Please explain this conversation (Mark 7:24-30)

lismore · Jan 19, 2017

Shane2336 said:
Nailed it! The woman could have easily said, "Very well Lord. Forgive me for asking. I'll be on my way now."
But she didn't!
This showed Christ that her faith was genuine and deep, as you said.

I agree with you. Jesus very often answered a question with a question to draw out the truth and reveal what he knew was already there. Like the rich young ruler and his love of money. God Bless

rrobsr · Jan 19, 2017

TurtleAnne said:
In Mark 7:24-30, Jesus has a conversation with a woman. I did some searches trying to figure out exactly what is being communicated between them (not the semantics, but the meaning), but I was still a little unsure. I asked my pastor (new church), and he said that what was happening was that the woman was teaching Jesus a lesson on being too judgemental, and that he (pastor) loved that story for this reason. I am currently in the process of discernment about my new church and its leadership, and a few things have given my pause but nothing super severe. However the claim and attitude communicated on this part of scripture, that it was about someone teaching Jesus a lesson, really raised my hairs, so to speak. But since I am pretty new to understanding the scriptures (new Christian in general), I didn't want to start an argument. It has been nagging at me, though. It doesn't sit right with me. I am unsure what to think.

What are your thoughts on this passage in scripture?

God made his old testament covenant with Israel, not with the gentiles. Jesus came for Israel, not the gentiles (John 1:11, Rom 15:8, et. al.) To be a gentile then was to be without God (Eph 2:12). It's not that God didn't like gentiles. He actually had something much better in store for them which is the subject of Paul's gospel of the mystery (Eph 1:9, Eph 3:9, et.al.). But that would have to wait until after his death and resurrection and the day of Pentecost when God would a new creation composed of both Jew and Gentile (Ephesians chapter 1).

But while Jesus was on this earth the gentiles were still, more of less, out of luck. God did not make a covenant with them nor did Jesus come to earth the first time for them. That is all he meant when he told the woman he couldn't help her. He told her plainly that he did not come but for the lost sheep of the house of Israel, i.e. the children (Mark 7:26, Matt 15:24). But she countered by saying that even dogs, which is what Israelites considered Gentiles at the time, get the scraps that fall on the floor (Mark 7:27). In other words, she believed Jesus could help her and she was persistent. Jesus saw her believing (Mark 7:28) and he knew darn well that believing is the key to receiving, regardless of one's ethnicity (Matt 21:21, et. al.). Once he saw her believing, he had no choice. He had to follow God's word. Since God said that whatever a person believes that is what they get, then Jesus had to heal her daughter. It's amazing that an outsider like this woman had more believing than the Jews who considered themselves above the Gentile rabble.

There is a similar (not same) story in Matthew 15:22-28. Same truth.

It's the height of absurdity to think this woman taught Jesus anything. Ask your pastor to prove his statement from the word. If he can't, and I know he can't, find another one who tells you what the word says, not what he thinks.

Truth is always simple.

Steve Petersen · Jan 19, 2017

To me, the story indicates that Gentiles are tangential to Jesus primary mission: saving Israel.

Endtime Survivors · Jan 20, 2017

TurtleAnne said:
Like the way the pastor explained it was that Jesus wasn't going to help this woman at all and just insulted her, because she was of another ethnic group, and the woman lectured Jesus on not being so judgmental, and so therefore Jesus learned a lesson from the woman.

I just felt like.. wut?

Is this a common conclusion, or is my pastor's interpretation unusual?

I think the problem is that "teach a lesson" or "lecture" in this context hints that the woman had more authority and/or wisdom than Jesus, and that just doesn't sound right. He's the master; he's the one who gives the lessons, not the other way around.

But what about, "Jesus learned a lesson from his interaction with the woman"? The result is the same, but without the implication that Jesus was put in his place.

As for whether or not this should count against your willingness to continue attending the church, to me it seems like their emphasis on helping the poor (what you've shared about it) is more important than what may be a slightly wonky interpretation of the dog woman.

Endtime Survivors · Jan 20, 2017

faroukfarouk said:
While there is truth to the words quoted, certainly, I do struggle with the idea of the Lord Jesus being taught a lesson. We read in Hebrews that the Lord experimentally learned obedience through the things that He suffered (Hebrews 5.8-9); but I would not go so far as to say that the woman taught the Lord Jesus a lesson, anyway.

Nice reference.

All4Christ · Jan 20, 2017

rrobsr said:
...Once he saw her believing, he had no choice. He had to follow God's word. Since God said that whatever a person believes that is what they get, then Jesus had to heal her daughter.

As Jesus is God, He didn't have to do anything. He always has the choice to do whatever He wills.

All4Christ · Jan 20, 2017

rrobsr said:
God made his old testament covenant with Israel, not with the gentiles. Jesus came for Israel, not the gentiles (John 1:11, Rom 15:8, et. al.) To be a gentile then was to be without God (Eph 2:12). It's not that God didn't like gentiles. He actually had something much better in store for them which is the subject of Paul's gospel of the mystery (Eph 1:9, Eph 3:9, et.al.). But that would have to wait until after his death and resurrection and the day of Pentecost when God would a new creation composed of both Jew and Gentile (Ephesians chapter 1).

But while Jesus was on this earth the gentiles were still, more of less, out of luck. God did not make a covenant with them nor did Jesus come to earth the first time for them. That is all he meant when he told the woman he couldn't help her. He told her plainly that he did not come but for the lost sheep of the house of Israel, i.e. the children (Mark 7:26, Matt 15:24). But she countered by saying that even dogs, which is what Israelites considered Gentiles at the time, get the scraps that fall on the floor (Mark 7:27). In other words, she believed Jesus could help her and she was persistent. Jesus saw her believing (Mark 7:28) and he knew darn well that believing is the key to receiving, regardless of one's ethnicity (Matt 21:21, et. al.). Once he saw her believing, he had no choice. He had to follow God's word. Since God said that whatever a person believes that is what they get, then Jesus had to heal her daughter. It's amazing that an outsider like this woman had more believing than the Jews who considered themselves above the Gentile rabble.

There is a similar (not same) story in Matthew 15:22-28. Same truth.

It's the height of absurdity to think this woman taught Jesus anything. Ask your pastor to prove his statement from the word. If he can't, and I know he can't, find another one who tells you what the word says, not what he thinks.

Truth is always simple.

Btw, welcome to Christian Forums!

John 1720 · Jan 20, 2017

Steve Petersen said:
To me, the story indicates that Gentiles are tangential to Jesus primary mission: saving Israel.

I wouldn't necessarily say His plan for the Gentiles was tangential, perhaps from one perspective it can be viewed that way, but I believe God's plan was sequential within a Divine order of precedence; just as Day 5 of creation was a necessarily precedential before God's 6th Day of creation, wherein He created mankind.

The Messiah (the seed) promised that would deliver mankind and crush the cancerous sin at the head of the Fall. Gen 3:15
Abraham promised the Godly Progeny the great nation of Israel- Gen 12:2-3; fleshly progeny of Abraham
All the nations will be blessed through Abraham (the Gentiles not excluded) Gen 22:15-18 spiritual progeny of Abraham
The 12 tribes of Israel derived from Jacob's DNA, Abraham's grandson in the flesh.
The Law and Prophets establish the spiritual nation of Israel via God working through Moses.
Jesus chooses His Apostles from Abraham's fleshly progeny - all were Israelites. Luke 6:13
Salvation comes from the knowledge of God vested in the Jews (John 4:22)
Israel's fall into unbelief in the promised Messiah prophesied by Jesus (Matt 23:37-38 & Luke 13:34-35)
Jesus prophesies that Israel will be scattered among the nations until the Age of the Gentiles is completed (The Age ends when the Gospel to the ends of the earth) Luke 21:24

I think the Day of the Gentiles, is all over the prophecies of the Old Testament but it is also clear there was a precendent in the way it would unfold as we unpack it.

Isaiah the Prophet regarding Jesus in Matthew 12 said:
“Behold! My Servant whom I have chosen,
My Beloved in whom My soul is well pleased! I will put My Spirit upon Him, and He will declare justice to the Gentiles. He will not quarrel nor cry out, nor will anyone hear His voice in the streets. A bruised reed He will not break, and smoking flax He will not quench, till He sends forth justice to victory; and in His name Gentiles will trust.”

The Day or the Age remains active in Christ, even two milennia later.
The Body of Christ are believers and in whomever He indwells. We are on mission with Jesus, who commissioned us to go into all the world with His message that all people would have the opportunity to repent, share in His atonement, be empowered by His Spirit, and be raised no longer as a member of fallen mankind but a member of the incorruptible body of Christ who loved us and gave Himself for us. This not only goes out to all nations but circles back to Israel as the completion of His Will and Plan.
[quote="Jesus in Matthew 18:18-20]
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen
[/quote]

On this Inauguration day I would encourage us all to pray for our new President Donald John Trump as he is now the pivotal leader of the free world and the new leader of our United States America.
May God provide him with wisdom, and wholesome conscience in order to guide and lead my beloved country. And may we as Christians propagate Christ's message to all the world, just as the generations that went before us have, and may we do so freely giving our all, just as we have been freely given, with all the love and heart that Jesus had for lost mankind, desiring to know Him in the glory of His salvation and be saved from the corrupting influence of evil that has been with us all since th fall of man. May all learn to hope in our great Savior who has the power to transform each one of us.
In Jesus Name I pray. Amen

rrobsr · Jan 20, 2017

John 1720 said:
I wouldn't necessarily say His plan for the Gentiles was tangential, perhaps from one perspective it can be viewed that way, but I believe God's plan was sequential within a Divine order of precedence; just as Day 5 of creation was a necessarily precedential before God's 6th Day of creation, wherein He created mankind.

Do you understand the mystery that was hidden in God that Paul speaks of (Eph 3:3-4)? I don't think you do because the churches never teach about it even though that is what's happening today in this age of grace. But it's all there in the word of God. I'll explain more if you like to know.

btw. Thanks for the welcome. It's nice to be here with other believers!

rrobsr · Jan 20, 2017

All4Christ said:
As Jesus is God, He didn't have to do anything. He always has the choice to do whatever He wills.

Ezek 24:14

I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent; according to thy ways, and according to thy doings, shall they judge thee, saith the Lord GOD.

Jesus must follow God's word. He has no choice in that. God said believing equals receiving (Matt 17:20). If someone believes, then God is bound by his word to bring it to pass. Otherwise, what value is there in his word? Maybe today he'll honor your believing but maybe tomorrow he'll decide not to? That's insane! I'd never follow a God like that.

SeventhFisherofMen · Jan 20, 2017

TurtleAnne said:
In Mark 7:24-30, Jesus has a conversation with a woman. I did some searches trying to figure out exactly what is being communicated between them (not the semantics, but the meaning), but I was still a little unsure. I asked my pastor (new church), and he said that what was happening was that the woman was teaching Jesus a lesson on being too judgemental, and that he (pastor) loved that story for this reason. I am currently in the process of discernment about my new church and its leadership, and a few things have given my pause but nothing super severe. However the claim and attitude communicated on this part of scripture, that it was about someone teaching Jesus a lesson, really raised my hairs, so to speak. But since I am pretty new to understanding the scriptures (new Christian in general), I didn't want to start an argument. It has been nagging at me, though. It doesn't sit right with me. I am unsure what to think.

What are your thoughts on this passage in scripture?

Hey Anne,
Honestly I don't blame you for feeling odd about your pastor's response, I would probably have reacted the same way and I think you did a great job in not calling out the pastor on the spot for that. Anyways, I wouldn't say that the woman was teaching Jesus a lesson more than she was demonstrating her faith that even though she wasn't counted as one of the children, she still believed she could receive help from Jesus.

Heaven's Child · Jan 20, 2017

TurtleAnne said:
Like the way the pastor explained it was that Jesus wasn't going to help this woman at all and just insulted her, because she was of another ethnic group, and the woman lectured Jesus on not being so judgmental, and so therefore Jesus learned a lesson from the woman.

I just felt like.. wut?

Is this a common conclusion, or is my pastor's interpretation unusual?

The bible says that Jesus was without sin. Therefore he could not have been judging her and where in the word does it state that he lacked compassion. Even when he rebuked the scribes and pharisees he was acting out of a holy anger and compassion for them to repent and to expose the devil so that people would be set free from oppression and sin. According to what you have stated, it would be fair to say that your pastor was saying that Jesus was selfish, insulting, racist and judgmental. This does not line up with scripture. My advice to you is to pray and ask the Lord if this is someone He wants you to follow. Then keep your eyes and ears open to his answer.

Heaven's Child · Jan 20, 2017

TurtleAnne said:
He does seem like a really good guy in a general way, as far as various characteristics like being very patient, compassionate and very welcoming and encouraging for new Christians and church members. If I were regarding him as only a potential friend and fellow disciple, I would have nothing but positive things to say about him. Especially when I compare to so many church leaders out there who do not seem to be concerned about helping others. My pastor's beliefs and attitude could be summed up as, "Faith alone, good works not required, but let's do good works, anyway." Which is something that I personally admire. His sermons so far carry a common theme of encouraging his congregation to be compassionate and have depth, rather than being superficial or hard of heart. He has also been going through some things in the past year, like his wife's cancer and the death of his pastoral mentor.

For all of these reasons, and in addition to me being young and new while he is much older with decades of experience in studying the scriptures, I neither want to argue with him nor do I feel it is even my place. But at the same time, I want to be sure that I really do have an accurate understanding of scripture.

I'll even admit I feel a little bad for going behind him, in a way, to raise my concerns with others and get feedback, but at the same time I'm seriously not going to go into a position of joining a new church and then battling with the pastor, who seems to be a very kind old guy who is having a rough season in life. I mean I'm persistent and paranoid, both, but I am not a willful dbag. So I wasn't really sure how to handle it. Trying to get advice/feedback for the situation while being anonymous on the internet and not naming names, was the best solution I could think of.

Heaven's Child · Jan 20, 2017

Honestly,

I think you did the right thing. The bible says try the spirit by the Spirit and in many places it says be not deceived and to watch out for false teachers and prophets. That's not to say that your pastor is one but it is wise to watch pray and listen closely to what is being taught.

~Anastasia~ · Jan 21, 2017

Heaven's Child said:
The bible says that Jesus was without sin. Therefore he could not have been judging her

Just want to very gently say that this can't be reasoned out in this way. (Though I agree He was not judging her.)

WE are told not to judge, meaning it is not our place to judge the salvation of someone, their eternal destiny, or that they might be "beyond redemption" because that is Christ's alone to judge.

But Christ would never have been sinning by judging in that way, if He were, because He does have knowledge of men's hearts that we lack, and the right to judge, which we also lack.

When He at variously times spoke harshly to the Pharisees, it may well have been with an eye to their eternal disposition. We really don't know. But even if it were, He was not sinning.

Just wanted to point that out.

hedrick · Jan 21, 2017

I’ve heard sermons also saying that Jesus learned something here. It doesn't necessarily indicate any problem with the preacher as far as I'm concerned. But I think it's wrong. Jesus interacted with Gentiles several times, although his primary mission was to his own people.

The commentaries I checked don’t really give a good explanation for why Jesus gave an apparently unsympathetic response. However surely his disciples’ treatment of her had something to do with it. In fact in Matthew’s version “I was sent only ..” is directed as the disciples. I wonder if he was setting her up to demonstrate both her understanding of the situation and her faith for the disciples.

Endtime Survivors · Jan 22, 2017

hedrick said:
I wonder if he was setting her up to demonstrate both her understanding of the situation and her faith for the disciples.

I think this is exactly right. "I've come only for the lost sheep". The woman demonstrated her "lost-sheepness" through her faith.

Kenneth Redden · Jan 22, 2017

rrobsr said:
Do you understand the mystery that was hidden in God that Paul speaks of (Eph 3:3-4)? I don't think you do because the churches never teach about it even though that is what's happening today in this age of grace. But it's all there in the word of God. I'll explain more if you like to know.

btw. Thanks for the welcome. It's nice to be here with other believers!

Yes, it sounds good! I would like to hear more. I'm all about the hidden mystery of the revelation, mentioned in 1 Corinthians 2:7.

Kenneth Redden · Jan 22, 2017

And that hidden mystery for me is that today is the age of the dispensation of the grace of God, the fourth day of the creation. Today is the fourth day, the day "he made the stars also" in Genesis 1:16. It is all in the KJV Bible, as he "wrote afore in few words"; but on the third day of the creation. But for us here on the fourth day of the creation, this may mean; he wrote a four; as in he wrote the fourth day of the creation, which brings a Twenty-First Century perspective into play.

Kenneth Redden · Jan 22, 2017

I believe that "Gentiles" in Ephesians 3:1, may reference us today; here in the Twenty-First Century of the fourth day of the creation.

Please explain this conversation (Mark 7:24-30)

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