Women Pastors part 2
- Thread starter Sheep4Christ
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Again, within this conversation, it is important to remember that there are multiple reasonings for the different opinions. There also are different issues which may not match up. To name a few, one issue is authority, one is teaching / preaching to men, one is administering sacraments (Eucharist / communion, baptism, etc.), and one is keeping silent altogether. Grouping them into 2 opinions is erroneous, as not all have the same definition of pastor or priest. Catholics, Orthodox, traditional Protestant churches, Reformed, and Evangelical (I probably missed some) may fall into different opinions on a variety of the issues listed above. There are also different reasons behind our respective opinions.
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This is why I said earlier that those who don't approve of female pastors/priests shouldn't join churches that have them. There are valid reasons to support arguments on both sides of the issue. I obviously agree with those who say that women can and should be pastors and, as I said, I would not join a church that holds otherwise.
You are correct about other aspects of worship. In our church communion is distributed by the pastor assisted by members of church council who serve as deacon . The pastor provides the bread, the deacon provides the wine. Our current pastor is male, but the deacon could be female. So if you don't want to receive Holy Communion from a woman you might not want to attend my church or if you do attend you might want to skip Communion on days when a female deacon is serving.
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Agreed
Obviously, I adhere to the position of my church, but I definitely understand the reasoning for the other side. That said, there are some "reasons" for both opinions (female pastor or priest vs no female pastor or priest) that I disagree with, even if the end result is the same as my opinion. Honestly, I even agree with some (though not all) of the arguments of those who come to an alternative conclusion than my opinion.
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HenryM
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Division is one of the themes of this thread.
I would like to pause for a second on something you wrote: "I adhere to the position of my church."
What I'm going to present is not something I personally need to debate, because I believe I have complete understanding of it. What I want is just to give certain food for thought for people didn't think about it already. So, this is not argumentative, but explorative.
Here's what I mean: why do you say "my church"? Why have you presented yourself as Eastern Orthodox Christian in this forum and not as Christian? That same question is for all others who have identified themselves as part of their denomination and not as part of spiritual church of Jesus Christ.
Again, this is not argumentative, but explorative. Questions we can all ask ourselves, and search within ourselves for answers and understanding.
For example, if I presented myself as part of my denomination, does that mean that my denomination is bigger than spiritual church of Jesus Christ (being Christian)? Or more important? Or does it add something of value that is missing if I just say I'm a Christian (although at the same time I do belong to a denomination)?
The problem is, if me presenting myself as part of my denomination adds something to me being Christian, that means that me being Christian is not complete, not full, not good enough, so I need to add to it.
So, Christians who present themselves as part of their denomination don't really add value to their Christianity by presenting themselves through denomination, because being Christian is already full in value. What does then it mean to identify oneself with his or her denomination? Shouldn't I identify with all Christians?
Again, to repeat, this is not argumentative, but explorative.
I believe I understand the answer completely, but that's for another place. I can say, in short, that, essentially, it doesn't matter how one presents oneself, but that there are issues that most people don't realize about the distinction. And so, it can be nutritional, so to speak, to think for oneself about it, and get even deeper understanding of one's faith.
I mention this because one of the themes of this thread is division. Many divisions in our lives, including gender division discussed here, is connected (not necessarily exclusively, but nevertheless) to the fact that our Churches are divided. So it's good to see the forest too, when arguing about the trees.
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AnticipateHisComing said:
We are not all equal, meaning we do not all have the same roles in the family and church with our God given talents and spiritual gifts. This is exactly what 1 Cor 12 says. As for how much does God love one vs. the other because one has greater gifts than another, I think we should follow the advice of 1 Corinthians 12:25 and have equal concern/love for each other.
If you have more than one child, you would realize that though each is different with different abilities, we love them all the same.
Now in regards to my post, the purpose for the discussion on equality was for those that use Galatians 3:28 to assert that women can be pastors. You cast "doubt" on my statement but don't refute anything said. I would like one that uses the Galatians passage for support of their position in regards to this OP to respond and argue where my argument is lacking.
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This is a good topic. However, while it is related to this subject on a certain level, it will be quite beyond the subject of this thread. If you are interested, I'd be happy to discuss it further in another venue.
One note, while I think you understand your position, I am not positive that you fully understand where I am coming from. I have not always been Eastern Orthodox. In fact, I grew up as a Pentecostal. I have seen a wide variety of beliefs and found my way through much prayer, and also research, to the place I am today. I did not grow up as Eastern Orthodox, so I am familiar with varying beliefs of Christian believers.
I certainly do not believe God intended division. I also don't believe He wanted us to have varying beliefs, especially on some important issues. It also is important to remember that while many Protestants say denominations, we (Orthodox, Catholic, etc.) tend to say Church or Tradition. That's not to say that the Body of Christ is limited to our Church, we do use a different set of terminology.
Within the context of this thread, I believe 99% of us are Christians. Due to that, I believe the denomination, as you call it, can help give a better understanding of where we come from. Also, it helps to give a framework of our expectations of what a pastor / priest does. I don't present it as a divisive concept, but as a construct that can help with communication.
Like I said earlier, I'd be happy to discuss this further in a different thread. My purposes here, though, is to give a framework for where I am coming from.
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Through diligent prayer, discernment and scriptural(word of GOD)we find the answers. The role of women is perfectly defined in timothy and describes in detail the model by which all women should ascertain themselves and the general principles by which they should follow. The books of timothy obviously and quite clearly gives us those brief pictures and ideals; which does not skew the representation of love and respect they deserve.
Interpretation throughout history have indicated that either the role chosen by each individual woman is one of a conservative role or a liberal path. each denotes certain characteristics tht defined the traits by which they follow. In my earnest opinion...
1 Peter 3King James Version (KJV)
3 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
0 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
Praise be to GOD the heavenly father and his son lord JESUS CHRIST forever>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Interpretation throughout history have indicated that either the role chosen by each individual woman is one of a conservative role or a liberal path. each denotes certain characteristics tht defined the traits by which they follow. In my earnest opinion...
1 Peter 3King James Version (KJV)
3 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
0 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
Praise be to GOD the heavenly father and his son lord JESUS CHRIST forever>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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Equal does not necessarily mean "same". No one, male or female, is exactly the same. That doesn't mean that we aren't of equal value to God. I doubt Philip means that we are all identical persons.
So in regards to your first sentence, I believe it is more accurate to say we aren't all identical. I will love my future children equally, and will also value the unique qualities. However, they will also all be equal in my mind. None will receive love more than the others and none will be more important than the others. This will happen no matter whether they are all girls, girls and boys or all boys. Every person is unique.
@Philip_B Feel free to correct me if I am misunderstanding you
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AnticipateHisComing said:
So I made multiple points to defend my position; your response is to just call it chauvinistic. Understand that your response does not refute a single point made, it only uses the tool of progressives to discredit and invalidate the points made by asserting it as being some bad label.
Is it chauvinistic to say women are better nurturers than men? Technically it is, even if this is the design from nature, that they bear and care for offspring. None are concerned with the statement that women are made to have children and are better at nurturing them, but if one says men are better at something, the feminists go crazy.
As I have already posted, men and women are biologically different. This design results in different roles for men and women. Nature dictates this, scripture reinforces it. Just because we have differences does not mean one is greater in God's eyes than the other.
It is easy to see that men and women have different biological differences, but how would one see any spiritual difference? Not so obvious and why I made multiple points in my post. Again, I am not saying that men are "more excellent" than women spiritually, only that if men and women have different "fleshy" roles, than it goes to say we may have different spiritual roles, as scripture does state.
This post may be a little harsh on you, but that is because you are educated professionally but use such a simplistic tool to discredit my post. You glaringly quote my reference to 1 Corinthians 11:7 but offer up no insight to what scripture means when it says men are in the image of God, but women are in the image of man. If you don't agree with my position, you must have one of your own. Care to offer it up and defend what you believe?
Further I want to add that I do not believe there is gender in heaven, so whatever different roles we have on earth because of gender, have no bearing to our roles in heaven.
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I am flawed by this statement. It seems to undermine any sense of meaning in creation in the image and after the likeness. I fail to see it's underpinning in Scripture, Tradition or Reason. Mind you I have been flawed by a number of the statements you have posted, and by the determination to presume no cultural filters are present in the written accounts of the Pauline Corpus.
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Your statements go way beyond the view of complementarianism (which can be debated elsewhere), which supports the first part of your statement (women being nourishers). Instead of saying that men are leaders of the household, are supposed to lay their lives down for their wife and family, be the head of the family, etc., you state that men are the spiritual nourishers, while women are physical nourishers. This is where the chauvinism comes in (stating that your own sex is superior). Which is more important: physical or spiritual? Do you really believe women aren't also called to nourish spiritually? If one is focused on the spiritual life, while the other is focused on the physical life, which is the superior Christian? It is erroneous to state that one is spiritually focused while the other is physically focused.
Do you understand how many of us can take your post as stating that men are spiritually superior over women, despite your one statement denying that?
I agree with Philip as well. I am curious where you get your premise of being neither female or male in Heaven.
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Perhaps you should read "The Image of God in Man--Is Woman Included?" by Horowitz, published in the Harvard Theological Review, volume 72 beginning on page 175 (July-October 1979). I have access via jstor; if you do not have access to jstor or cannot locate it in print you might be able to get a copy via interlibrary loan.
BTW, the author's conclusion is that yes, men and women are both created in God's image.
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Nah, I don't do retribution. I just thought you likely didn't realise that the way you'd posted wouldn't be received well. All good.
Well, actually, I am concerned with the statement that women are made to have children, better nurturers, etc. It tends to be one of the ideas which relegates women who work to the "pink collar" jobs; nursing, childcare, various service industry roles. It also leaves no room to account for the women whose strengths lie in different directions (we're not all the same!) or for men who are great nurturers.
In my marriage my husband is by far the more patient, nurturing parent (once we got past the biological stuff like breast feeding) and yet somehow he's not allowed to claim that as a strength... because biology? I resent the way this kind of statement tries to pigeon hole both men and women.
I think Paul was appropriating the text from Genesis in a way which supported his argument about order. But that we have taken that and applied it to an argument about power and authority in a way which is inconsistent with the Christian picture elsewhere in Scripture. For questions of power and authority we need to remember that part of Genesis that says that both male and female are made in the image of God; woman is not, in that sense, a reflection of a reflection, but equally shows forth something of the divine nature.
Oh, and given that we know that the Christian hope is for a resurrection in the body... I too would say that sex/gender is unlikely to be absent from the resurrection.
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In regards to Genesis: It's an interesting thought that Eve was deceived by Satan (who is a master at deception), while Adam just followed suit without question.
Which is worse? Being deceived by Satan or following blindly when you know it is against the will of God? Adam knew perfectly well that's God forbade them to partake of it. (I'm not saying that men are worse than women - far from it; This is just some contemplation on that scripture in Genesis
).
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I have always felt Adam's excuse 'she made me do it' has been echoing around school playgrounds forever, and the truth is, it just did not cut the mustard. It is like suggesting that women have personal responsibility and men have excuses. In the 21st Century Western World this seems childish and foreign to reason.
Now I am not a liberal, I regard myself as a conservative, and I want to conserve all that is good and true and honourable and helpful. Treating women as second class citizens, designed simply as the helpers of men, seems vastly second class. I believe women and men are co-inheritors of the image and the likeness of God, and co-inheritors of the promises of God in Christ Jesus.
I think promoting a view that sees women in any less a light is demeaning to the people who hold those views and does not give glory to the God who called us out of nothing into his marvellous light. Exegesis of the Pauline corpus to denigrate women is to my mind just another playground excuse.
I trust I have made my position clear.
Now I am not a liberal, I regard myself as a conservative, and I want to conserve all that is good and true and honourable and helpful. Treating women as second class citizens, designed simply as the helpers of men, seems vastly second class. I believe women and men are co-inheritors of the image and the likeness of God, and co-inheritors of the promises of God in Christ Jesus.
I think promoting a view that sees women in any less a light is demeaning to the people who hold those views and does not give glory to the God who called us out of nothing into his marvellous light. Exegesis of the Pauline corpus to denigrate women is to my mind just another playground excuse.
I trust I have made my position clear.
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HenryM
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Do you really think that having children and being a nurturer is relegation? Relegation means to "consign or dismiss to an inferior rank or position". I don't know if anybody said that "women are only made to have children", as you have suggested, but God certainly puts baby for 9 months in woman's belly, while man is involved for couple of minutes. (To avoid nitpicking, I don't mean man is not involved in any way, but that he is not directly physically involved and connected to baby as intense as woman is.) God is telling you something. Is He relegating or blessing you?
This is kind of a thread-stopper right there. What else is there to write about here when we have such position voiced.
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