Why I am a Calvinist, defense of TULIP

bcbsr · Jan 21, 2017

98cwitr said:
The illusion is time, not faith. In both Ezekiel 36 and Jeremiah 31, God promises to change His people's hearts, so that they will follow His laws and obey His decrees. We find now in the New Testament that God's command is this: Believe in the One whom He sent. That is Christ. If you read the promise, you see that God is doing the work, not man.

You and I are governed by our natures. You and I are not free. If we were free, we could freely stop sinning. As it is, we are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness (Romans 6).

I didn't mean to say anything different than what I did. It's the truth. You don't think God knew before He created you that you would go to Hell or Heaven? And if He does know, why do you believe He creates people that will go to Hell?

Under Calvinism it is election, not faith, that secures a person's salvation. As such Calvinists believe salvation by faith is an illusion. And as one cannot logically claim to believe that which they know is merely an illusion, Calvinists cannot logically say that salvation is by faith, seeing as under Calvinism salvation is secured prior to faith. So they end up with a logical fallacy, either contradicting their own theology, or contradicting scripture. And that's just on this point, let alone all the other such contradictions inherent in Calvinistic theology.

rockytopva · Jan 21, 2017

I believe in the seven churches as ages...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

I would think, as John Calvin came out of the Sardis age... That the Lord Jesus also refers to his teachings here...

1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. - Revelation 3:1-6

So the whole Calvin bag was addressed by the Lord Jesus here, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

And in another place... "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." -Matthew 10:22

He that overcometh... Or he who keeps his walk from the moment he is born again until the day he dies, will be truly eternally secure! This takes the entire bible in truth and in context!

Leevo · Jan 21, 2017

PrettyboyAndy said:
To answer your question, there initial work is changing and opening our heart of stone to flesh, the natural man has a heart of stone, unable to follow the Lord without the Spirit of God, God does the initial work brother

Lets count how many times "I" is used here, speaking of the Lord.

21 But I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations to which they came.

I Will Put My Spirit Within You
22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. 23 And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Lord God, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. 24 I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.[a] 28 You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29 And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you. 30 I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways, and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord God; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel.

The Lord opens the heart of stone, to initiate salvation brother, do you see an invitation here? I don't see a choice,

I see this: I WILL OPEN YOUR HEART, which Will allow you to FOLLOW me and my ways! Praise God for his mercy unto us

I definitely see what your getting at, however I also see elsewhere in scripture that humans have free will. This is especially true concerning what Christ said in Matthew 23:37 ""Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."

Thoughts?

Rescued One · Jan 21, 2017

98cwitr said:
Woops....typo!

Just didn't want people to be confused. You're good.

Winken · Jan 21, 2017

rockytopva said:
I believe in the seven churches as ages...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

I would think, as John Calvin came out of the Sardis age... That the Lord Jesus also refers to his teachings here...

1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. - Revelation 3:1-6

So the whole Calvin bag was addressed by the Lord Jesus here, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

And in another place... "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." -Matthew 10:22

He that overcometh... Or he who keeps his walk from the moment he is born again until the day he dies, will be truly eternally secure! This takes the entire bible in truth and in context!

The Seven Churches in Revelation are not specifically addressed when it comes to the Church today. These Seven are Jewish assemblies who have accepted Jesus as Messiah. They serve as a warning with regard to Revelation 4 and following, directed to a lost world.

PrettyboyAndy · Jan 21, 2017

Leevo said:
I definitely see what your getting at, however I also see elsewhere in scripture that humans have free will. This is especially true concerning what Christ said in Matthew 23:37 ""Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."

Thoughts?

Thank you brother, glad to see you are considering this by comparing it to what scripture says.

I understand what your saying, this is my thoughts:

let's think of the natural man. I think this is the key here:

The will of the natural man, what is it?

The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2:14

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God 2 Corinthians 4:3,4

Brother there is one God, and there is one truth in this matter, so use scripture to harmonize, not divide.

That being said: The will of the natural man is blind and can not see or hear the things of God apart from the Spirit. So even with freedom, his will is bend towards sin, he is an enemy of God, and cannot see or hear God.

They are free, he wants them to come, but they are in bondage, Jesus came to set sinners free from their sin and give forgiveness and eternal life

PrettyboyAndy · Jan 21, 2017

bcbsr said:
Under Calvinism it is election, not faith, that secures a person's salvation. As such Calvinists believe salvation by faith is an illusion. And as one cannot logically claim to believe that which they know is merely an illusion, Calvinists cannot logically say that salvation is by faith, seeing as under Calvinism salvation is secured prior to faith. So they end up with a logical fallacy, either contradicting their own theology, or contradicting scripture. And that's just on this point, let alone all the other such contradictions inherent in Calvinistic theology.

No it is not, you don't understand Calvinism.

The Lord gives faith, initiates salvation, we believe and get saved. Salvation through faith.

The means in which a believer is get saved is BY FAITH, but that faith is given by God.

The lambs book of life, has all the believers names written, no one can blot them out, what your saying makes NO SENSE.

The peoples names who are in the book, are they not secured without faith? Let's say someone isn't born yet, they will be born in 2020, and their name is written in the names book of life, they are secure, it just didn't happen yet.

Leevo · Jan 22, 2017

PrettyboyAndy said:
Thank you brother, glad to see you are considering this by comparing it to what scripture says.

I understand what your saying, this is my thoughts:

let's think of the natural man. I think this is the key here:

The will of the natural man, what is it?

The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2:14

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God 2 Corinthians 4:3,4

Brother there is one God, and there is one truth in this matter, so use scripture to harmonize, not divide.

That being said: The will of the natural man is blind and can not see or hear the things of God apart from the Spirit. So even with freedom, his will is bend towards sin, he is an enemy of God, and cannot see or hear God.

They are free, he wants them to come, but they are in bondage, Jesus came to set sinners free from their sin and give forgiveness and eternal life

I tend to view verses like that with Prevenient Grace in mind. In case you aren't entirely sure what I mean by that, here is a great explanation by AW Tozer, in his book The Pursuit of God:

"Christian theology teaches the doctrine of prevenient grace, which briefly stated means this, that before a man can seek God, God must first have sought the man.
Before a sinful man can think a right thought of God, there must have been a work of enlightenment done within him; imperfect it may be, but a true work nonetheless, and the secret cause of all desiring and seeking and praying which may follow.
We pursue God because, and only because, He has first put an urge within us that spurs us to the pursuit. “No man can come to me,” said our Lord, “except the Father which hath sent me draw him,” and it is by this very prevenient drawing that God takes from us every vestige of credit for the act of coming. The impulse to pursue God originates with God, but the outworking of that impulse is our following hard after Him; and all the time we are pursuing Him we are already in His hand: “Thy right hand upholdeth me.”
In this divine “upholding” and human “following” there is no contradiction. All is of God, for as von Hegel teaches, God is always previous. In practice, however, (that is, where God’s previous working meets man’s present response) man must pursue God. On our part there must be positive reciprocation if this secret drawing of God is to eventuate in identifiable experience of the Divine. In the warm language of personal feeling this is stated in the Forty-second Psalm: “As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?” This is deep calling unto deep, and the longing heart will understand it.[3]"

So, with Prevenient Grace, mans heart is not still only inclined towards sin. Man does nothing of his own to change his heart, God does that. Man then has the ability to respond in faith or not. So, when you say mans heart is bent towards sin, that doesn't take into account action on God's part to enable a person to be able to properly respond.

PrettyboyAndy · Jan 22, 2017

Leevo said:
I tend to view verses like that with Prevenient Grace in mind. In case you aren't entirely sure what I mean by that, here is a great explanation by AW Tozer, in his book The Pursuit of God:

"Christian theology teaches the doctrine of prevenient grace, which briefly stated means this, that before a man can seek God, God must first have sought the man.
Before a sinful man can think a right thought of God, there must have been a work of enlightenment done within him; imperfect it may be, but a true work nonetheless, and the secret cause of all desiring and seeking and praying which may follow.
We pursue God because, and only because, He has first put an urge within us that spurs us to the pursuit. “No man can come to me,” said our Lord, “except the Father which hath sent me draw him,” and it is by this very prevenient drawing that God takes from us every vestige of credit for the act of coming. The impulse to pursue God originates with God, but the outworking of that impulse is our following hard after Him; and all the time we are pursuing Him we are already in His hand: “Thy right hand upholdeth me.”
In this divine “upholding” and human “following” there is no contradiction. All is of God, for as von Hegel teaches, God is always previous. In practice, however, (that is, where God’s previous working meets man’s present response) man must pursue God. On our part there must be positive reciprocation if this secret drawing of God is to eventuate in identifiable experience of the Divine. In the warm language of personal feeling this is stated in the Forty-second Psalm: “As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?” This is deep calling unto deep, and the longing heart will understand it.[3]"

So, with Prevenient Grace, mans heart is not still only inclined towards sin. Man does nothing of his own to change his heart, God does that. Man then has the ability to respond in faith or not. So, when you say mans heart is bent towards sin, that doesn't take into account action on God's part to enable a person to be able to properly respond.

Hey brother, I read your post in its entirety.

I see holes in the P.G. please consider the following, and consider if the natural man has a choice to follow God once he receives this grace/or what we would call effectual calling/heart of stone to heart of flesh/opening the eyes and ears.

a) All those the Father gives to Him will come to Him! John 6:37

b) Second verse to prove this: And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. Philippians 1:6

c) A third verse to disprove this P.G. - No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:44

d) And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. Romans 8:28-30

Regeneration is the only way for a person to see/hear/trust in Christ.

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. 1 John 5:1

who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:13

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” John 3:3

And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, Ezekiel 11:19

And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. Ezekiel 36:26

Winken · Jan 22, 2017

Leevo said:
I tend to view verses like that with Prevenient Grace in mind. In case you aren't entirely sure what I mean by that, here is a great explanation by AW Tozer, in his book The Pursuit of God:

"Christian theology teaches the doctrine of prevenient grace, which briefly stated means this, that before a man can seek God, God must first have sought the man.
Before a sinful man can think a right thought of God, there must have been a work of enlightenment done within him; imperfect it may be, but a true work nonetheless, and the secret cause of all desiring and seeking and praying which may follow.
We pursue God because, and only because, He has first put an urge within us that spurs us to the pursuit. “No man can come to me,” said our Lord, “except the Father which hath sent me draw him,” and it is by this very prevenient drawing that God takes from us every vestige of credit for the act of coming. The impulse to pursue God originates with God, but the outworking of that impulse is our following hard after Him; and all the time we are pursuing Him we are already in His hand: “Thy right hand upholdeth me.”
In this divine “upholding” and human “following” there is no contradiction. All is of God, for as von Hegel teaches, God is always previous. In practice, however, (that is, where God’s previous working meets man’s present response) man must pursue God. On our part there must be positive reciprocation if this secret drawing of God is to eventuate in identifiable experience of the Divine. In the warm language of personal feeling this is stated in the Forty-second Psalm: “As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?” This is deep calling unto deep, and the longing heart will understand it.[3]"

So, with Prevenient Grace, mans heart is not still only inclined towards sin. Man does nothing of his own to change his heart, God does that. Man then has the ability to respond in faith or not. So, when you say mans heart is bent towards sin, that doesn't take into account action on God's part to enable a person to be able to properly respond.

We are born with a "heart bent unto sin." We are Spiritually enabled to respond to the urging of the Holy Spirit to confess Jesus as Savior.

Leevo · Jan 22, 2017

Winken said:
We are born with a "heart bent unto sin." We are Spiritually enabled to respond to the urging of the Holy Spirit to confess Jesus as Savior.

That is the position I take. Which is basically what Prevenient Grace is. The difference Arminians and Calvinists have on the issue is whether or not it is resistible.

Leevo · Jan 22, 2017

PrettyboyAndy said:
Hey brother, I read your post in its entirety.

I see holes in the P.G. please consider the following, and consider if the natural man has a choice to follow God once he receives this grace/or what we would call effectual calling/heart of stone to heart of flesh/opening the eyes and ears.

a) All those the Father gives to Him will come to Him! John 6:37

b) Second verse to prove this: And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. Philippians 1:6

c) A third verse to disprove this P.G. - No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:44

d) And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. Romans 8:28-30

Regeneration is the only way for a person to see/hear/trust in Christ.

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. 1 John 5:1

who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:13

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” John 3:3

And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, Ezekiel 11:19

And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. Ezekiel 36:26

Here is what I get from these. The top ones more or less speak of the "calling" of God. In the Arminian view, these mean the same thing in the Calvinist view. We have no disagreement that God draws His elect. Where we would disagree still, is what the elect are based upon. Foreknowledge or divine decree?

PrettyboyAndy · Jan 23, 2017

Leevo said:
Here is what I get from these. The top ones more or less speak of the "calling" of God. In the Arminian view, these mean the same thing in the Calvinist view. We have no disagreement that God draws His elect. Where we would disagree still, is what the elect are based upon. Foreknowledge or divine decree?

Yes that also we see differently with.

But this calling or opening of the heart or regeneration, it doesn't give a choice, please consider this verse:

7 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

This verse shows that when you get this grace, you follow the Lord.

ToBeLoved · Jan 23, 2017

PrettyboyAndy said:
Yes that also we see differently with.

But this calling or opening of the heart or regeneration, it doesn't give a choice, please consider this verse:

7 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

This verse shows that when you get this grace, you follow the Lord.

So where does faith fit in there?

That is where it all breaks down. God has no reason to ask for faith if He Himself would create that faith.

Pre-faith regeneration is saying that God overwhelms humanity. That must be your God who does that.

ToBeLoved · Jan 23, 2017

PrettyboyAndy said:
Yes that also we see differently with.

But this calling or opening of the heart or regeneration, it doesn't give a choice, please consider this verse:

7 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

This verse shows that when you get this grace, you follow the Lord.

Interesting that Calvinist's call themselves "the elect", while many of us call ourselves "servants of Christ".

My Savior came as a Servant for all, not the King He always was. Dined with tax collectors and didn't stone adulter's

I think it is telling when people say how they see themselves.

PrettyboyAndy · Jan 23, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
Interesting that Calvinist's call themselves "the elect", while many of us call ourselves "servants of Christ".

My Savior came as a Servant for all, not the King He always was. Dined with tax collectors and didn't stone adulter's

I think it is telling when people say how they see themselves.

I also consider myself servant of God. Amen

PrettyboyAndy · Jan 23, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
So where does faith fit in there?

That is where it all breaks down. God has no reason to ask for faith if He Himself would create that faith.

Pre-faith regeneration is saying that God overwhelms humanity. That must be your God who does that.

But pursuant to Scripture even the faith is a gift. not from yourself, Ephesians 2

ToBeLoved · Jan 23, 2017

PrettyboyAndy said:
I also consider myself servant of God. Amen

Are you not first considered one of "the elect"?

That is a very often used, standard Calvinistic term.

ToBeLoved · Jan 23, 2017

PrettyboyAndy said:
But pursuant to Scripture even the faith is a gift. not from yourself, Ephesians 2

Didn't we just discuss this verse?

How do you define grace in this verse: 8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Maybe some good old fashioned definitions.

This is the word 'by grace' in Greek:
χάριτι (chariti)
Strong's Greek 5485
charis: grace, kindness
Original Word: χάρις, ιτος, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: charis
Phonetic Spelling: (khar'-ece)
Short Definition: grace, favor, kindness
Definition: (a) grace, as a gift or blessing brought to man by Jesus Christ, (b) favor, (c) gratitude, thanks, (d) a favor, kindness.

HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 5485 xáris (another feminine noun from xar-, "favor, disposed to, inclined, favorable towards, leaning towards to share benefit") – properly, grace. 5485 (xáris) is preeminently used of the Lord's favor – freely extended to give Himself away to people (because He is "always leaning toward them").

5485 /xáris ("grace") answers directly to the Hebrew (OT) term 2580 /Kaná ("grace, extension-toward"). Both refer to God freely extending Himself (His favor, grace), reaching (inclining) to people because He is disposed to bless (be near) them.

[5485 (xáris) is sometimes rendered "thanks" but the core-idea is "favor, grace" ("extension towards").]

This is the word 'faith' in Greek:

πίστεως (pisteōs)

Strong's Greek 4102
pistis: faith, faithfulness
Original Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Short Definition: faith, belief, trust
Definition: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.

PrettyboyAndy · Jan 23, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
Are you not first considered one of "the elect"?

That is a very often used, standard Calvinistic term.

I am born of God, Born from above, follower of Jesus, I don't see what the problem is, especially if believers are refereed to as elect is in the bible

Why I am a Calvinist, defense of TULIP

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...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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