LDS Salvation, despite beliefs.

Songsmith · Jan 18, 2017

So...nobody really has the right to determine someone else's eternal destination but God. Why am I so often told that, because I believe in the Book of Mormon, I am not saved? Who gives someone the right to determine where someone else will spend eternity? Is that not between God and the individual?

If you believe that you are not wrong on some detail of your faith then you are delusional, I would posit. Does being wrong about theology negate salvation? Obviously not, assuming you believe Christ's sacrifice was sufficient to wash away your sins. I would go on to say, just for the sake of argument, that if everything I believe outside of that truth is wrong I am still saved, not because of those beliefs but despite them.

Those who challenge my salvation put themselves in a tough position because of the answers I will give to the inevitable questions (what about becoming a God (I'm not Mormon, I don't believe that) what about the spirit brother thing (I'm not Mormon, I don't believe that either.))

There are only two churches. The church of Christ and the church of Satan. If you don't belong to one you belong to the other.

Strivax · Jan 18, 2017

I don't actually think you need to worry too much about what you believe. Plenty of good people down history have believed plenty of really weird things. I do not think a good, just God will treat them harshly.

'Tis my belief that salvation is about the way you are, not what you believe, and an ontological, rather than epistemological, qualification. In other words, good people will be affirmed and vindicated in their goodness, and bad people won't. Irrespective of their beliefs. All that come the end of days. I really can't see how any other deployment of souls could in any way be regarded as just.

As for who and what is good, and who and what is bad? That is, of course, the topic of the Great Debate, each human's and all humanity's investigation into, and reportage of, the ethical and moral.

Best wishes, Strivax.

Ironhold · Jan 18, 2017

Songsmith said:
So...nobody really has the right to determine someone else's eternal destination but God. Why am I so often told that, because I believe in the Book of Mormon, I am not saved? Who gives someone the right to determine where someone else will spend eternity? Is that not between God and the individual?

It's been my personal experience that it very often comes down to one of the following:

1. The person having been misinformed by a trusted source, a source who informed them that the church was "Satanic" or otherwise wicked and Hell-bound

2. A fear of an "other" that they don't understand, and often don't wish to understand

3. A strict "us vs. them" mentality in which anyone who does not believe as they do must therefore be wrong

Tragic, but it's what I've gotten after spending 17 years now speaking with people.

dzheremi · Jan 18, 2017

Songsmith said:
So...nobody really has the right to determine someone else's eternal destination but God. Why am I so often told that, because I believe in the Book of Mormon, I am not saved?

Because you are dealing with people who apparently use that kind of language without considering its implications, I'd guess.

If you believe that you are not wrong on some detail of your faith then you are delusional, I would posit.

How does that follow from what you've written so far?

I would go on to say, just for the sake of argument, that if everything I believe outside of that truth is wrong I am still saved, not because of those beliefs but despite them.

Wait a minute...didn't you just write that it's nobody's right but God's to make that kind of determination? Are you God?

Those who challenge my salvation put themselves in a tough position

Couldn't the same be said of those who are assured of their own salvation in their own minds despite not having 'run the race' yet?

There are only two churches. The church of Christ and the church of Satan. If you don't belong to one you belong to the other.

So how do you know which is which, particularly in light of your contention that everyone must be at least somewhat wrong in some details (or at least think themselves that way, for some reason)?

Postvieww · Jan 19, 2017

Acts 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

If one believes what scripture says about salvation and with God given faith accepts that they will be saved. If one has depended only on what their church or man said they must do to be saved, there might be a question.

Songsmith · Jan 19, 2017

I am glad that we agree on salvation. This is out of Mosiah ch 5:

8 And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives.

9 And it shall come to pass that whosoever doeth this shall be found at the right hand of God, for he shall know the name by which he is called; for he shall be called by the name of Christ.

There are many other verses that I could grab that say Christ and Christ alone is the way to salvation. I'm at work or I'd look some up. Maybe another time.

Rescued One · Jan 19, 2017

Songsmith said:
There are only two churches. The church of Christ and the church of Satan. If you don't belong to one you belong to the other.

Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10
10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two
churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the harlot of all the earth.

RESTORATION OF THE GOSPEL
God’s reestablishment of the truths and ordinances of his gospel among men on earth. The gospel of Jesus Christ was lost from the earth through the apostasy that took place following the earthly ministry of Christ’s Apostles. That apostasy made necessary the restoration of the gospel. Through visions, the ministering of angels, and revelations to men on the earth, God restored the gospel. The Restoration started with the Prophet Joseph Smith... and has continued to the present through the work of the Lord’s living prophets.
Restoration of the Gospel

D&C 1
30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—

Rescued One · Jan 19, 2017

Songsmith said:
I am glad that we agree on salvation. This is out of Mosiah ch 5:

8 And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives.

9 And it shall come to pass that whosoever doeth this shall be found at the right hand of God, for he shall know the name by which he is called; for he shall be called by the name of Christ.

There are many other verses that I could grab that say Christ and Christ alone is the way to salvation. I'm at work or I'd look some up. Maybe another time.

A person who promotes Mormonism is generally a Mormon or one who wants to be admitted back into that church.

Jane_Doe · Jan 19, 2017

Phoebe Ann said:
A person who promotes Mormonism is generally a Mormon or one who wants to be admitted back into that church.

Actually the OP specifically said he wasn't a Mormon.

Songsmith said:
I'm not Mormon

I would also guess that you spend more time thinking about Mormon beliefs than he does.

Ironhold · Jan 19, 2017

Phoebe Ann said:
A person who promotes Mormonism is generally a Mormon or one who wants to be admitted back into that church.

Are you suggesting that there is dishonesty afoot?

Postvieww · Jan 20, 2017

Ironhold said:
Are you suggesting that there is dishonesty afoot?

I know some Mormons and have visited a Mormon congregation, I believe they sincerely believe what they believe and are very honest. I also have had Mormon elders in my home for discussions. In my opinion based on research is there is dishonesty at the foundation and upper levels of Mormonism.

Ironhold · Jan 21, 2017

Postvieww said:
I know some Mormons and have visited a Mormon congregation, I believe they sincerely believe what they believe and are very honest. I also have had Mormon elders in my home for discussions. In my opinion based on research is there is dishonesty at the foundation and upper levels of Mormonism.

I was referencing Phoebe's comment.

Over the last 16+ years, I've seen more than a few mainline Christians who refuse to believe that anyone who isn't Mormon could say anything nice about Mormons; in their eyes, if a non-Mormon says something nice about Mormons, then either [1] they're a shill or [2] they're a Mormon in disguise. It's easier for them to believe that others around them aren't being honest than it is for them to believe that their world view might not be entirely correct.

Given this, I figured it best to get more information from Phoebe as to whether or not she is alleging just such a thing.

How, pray tell, do your comments fit into that, then?

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LDS Salvation, despite beliefs.

Songsmith

Junior Member

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Strivax

Pilgrim on another way

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Ironhold

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dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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Postvieww

Believer

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Songsmith

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Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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Jane_Doe

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Ironhold

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Postvieww

Believer

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Ironhold

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