respect, how you can read that as anything other than a clear preference on St. Paul's part, I cannot understand. Even so, he makes his preference clear. Having said that, he goes on to list reasons why it's better for somebody to get married (paraphrasing "Better married than burning hell because you couldn't contain your lust").

That's not to say there's anything wrong with getting married. Clearly there isn't. But his preference on the matter is made clear in that passage.

I don't see how the doctrine of perpetual virginity adds anything to the doctrine of the incarnation. Could you connect those dots for me?
I don't think I ever said it "adds to" doctrine of the Incarnation. What I said was, based on the way many Protestants view Our Lady, I can't help but suspect they don't have the same depth of appreciation for the Incarnation that I do... an assertion I would've assumed stood for itself. But since it seemingly doesn't, here goes.

Catholics view Our Lady as a special vessel set aside for the express purpose of carrying, giving birth to and raising Our Lord; many Protestants view her as a housewife with a very special son. That says something about how seriously God views the matter. Not just anybody would do. God was very choosy in selecting Our Lady. When she's greeted by the title "Full of Grace", that's not idle chit-chat. It means something.

Many Catholics view Our Lady's womb as a fulfillment of the Jewish Temple. As the Jewish Temple was God's dwelling place among men, so was Our Lady's womb. Many Protestants view her womb as the temporary gestation portal for quite a few people with nothing intrinsically important about it.

In relation to that, the Temple was understood to be a sacred space. It would've been profane in the extreme for people (even married people) to have had sex in the Temple. And yet that is basically what Protestants are advocating when they say that Our Lady wasn't perpetually virgin.

Now, there's a subjective element at play here where one might say "Well, that's just not how I see things". Fine and dandy... but that is how the ancients saw things. The doctrine of Our Lady's perpetual virginity was an easy thing for much of the Early Church to believe in. So again one might ask why they found it so easy to believe in, being closer in time to the events described than we are. Their testimony in this matter isn't easily dismissed. So either the Early Church was made up by a bunch of ignorant rubes who didn't know what they were talking about or else they had very clear reason to believe Our Lady stayed a virgin her entire life which, for some reason, many Protestants today seem to think they're at liberty to disregard.
 
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brightlights

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You're right, that is the simplest way. And if we presume those people are Our Lord's literal brothers in the sense that most people understand that word today, Our Lady would've had to gotten married to at least three different men in her life because they each are listed as having different fathers. The alternative explanation is that she was a virgin her entire life and the "brothers" referred to in those passages (none of which you've cited) aren't referring to brothers by the same definition we use today.

For further, more specific information about why it's improbably that those people are His brothers...

St. Jude and the “Brothers” of Jesus – Shameless Popery

Did Mary Have Other Children? – Shameless Popery

The sources used in those links come from the scriptures so I assume you'd find them trustworthy.

The only person that I'm totally confident is the brother of the Lord is James (author of the epistle). This James is known by Paul as "the brother of the Lord". Even the James Ossuary, a burial box from the first century, has inscribed on it "James the Son of Joseph, the Brother of Jesus." It's singularly unusual that such a burial box would include the name of a person's brother, unless that brother was very famous - like Jesus.

Anyway, the links you've provided do not demonstrate any compelling evidence that James the Just was not the brother of Jesus.

Not really. "Mary, ever virgin". That concept consists of three words.

But "Our Lord had brothers and sisters" consists of six words so I'd say your explanation is twice as complicated.

This is just silly. I'm not measuring "simple" and "complicated" by the amount of words it takes to say. It's measured in the amount of assumptions made and in the straightforwardness of the argument. The simplest explanation of James being called "the brother of the Lord" is that he was Jesus' brother.

Now concerning the thing whereof you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
But for fear of fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
- 1 Corinthians 7:1-2

With respect, how you can read that as anything other than a clear preference on St. Paul's part, I cannot understand. Even so, he makes his preference clear. Having said that, he goes on to list reasons why it's better for somebody to get married (paraphrasing "Better married than burning hell because you couldn't contain your lust").

The passage ought to be read as Paul quoting the Corinthians' concern and then responding to it. He does this all throughout the letter, so this place is not an exception. It should be understood like this:

Now concerning the matter of which you wrote: "It is good for a man not to touch a woman". (Corinthian claim)

(Paul's answer) But for fear of sexual immorality, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

Paul does not deny that it is "good for a man not to touch a woman". But he nowhere elevates celibacy as superior to marriage.

Catholics view Our Lady as a special vessel set aside for the express purpose of carrying, giving birth to and raising Our Lord; many Protestants view her as a housewife with a very special son. That says something about how seriously God views the matter. Not just anybody would do. God was very choosy in selecting Our Lady. When she's greeted by the title "Full of Grace", that's not idle chit-chat. It means something.

I disagree. Based on the same logic Abraham, Moses, or Noah must have been very special men. But we know that the only thing special about them was that God chose them.

Many Catholics view Our Lady's womb as a fulfillment of the Jewish Temple. As the Jewish Temple was God's dwelling place among men, so was Our Lady's womb. Many Protestants view her womb as the temporary gestation portal for quite a few people with nothing intrinsically important about it.

This is problematic since Jesus himself says that his body is the fulfillment of the Jewish temple.

Now, there's a subjective element at play here where one might say "Well, that's just not how I see things". Fine and dandy... but that is how the ancients saw things. The doctrine of Our Lady's perpetual virginity was an easy thing for much of the Early Church to believe in. So again one might ask why they found it so easy to believe in, being closer in time to the events described than we are. Their testimony in this matter isn't easily dismissed. So either the Early Church was made up by a bunch of ignorant rubes who didn't know what they were talking about or else they had very clear reason to believe Our Lady stayed a virgin her entire life which, for some reason, many Protestants today seem to think they're at liberty to disregard.

A few ancients may have believed in perpetual virginity. But this was not made infallible Catholic doctrine until the 20th century.
 
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JESUS=G.O.A.T

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Um, do you know what is being referred to when I and others say "the Incarnation"?

Whatever graces she received, Our Lady remained fully human; only that, and nothing more. As such, she needed a savior. Our Lord was her savior the same as He was anybody else's

This is a peculiarity which seems unique to Protestantism. I find many Protestants, whether they would admit it or not, seem to view Mariology as a bizarre zero-sum game. Honoring Our Lady somehow subtracts something from the worship of God. Apart from being factually untrue, it is rather illogical in that a full understanding of Our Lady's role in bringing about salvation can logically only lead someone to fall down on his knees in worship of God.

Catholics (and likely other traditional Christians too) don't view the matter as either/or. It isn't a zero-sum game where honoring Our Lady (or the saints or whoever) somehow takes anything away from God. Our view is more like multiplication. It expands the pie rather than "taking focus away", whatever that means.

"Ik"?? What does that mean??

You're right, that is the simplest way. And if we presume those people are Our Lord's literal brothers in the sense that most people understand that word today, Our Lady would've had to gotten married to at least three different men in her life because they each are listed as having different fathers. The alternative explanation is that she was a virgin her entire life and the "brothers" referred to in those passages (none of which you've cited) aren't referring to brothers by the same definition we use today.

For further, more specific information about why it's improbably that those people are His brothers...

St. Jude and the “Brothers” of Jesus – Shameless Popery

Did Mary Have Other Children? – Shameless Popery

The sources used in those links come from the scriptures so I assume you'd find them trustworthy.

Not really. "Mary, ever virgin". That concept consists of three words.

But "Our Lord had brothers and sisters" consists of six words so I'd say your explanation is twice as complicated.


I agree, they didn't believe in Sola Scriptura, you're right about that.

Alrightsy...

Now concerning the thing whereof you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
But for fear of fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
- 1 Corinthians 7:1-2

With respect, how you can read that as anything other than a clear preference on St. Paul's part, I cannot understand. Even so, he makes his preference clear. Having said that, he goes on to list reasons why it's better for somebody to get married (paraphrasing "Better married than burning hell because you couldn't contain your lust").

That's not to say there's anything wrong with getting married. Clearly there isn't. But his preference on the matter is made clear in that passage.

I don't think I ever said it "adds to" doctrine of the Incarnation. What I said was, based on the way many Protestants view Our Lady, I can't help but suspect they don't have the same depth of appreciation for the Incarnation that I do... an assertion I would've assumed stood for itself. But since it seemingly doesn't, here goes.

Catholics view Our Lady as a special vessel set aside for the express purpose of carrying, giving birth to and raising Our Lord; many Protestants view her as a housewife with a very special son. That says something about how seriously God views the matter. Not just anybody would do. God was very choosy in selecting Our Lady. When she's greeted by the title "Full of Grace", that's not idle chit-chat. It means something.

Many Catholics view Our Lady's womb as a fulfillment of the Jewish Temple. As the Jewish Temple was God's dwelling place among men, so was Our Lady's womb. Many Protestants view her womb as the temporary gestation portal for quite a few people with nothing intrinsically important about it.

In relation to that, the Temple was understood to be a sacred space. It would've been profane in the extreme for people (even married people) to have had sex in the Temple. And yet that is basically what Protestants are advocating when they say that Our Lady wasn't perpetually virgin.

Now, there's a subjective element at play here where one might say "Well, that's just not how I see things". Fine and dandy... but that is how the ancients saw things. The doctrine of Our Lady's perpetual virginity was an easy thing for much of the Early Church to believe in. So again one might ask why they found it so easy to believe in, being closer in time to the events described than we are. Their testimony in this matter isn't easily dismissed. So either the Early Church was made up by a bunch of ignorant rubes who didn't know what they were talking about or else they had very clear reason to believe Our Lady stayed a virgin her entire life which, for some reason, many Protestants today seem to think they're at liberty to disregard.


IK= I know. Also Why call her "your lady" I mean look I respect mary and I admire her but she was just a human used in a mighty way...just like many figures in the bible. I appreciate her...just cause I don't celebrate her or something or have pictures of her doesn't mean I don't admire her.
 
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zippy2006

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Roman Christians believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary. This is the doctrine that not only was Mary a virgin at the time she conceived Jesus, but that she remained a virgin throughout her life.

Why believe this?

I understand that the Roman Church teaches this doctrine, and that this reason alone is enough for assenting Catholics to accept it. But there doesn't seem to be any basis for this belief in Scripture and I don't understand what is gained by believing it.

To me it seems rooted in a medieval error that virginity or even celibacy is somehow holier than sex and marriage.

The Case for Mary's Perpetual Virginity

...lots of good arguments. The one that is most obvious to me is the fact that Jesus gives Mary to John in Jn 19:26. If Mary had other children then she would have lived with them after the firstborn's passing according to Mosaic law.
 
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brightlights

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The OP asked "Why believe in Mary's perpetual virginity?"

So far it seems we've got:
  1. Many church fathers believed it.
  2. Scripture does not explicitly say that Mary ever lost her virginity.
  3. If Mary was not a perpetual virgin then somehow her holiness or purity would be compromised.
  4. The Roman Church teaches this doctrine.
As far as 1) is concerned it's interesting that church fathers believed this. But many church fathers also believed that the earth was flat. I respect the fathers, but I do not feel inclined to embrace all their beliefs (even all their beliefs about God and Scripture) just because they believed them. If these beliefs are not grounded in Scripture then they cannot be certain.

2) is an argument from silence, in part. It's also incorrect. Scripture does explicitly say that Jesus had siblings. Also someone else suggested that Mary had taken a perpetual vow of celibacy before her marriage to Joseph. But a vow of celibacy would preclude marriage. A betrothed woman would never have taken such a vow. There is no marriage without sex in Scripture.

And I don't see why 3) should be true. Sex within the confines of marriage is good and created by God. Nothing about sex within marriage per se should damage someone's holiness or purity.

4) Highlights a major difference between Romans and other Christians. Romans believe that their church has authority beyond Scripture. Other Christians believe that the church only has authority where Scripture speaks. So the church has authority when it is expounding Scripture. Since the doctrine of perpetual virginity is not based on Scripture there is no obligation to accept it - even if a church teaches it.

Am I missing other reasons to believe this doctrine?
 
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brightlights

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The Case for Mary's Perpetual Virginity

...lots of good arguments. The one that is most obvious to me is the fact that Jesus gives Mary to John in Jn 19:26. If Mary had other children then she would have lived with them after the firstborn's passing according to Mosaic law.

This is an interesting argument. I'd have to think more about it.

It is noteworthy that, at this point, all of Jesus' siblings were unbelievers. John tells us that "not even his brothers believed in him" (John 7:5). It may be for this reason that Jesus charged one of his disciples to care for his mother rather than an unbelieving brother.
 
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zippy2006

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The only person that I'm totally confident is the brother of the Lord is James (author of the epistle). This James is known by Paul as "the brother of the Lord". Even the James Ossuary, a burial box from the first century, has inscribed on it "James the Son of Joseph, the Brother of Jesus." It's singularly unusual that such a burial box would include the name of a person's brother, unless that brother was very famous - like Jesus.

Anyway, the links you've provided do not demonstrate any compelling evidence that James the Just was not the brother of Jesus.

Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother. (Galatians 1:18-19)​

Paul speaks of James the Apostle. There are two options: 1) James, son of Zebedee (Mark 3:17), and 2) James, son of Alphaeus (Luke 6:15). There is no James, son of Joseph.

Also, James and Joseph the "brothers of Jesus" (Matthew 13:55) are explicitly accounted for as being the sons of another Mary in Matthew 27:56
 
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brightlights

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Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother. (Galatians 1:18-19)​

Paul speaks of James the Apostle. There are two options: 1) James, son of Zebedee (Mark 3:17), and 2) James, son of Alphaeus (Luke 6:15). There is no James, son of Joseph.

Hah. There is clearly a third option - James the brother of Jesus, who is simply called "James" in Scripture...

1 Corinthians 15:6-8 Paul says that Jesus appeared to "James, the to all the apostles, then to me." James is distinguished from the twelve here and so is Paul, yet both James and Paul are apostles (yet not among the twelve).

Also, James and Joseph the "brothers of Jesus" (Matthew 13:55) are explicitly accounted for as being the sons of another Mary in Matthew 27:56

Mary, James, Joseph, and Jesus were very common names in first century Palestine. I'd have to look into this more to make a judgment call about who is being referred to here. Why cannot the Mary in Matthew 27:56 be referring to the mother of Jesus?
 
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zippy2006

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Hah. There is clearly a third option - James the brother of Jesus, who is simply called "James" in Scripture...

1 Corinthians 15:6-8 Paul says that Jesus appeared to "James, the to all the apostles, then to me." James is distinguished from the twelve here and so is Paul, yet both James and Paul are apostles (yet not among the twelve).

If you read Paul in context (Gal 1) he is talking about going up to Jerusalem to be with Peter, in which context he speaks of the other Apostles, the twelve.

Mary, James, Joseph, and Jesus were very common names in first century Palestine. I'd have to look into this more to make a judgment call about who is being referred to here. Why cannot the Mary in Matthew 27:56 be referring to the mother of Jesus?

Why would Matthew refer to Mary as the mother of James and Joseph rather than as the mother of Jesus, if in fact it were Jesus' mother? Especially at Jesus' death?
 
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