Are instruments in worship allowed?

LovebirdsFlying · Jan 14, 2017

timothygrae said:
What's wrong with rock concerts?

Kiterius said:
Nothing necessarily - but they aren't Christian worship services.

Kiterius said:
Christian rock music can certainly be used in worship.

Alithis said:
Please tell me your being blithe

Don't know for sure, but I think blitheness may be the intent.

Rock music isn't bad music in itself. Some people believe there is a "devil's chord" involved, and all that, but I don't. And I can see a place for music of all styles in worship. You need to speak the language of the person you're trying to win for the Lord. Rock music appeals to rock fans, and the lyrics will get them thinking about Him. (I wanted to say something about "Jesus is the true Rock" there, but I thought it would be too hokey of a pun.)

My own preference is for Southern Gospel music, but then in the secular world I prefer country. The two styles are very similar and have a lot of overlap. I think there is a lot of tendency to style worship music after whatever secular music we prefer. Cutesy pop music with repetitious lyrics and a heavy, catchy beat leads to modern worship choruses that similarly repeat themselves into the ground.

Bottom line is that I don't want to come away from church feeling like I've been to a concert followed by a motivational speech. I want to come away from church feeling like I've been to church. For me, that means less flash and more substance. YMMV.

GirdYourLoins · Jan 14, 2017

Psalms 150:3-5. If the Bible tells us to worship Him with instruments there is no argument against it imo.

Kiterius · Jan 14, 2017

LovebirdsFlying said:
Don't know for sure, but I think blitheness may be the intent.

Rock music isn't bad music in itself. Some people believe there is a "devil's chord" involved, and all that, but I don't. And I can see a place for music of all styles in worship. You need to speak the language of the person you're trying to win for the Lord. Rock music appeals to rock fans, and the lyrics will get them thinking about Him. (I wanted to say something about "Jesus is the true Rock" there, but I thought it would be too hokey of a pun.)

My own preference is for Southern Gospel music, but then in the secular world I prefer country. The two styles are very similar and have a lot of overlap. I think there is a lot of tendency to style worship music after whatever secular music we prefer. Cutesy pop music with repetitious lyrics and a heavy, catchy beat leads to modern worship choruses that similarly repeat themselves into the ground.

Bottom line is that I don't want to come away from church feeling like I've been to a concert followed by a motivational speech. I want to come away from church feeling like I've been to church. For me, that means less flash and more substance. YMMV.

It isn't about the style of music used. It's about what some music teams do with whatever style of music they choose. The goal of a worship service should not be to entertain.

LovebirdsFlying · Jan 14, 2017

Kiterius said:
It isn't about the style of music used. It's about what some music teams do with whatever style of music they choose. The goal of a worship service should not be to entertain.

I certainly agree there.

GirdYourLoins · Jan 14, 2017

I have more of an issue with the type of worship that is popular across the world now. Its all about God doing stuff for us. The greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. Being thankful for God doing stuff for us does not do that, its praise for His actions. For me love is expressed in worship exalting Him for who He is, not just saying thank you. And dont get me started on people singing songs clearly written to speak to other people as if they are in the most intimate of heart felt worship or songs with lyrics so badly thought through that anyone new in the church would think you are worshiping your own soul or the church. Others seem to veer from singing to people, to singing to God or vice versa and are really confused.

Anguspure · Jan 14, 2017

HenryM said:
I was reading a debate about playing instruments in worship, and found it to be fascinating issue. What's fascinating is that there's an issue at all.

I'm going to present a case why I believe instruments are allowed in worship, as secondary to voice, per preference and executed gracefully. I'm interested to hear what others think.

First, Jesus gives us two commandments upon which all law hangs - to love our God and to love one another (Matthew 22:37-40). At the same time, we are not under the law but under grace (Romans 6:14). And really, can love be established by law? It's absurd to even think that. Love is established by God's love towards us and by us loving Him and each other, through the help of His Spirit. So we really are not under the law but grace.

Right here, at the beginning, we see that "musical instrument in worship" can't be a law issue. It has to be preference executed respectfully and humbly, while being secondary to voice since everybody can sing.

Also, we are not given laws for worship ritual. We are given worship principle - to worship in spirit and in truth (John 4:23). And really, since we are worshipping God who is in Heaven and not of this world, we are to worship with nonmaterialistic part of our being - our soul - the only part of us that's connected to God through His Spirit. That's why there are no hard rules for "material" side of worship. Further, when we remember that we are not under the law but grace, it gets even clearer that materialistic part of our worship only follows the principle of doing it in spirit and in truth under grace.

Does playing an instrument in glory to God, respectfully and humbly, breaks the principle of worshipping in spirit and truth? I don't see it.

So, even before we get to technical parts of the issue, the issue is solved - instruments are allowed. At least that seems to me. But let's get somewhat technical.

...continued below

Praise the Lord.
Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty heavens.
Praise him for his acts of power; praise him for his surpassing greatness.
Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet, praise him with the harp and lyre, praise him with timbrel and dancing, praise him with the strings and pipe, praise him with the clash of cymbals, praise him with resounding cymbals.
Let everything that has breath praise the Lord.
Praise the Lord. (Psalms 150)
Praise Him a bit like this:

Landon Caeli · Jan 14, 2017

Yes. Because God told us to use instruments... God told Adam and Eve NOT to eat the fruit.

...Pipes (organs) were suggested specifically, BTW.

Anguspure · Jan 14, 2017

Landon Caeli said:
Yes. Because God told us to use instruments... God told Adam and Eve NOT to eat the fruit.

...Pipes (organs) were suggested specifically, BTW.

Where does that leave the poor old out of season fig tree (Mark 11)?
Perhaps we should be looking at the fruit that the music we make, and listen to, is producing. If it produces fruit in keeping with the Spirit, and in agreement with Christ Jesus in the flesh, then all well and good.
But if not then perhaps its better if it is allowed to wither and die.

Hank77 · Jan 14, 2017

John Hyperspace said:
Okay please note that I'm only coming at this from the point of view of a "lawyer" who is all about "keep the rules!", who is under law, and, not under grace. I am merely taking the opposing side of the issue for discussion sake.

Given that; yes, this is the idea. We are commanded to sing; not to play instruments. If you play an instruments you are doing something not "of faith" since "faith comes by hearing" and since no one in the NT says "play musical instruments" then to do so is a violation of "faith" and whatsoever is not of "faith" is "sin". In the same sense we are allowed to read and talk about the old testament, but not worship according to what was done there.

That is not what "everything that is not of faith is sin" means.
Your whole argument is based on a incorrect understanding of what Paul said. Once again you are taking words out of their context. Try reading all of Romans 14.

Those who believe they should not worship God with musical instruments shouldn't do so because their conscience does not allow them to do so in faith. At the same time they should not judge those who do because those who do believe it is pleasing to God and their conscience, nor God's word, tells them they shouldn't, they are acting in faith. However, they should not judge those who don't.

Rom 14:4 Thou--who art thou that art judging another's domestic? to his own master he doth stand or fall; and he shall be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

Alithis · Jan 15, 2017

Anguspure said:
Praise the Lord.
Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty heavens.
Praise him for his acts of power; praise him for his surpassing greatness.
Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet, praise him with the harp and lyre, praise him with timbrel and dancing, praise him with the strings and pipe, praise him with the clash of cymbals, praise him with resounding cymbals.
Let everything that has breath praise the Lord.
Praise the Lord. (Psalms 150)
Praise Him a bit like this:

my honest reaction .. it sounds like its mocking .(the song in the video clip i mean )

timothygrae · Jan 15, 2017

Kiterius said:
It isn't about the style of music used. It's about what some music teams do with whatever style of music they choose. The goal of a worship service should not be to entertain.

I understand your point, whereby the goal is to worship God, however can't worshipping God be entertaining? I'm not suggesting you're saying otherwise, but I am saying that you are judging these worship leaders for their motives. Worship comes from the heart, and Scripture teaches that only God can judge the heart of a person. I'm not totally clear what you are suggesting/referring to? Please give me some clarity so I can properly comment, or agree, perhaps.

Hank77 · Jan 15, 2017

timothygrae said:
Psalm 150:3-5 says, "Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet, praise him with the harp and lyre, praise him with timbrel and dancing and pipe, praise him with the clash of cymbals, praise him with resounding cymbals." So clearly instruments were permitted, even encouraged, in Old Testament times.

However, the argument against instruments stems from the understanding that the New Testament, in introducing a new covenant, does not speak of using instruments. Personally if the Bible doesn't speak against it, or any other issue, then I think that means it's ok, so long as it fits with other Biblical direction, that is, that it is God-honouring, and loving towards your neighbour (but then, if it were contradictory to these, that would be speaking against it, wouldn't it?). However this question was likely raised by someone who is of the persuasion that God instructs, and if He has not specifically done so, it should be avoided. A sound principle, which I won't hazard to argue against, though I will say on this issue it is rather non-applicable.

Here's why: this question is built upon the assumption that music is how worship is achieved. Consider Romans 12:1, "I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship." Worship is anything you do in this life for the glory of God. Presenting yourself as a living sacrifice is a metaphorical representation of how we commit our lives to God; we give up our bodily desires FOR God. So in any circumstance we do something that is not for man's own glory, we are worshipping God. So titheing is worship. Giving to Opportunity shops is worship. Prayer is worship. Reading the Bible is worship. Any time we demonstrate submission to God, we are worshipping Him. We can sing to God in worship, we can play instruments to God in worship. If we do these things in reverance. So music is most certainly something that CAN be used for worship, but it is not what worship is. Worship occurs within the heart, and whether you use an instrument to express that heart state seems irrelevant to me.

Music is also a great means of evangelism (which is commanded unto us in the Great Commission in Matthew 28) as it speaks to a culture, it's engaging, and is scientifically demonstrated to be the only activity which stimulates every area of the brain, hence why it can both provoke and express such strong emotional reactions. So to be able to harnass that for God is truly extraordinary.

Basically, what this issue comes down to is the heart behind it, as it is with everything we do on this Earth.

And I think that means that anything that is done in the way and with the purpose you have described, it is 'of faith'.

Anguspure · Jan 15, 2017

Alithis said:
my honest reaction .. it sounds like its mocking .(the song in the video clip i mean )

TBH I'm not sure if it's my favorite style either. But the point is, perhaps, what these guys have in their hearts and the fruit that is borne from their lives and the live of those who use this stuff as an instrument of praise.

DoubtfulSalvation · Jan 15, 2017

I had a co worker about 10 years ago and I forget what denomination she was, but she had a pamphlet that said that Music was only first introduced into worship in 666 ad. I chuckled at the time and personally thought it was a little ridiculous and unfounded. I really don't see why God would be upset with it to be honest.

I have heard the arguments that certain types of Music can't be used because they are usually associated with bad worldly things. If we use that logic we wouldn't even use the internet to spread the gospel.

Plus, I think that more problems are created by the hot debates that spill over on the internet into real life than any one particular music used to worship God. But, who knows. That's my two cents.

buzuxi02 · Jan 15, 2017

Paul Yohannan said:
The Greek Orthodox of Ionia have organs.

I think only one Church in the Island of Cephalonia has an organ. Orthodox christianity never adopted instruments because the world of the pagan roman empire used musical instruments to excite the passions of the flesh, hence liturgical music remained monotonic.
This is why christians never using them in the NT (see Hebrews 13.15, Col 3.16, Eph 5. 19)
As the center of Judaism moved away from Palestine into the gentile world after the destruction of Jerusalem they too adapted a capella, this actually created a revival in Judaic liturgical music with the advent of the cantor.

Paul Yohannan · Jan 15, 2017

buzuxi02 said:
Orthodoxy never used instruments

Even setting aside the regional use of organs, this argument makes no sense due to the massive emphases on bells within Orthodoxy. Campanology is incredibly important, and our bells are tuned differently vs. Latin bells, and also there are little bells on the thuribles, et cetera. Bells are percussion instruments.

Also, monotony doesn't mean what you think it means I fear; the antiphonal music of Byzantine Chant is not monotonous, and indeed, St. Ambrose of Milan imported it into his church for pastoral reasons, the old Latin Rite having used actual monotony (this was also historically how they did a Low Mass).

There is also a very disagreeable tendency on the part of some to bash the post-Nikonian music in the Russian Orthodox Church and other Slavonic churches as somehow being less than optimally Orthodox owing to known Venetian influences such as four-part harmony.

buzuxi02 · Jan 15, 2017

GreekOrthodox said:
Darned Latins! I grew up Missouri Synod Lutheran and love good organ music. However, I have found most church organists simply play way way too slowly and the Greeks are among the worst of the lot. Our organist makes Christos Anesti a dirge... This is the proper speed:

Not only do I think organs sound awful, I wish we can disband thechoirs. Give me 2 or 3 good chanters, let one be the Ison and I'm in heaven.

Paul Yohannan · Jan 15, 2017

buzuxi02 said:
Not only do I think organs sound awful, I wish we can disband thechoirs. Give me 2 or 3 good chanters, let one be the Ison and I'm in heaven.

You might consider a vocation at Meteora. They require more monastics and at the same time lack enough to have any more than two or three cantors at the still-operational monasteries, unlike the vast forces available on Mount Athos.

Paul Yohannan · Jan 15, 2017

@Archivist

You might note this thread as an interesting example of the Orthodox phrenomena. Not only can we not innovate (which is good in that it means there will never be a Praise and Worship band in the Orthodox Church), but our main internal trajectory is retrograde.

Thus, the only permitted changes are the reversions of innovations.

prodromos · Jan 15, 2017

Paul Yohannan said:
Even setting aside the regional use of organs, this argument makes no sense due to the massive emphases on bells within Orthodoxy.

The context is musical instruments accompanying the singing. Bells are never used as a musical accompaniment.

Are instruments in worship allowed?

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